How Your Mind Manipulates You | Owen Fitzpatrick

29:49And maybe sometimes if we're lacking in confidence, our identity will be a lot worse than it should be. But to me, what I want to do is help people remove that conversation entirely and focus on what is known as an anti-fragile identity. So anti-fragility comes from the work of Nassim Nicholas Taleb, is this concept of bouncing back from adversity stronger, things that gain from disorder so in other words as opposed to just being resilient where you bounce back from adversity this is about how can you become even better so like you lift weights your muscles are broken down and they come back better and stronger and bigger as a result to me the same thing is true for our identity having an anti-fragile identity means that you believe that you can continuously evolve and improve and every bit of adversity every bit of challenge every bit of change every bit of difficulty that you have to deal with can help you become better as a direct results of that.

30:38It can help you to become smarter, but you have to have not just this anti-fragile identity or a growth mindset where you believe you can improve. It's also about learning to have what I call a belief growth mindset, which means that you can update your beliefs and that you're okay with doing that. Because I think a big part of it is we see reality and we don't want to be wrong, but being prepared to be wrong is a superpower because it means if I'm wrong about this, maybe I could be wrong about the fact that I can't approach people. Maybe I could be wrong about the fact that I'm not a good presenter.

31:06Maybe I could be wrong about the fact I'll never be good at sales. Maybe I can be wrong. That invitation to yourself in a way that helps you to become even better because of it, to me, that's transformational. So the thing I tell people or suggest to people, and certainly what I do all the time myself, is to always be looking for, how is this making me even better than I was before? How can this experience make me stronger or smarter or more effective? What is it I can learn from this adventure that actually makes me better than I was yesterday? And most important Second of all, how could being wrong in this situation make me so much more effective in this context than I could ever have possibly imagined?

31:44When we start asking those kinds of questions, it ensures that we become so much more effective in every conversation we have because nothing can get us down because everything just moves us forward. And it's so liberating. it opens the it opens the world to us that has that was previously closed off relate and relationships opportunities and most importantly and especially in today's climate is your skill stacking and being able to learn and acquire new skills that previously you were not within your identity or within your scope of being able to learn. And you're not going to get a job and work that job for the rest of your life like you did 100 years ago.

32:37Now it's about how quickly you're able to acquire new skills, how quickly you're able to adapt, move, position yourself. And that takes even more than what previously was a flexible mind. But as you mentioned, it's now the ability to be able to adapt and shift and change and absorb and change beliefs. And you know what I experienced when I was a therapist and also even as an executive coach? I spent so much time listening to people describe the reasons why they couldn't be successful. And the reasons why they couldn't be successful were always in the past. It was always because of this, because the way I grew up, because of that.

33:16These are stories. And they're stories that we tell to ourselves. And it occurred to me, if you were destroying your life because of the stories you tell yourself about what your life has been like, what would happen if you were to transform those stories and change the stories? And instead of making it a victim story where you fight, like, because people usually came to me, either victims or villains. They were either, I'm the reason for my own demise, or I'm the victim of the world. And my job in both cases was to give them a sense of agency, similar to what you do in terms of the work that you both do, is helping them to take agency and helping them to take control.

33:46so they go, you know what? I can do something about this. I can turn this around. I can change the story. And when you help people to change the story, which is what great therapy or great coaching or great training or great teaching is, then they can start to see themselves as going, you know what? The same things that I thought were the reasons of my failure are going to be the same reason why I win, why I succeed, why I get everything that I want. And to me, that's one of the most powerful transformational insights we can possibly acquire as we go into the future. So let's pull on this thread.

34:16a little bit more, maybe describe a situation where you recognize that there had to be a belief shift for you and pull on that thread for us and walk us through how you became anti-fragile in your view. So for me, there's a few different experiences. There's obviously when I first struggled with depression when I was a teenager and I was at a suicidal stage, I knew that I needed to either end my life at the time or I knew I needed to make a shift in the way in which I was dealing with it mentally and when i believed that i needed to stay alive that wasn't the end of it that was just the beginning but it started to make me look at the fact that since i'm here if you've ever seen um the very first rocky right um one of my favorite movies and in it there's this a lot of people talk about when he gets up at the count of you know uh you know the count of nine or you know in the 14th round but there's a wonderful example there whereby um he's on the bed with adrian and This is like the night before the fight.

