Five Minute Favors | Adam Grant Interview

0:00When it comes to what your family eats and drinks, you know your choices matter. You're the expert because you know what fits your life. And getting it right starts with good information. That's why America's beverage companies are sharing more information about our ingredients at GoodToKnowFacts.org. No spin, no judgments, just the facts straight from the experts for more than 140 beverage ingredients. Visit GoodToKnowFacts.org. What I think works much better is stories. We reveal the culture of an organization through the stories that we tell. And the kinds of stories that I like to get are the stories about, can you tell me about something that happened in your organization that would not happen anywhere else?

0:46And what that does is it draws people's attention to what's really unique about the place they work. And then you collect a bunch of those stories and you try to figure out what are the common themes. And when you look at these stories, you start to realize, you know what, the particulars of each organization are often idiosyncratic. But the fundamental questions people have about culture are, you know, they're somewhat universal when it comes to what humans want in a place. And I think when you collect enough of these stories, you can start to hone in on, okay, what are the common themes I'm hearing?

1:17Is this the kind of place where I can both express my values and grow and contribute in a meaningful way?

1:31Welcome to the Art of Charm podcast, where we break down the science of powerful communication and winning mindsets so you have the cheat code to succeed with people. Every episode is jam-packed with actionable steps to unlock the hidden superpowers inside of you. Level up with us each week by listening to interviews with the best in business, psychology, and relationships. We distill thousands of hours of research in the most effective tools and the latest science so you can start winning today. Let's face it, in order to be seen and heard, your communication needs to cut through the noise, and we're going to show you how.

2:03I'm AJ, successfully recovered introvert, entrepreneur, and self-development junkie. And I'm Johnny Zubak, former touring musician, promoter, rock and roller, and co-founder here at The Art of Charm. And for the last 15 years, we've trained thousands of top performers and teams from every background. We have dedicated our lives to teaching men and women all they need to know about communication, networking, and relationships. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary. Today, we're going to break down networking in this environment. How do we network effectively online, as well as what Adam Grant has to say about his fantastic book, Give and Take, since that book was published.

2:46So we're going to hop right to it. Adam is a psychologist and author specializing in organizational psychology, and he's the author of one of our favorite books of all time, Give and Take, A Revolutionary Approach to Success. We're going to be discussing that book and what's changed since it was published today. Adam is a professor at the Wharton School of Business at UPenn, where he also has received his tenure at the age of 28. He's the host of Work Life Podcast, and this is his third time on our show. What can we do to attempt to further and advance our career and grow our network? Let's see.

3:22When I think about this, I always think of Adam Rifkin. Adam's one of the stars in my first book, Give and Take. And Adam is one of the most generous givers I know. He's also a remarkably good networker. He was named Fortune's best networker some years ago when he had more connections to powerful people than anyone on LinkedIn, including the CEO himself. which is not bad. And, you know, when I asked Adam how he met these people, he said, well, it's really simple. I've just spent my whole career and most of my life doing five minute favors. I thought this was such a simple and actionable idea that, you know, you don't have to be Mother Teresa or Gandhi to do something for someone else that you can just micro loan your time, your energy, your skills, or your connections to other people for a few minutes a day.

4:09And I think that's one of the most powerful ways to build relationships. So, you know, Adam's advice is you do a few five minute favors every day. And over time you feel more connected. You're able to add more value to other people's lives and you end up building new relationships in the process. Many of those people then will go on to pay it forward because they feel a sense of gratitude and they want to try to model the way of being in the world that you've just introduced to them or maybe reinforce for them. And I think that I might just edit a little bit and say, my read of some of the evidence is we might be better off instead of doing a few five-minute favors every day, picking one day a week as our five-minute favor day or as our generosity day.

4:52There are experiments with people doing random acts of kindness by Sonia Luber-Mirsky and her colleagues, and then people helping each other randomly in the workplace by Ryan Duffy and his colleagues where they essentially show the same thing, that people who do one random act of kindness or one act of helping a day, it has no effect whatsoever on their mood or their energy. It might help other people, but it's useless for you. And in contrast, when people pick Thursday and say, I'm going to stack up all five of those acts of generosity in one day, they get a significant and sustainable increase in their energy and happiness.

5:27and that seems to be because they're able to feel like they made a difference that day as opposed to it being a drop in the bucket. It may also be because they're more focused and that's less of a distraction in that giving day, but I think that's something we could all do to continue deepening and broadening our networks. I love that because for me, Thursdays, I'm dragging already, so I could use that little burst of energy. Generosity day. I'm so glad. Tried at your own risk. I'm so glad we got to talk about Give and Take. It's seriously one of Johnny and my favorite books of all time. We recommend it to all of our bootcamp participants.

