How to Break the Patterns Holding You Back | Judy Ho

19:30Johnny:Yeah. And we see this in our clients in their social lives, withdrawing because of some negative response, whether on a date or from some peers. And all of a sudden it's like, well, I'm just shy, so I'm not going to talk. And it's like, well, you have a low self-concept of your social abilities. And then you see it in their career where it's like you get passed over, you get a negative performance review. And all of a sudden, instead of leaning in and trying to work on those areas, you just withdraw because you don't want to keep getting the negative feedback. Yeah. Well, yeah, it just goes with I've always been bad at that.

20:00This proves I've always been bad with that. So now I'm just going to try to avoid that.

20:04Johnny:And here's the frustrating part. And as a PhD, you know this. If you don't collect enough data points, it's not relevant. Your observation is not relevant. And that's why we love in the week long boot camp for our clients who have gotten some negative feedback in an area of their life and their social skills to go out the entire week and start getting some positive experience and collect new data points, positive data points. And all of a sudden they're like, man, why wasn't I doing this before? This is so much easier than I thought it would be because we hold on to the negative data point. Yes.

20:35Selective memory too. You only remember that once or twice where you blew it or you didn't have a good social situation. And then you don't remember all of the other times where actually you did get positive feedback because your mind is so set on that low self-concept that you just keep only remembering the things that basically give you that sort of reinforcement of that particular idea. And I recently have worked with a number of patients who they'll come to me and they'll say, I just have poor social skills. I don't know. Maybe I'm on the autism spectrum. And they almost wear it with a badge of honor.

21:06Like, you know, I'm a tech guy. Like we're all kind of, I'm like, you know what? Let's try to get some evidence. And so I'm a neuropsychologist. So we actually have tests that look at their social perception. Like, do you read emotions correctly? Like how do you perceive social situations and tone? And they'll score in the 95th percentile. And I'll say, wait, let's line that up with your belief about yourself that you might be on the autism spectrum. And yet on social skills testing, scientific testing, you're in the top five percentile compared to your peers. So what do you think about that? And they're just, their minds are just blown because all their life, they've just thought I'm this shy, awkward person.

21:42That's why I haven't been dating. That's why I can't move forward in my job, even though I have the skill sets, because I'm just not that guy. It's like, but you are that guy. You can be that guy. I think Brene Brown calls it like getting rid of supposed tos where you can unhook yourself to this idea of what you're supposed to be like. And we certainly see it. It's now, well, I'm introverted. So you don't even want to try. Well, no, because I'm introverted. It's like, why is everyone just beating themselves up with these? So attached to labels, right? And we use those labels as excuses to not move forward.

22:15Johnny:And unfortunately, more and more labels are being thrown around. We're seeing these labels everywhere. Social media and going back to what you said earlier, this comparison that we're struggling with, it's amplified every time we open our device. You know, you go on social media and I can compare myself with someone in Australia that I've never met. And all of a sudden start self-sabotaging. Yes. And of course, people sometimes forget that other people's social media feeds are most often their highlight reels. No one is crafting a post around when they accidentally spilled coffee on their notebook.

22:46Exactly. Living in LA, we've seen food to get

22:49Johnny:cold with all the photos being taken at the table. And oh, no, hold on. Wait, we can't leave. Nope. Another shot. So when we're comparing ourselves to others highlight reel, of course, we're going to start self-sabotaging. Now, the book breaks down six steps. Let's talk about the first one. And this is what Johnny was touching on, these cognitive distortions, identifying the triggers. Yeah. So the first step is identifying your self-sabotage triggers. And really, it's all about finding out what in your thoughts is creating the type of pattern that then leads you to go down the self-sabotaging action over and over again.

23:25And I talk about several different types of triggers because we all have patterns once we actually start to notice our thoughts. And we talked about some of them already. The labeling, the comparisons. I have different names for these, but black and white thinking is a big one. We talked about that earlier today where people make one little misstep. They had one muffin. Big deal. And forget it. I'm just going to have a binge fest all weekend as opposed to, you know what? Put down the muffin. You don't have to finish it, right? And let's just restart. Let's restart. They can't do it, right? So the black and white thinking of like all good or all bad, there can't be any in between.

23:56It makes it really hard to get back on track once you've made a misstep, which we all do. There's also catastrophizing. So one little thing goes wrong, everything's going to go wrong. And then that really does cause people to withdraw because you're thinking in your head. I don't want to see that catastrophe But that catastrophe hasn't even happened or maybe won't ever happen The shoulds that's a big one. I always tell my clients stop shitting all over yourself because that's what people do I should have done this. I should have done that. I should be a better mother. I should be a better boyfriend I should be I should be I should be and these rules are just made up out of the ether I mean, yes, maybe from their past experiences, but who says that?

24:33you have to do those things. But those rules can really bind people into a certain label, again, of how bad they are, how deficient they are. And it costs a lot of anxiety for people. AJ, what's the one thing every adult wishes they could get back from being a kid? Easy. Freedom. No obligations. No one taking your money every month for something you barely use. Mint Mobile just made that real. All plans,$15 a month right now. Even unlimited. I couldn't believe how easy it was.

25:03Johnny:Bring your own phone, keep your number, sign up online in minutes. You're on the T-Mobile 5G network. We're talking high-speed data, unlimited talk, and text. The only thing that changes is how much you're paying. Choose three, six, or 12 months and kill the monthly bill for good. Big Wireless has been overcharging you for years. This is the move. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com slash charm. That's mintmobile.com slash charm. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash charm. That's it. There's no catch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12 months.

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26:26Web development, data, marketing, business ops, it's all there.

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27:08That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, Upwork.com.