35:10And he goes, you know, no one's ever beaten Creed. And it doesn't even matter if I beat him. I just want to go the distance. He goes, all I want to do is go the distance. And when I saw that, that became a metaphor for me where I was like, that's what I need to do. I need to go the distance. And that belief that I needed to go the distance was the thing that kept me going. And so from an anti-fragile point of view, I realized at that moment, whatever bad things, experiences I was going to have. Well, at the end of the day, I was already at the worst place I could be. so now there was only the only way is up from that perspective and then the more things that happened to me the more i focused on what i could do the more i learned to you know develop the sort of an agency mindset a growth mindset all these things that all became so much more powerful so that i suppose the late the last example is in um 2020 during covid i was in new york it was my second year in in the states and uh i lost 85 because i was traveling around the world you know to different countries, 100 flights a year up to that time.

36:09And within overnight, 85 % of my income was taken away. And yet in that moment, my response to it was so much better than I could imagine. I hustled, I was able to adapt, and I didn't feel scared. I felt strong, I felt capable, I felt empowered. And I managed to turn it around to the point where, you know, business has never been better. And that ability came from the fact that I'd been through so much before, and I'd learned so much and told myself so many different stories and changed those stories. I'll give you one other simple, quick example. This isn't to do with me, it's to do with a client of mine.

36:46Years ago, I would do these sessions where I'd help people overcome, change habits. And a coach came up on stage wanting to stop smoking. And she said, look, I've tried everything. I know all the tricks and tools, nothing's worked. And she said, because I'm just a smoker. And I said, okay, cool. How many cigarettes do you smoke in a day? She said, I don't know, about 20. I said, how long does it take you to smoke a cigarette? She goes, oh, about three or four minutes. I said, let's say it takes you four minutes of cigarette, right? And she goes, yes. I say, if you're smoking 80 minutes a day and you're not smoking two hours and 40 minutes a day, and both of them were jobs, which one would you describe yourself as?

37:24And she goes, well, the one, obviously I'm do in 22 hours and 40 minutes. I said, so here's the thing. You're a non-smoker that smokes for 80 minutes a day. And at that moment she sat back and it was like this like look that came over her face. I never thought about it like that before. I saw her five years later. And from that moment, she did not smoke one cigarette. She did not pick up a cigarette. That changed everything. Now she had the tools. She knew how to deal with cravings. She had learned and trained herself and all that. But it was that little permission that this can line up with who you believe you are.

37:54that was transformational for her. And I think so often it's the switch in identity that holds us back. James Clear talks about, you know, every time you engage in a behavior, it's a vote for the person you want to become. To me, this is the most important insight we need to get about change in general. When you finally find your thing, you want the whole world to know about that thing. So you use a thing called Canva to make it an even bigger and better thing. Whether you want to create flyers for that thing, make presentations for that thing, or design merch for that thing. You can do anything so people can see your thing, feel your thing, love your thing.

38:32The next thing you know, it's a thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. We gather here tonight to bring women back to their rightful place. The Testaments, a new Hulu original series from the executive producers of The Handmaid's Tale. It's easier to accept a story than believe that the people around you are monsters. The battle isn't over. There comes a time when you have to take action, when you have to choose your own destiny. Never quite as it seems. Watch the new Hulu original series, The Testaments, streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

39:10Well, I think many of us feel like we're just barreling down the highway. Maybe there's some check engine lights coming on in our dashboard, but we got to get to the destination. We got pressure on us. We got a family to provide for. And a lot of this stuff sounds really helpful, but man, I'm driven. What are those check engine lights? What are those signs that maybe we should pull the thread on this identity? And maybe it's actually not serving us for the top performers listening to this who feel like they're driven and motivated and they're cruising along just fine. So we have to look at results, right?

39:41To me, there's always two things, right? There's the results in the actual world. So what are the results you're getting in your life? If you're nailing it on all fronts, if you've got perfect work-life balance, if you're making all the money you want, if you're having the best life possible, if you're killing it in every single domain, great. You don't need to listen to us. You're doing wonderfully. Fantastic. But if you feel that you're struggling in one of those areas, now all of a sudden that's an invitation to ask a question. Now, the other type of result we're looking for is the emotional result.