6:05And really, it's changed the way that I view giving. I used to consider myself a matcher and definitely felt that I was always sort of guarding my time and constantly calculating how much I got out of what I was getting and, of course, can become unnerving. And then to see that science behind, you know what, just the five minute favor, doing it consistently as a habit and giving without having to trace and track everyone's return on that giving that you're doing. I found that my anxiety wane tremendously. And I certainly felt like I was making a greater impact than trying to keep score. But many of us are struggling in breaking out of that match or mindset, especially when we see those takers around us having their careers advanced and moving faster than we are.

6:53Yeah, this is the story of so many people's lives. Well, AJ, I'm honored that it's been relevant to your life. I'm glad it sounds like it hasn't totally ruined it yet. It has not. I can add that as a testimonial. It has not ruined my life. Good. That's encouraging. That's my primary goal. First do no harm. I think that there are lots of ways that people end up getting ahead when they're selfish. My read of the evidence is that happens, especially in workplaces where individual performance metrics dominate and the way that you succeed is by being better than everyone else. Personally, I prefer not to work in an organization that operates that way, right?

7:34And if you join a culture where people's contributions to others are valued as much as their individual achievements, then you see really quickly that takers tend to fall and givers rise very quickly. One of the things I wish I'd covered in Give and Take was a meta-analysis, a giant study of studies with over 50 ,000 employees across industries. And the finding is that how much time you spend helping other people and trying to contribute to the organization above and beyond your individual job description, that has as much impact on your performance reviews and your promotion rate as how well you do your actual tasks themselves.

8:14And so what that says to me is actually in most workplaces, leaders and managers don't just want the individual superstar. They want the person who makes the team better, who goes above and beyond for the organization to try to advance the mission. And I think the real problem is there are a lot of takers who are good fakers and who end up, you know, kind of kissing up and kicking down. When that happens, I think you have a few choices. And I'm not going to say you shouldn't be a matcher when dealing with takers, right? If somebody has a history or a reputation of selfish behavior, you probably do want to be much more, I would say, you basically want to follow the law of reciprocity and say, look, you know, I'm going to help you if you pay it back or pay it forward.

8:55But I think there are actually ways to reform takers, which might be fun to talk about. I'm curious as you guys have dealt with selfish people, how have you thought about getting them to maybe think about being more generous? When we're doing it in class and inevitably, there's always a few people who are afraid of being taken advantage of. Oh, if I'm a giver that I'm going to get taken advantage of. And that usually stems from in the past where they felt they had been taken advantage of. And for me, If you ask that question, then there are two things going on. A, you have not learned how to build boundaries.

9:31So those boundaries, they're murky. And so you do get taken advantage of because you're unable to say no, because you don't know when to say no. And number two is the value that you hold for yourself. And what I had seen, and I love your book so much, is that without cultivating, a feeling of value for yourself, then of course, you're going to feel as if everyone's there to take from you because you haven't built up the value that you would want to protect with boundaries. And that takes time. And we've put together in our classes, ways of building that value for yourself, which is acting in a manner that is consistent with the values that you hold for yourself.

10:19And every day that you're able to do that, the value that you have for yourself builds and you continue to fill that in while you're being consistent and engaging in those values. And two, do you get to a point where you now hold that value for yourself and you certainly wouldn't want to be, have that taken advantage of. So now you're comfortable in building those boundaries because you've seen the work that you've put in to get to that position. Yeah, and I would add to that, you know, the way to reform takers happens through norms. And the group has to participate in the norm for the taker to stand out for the wrong reasons.

10:59The reason you're seeing takers get ahead is because no norms have been set. So they've been allowed to set the norm or set the frame for behavior. So for example, if you have a taker in your midst who's constantly taking credit and just blasting to management how much they've added to the project and everyone else in the project feels like, well, wait a second, I had a contribution. What's going on here? The way to reframe that is to allow the taker to have credit, but then talk about how them taking that action benefited everyone else on the team and made them more productive. And when you set that norm enough with multiple examples where you're never just only spotlighting the person who had the credit, you're spotlighting all of the impact that that credit had.

11:43So it's spread around the team. Then you are working to create a norm where the taker isn't setting the frame and the taker isn't taking advantage of the fact that everyone else is just being a little humble and unwilling to speak up. And I find time and time again, especially early on in our career, we're not comfortable setting norms. We're not comfortable with setting those boundaries. So the takers quickly advance. And then as you get to the upper levels of your career, you realize that that flips and the takers can't actually demonstrate their value in a meaningful way. It just looks like they're stealing credit.