27:13Johnny:Which is your biggest trigger? You know, I think for me, it's probably the shoulds. I think it's another one of those type A, high achieving people. I should have gotten more done today. You know, I feel guilty sometimes if I've been less productive on a day than I was hoping to in my head. It's hard. I mean, I still struggle with it. And I have to back up and say, you know what, like, it's okay. You know? Mine is personalization. Johnny knows this too. And it's one of those, we break it down in class. So you'd think I should be able to overcome it, but I still do it. This idea of I'm the focus of my own movie.

27:52Johnny:So everything happening around me is because of me. And all of a sudden you're in that cognitive distortion. It's hard to find your way out. What's yours, Johnny? When I was younger, it was certainly black and white thinking. I tell this story all the time. Which is why you always were black for our YouTube and live streamers. It was one of the reasons where I had my ex-girlfriend in my 20s. She was trying to argue with me about whatever it was. And she mentioned, she's like, life isn't black or white. You do this all the time. And I go, I do not. And she just opens the closet. And there was white shirts and black shirts.

28:24And I got so mad because, whoa, she just, that was checkmate. So I was like, I'm out of here. And I went to the mall and I bought a red shirt and I put it in the middle. And I was like, there. and it never wore it.

28:38Johnny:I was going to say.

28:41But I think it - It felt good at the time. They certainly change as well. I think I deal with a little bit of should now, but in my 20s, it was certainly black and white thinking. And there was always, yeah, those were definitely the two main to call with.

28:56Johnny:The big one we see in our classes too is discounting the positive. Yes. It's so easy to just, nope, that wasn't for me or no, that's not really positive. And we really have to dig and ask them, okay, but let's talk about the last time you were out. How many people did you talk to? How many people did you socialize with? Did you approach a stranger? No. Then this is a positive. There are tons of positives. You are discounting them. The other thing about it, and perhaps you can shed some light on this, we've seen that the smarter you are, the more intricate the rationalizations and the web of thinking gets.

29:31And I've certainly have argued with people who are trying to rationalize a cognitive distortion with another cognitive distortion. Yes. And I'm like, let's take this one away. That's cognitive distortion. Let's take this one. And now what do you have left? And they're like, they're just freaked out. It's so funny that it's caused a chain reaction sometimes. Oh, yeah. When somebody tries to get you to look at that distortion, they just give you another one. And so then it can just keep going from there. But you're right. And I think that people sometimes at discounting the positive is really huge.

30:03It's almost like, you know, I don't want to be a part of a club that would have me as a member. It's like anytime they actually get something, it's like, yeah, but everybody can do that. It's like, but can they? And also, were you able to do this a week ago? You weren't. So this is a big deal. And they almost take that away from themselves when they do something well. And that, again, just contributes to possibly lower self-concept overall, right? It's like that selective memory of this wasn't a big deal anyway.

30:27Johnny:And there are a number of cognitive distortions. Episode 704, if you are interested in this discussion, we go deep into them, the bad house guests. And when you start to recognize them, we can now start step two, which is deactivating these triggers. Yeah. So deactivating your triggers is huge because now that you know that these triggers are there, it's kind of scary. Like, oh, great. So my head is just filled with all these thoughts. We have on average 50 ,000 thought fragments in a day. Of course, we're not processing all of it, but it is still wreaking havoc on our emotional life and also then leading to certain behaviors.

31:00And so you have to deactivate them. You have to deactivate the triggers. And I talk about three different methods of deactivating them. One is to change them. So that is the classic cognitive behavioral therapy approach is to question them and then to try to change them. So really the questioning of it is just not thinking all of your thoughts are reality. It's so easy for us to do that. It's the way that language is constructed. The minute that we have a thought, we think it's either gonna occur or it has already occurred. And so it's really about routinely questioning it. Like what's the validity behind this thought?

31:32Let's play not so much pros and cons list, but evidence for and evidence against a particular thought. And really taking a look and trying to balance it out. Oftentimes people have cognitive distortions because it's maybe one-sided. And so one quick technique I ask people to do is to try to construct a new sentence with yes, dot, dot, dot, but, dot, dot, dot, right? So yes, I still haven't gotten to the promotion that I wanted, but I have gotten three amazing performance evaluations in a row, and I feel like I'm really ready to ask for that next step soon, right? It's like people don't sometimes recognize where they are in the journey, and they only think about one step of the way.

32:18Johnny:Yeah, the but is what they're discounting completely. They're unable to look at that. And I think another big part of this, and we talk a lot about this on the show, is just journaling. When you actually start to write down your thoughts, you process them. And then the best part is you get to flip back through your journal and see those thoughts three or four months ago. and you're like, what planet was AJ on? That is not reality at all. But we fuse our thoughts to our being and our emotions. And all of a sudden, they can start to wreak havoc on our emotional life. And it's really frustrating when you see these patterns in others and then you start to think, oh, I'm probably doing the pattern myself.

32:57Johnny:I just don't realize it. Takes some honesty, takes talking and communicating with people you trust as well. I think that what makes all this difficult is certainly when you're heroes or people that you look up to, their flaws, nor the work that they've done on themselves to get in the positions that they're in is shown. It's not romanticized. It just shows this amazing person who's done all this stuff and maybe their book or the biopic, or it's just all the highlights. If there is some downtime, they may show the person had a phase where they were maybe partying a bit too much or whatever, but it doesn't go through that work.

33:35And so for instance, and going through your book and I was reading all the exercise and I was like, Oh, how wonderful, how great. It's like, if they show the work that a lot of these people do of being reflective of mindfulness, meditation, writing, just getting their thoughts out so you could see what it had taken for them to get there. I think more people would do these things, but like, even for me, I'm reading through it and it's like, well, John Wayne would never do that. But I bet John Wayne was scribbling and writing his memoirs and looking at what his thoughts are. I mean, it's a very natural part of growth and it's just not shown enough.

