How to Defuse Any Situation | Gary Noesner

0:00Next up is a little song from CarMax about selling a car your way. You want to sell those wheels. You want to get a CarMax instant offer. So fast. Want to take a sec to think about it. Or like a month. Want to keep tabs on that instant offer. With OfferWatch. Want to have CarMax pick it up from your driveway. You want to get it done to it. You want to do it all. So, want to drive? CarMax. Pickup not available everywhere. Restrictions and fee may apply. Active listening for some just simply means being quiet. and saying, yeah, yeah, that's what we call minimal encouragers. That's part of it. But really effective listening boils down to two general components.

0:52All right, let's kick off today's show. Today, we're talking with former FBI negotiator, Gary Nessner about how to master emotions in a high stress situation. Gary retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career as an investigator, instructor, and negotiator. He was heavily involved in numerous crisis incidents covering prison riots, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealots, and more. He shares the number one attribute of expert negotiators with us today, why you need to focus on your emotions first to get to a rational outcome, how to move beyond solving problems to master negotiations, and what most people get wrong with active listening.

1:31Welcome to the show, Gary. It's great to have you. It's nice to be here. We were doing some prep for the show and listening to some of your earlier interviews, and I heard something really curious that you shared that I'd love for you to unpack for our audience. And you talked about being calm under pressure, even as a teenager. When did you realize that being calm was actually a tool in your arsenal? I don't know if I can give you an exact time. It's just sort of something that, you know, how much is nature versus nurture? And my father was always a very calm guy in any kind of a situation that might upset others.

2:06And I suppose I inherited some of that. And early on, I just realized that not controlling your emotion in a really tense situation really did not contribute to getting the problem addressed or solved. So I just, again, I don't know how much is natural or it evolved in me to say that, you know, to really be able to deal with this, I need to stay calm and think clearly. And when did you start to realize that was a strength of yours? Not until I became a negotiator in the FBI and, you know, had opportunities to be involved in some very stressful situations and then, you know, come to appreciate that that aspect of my personality was a very positive thing.

2:50I mean, I used to have people routinely say, how do you stay so calm with this thing going on and somebody's life's on the line? And I said, I don't know. I mean, I think it's a bit like a trauma surgeon, you know, dealing with a very horrific situation that sort of puts their emotions aside and just focuses on the task at hand and does what needs to be done. And, you know, and that's, I think, a similar way I approach dealing with the crisis events in my FBI career. I think many people have seen movies about those situations and maybe kids have thought about it. But what was your journey into becoming a negotiator?

3:29To make a long story short, I wanted to be an FBI agent since I was a young kid. And something about the job attracted me, the prestige, the really interesting and ever challenging work that the FBI does. And all of that in combination really attracted a young fellow that, you know, this is adventure, excitement, challenge, all the above. When I became an FBI agent after going to college, you know, negotiations was a brand new discipline within the law enforcement community. It started in 73 by NYPD, and the FBI pretty quickly glommed onto it and expanded the knowledge about it and spread it around the country and the world in 74.

4:17Well, I didn't become a negotiator until 1980, but the field was still in its infancy then. But something about it attracted me, and I got the training and, again, began to have experiences in operating in that capacity. And it just was a good fit for me. And it ended up later in my career becoming my full-time vocation within the FBI. And, yeah, no regrets. Was that something that you grew into more in your role and felt more comfortable? Or was this something that you had known pretty quickly in getting involved? Well, a combination of both. Again, something about my personality and my attributes led me to believe that this would be a good fit for me or this would be something that I would feel comfortable doing, resolving complex crisis situations using verbal skills instead of physical force.

5:13And then, of course, like any job, you learn as you do more and more and you get exposed to more challenging events and it solidifies your understanding of what works and what doesn't work. So, you know, to say there was one, you know, epiphany moment, you know, that would not be correct, but certainly an evolving process for me and I suspect most others. What's interesting for both Johnny and I in studying persuasion, influence and negotiation is how often we're actually using it in our intimate relationships. And I know your wife has quipped, don't use your FBI techniques on me, but we're negotiating in all facets of our life.

5:54I think all of life is a negotiation. We're social animals. For most of human history, we've lived in groups of 100 people or less until modern times, the last several centuries. But prior to that, to live in that village of 100 people or less, you had to cooperate to mutual defense, bringing in the crops, fighting off the wolves or the aliens or the enemies, whatever it might be. And in that process, we learned that we had to communicate, we had to resolve differences so we could work cooperatively. You know, and some people, the basic rules of life, you know, they feel came from the Ten Commandments.