12:17So the best leaders are the ones who know how to give others credit. They're not the ones who are just blasting from the rooftops their credit. But a lot of times early in our career, we see the taker and we let them set the frame and we back off. And that's really the worst thing you can do because it's just allowing the taker to continue to take advantage of people and highlight themselves first. That really resonates. I think it's something that we often catch when it's too late and the norms have already been set to be much more competitive or cutthroat. And that's gotten me wondering, well, what can we do to hit the reset button?

12:51And probably the best example I've seen of this is in a financial services company a few years back, this woman named Kathy got a big promotion. And she was told that she was going to co-lead a new team with a guy named Colin. And four different people came up to Kathy and said, do not trust this guy, Colin. He's going to stab you in the back. He's going to steal credit for your ideas. Huge taker, watch out. And Kathy has this opportunity when she sits down with him to figure out, okay, what is our working relationship going to be like? And what kind of culture are we going to build in our team?

13:23And she does something that I think very few of us have had the courage to do. but probably a lot more of us could do. She says, hey, Colin, I understand we're going to be leading this new team together. Just wanted to let you know, this is what I've heard about you. And she shares all the reputational feedback. Colin's response is priceless. I don't know who you've been talking to, but clearly all these people are jealous of me. Thank you, Colin, for confirming your taker status. Yep. Right. But Kathy's right on point. She's like, you know, Colin, honestly, I don't know you. We haven't worked together before.

13:57You know, I hope it's not true though, because I don't work well with people who operate that way. And if that's who you are, you are not gonna like working with me. And for the next year and a half, Colin changes his stripes. He shares credit. He volunteers for unpopular projects. He mentors junior people. And I think what Kathy did was she made his reputation visible to him. And then she invited him to earn a new one. And this to me is one of the most powerful things about working with takers. if you can figure out what their goals are, then their behavior is actually pretty predictable. And all you need to do is help them recognize that the power or success or wealth that they're trying to accumulate, that might be jeopardized by being and being known as selfish.

14:41And so there's a better path. Now, the sad part of the story is Colin changed teams a year and a half later and he went right back to his old take-her-ways when Kathy wasn't holding him accountable anymore. But I think an example like that tracks with some of the evidence I've read that takers do not, in most cases, want to be outed as takers. And if you can let them know that their reputation is steering in a more selfish direction, that's often the beginning of an incentive for them to try to change.

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16:19You'll discover the three pillars of social capital, your network, your knowledge, and your emotional support, and learn how to cultivate and grow each one strategically. We'll even show you how to build a social sales funnel to expand your network with high-quality connections. Are you ready to level up your career and build relationships that matter? Apply for the X Factor Accelerator today and let's unlock your true potential. Head over to unlockyourxfactor.com and apply. Yeah, when their behavior isn't seen in a negative light by anyone openly, then they're going to continue acting that way because it tends to be rewarded.

16:57You know, we've had takers in our midst as a company. And one of the first things we did was start meetings off expressing gratitude for other people on the team. When you rob the taker of their stage to crow about their own advancements and take up all of the credit for the rest of the team, and instead you focus communication on how has someone else helped you? How has someone else guided you? How did someone else kill it in their job? You take away that bully pulpit that a lot of takers use to their advantage. Unfortunately, what we find in our clients is they're not only givers, but they tend to be really humble.

17:34And what ends up happening is they don't have good ways to communicate their value to management. And unfortunately, management has way too many concerns to think clearly about all the different pieces that everyone is contributing to the team. And unless you are constantly presenting the value that you add, a lot of times, especially in a bigger environment, you are going to get passed over for promotion when you are deserving of it. because the fact that you're constantly doing the five minute favors for others, not looking at all to take any of the credit, and in fact, downplaying when you are given compliments and saying, oh, it wasn't that big of a deal or it was no split off my back, that leads you to a position when it comes for performance review where management doesn't see you as being the person that builds the team up, does all the behind the scenes stuff that makes givers so fantastic.

18:28What is your advice for those of us in our career who are giving but can't really explain or demonstrate our value when it matters or counts? Well, I think you have a few options. The first one is to recognize the value of having some matchers looking out for you. So I found over and over again when I study people's motivations and values across industries and across cultures too, that very few people on the far extreme of giving or taking, most people by default, especially in a new professional interaction, they prefer this matching style of, you know, I'll do something for you if you do something for me.

19:04And what's great about matchers then is they really believe in fairness and justice. It bothers them at their core if they see a taker getting away with selfish behavior. And they're also really upset if givers are going unrewarded for their generosity. And, you know, for a while I thought that we basically wanted only givers in, you know, in a workplace. because then if everyone's generous, we can build a culture with the most effective norms of helping and where people really put the team and the mission first as opposed to just their individual self-interest. But I've had to rethink that because if you have no matchers in the system, it's much easier for takers to kind of sneak in and take advantage of the givers.