34:13Right. And I think people sometimes think, oh, writing thoughts, oh, journaling. I'm sure you guys get that resistance to it. But it is so helpful because you actually put your thoughts on a page. They become external just in that process, right? When it's inside your head, it feels so amorphous. It feels like you can't tackle it. It's just like when I tell people, doesn't it always feel better when you put something down on a to-do list? It's scary because you're like, I have too many to-dos. But once you put it on a page, it actually does feel better. It feels like you can manage it. And then you can really look at it and decide what to do next.

34:46Johnny:And not be overwhelmed. Not be overwhelmed. That's the problem. When we're overwhelmed, we're ready and willing to self-sabotage. And we ask this question all the time in class. is there evidence that the thought is incorrect? Because we are so primed to find the truth behind our thoughts and rationalize that our thoughts are real. We very rarely go, could there be an alternate explanation for this? And Johnny, you have a classic example that I love from class about walking down the street and people laughing because I feel like we all can relate to this. Well, yeah. I mean, what I tell the guys is I use this scenario of you're walking down the street And let's just say that leading up to that hasn't been a very good week.

35:29Maybe you blew something to work and you're beating yourself up. Maybe you're a little bit under the weather. And when you woke up that morning, you realize you didn't wash clothes and you're trying to put something together that's not offensive. So you're not feeling very good about yourself. And now you're walking down the street and let's say you pass three people. And as you pass them, they just start laughing. Now, we know the whirlwind of thoughts that are going to pop up in that scenario. Yes. And we are geared to take the bad one for many different reasons. Certainly evolutionary reasons, as we talked about.

36:01But there's also people that the Dunning-Kruger effect, where people of high intelligence are going to write themselves on things they don't know about rather low. It's just an easier thing to do to take the bad one and work from there. and so many different reasons to be geared towards that and allowing people to think through that and realize, well, why can't you have chosen the good one? Or why did you make this about yourself, whether or not it was good or bad? Right. Yes. That personalization again, where, uh-oh, they must be laughing about me as opposed to, they were in mid-conversation before I walked up.

36:39Maybe it's just a continuation of that conversation and they're having a little joke and it's about them and it's not about me. But it is so easy to go there. And it's so easy for us to look for that confirming evidence because we don't like cognitive dissonance, right? As human beings, cognitive dissonance is just the worst thing ever. And so even when a belief is negative, we'd almost rather find the confirming evidence so that it's a consistent picture as opposed to, oh, wait a minute, maybe they're saying something wonderful about me For once, maybe not even the first time, but at least you're going to try to start recognizing that as a possibility.

37:14Johnny:Johnny, real talk. Upwork is the reason we've been able to grow the way we have. A hundred percent. Website, SEO, marketing consulting. We found specialists for all of it. The results blew us away. Here's the thing nobody tells you. The fastest growing businesses aren't doing more. They're delegating smarter. You don't have to hire full time to get world class help. Upwork lets you find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across over 125 categories. Web development, data, marketing, business ops, it's all there. You browse profiles, see their past work, and get matched fast. Business Plus gets you the top 1 % of talent with AI-powered shortlisting, finding your person in under six hours.

37:56Johnny:Contracts, payments, handled all in one place. You stay focused on the business. We've used it and it works. In fact, our most recent project, we did an SEO audit. We've had our website for almost 20 years and we had no idea how AI was searching our site. We worked with an Upwork specialist to get our results fast. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, Upwork.com. AJ, what's the one thing every adult wishes they could get back from being a kid? Easy. Freedom. No obligations. No one taking your money every month for something you barely use.

38:38Mint Mobile just made that real. All plans,$15 a month right now. Even unlimited. I couldn't believe how easy it was. Bring your own phone.

38:47Johnny:Keep your number. Sign up online in minutes. You're on the T-Mobile 5G network. We're talking high-speed data, unlimited talk, and text. The only thing that changes is how much you're paying. Choose three, six, or 12 months and kill the monthly bill for good. Big Wireless has been overcharging you for years. This is the move. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com slash charm. That's mintmobile.com slash charm. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash charm. That's it, there's no catch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months, $90 for six months, or$180 for 12 months, plan required.

39:26$15 per month equivalent, taxes and fees extra, Initial plan term only.

39:32Johnny:Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot. Capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. So the first strategy is question thoughts. And then the second strategy you talk about in the book is modify thoughts. So let's break that one down. So the modifying thoughts is to really try to get in there. And again, once you've examined the thoughts, and as you mentioned, you know, what's the evidence against, right? What's the evidence for? What's the evidence against? now that you have it in front of you, let's look at how we can actually change the thoughts.

40:02But, you know, in a way that feels meaningful. Sometimes people do these exercises and they're a very intellectual exercise. You know, they'll say, well, I feel like a loser today, but I guess I'm not a loser. I'm like, well, that's like a very lazy modifying the thoughts because I know you don't believe that. You did not just change it. You're not selling me. Yeah, you're not selling it to me and you're not selling it to yourself. So you have to be honest, you know, find a thought that you can get on board with that maybe isn't so grand sweeping, right? Going from I'm a loser, now I'm not, to, okay, let's just talk about what's going on today.

40:32Let's talk about this particular situation, break it down, and find a balanced way to look at the situation. And there's a really quick mnemonic that I utilize too with them, which is like the three Cs. So it's like catch it, check it, and then change it. So catch it, catch the thought, check the thought for both sides, and then change it. But in a way that you can at least get on board with it to some level of believability, right? So I tell them to do a believability rating. Like, what's the believability of this new thought? I mean, I'm not expecting it to be a 10 out of 10, but it's got to be at least like a five or a six out of 10 or else we just did that exercise in vain and it's not going to actually change your actions.

41:09Johnny:Yeah. Then it's those silly affirmations that we've seen on Saturday Night Live where I'm good enough, I'm strong enough, people like me that you're not going to buy into. It's not going to reinforce and certainly not changing the thought. And I think when, again, as Johnny was saying, with the Dunning-Kruger effect working, it's very easy for us to be like, but I don't know this. So I don't have evidence for this. So I can't make that grand of a sweeping change of this thought. But we have to just dig a little deeper and start observing things a little bit more. I think we're also, as you said, once we start to catch it, then we start to realize, okay, I am on autopilot.