40:09So how are you feeling most of the time? And if you're feeling, once again, if you're feeling blissfully happy all the time, 24 hours a day, great. That suggests that you're good. But most of the time we're not. And when you look at the real results, either the feelings that you feel or what's happening in your life, the question isn't always. Oftentimes we go to what's the practical solution. So if I turn around to a friend and say, look, I'm feeling really down. Their first thing is, what about? And let's fix this. And that's a comment from an amazing place. but anyone who's ever struggled with anxiety or depression or anything that is going to go that's the worst thing you could say to me as if you know you fix my life and oh all of a sudden i'm cured thanks very much for that and so we need to realize the feelings and the results are the invitation to ask but what we need to ask is is that it's not always the practical answer what is the answer is often our beliefs our beliefs are often the reason why we're struggling so if you are going you know barreling down the highway doing a million things but you're not getting the results you want if you were to learn the beliefs that are sabotaging you, the things that are flying under the hood, and this is the top leaders I've seen and worked with, have these kind of beliefs surfacing.

41:16The more you understand that, the more you're able to make smarter, better decisions, and therefore you will get to your destination faster, and you will achieve more of what you want, and you will start to feel more of what you want too. But beliefs are the answer. They determine how we interpret the world, they interpret what we do, and they determine how well we do it as well. Well, I think many of us right now are also struggling with the amount of information that we are consuming from the external world. So modern life feels like everything's sped up because we're getting shorter and shorter clips in our feeds.

41:49We're getting hit with algorithms. Our friends are sharing trends and things we need to do and things we shouldn't be doing. And it does feel overwhelming. And so much of this comes down to editing what's coming in, all of the signal coming in so that you can actually make sense of the reality that you want to be in? Maybe not the reality that other people want to be in, but you can control your reality. So how can we become better editors feeling overwhelmed with all the different signals that we're getting? I think that's a great question. And we have to look at the process of editing and what that's all about.

42:20So the journey that I had in writing this book, I've written a number of books before, but I never enjoyed anything as much as working on the book or propaganda. To me, the beauty of it was that I was going into all these stories from World War II and I was sharing the psychological principles behind belief. And yet the first draft was like 140 ,000, 150 ,000 words, right? So when we talk about the overwhelming amount of information, editing is the process of what they say, kill your darlings and finding the stuff that won't fit in and start to streamline what actually matters. And so what I had to do was go through that entire process and find the very best stories, the very best studies, the very best insights, the most important principles, and the one-liner of what this is all about, so that when people read it, they're impacted the most.

43:06Now, in the everyday world that we live in, our goal needs to be to be able to recognize we are now in a position where we can get all the information. And I don't mean all the information in our... I mean, we can get all the information. You go to ChatGPT or Claude or Perplexity or whatever, you can get literally every bit of information you want. so the real skill that we need to have in the future is to optimize not just curating our own reality but curating the kind of information that we want and the kind of goals that we have so the ability to be strategic to focus in on what do i want to optimize for what is most important for me in this situation and it doesn't mean we deny it some people are like don't ever watch the news wait well not watching the news will have a benefit in that you'll be a lot less angry like when I went to the only country in the world that I've ever seen the news not make me angry was North Korea because the news was just positive.

43:57Everything's going great, you know, and you don't want to live in a world where, you know, the blind news or the blinkers are on there as well. But when you are in a situation where you're afraid of giving yourself information, that's not also helpful. So to me, the answer is that we need to be figuring out what am I optimizing for? What do I really want to be feeling most of the time? What information is useful for me in this, you know, what ecosystem can I create around me? And as a result of that, start moving towards it. Like we, we have an ability to follow people and unfollow on social media.

44:28We have an ability to, um, have what I call an attention audit, where we audit, where we put our attention at any moment in time. And if you want to know why you feel as shitty as you do, generally it's because of where your attention has been for the duration that you've put it there. So I think a big part is recognizing this attention piece and then deciding, right, this is what I'm optimizing for. Therefore, putting my attention in these places are going to serve me and empower me in this way. And therefore, similar to me trying to get the best information in the book so that the reader gets it, you put the best information for you so that you get it and you do that on a daily basis.