6:39But I think that stuff is common sense. You know, you want group harmony, you don't steal your neighbor's canoe. You know, you want harmony, you don't, you know, steal his wife or whatever it might be. These are common sense sorts of things that that helped us to evolve and work cooperatively and advance societally as a people. So, yeah, I think every aspect, as you say, you know, your romantic relationships, you're you're the two of you working together on this podcast. And, you know, it's it requires cooperation and making concessions to the other party when it's, you know, in your mutual benefit and trying to appreciate their point of view.

7:20and somebody has a beef about something, you try to listen to it and understand and appreciate it before you respond. And these are just very basic things. Unfortunately, we too often allow our emotional reactions to become an impediment to that cooperative interaction. A lot of us, especially in these situations where we have an agenda or an outcome in mind that we are after, we often lose that ability to listen to the other side, see their perspective, and invest enough in the interaction to move the negotiation forward. And you shared, you've continued to level up on this skill even after the training and then putting it into practice.

8:00Were there some key lessons once you actually started using that training that really helped shape you as a negotiator? If I look back at my very early days as a negotiator, I think I probably talked more than I should have. I should have focused more on listening, which is the key element to successful negotiations. I think I became much, much better at that as my career progressed. You know, if I'm talking, I'm not learning anything. I'm not learning anything about you, what's motivating your behavior, what you're angry at or frustrated or whatever brought you in conflict with law enforcement.

8:39You only do that by asking open-ended questions and paraphrasing what the person has said to demonstrate, I hear you and I understand what you're telling me. In addition to helping me learn more about you and eventually leading to what solution we might cooperatively come upon, it helps demonstrate that I'm a good person. I'm not here to ruin your day, make life worse. I want to understand. it's a powerful, powerful tool. And, and, you know, it functions well in any aspect of society. I mean, if you're purchasing something in a store, you're having a disagreement with a family member, you know, crazy uncle Charlie during Thanksgiving, whatever.

9:24It is quite notable. I think you were touching on this before in today's political environment. I've never seen it so bad because we are very polarized and that's unfortunate because if we don't take the time to listen to the other side, we can't really learn what their point of view is or what their motivation is. Only if we respond in a respectful way will we eventually have an opportunity to share our perspectives and our points of view. So, you know, it's Stephen Covey, the business guru says, first seek to understand and then to be understood. And it's a nice way to say something that's been around since the dawn of time.

10:04But if you think about it that way, it's really powerful. You have to earn the right to be of influence to somebody else. You have to invest the time and energy in it. And when we do that, it doesn't guarantee success. But if you are successful, it's most likely because you have reacted and responded and acknowledged in that way.

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14:49And what we work on with our clients is actually creating more of that silence because that silence is the opening for the other person to share. You may be feeling awkward in it, but oftentimes in those tense moments, those negotiations, just sitting there quietly and letting that conversation breathe, the other side might share even more than they were willing to recognize or even wanted to just by actually mastering the silence. As human beings, as we're doing right now, we get in a pattern of communication. Okay, I said something, now I'm giving you signals that now it's your turn to talk, and then you'll say something, and then I say, okay, now it's my turn to talk.

15:32And if you're talking and I stay silent, it encourages you to continue to talk and to tell me more. And if you're a negotiator trying to fathom what is motivating this aberrant behavior, this dangerous behavior, I want to learn more about what's driving it, what's behind it, what's the emotion. You know, another way of looking at it is my very favorite chart. I wish I had a slide to show you, but I can do it this way. It's a child teeter-totter. You know, one goes up, one goes down. Seesaw, we used to call them. Well, if your emotions are high, rational thinking behavior is low. And I would argue that you cannot say that's not an absolute.

16:18So what we try to do in negotiations, we first lower the emotional level and look what comes up. As the emotional content drops, our ability to think and behave more rationally increases. You know, the other way of looking at it is people become very demonstrative and loud and angry when they don't think they're being heard, listened to, or respected. And when, in fact, you do those things, it really reduces their need to continue to act out. You know, they're not saying, nobody's listening to me. You say, yeah, yes, I am. And let me demonstrate that by paraphrasing what you just said. You know, you've got this job that's very important to you, and all of a sudden you came into work today, and your boss fired you, and you were just devastated by that.

17:02And you just don't know how you're going to tell your wife and kids that you've lost your job. And if I get all that right, I haven't just said that I understand you. I've demonstrated. I've shown you. So it's very powerful. A lot of us have fear around paraphrasing and saying the wrong thing. But it's actually really powerful, even if you are wrong, to allow the other person to reset and correct what you said in that paraphrasing to really make sure you have their perspective in mind as you're negotiating. Because so often we're bringing our own preconceptions, our own ideas of what the other person might be thinking or feeling, and paraphrasing allows them to correct the record.