41:45Johnny:My habits have set me up for this. So now I have to start really thinking in these moments where my habits are pushing me in one direction. And I know that I want to go in another direction to just slow down a little bit. And it's so easy for us to quickly rationalize, to find that response that fits our thoughts and our beliefs, and then move on. We want to move to the next task. We got to move to the next thing. And I think that a lot of times people don't realize that it is going to take some time for you to examine the thoughts and then to change them. In the beginning, it will be slow going because you're trying to work against this autopilot.

42:17So it's almost like putting things and manual. You're learning this new skill. But just like anything else, once you've learned the new skill, it becomes your new autopilot. So after that learning process, it's not going to feel so tedious every time. A lot of people think because it's in our mind, we could just flip a switch and now we've just changed our thinking. Unfortunately, you're undoing wiring that you have put together for years, decades. Yeah. Right. And so it takes a little bit of time. It takes a little time. And your brain knows how to outsmart you. Oh, yes. You can logic. I mean, your brain will just keep trying to solve the problem in its head.

42:55And that's why I think it is so important to put things on paper, check it with somebody, check it with a coach, check it with a friend. Because again, it's so, so easy to feel like you're being productive in your brain when you're ruminating on the same thing over and over. But really, you're just having a little logic battle with yourself, going from one distortion to the next distortion. I always get the question I get, well, how do I then know what's the truth or not? How do I know what's evidence? And I was like, could you use it in a court of law without being laughed out of the room? And they're like, no.

43:25I love that. Yeah. And it's like their whole face completely changes. That's hilarious. Because yeah, now think about that scenario. Are you going to go up and say that in front of a jury and not get laughed? It changes everything. Yeah. It's a great visual. I love that. I also tell people it should be something that somebody else could observe. So when they say, well, I have evidence, I have tons of evidence, It's like, okay, but could somebody who is in the room with us right now attest to that evidence? Like, could they actually visualize it themselves, see it in some way? They're like, oh.

43:56And then I had to like cross off a bunch that was on the list that supposedly was evidence for the thought, right?

44:02Johnny:Now, our favorite is diffusion. Mine too. And this one is a little bit trickier for some of us, but I think it's the most powerful. We talked about this with our guest, Stephen Hayes, but de-emphasizing the impact of these thoughts. So understanding that thoughts are just thoughts. Yes. And your number is startling, right? 50 ,000 thoughts buzzing around my head any given day. Why am I giving this one so much power, so much credence? Yes. Yes. I love, so I love ACT and I love Stephen Hayes. Really revolutionary technique. You know, I remember I've been classically trained in cognitive behavioral therapy.

44:38And when I was exposed to ACT for the first time, it was mind-blowing. I was like, whoa, wait, this is such a new way of thinking about how to deal with our thoughts, right? So instead of just checking them and modifying them, yes, there's going to be the day sometimes when you wake up and you're like, I know what thought I'm supposed to be modifying, but I just don't want to do it. I don't feel up to it today. I'm just in a bad mood. We've all been there and you can still let that thought live with you. But why do you have to let it affect how you feel and how you act for the day? So this concept of diffusing, not fusing with every thought or some specific thoughts is really about backing up, recognizing that a thought is just a mental event and nothing more.

45:19And the easiest way to access that is by labeling it, labeling it as such. So if you have a thought like, I'm never going to reach my goal, putting the clause in front of it that says, I'm having the thought that I'm never going to reach my goal. And all of a sudden it does take the wind out of the sails just a little bit. All of a sudden there's a little bit of distance between that really horrible original thought and now doing the diffusion practice and noticing that, oh, it's just the thing. I could just say it's a vegetable. It's a hamburger. I mean, it doesn't have to be me or explain me.

45:52Johnny:I love the exercise of if you were sitting next to the child version of yourself, right? Five-year-old AJ is sitting here and he's saying, I'm such a loser. How would you talk to him? How would you explain that thought. You wouldn't be like, yeah, you are and reinforce it. You're like, no, come on, AJ, look at all these other wins. And we tend to be patient with children, but we're not patient with ourselves. And that's why I like that mental exercise because it's like, oh, the thought is me saying it as a child. Well, yeah, I'm going to give myself a little bit more opportunity to improve than just write that thought into my being.

46:28I mean, our lives are so consumed with distraction. and I always make this joke like 30 years ago, 20 years ago, if you went to the bank, you got in line and you had to deal with yourself while you stood in line. But we don't even have those moments anymore if you're even at the bank. You'll get in line and you'll pull out your phone and you'll just start scrolling. I mean, it's distraction from the moment you're up to the moment you're asleep. So mindfulness is incredible. It's a tactic that it is and it works. We need to now find time in our lives on the daily to practice those things, to practice diffusion because we don't have the time to deal with ourselves as we used to.

47:16Right. And I think everything is so go, go, go all the time. People have multiple things that they're looking at. Even when you're watching the news, there's a ticker on the bottom that's moving and there's pop-ups in the corner. I mean, I don't even know what I'm doing. And then I look at people around me who are watching the news with me and they're on their phones the same time on CNN.com watching CNN. Like, I don't know what's going on, right? It feels so hectic all the time. And people who are somewhat impatient, people who, again, are very goal-oriented, they're like, I don't have time for mindfulness.

47:42It's like, but actually you're wasting tons of time by doing all of this distracting stuff and not getting anywhere. And mindfulness doesn't have to be a minute of sitting on a yoga mat, meditating in that particular way with your legs crossed. Mindfulness can just be taking a five-minute break and just noticing what's around you, putting everything away and just having a few bites of your meal without other things in front of you. I've been very busy with our social media lately. And the other day I was out on my normal weekly run and I got to the top of Runyon Canyon and I completely had a panic attack because I thought I lost my phone only that I had to sit there and like, wait, you're jogging, you're on the canyon.