19:46I think you may want to build a protective shield of matchers around you. That would be my first tip. Yeah, so building allies. And I think a lot of us, especially early on in our career, are looking for mentors. So we tend to look at people who are above us in the organizational structure. And we're like, okay, I want to be mentored by this person. I look up to this person. And we don't spend enough time building allies with our team members. And certainly identifying matchers and building alliances with them, if you tend to fall on the giver side of the spectrum, it sounds like they're the ones who are going to be able to call the balls and strikes.

20:24And when that performance review comes around, actually give the truth to management when they're looking at who needs to move ahead and who maybe is taking too much of the credit. That tracks for me. And I think one thing that requires of a lot of givers is to stop judging matchers. I've had this reaction myself and I know I'm not alone. When, you know, when somebody, I actually, I had this happen with a colleague of mine where I asked him for some feedback on a project I was working on. And he came back to me a couple days later with exceptionally thorough and helpful feedback and then said, here's the project I've been working on.

21:03You owe me feedback in three days. I was so offended by that because all of a sudden I felt like he didn't care about me. This was just a transaction. And now I had to repay my debt. it kind of undermined the relationship. I've changed my stance on that over time. I realized, you know what, the fact that this guy holds other people accountable for doing their share is exactly what givers need. And so, you know, instead of having this knee jerk reaction of, you know, what's wrong with you? Why are you so transactional? You know, it should be no strings attached to be able to say, you know what, there's a time and a place for people to keep score.

21:41Maybe you don't want to be that person in every interaction or in most of your relationships. But knowing that there's value in having those people around you, to me, that was a little bit eye-opening. Yeah, I certainly agree that having matchers around you and involved in your career is a fantastic way if you skew towards a giver who is humble and can't really speak up your own value for them to help advocate on your behalf. Yeah. And I guess that goes to the other the other point, which is you don't have to just think about it as advocating for yourself. I've taught negotiations for years and the evidence is overwhelming that for women, oftentimes there's a backlash when they're assertive in negotiations and they're well aware of this.

22:30And so the risk, the natural response is often to be modest and humble and caring and communal and ask for less. And of course that puts them at a huge disadvantage. And what the evidence says here is that if women are negotiating on behalf of others, if it's a colleague or a direct report or a mentee, that gender backlash and gap vanishes. And I think this applies to people who are givers, who are men too. You know, one of the things I've taught to, you know, to some of the more, especially the more agreeable givers that I've had in class is to say, you know what? If you find yourself walking in to negotiate a salary or a promotion or even just to make sure that your boss is aware of your work and you shy away from asking or even just claiming the credit that's owed to you, then you need to think about who else you're representing.

23:23It may be that you're role modeling for people more junior who struggle with this, and it's an opportunity to go and try it out and report back to them so that they can learn from your example. and maybe in a negotiation context that you're showing your boss, you know what, I negotiate as part of my job and I'm gonna try to approach this negotiation not only with generosity and concern for you, but also with high aspirations for my own goals, which is the way I'm gonna represent you when I'm negotiating on your behalf as part of the company. I think that very often when people are extremely humble, they're thinking too narrowly about the credit or the ask as something selfish when in fact it may benefit other people or it may be something that actually in the future clearly benefits their employer.

24:08Once again, when it comes to a place where you're constantly in fear of being taken advantage of, you're always going to see that in other people no matter what they're doing. And you're going to read things in that manner. Why I was mentioning earlier of it's so important to build your self-worth and reverse that. So you're looking for the good in everyone, but also at the same time, learning how people give value just because maybe you've gave a contact out, then you're looking for a contact that comes back. Well, perhaps a gift or a dinner or some time or like those, that reward, that value comes back in many different ways.

24:53Yeah. We were talking about this like love language. Exactly. And unfortunately, many of us in our communication style, we expect to receive in return what we're giving to others. So as a giver, you could see yourself getting frustrated or feeling taken advantage of if you're looking at it as, well, I gave this person my time and now they're not giving me their time back immediately. Or I gave this person a referral and they're not giving me back a referral. but just because you gave someone that value doesn't mean that they're going to in turn give you that value back exactly the same way. A lot of people give value to others in different ways and a five minute favor for one person might actually be an hour favor if they're not skilled or competent at what you're asking them to do.

25:41So I think we put so much expectation on others and I was talking to two of our clients recently at the end of the bootcamp, we have dinner and they were both consultants, different fields and actually different locations. One was based in the UK and one was based in New York. And they noticed this dynamic at work that if they went into the start of the project and told the client essentially, hey, in working with you, I want to do everything I can to get you promoted. So they set the frame at the start that I'm working to advocate for you, even though you work at a different company, And I'm going to make sure that your boss knows how well you worked with me.