45:05And actually it becomes second nature and you start to do it habitually, you know, once you've done it a few times. Yeah. And I think once you recognize your core values, map it to your identity and what actually matters to you, it becomes a lot easier to edit. But what we find with a lot of our clients who are being pulled in all these different directions is they don't actually have a strong sense of self. They have a bunch of different tribes. Maybe they want to be a part of a bunch of scattered identity markers and pieces that they've tried to assemble some success, some failure. And because of that, they're just adrift and so easily taken in by what social media says or the latest trend is that they should be doing and not grounded in who they actually want to be.

45:46And I think what's so empowering about this is once you understand your own identity, then you start to pick up on these signals and others. And this is where real influence and persuasion comes in, because everything we've talked about is how much our identity and sense of self motivates behaviors and actions and creates beliefs in our reality. And when you understand your own, you can start to pick up on it in conversation with others, complete strangers to coworkers, to peers, to your partner. You understand them at a deep enough level. You can influence, persuade and have a greater impact in your life.

46:21And to me, that's why I wrote the book in the first place was to learn to influence ourselves better and then to influence others as well. And to your point, it's the same thing. Because ultimately, for a belief to change, it has to feel right. It has to fit in with who we are. And only then will it make sense. And the same is true when you're trying to influence someone else. You make sure your idea feels right to them. You make sure that it fits in with who they are, who they want to be, or the group that they're part of. And then they will make sense of it. You know, the rationalization, the reasoning, the logic behind it, that's table stakes.

46:52We need to have that anyway, right? But if you're presenting to someone, if you're presenting, let's say, data in a corporate environment, well, the data won't always win them over. What does win them over is how you make them feel and how you connect it with who they are. And one of the most interesting pieces I came across in terms of the research I did was just how powerful, let's say, our culture is, just how powerful our sense of meaning is. all of these different elements influence how we construct our reality and how we construct our beliefs and that's why when something like covid happens it kind of turns a lot of things around it impacts culture massively it impacts the meaning that we give to our lives massively and therefore it can shift quite a lot in our entire perception of the way in which the world is so for me you know inner propaganda is my attempt to try to help people give a roadmap to how they can start to change the beliefs that they have so that they can start to be better at influencing others as well.

47:47And recognizing when people are influenced by things that maybe you don't want to be influenced in your life by. And I think that's also really powerful when you can start to recognize not only your own inner propaganda, but the other inner propaganda of people around you that might be getting under your skin or might be causing a lot of stress and frustration where you can now find a sense of relief of like, okay, that's their perception. that's their identity that's why they found meaning in those behaviors and beliefs i don't have to engage in that or i don't have to let that impact me as negatively as it has in the past and that's where it becomes really empowering not only can you influence yourself and your relationships but you can also take back that time if like hey i don't need to get so emotionally engaged with people who have a different perspective or just seeing a different side of this reality based on their identity exactly and most people they do it because of the way in which they're in a propaganda is driven so when someone trolls you online and says like nasty like people find it very easy to troll people online a little bit harder in in real life but in real life it's often the ones closest to you that can wind you up or trigger you in what way but again we find ourselves influenced by that because it's almost like it affects something inside of ourselves a part of our own story that we're telling ourselves and when you change the story inside of you you could become pretty much impervious to other people's stories and what other people are trying to do and it means that often you know when you see the trolls online it really doesn't affect you the same way because you understand you feel sorry for them like they're dealing with their struggles right they're you know the whole thing of thinking about a troll is that they're you know in some basement typing you know on a keyboard going i'm gonna watch me destroy this person watch me to make them feel bad and you know when you see them like that it changes the story you tell about them, which makes them less of a threat.

49:37And I think we need to start to do that more. You know, for me, one of the things I love to do is to recognize when inner propaganda is affecting me, when it's getting to me. And then once I do it, I kind of have a dialogue with it. I see it like the inner dictator. I call him Dick. And I'm like, all right, Dick, what's what's on the agenda today? What are you trying to do to me today, mate? And then, well, you need to worry about this. OK, Dick, I'm totally taking you seriously. Just get it out of your system, mate. And it kind of completely changes it for me. And so if there is any of you out there that feels like you've got an inner dictator in there, you know, just call him Dick and just, you know, don't take it as seriously.