48:24Everything's fine. It's at home. And I was just laughing about that. But even that, that hour that I have without my phone and the chemicals flying, it allows me to shift through so much stuff. And of course I don't have my earbuds and running on down Franklin Avenue because I'm going to get hit by a car. So there's nothing to do, but focus on myself and my mind for that hour, 15 minutes. I have a rule that if it's above 50, then I agree. There's no excuse enough to go, but I look forward to it every week because it's also, I know it's an opportunity for me to organize a few thoughts that I haven't had the proper opportunity to shift through.

49:05Johnny:And I love that point because meditation, mindfulness doesn't have to be on a mat, legs crossed chanting. It could be running. It could be eating your lunch. It is taking a moment to collect your thoughts and be present with them versus staring at the device, watching the traffic, every other distraction that's going on in our lives. You love your acronyms. So moving on to step three, we are reconfiguring ABC chains. So what are ABC chains first and how do we reconfigure them? So ABCs are a different type of ABCs. This is behavioral management ABC. So A stands for antecedent. This is any kind of thing that happens before the behavior.

49:42So any kind of triggers, or we've been focusing a lot on thoughts, but they could be other things. They could be other people. They could be certain memories. They could be a particular situation or surrounding and really understanding that there's so many different types of things that we should be looking for that lead us down a behavioral chain because the next thing that comes is the actual behavior. So that's the behavior you're trying to change. You know, whatever behavior that is getting in the way of you reaching your goals, whatever that self-sabotaging behavior is. We want to know all the things that can lead to it and their consequence.

50:13And people sometimes don't realize that the consequences are not necessarily what you think they are. Sometimes people think, well, duh, like, of course I don't want bad things to happen to me. But yes, there's also negative reinforcement, this idea of an avoidance of something uncomfortable. And my classic example, of course, is, you know, thinking about going to a party when you know you're not going to know anybody. And it just gets so anxiety provoking that you finally then call the host and you make up some bogus excuse. Oh, I got stomach poisoning, whatever, food poisoning. And they say, oh, I'm so sorry.

50:43And then you hang up and all that flood of relief that now you don't have to go to this party that is reinforcing for the next time. So the next time you have another big function, you know, you get to look forward to that relief when you do that self-sabotaging behavior.

50:56Johnny:There you go. Yeah. The flaking. Everybody's got one of those stories, I feel like. Well, and these cues, exactly that could be as simple as having your phone on the nightstand. So it's easier to surf the internet than it is to go to the gym. And when you start to understand that, well, hey, my phone being next to me is the cue. What if I put my gym shoes next to me? That's the first thing I see. Oh, well, I'm a lot more ready to go to the gym with my shoes on than a phone in my hand. So it's understanding the chain of events and trying to go upstream of that bad behavior to really knock it out.

51:29I always tell people, give yourself a break. It takes three to four weeks to get that habit to form. So if it's hard in the first one or two weeks, it should be.

51:37Johnny:Yeah, it's normal, right? We are fighting against the way we've conditioned ourselves for months, years, some of us even decades. And Johnny talks about this as well. It's the idea of stopping a moving train and getting it moving in the opposite direction. The train doesn't come to a dead stop. The train has a lot of momentum in the wrong direction. So we got to slow it down. and then in order to get it to go in the opposite direction, it's got to get some momentum and pick up some steam. Right. So just like that, when we're talking about behavior change, we have to slow down the bad behaviors.

52:09Johnny:Then we got to give some time for the new behaviors to pick up some momentum. But even with that, it doesn't take forever. And if you're patient and it starts to pick up its momentum, then it's something that you do, you look forward to, you're excited about, and you've done that. And that momentum, you can chain other good habits too. Oh, yeah. Once you start to realize, oh, if I'm moving in the right direction, all of a sudden I have the endorphins after the gym. Well, I'm excited to make myself a healthy lunch. Right. Totally. But if I feel like crap because I didn't go to the gym, then I'm more excited about frying something up for lunch.

52:41Johnny:Yeah. So it can be chained together. Now, step four, mental contrasting and implementation intentions. Okay, this is a mouthful. MCII is actually the combination of two techniques. The first one is mental contrasting. Now, visualization is obviously a really powerful tool. We love visualization. I'm a very visual learner. But if you're just visualizing your dreams, but not thinking about the specific obstacles that might get in the way, then that visualization is empty. Sometimes I'll have clients come to me and they'll say, I've been doing vision boarding for years. And at the end of the year, I'm always so depressed.

53:16I'm like, bring me one of your vision boards. I want to see what's on this thing. And so I remember one of my recent clients came with this vision board and it was like, you know, like a cutout picture of a$5 million home, picture of like some perfect bride and groom in a magazine. It was like, I didn't have any of these things. It's like, okay, but how were you going to get to the$5 million house in 10 months? And how were you going to get to that wedding in 10 months? Did you have the specific steps in between? Did you think about the obstacles that might be getting in the way? And that's the mental contrasting.

53:46So not only do you picture the big rosy thing that you want at the end of the rainbow, but you're also picturing And what is it in my current life right now that's sort of holding me back or stopping me from moving on to the next step up that ladder? And once you do that, of course, then you can start to implement things that can really help you to deal with those obstacles, to actually address the specific obstacles rather than there's just this big dream that you're supposed to get to later. There's a lot of research that shows that when people give themselves a big lofty goal, but they don't think about the in-between steps, they basically don't reach it.

54:22But if you work at the specific in-between steps, that's how you get to the big goals. And so I think it's kind of a take on that. So that's the mental contrasting portion.