17:44It actually improves your ability to negotiate. It's almost like a no-lose situation because if I state in my own words what I think you've told me, And if I get it a little wrong, then it encourages you to say, well, no, Gary, that's not what I meant. What I really mean is I'm not disappointed. I just feel as though I've been neglected or misunderstood, whatever it might be. what have i done i know i've learned more uh specifically more accurately what it is that's bothering you the issue that you're dealing with whatever it might be it's a win-win you can't really lose you know i mean so you know i i think it's it's good to say you know i i think i hear that you know this is creating problems for you the following way no no it's not but here's how it is affecting my life.

18:37Win-win, you know? So those are good habits to get into. You know, if you give people the opportunity, most of the time they will tell you what's bothering them, what issues they have, what concerns, particularly if they feel you're receptive to hearing it and trying to understand it. In those moments where you get it wrong, it may be it's not really that important to them, so they won't correct you. But in that correction, they're really sharing with you what they value, what they care about, what is important to them. That correction is so helpful. You want to have an accurate sense of it. There's a lot of nuance, particularly in my former life in the crisis area.

19:16You know, you don't want to take wild guesses about why someone is doing something. You know, you really want to try to really pin it down as specifically as you can. What exactly happened and how is it affecting you? and what is the outcome you're looking for? You know, these are all important things. And if you take your time and invest it, you know what this all boils down to, people want to work with and engage with people they like and respect. So if you come across as interested, likable, genuine, authentic, that's the magic sauce. That's the secret sauce that gets you in almost all instances to the place you want to be.

19:57Now, no techniques or approaches or no matter how sincerely practiced, no matter how heartfelt will guarantee a certain outcome. And people to tell you that, I think, are being a little disingenuous. But I think, you know, if you practice these approaches, you will be a successful human being because to be a successful human being, you have to have positive social engagements at all levels. And there's not a darn thing wrong with any of that. I mean, you come across as being a good person that people like to hang around with, you know, talk to, spend time. And I mean, what's the value of that?

20:42I mean, I think it's enormous. What would you say in the years that you were doing this, the percentage of incidences where the primary suspect just wanted to be heard and the crisis was due to wanting to get that attention? Of course, we see tons of crises now, and there's manifesto this and things posted online. People have more avenues for that than they used to have. But still, they need the eyes and the ears to be able to hear that. And I would imagine that there would be a large percentage were people who just wanted to be, who never had an opportunity to be heard. well let me answer it this way you know when i first became a negotiator um what we practiced was bargaining skills that's what nypd developed and the fbi copied in advance with the assumption that everybody is a hostage taker with a set of demands you know you you uh you're holding hostages in the bank and you want a getaway car and a million dollars All right.

21:56And you're also hungry. OK, well, if you want a hamburger sent in, you're going to have to let one of the hostages go. I mean, it was it was a basic approach. It was valuable in that it slowed things down instead of just going in with guns blazing to get the bad guys. Now we were talking and gave us the opportunity to create a relationship. But when I became a full-time negotiator in 90, we quickly came to the conclusion that 90 % of the situations were not bargaining situations at all. They were very expressive, emotional situations that go to your point. people frustrated angry a sense of loss loss of relationship loss of job loss of self-esteem and people in their view were not listening nobody understood them they weren't appreciated and they're suicidal they're dangerous they're gonna kill people they love you know any number of issues or they're just barricaded and don't want to you know cooperate with law enforcement so So these are highly charged, sometimes influenced by drug or alcohol.

23:00So the typical police come out or we're coming in to get you is really not the model to, you know, here we have to say, hey, Mr. Smith, this is Gary with the police. I want to help you here. I understand there's a lot going on in your life today. And I don't know if I can help, but I sure like to try. You know, it presents to them something different than what they expect from the police. And in essence, it's a manifestation of crisis intervention. skills. And that's what we were doing. And those same skills, those same active listening techniques that we teach also do apply in terrorism or more traditional criminal activities.

23:36It's still relationship building. I still think that's the biggest change that we made that I'm very proud to have been a big part of was moving the larger field to a crisis intervention model versus a a bargaining model of as to how approach situations. You know, if you'd gone to a law enforcement negotiation conference in 1989 and said, how many people are familiar with active listening? Zero hands would go up, literally zero hands. Today, every negotiator's hand would go up. It's become the bread and butter of the basics of every negotiator's training. It's these non-threatening, non-judgmental listening skills that allow you to come across as, you know, a concerned, genuine, helpful person.

24:27It's, and, you know, going to an earlier question you pose, you can certainly extrapolate that into life in general, you know, same thing.

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