54:30Johnny:It creates motivation. The mental contrasting creates motivation. It gets you pumped up for that event. It really gets you excited and it makes the picture much more vivid, right? Instead of just this big pie in the sky, it now becomes something that you can actually visualize in front of you. Something that you can actually do today, something that you can move towards in this moment. And these implementation intentions. Implementation intentions, again, a mouthful to say something really simple, which is then to create a series of if-thens from your mental contrasting exercise. So now that you know what the obstacles are, create the if-thens related to each of those obstacles.

55:07If you've identified an obstacle, for example, you're trying to get to a healthier pattern of eating and okay, you've realized that, okay, something that's getting in the way is every night I come home from work, I'm spent. I just start picking up whatever's in my pantry. And there's oftentimes lots of really bad things in my pantry. So the if then is really kind of to create the setup so that when you get to that triggering moment, you already have a prescription plan. It's like following a recipe. So if I come home and I'm tempted to reach for the chips, then what? Then what are you going to do?

55:40And the art of replacement behavior is just to actually find a behavior that can replace the bad one as opposed to something you can do in conjunction with a bad behavior. So sometimes people will say, well, then I'll just watch Netflix. I'm like, no, but that's when most people eat bad snacks and then forget because they're so mindless about it. They're watching this TV show and all of a sudden the whole bag of chips is gone. So it's really about something that would actually get in the way of the bad snacking. So what would that be? You know, it has to be something that is going to keep you occupied in a way that you can't be snacking at the same time.

56:09Johnny:I know for myself, when it comes to nutrition, it's empty fridge equals Postmates. And so for me, it was like, okay, I have to work backwards from that. Okay, this is simple. Sunday, I'll throw something on Netflix in the background and I will meal prep and I will buy the ingredients on Saturday so that I have Sunday all laid out and now my meals are mapped. And when you start to look at your life and meal prep is a classic example, when you start to look at your life in all these different areas of like, okay, what are the potential roadblocks? What have I done in the past that's going to lead me astray?

56:45Johnny:Okay, now let's start thinking about building in the if-thens. If this happens, well, what are my options? And I've been doing a lot of work with some one-on-one clients and we're talking a lot about six-month goals. And it's so easy to articulate the goal. And I think everyone gets so fired up about that. And then I go, okay, well, what are the potential roadblocks? Oh, yeah. Yes. Guess what? This is why this has been your goal for the last 12 months because you have not thought about the roadblocks and thought about what you're going to do when those arise. Yes. And it's so important to do it in advance.

57:20Sometimes people will say, okay, if then, simple enough. So then when that happens, I'll make the if end of my head. No, because at that point, the triggering thoughts are already there. All those antecedents that lead you down that self-sabotaging track are in place and happening, it's too hard then to make your if-dens. You've got to make them in advance. You've got to do the mental contrasting at a time when generally it's sort of like your mindful time. Maybe it's a morning meditation that you're doing, or maybe you just have like 20 minutes in the morning to do this before all the triggers happen.

57:46So then when they happen, you literally open up the page or you open up the phone where the notes app is, where all of this is written, and then you just do what it says. So you have to cut out that hard work for yourself because at that point you're spent, You have decision fatigue. The motivation's already been worn. There is no willpower left at 11 p.m. at night when you're trying to change your habits to healthy eating.

58:08Johnny:The self-reflection, being able to talk to people about it, and what we've been trying to do with the show is really just paint the picture that it's okay. Everyone is going through this. Share this with your friends. Share this with the people who care about you. They can help reinforce the good behaviors. Even talking about accountability, just sharing your goals with others allows you to be held a little bit more accountable than just keeping all of these thoughts in your head. And a lot of us think, oh, I can just I can do that battle every day. And we're draining our willpower. We're not tapping into the deeper motivations, which we're going to talk about here and building out our blueprint for success.

58:44Yes.

58:45Johnny:Now, how do we take all of this and keep on track? Because it's a lot for us to consume. It's a lot for us to process. And I know being a Stephen Hayes fan, understanding we've talked about it with him exactly, values-based living. Not relying just on willpower. No. And, you know, again, if you do want to hone your willpower and train your willpower like you can train a muscle, it's got to come from values-based work. And this also, I think, was very countercultural when I was learning it. And I think it still is because we're so focused on goals as a society that we forget about values. And when I talk to people about values, they think, oh, wow, this is a really newfangled idea.

59:28It's not. It goes back all the way to Plato and Aristotle. Those guys figured it out way in advance because they were all about living the good life. And living the good life is not the absence of negative emotions, right? It's not the absence of challenges. It's living a life well-lived. It's living a life that's full of values, things that really nurture you from the inside. You know, what do you want to stand for when you leave this world? We all have such a brief period of time. How do you want to be remembered? And values and like goals can't be checked off. So running a half marathon, that's a goal.

1:00:00But a value that might be related to that might be healthfulness or physical health or something that you don't stop pursuing because you've had enough of. And I always use this example with people. Like, for example, if one of your values is honesty, do you think that's an easy road with the absence of negative emotions? Absolutely not. People sometimes don't want you to be honest. You might get into fights with your loved ones because you're honest with them about something. But you still do it anyway because it's important for you to be an honest person. The thing that I've noticed with values, and I mean, they changed my world and my life when I learned about them and then implemented them.

1:00:38and even more so the more I lean into them, the better everything around me is. And then also at the end of the evening, I'm, there's a fulfillment that is there of like, I lived today, pretty awesome. I nailed everything I wanted to do. I've, I'm tired from, from engaging and the things that are important to me. I'm good. In fact, I'm so good that I just want to go to bed so I can do it again tomorrow. Yeah. And that's so profound because I think again, you know, when you're used to just living your life based on checking off goals, you might not feel that way at the end of the day, that sort of internal fulfillment of, wow, like I I'm excited to start the next day again.

1:01:19And I really feel like I lived my life authentically when people say that they suffer from not feeling authentic or that they suffer from imposter syndrome. I oftentimes ask them how much of their work has ever been values based, because I think if it was, then they'd have a lot less of that and maybe even none of that. But people sometimes they grab onto goals that are not their own. They think somebody else wants it of them. They look at other people and they think that's the kind of goals that I should have. But they forget to ask themselves, what's my internal compass? What's driving me and what's the direction I need to travel?

1:01:47Johnny:Now, the question we get asked all the time is how do you come up with your values? Yes. So when your clients come in and you're like, hey, is this in line with your values? And they go, well, I don't know what my values are. And I know our audience asks us this all the time. What are your theories on how to develop your values? So I'm a very tactile person as well, as well as visual. So I love the values card sort for trying to figure out what your values are. And so there's a version of this in my book. It's also available on my website where, you know, obviously there's thousands of values, but to get people started and thinking in the right direction, I have 33 of the top most common values that people might have.

1:02:24So then you cut them out and you basically play a little game with yourself where you sort these values in front of you on a board. And so all of your top values will be on your left column. Then the medium important values will be in the middle. And then like the least important values on the right. And you actually order them and you try to force yourself to make a tiebreaker because people are like, oh, all five of these are the same level of importance. No, really try to line them out because it's almost just as important to know what your top values are, as well as the ones that are not important to you, because then don't spend energy committing to goals or saying yes to things that are on the bottom of that list.

1:02:57This is about building. This is about engineering. It's about putting together a foundation so that you don't lose yourself in this voyage.

1:03:05Johnny:The other thing is when people think about committing to values, they can also start to self-sabotage because they're like, but I'm not sure that this is going to be my, it's not your value forever. It's okay for it your value right now. Give yourself permission to choose some values for the now and learn, hey, in a couple of weeks, this really wasn't one of my values. I was sort of misguided. I heard it on the podcast. Johnny said it was his value. We also don't realize how easily we're influenced by others' values. And some of us grew up in religious households. We've talked about that. Or even if we're completely secular, we'll look for values outside of us and oftentimes just grab them because, oh, it's someone else's.

1:03:45Johnny:It's making them happy. It'll make yourself happy. and it doesn't work that way. Now, let's tie it all together for our blueprint for change so that all of our audience members can hit 2020 running. Okay. So my blueprint for change is basically the way that I think people should approach a visualization tool. There's lots of other visualization tools. We know that they help. But again, sometimes it doesn't get you to the finish line because the visualization is sort of more of a pie-in-the-sky picture as opposed to the actual prescriptive steps. So the blueprint for change just puts everything that we've talked about together today.

1:04:17It really starts with your values. That's at the top of the blueprint. And just like a blueprint for the house, it gives you the steps and the foundation of how to construct something so that anybody who looks at this blueprint for change, they'll see everything they need to see on the page and they'll know how to move forward. So you start with identifying your top five values. And then you focus those values onto maybe a couple of your most important goals right now. You want to make sure that the goal is aligned with those values. And if the goal is not built from the values, then you should really reconstruct that goal so that they are.

1:04:48Because otherwise you won't have that motivation or that willpower when you need it the most. And then I have people put the life factors on the bottom of the blueprint, because you need a reminder of where you came from. Why did you establish these self-sabotaging actions in the first place? How do these patterns evolve? And just making a couple of notes on which ones are actually impacting you and activating at certain moments to present as triggers. So then the middle part of the blueprint is all about the ABCs. It's like, what are my triggers? Write them all down. The thoughts, the thought distortions, the environments, the memories, the people, maybe certain social situations, and what behavior am I trying to change?

1:05:28And then creating the if thens right on that page. So then when you kind of take a step back and you look at that blueprint, everything is there for you. You can see the if-thens there. You know why you're working towards it because the values are the top and you see the self-sabotaging triggers on the bottom and on the sides that you can really make sure to avoid those pitfalls whenever they come up.

1:05:48Johnny:Having a plan, being in touch with their values, being able to visualize all of this. And again, have some acceptance for those moments. There are going to be dips in any goal you put together. There's going to be days where you're just not feeling it. There's going to be days where there is not the willpower, but having all of that mapped out can tap into the deeper motivations, the values that drive us towards the change. Yeah. And giving yourself that grace sometimes, like you said, that acceptance of, okay, this day wasn't a hundred percent day, but that's normal. And yet did I still live a day that I'm proud of?

1:06:21And I think when people have really nurtured those top values and they can still step back and say, but I did live a day I was so proud of. Maybe I didn't get to this particular benchmark on my goal, But when I step back and I take an inventory on whether or not I've honored my values today, I believe that I have.

1:06:38Johnny:Now, we got some questions from our network members, and they're live streaming with us. So Roz asks us, how do you avoid self-sabotage in romantic relationships? So when someone else is involved, we talked a lot about self-sabotage. But what if our self-sabotage is influencing the relationships in our life? And are there ways you've seen others do this without being conscious of it? What do you recommend to be present and engaged to have a fulfilling relationship? Awesome question. When I first started to write this book, I actually wanted to write it just on romantic self-sabotage. That was really my first motivation to write it because it was happening to everybody.

1:07:16You know, people say that they want a great relationship and they were totally self-sabotaging when somebody else was involved. There could be a lot of different life factors for why this is the case. but basically what it would look like is they either write off everybody who could potentially be a good relationship partner or once they get into a good relationship, they sabotage it by doing things to check the person, to test the person, and then eventually it doesn't work out and then they get to reinforce that negative belief of, see, I knew it. I knew it wasn't gonna work out. I'm just gonna be alone for the rest of my life.

1:07:45I might as well be a loner. And then it kind of keeps spinning out from there. And I think you have to get really honest about which life factor is triggering your relationship self-sabotage because for everybody, it's different. Some people who have an excessive need for control, they prefer sort of more of like a workaholic mentality where they distance people and they say, well, no one's going to work out. And they always have an excuse for why a relationship isn't going to work. But if somebody has more of a low self-concept, they may actually test that individual more, perhaps act out on their jealousy, maybe do things that are controlling.

1:08:18And then again, that person will then leave because nobody can take that forever. And then they then reinforce their low self-concept in romantic relationships. So I think the answer is to really look at the life factors, get honest with yourself. What is your particular brand of relationship self-sabotage? And then do opposite action. So this is something that is from dialectical behavior therapy, where even if you don't feel like it, you do the thing that is opposite of what you would usually do. And so if you usually would write off somebody because you'll say, well, that person's 10 pounds overweight.

1:08:50That would never work out for us. Go on the date anyway, because that's the opposite thing that maybe your old self would not do. I think there's also this romantic idea tied to relationships of where you're looking for somebody to complete you. Yes. Right? So like, oh, if I find the one, then I'll be whole and everything will be perfect. It's like, no, you're bringing your undeveloped self into a relationship and forcing all those problems on this other person. And that other person is bringing their undeveloped self into the relationship.

1:09:23Johnny:Yes, because light attracts light. That's so true. So if you're undeveloped, you're not going to be sitting across the table from someone who's fully developed willing to put up with that. So understanding that, yes, we're both a work in progress and the relationship is going to have to grow just like we're growing. And it's funny, we talk about this, like, if you think about what you've done, how much you've changed over the last 10 years, you're like, oh, immensely. I've grown. I'm a new individual. I'm working out now, running half marathons. I've changed so much. And you ask, okay, well, how much do you plan to change in the next 10 years?

1:09:57Johnny:Oh, not very much. Like, there are a few things I'm standing down here, but not, I like where I'm at. And then 10 years from now, okay, same thing. You've changed a lot. You're going to change a lot. Relationships are going to change and develop. up. You're going to grow close, depart and close again. And it's being patient with that process, that self-sabotage of writing people off too soon, looking for the negative and attaching onto it, or the opposite of being super jealous and controlling. I feel like phone a friend is also pretty relevant here. In those moments where you're about to take action against the person you're in a relationship with or place this heavy judgment on them, talk to someone outside of the relationship.

1:10:37Johnny:Talk to a friend, maybe a therapist, and you'll find that that behavior that you're about to reinforce actually damages the relationship and is unnecessary. Every week, we love to leave our audience with a challenge, self-development worthy. And Johnny had a favorite exercise in your book that we'd love for you to share with our audience. And this is something I talked to the guys about. You mentioned in the book that we're all susceptible to our own harm self-talk at certain times. I certainly realized for me, it was late at night and that's an easy one. You're worn down. You're usually at home, you're laying in bed or sitting on a couch and these things have an opportunity to bubble up.

1:11:16So if you could chat about having them be mindful and jot down journal when they're having these moments. Yeah, absolutely. I think again, And, you know, once we start to notice what our thought triggers are, they can pop up at all of these different times. And so in the beginning, I try to just challenge people to keep something on them that they can write down. Sometimes for people, it is writing on paper, which I still recommend. Yes. But sometimes it's hard to get to that. So I say, OK, fine, then open up an entry on your notes page in your phone and just a couple of times a day. Get into the routine of checking in with your thoughts.

1:11:54And so I recommend to start three times a day. And you can set those alarms on your phone, 9 a.m., 2 p.m., and 6 p.m. And when the alarm goes off, just ask yourself, what was I thinking just now? And just get used to writing that down. And even when you think nothing's happening, as we've already discussed, 50 ,000 thoughts in a day on average, if we're a more obsessive ruminative type, maybe more. So there's going to be a thought in there. But it's really about just getting yourself ready for that pattern of, what was I thinking just now? Because oftentimes we'll have a feeling, a negative feeling, or we'll do an action.

1:12:29And we don't know where it came from. But if you just start to get into the routine of asking yourself, what was I just thinking right before this? You start to identify those thought triggers that lead you down a path that you don't want to go.

1:12:39Johnny:I love it. And the book is full of great exercises and value cards. Where can the audience find more about your book and all of your work? So they can follow me on social. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at Dr. Judy Ho, my website, drjudyho.com. And my book is available on Amazon and wherever books are sold. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much for reading and for this awesome conversation. Absolutely.

1:13:14Johnny:It was so great having Dr. Ho on. In fact, I devoured her book, and it's so straightforward using CBT and ACT, two things that we love here at The Art of Charm. We certainly do love them, and certainly both of them I have used immensely to straighten out my own life, and I've come a long way. I learned a lot from her, and I hope you enjoyed the show. Let us know. We're always excited to hear from you. You can send us your thoughts by going to theartofcharm.com slash questions, and you can also email us at questions at theartofcharm.com. Of course, you can find us on social media at The Art of Charm, Facebook, Instagram, and Johnny's favorite, Twitter.

1:13:52Also, could you do us and the entire Art of Charm team a big favor? Go on over to iTunes and rate this podcast. It would really mean the world to us and helps others find the show.

1:14:02Johnny:If you're a college student and you're looking to learn some skills in business, marketing, and social, well, we got internships here at The Art of Charm. Go ahead and drop me an email, ajattheartofcharm.com, to learn more about our internships. Johnny, we got a shout out this week. Yes, I would love to give a shout out to Jose Rosado. If you're looking to build your Twitter, he is the guy to follow. He's got tons of tricks and tips and his tweets are powerful and hilarious. I love waking up every day to see what he's going to write. Check him out at Jose Rosado. The Art of Charm podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery and engineered by Sam J.

1:14:41Bradley Denham at Cast Media Studios and sunny downtown Hollywood.

1:14:45Johnny:Until next week, I'm AJ. And I'm Johnny. Have a good one. Yeah, I remember you You were the bad boy You threw your love away Like it was just a toy And you sold the world You sold the tragedy Cause you had your taste I'll cry all the years today Yeah, but I remember you Oh, yeah, I remember you Yeah, but I remember you But I'm proud of you all the way

1:15:49Thank you.