50:12Mental health is in the absence of negative thoughts. It's being able to not have to believe them. something else to bring up as well is I don't think people grasp all the ways that propaganda does enter their purview. So for instance, the, a lot of the, the trolls that are going to be out there, who's to say they're actually real, right? There are companies that handle bot farms to push messaging. And so you're like, well, why would, you know, you're wondering, you're being critical of the news source. You're not looking at in the comment section of, because what they're trying to build is consensus.

51:02So that you're like, oh, well, if everybody feels this way, I might be missing something. I guess I need to get on board or I'm the jerk. And again, when this comes to the most important piece to what AJ was saying, is if you're not anchored to anything, then you're very easily pushed around by propaganda. And of course, your own propaganda, which is why we try to orient all of our clients to their core values and start constructing an identity through the things that actually matter the most to them. I think that's a great point. In the book, I say spot the storytellers and the storytellers aren't just the media, right?

51:50The storytellers are, you know, your family, right? Your parents, your children, your partner, your sister, brother, cousin, best friends, like everybody influences us in a certain way and so the real trick is to recognize that and to be okay with it because oftentimes they're not doing it out of from a bad place but then to your point there's also trolls uh that are bots that are programmed to be able to sow discord and so everywhere you go people are trying to influence you you were resisting thousands a day and more often than not they're going to sink in the key though is to your point the more you have that stability, the more that you understand yourself, the more that you understand the way your brain works, the more you understand how inner propaganda works, the more that you can start to create a sense of solidity, which enables you to be more empowered.

52:38And that's really going back to the anti-fragile identity. That means nothing can affect you or make you worse. It all serves to help you. And I really think that the more that, and Art of Charm is like that, right? The kinds of things that you share, the kind of guests you bring on are all helping people to start to understand more about the social engineering and when you work with them your goal is to be able to help them not just learn skills but it's much more important it's it's about the identities that people build so they become more resistant and more astute and more cynical and more skeptical about the various uh attempts to be able to dictate their reality which i think is crucial in the modern world i know and you you bring up a good point as well and i'm sure you have dealt with this in your discourse and what you're putting out there, because I certainly do.

53:25Whenever I start talking about belief and influence, then I always get a bunch of people accusing me of teaching people how to manipulate people. And it's like, so, well, we have that going on. But as you mentioned, it's not about manipulation. It's having an understanding of all of the directions that you are being pushed. And as you said, thousands of influence opportunities a day are hitting you and you need to be aware of it. And for us, that awareness builds the anti-fragility that you're talking about because now you can become stronger in who you are. And it's about protection or otherwise you're not going to accomplish the things that you set out to accomplish.

54:16And even worse than that, they're influencing you by saying this is manipulation, right? Like whenever someone calls me, I'm going to go, you're manipulating. They're trying to sell you the story that says that you are morally reprehensible for engaging in a particular practice, but they're doing it in that way, effectively trying to influence you. To me, manipulation influence, the difference is when you manipulate, you are deliberately deceiving the person so that you can get what you want and you don't care about what they want. For me, what I call influence is when you're trying to clearly influence somebody to help them get what they want and simultaneously get what you want.

54:55So my friend, whenever people come up and go, look, you're an expert in influence. Tell me, how do I persuade this person to do this? I say, that's the wrong question. The wrong, the right question is what do they want? And it's not always a tangible thing. It's what do they want to feel, right? Who do they want to be? That's the first question. Once you answer that, then you can start to help them to be able to get there what they want. At the same time, you can start to show them how by doing what it is that you want can help them achieve what it is that they want. And sometimes that means just making people feel respected, which is something that so many people are allergic to when it comes to political discourse.

55:28It's like, you know, whenever someone disagrees with me, I've got to mock them. I've got to, you know, talk down to them, act as if they're the biggest idiot in the world, and then wonder why they're not listening to a word that I say. If you disrespect people, you know, this is not, you know, Einstein work here. Of course, they're going to react negatively. But if you give them respect, if you show that you are genuinely curious in their point of view, they'll be so much more open to your perspective. And that's what works. Well, part of this awareness is also recognizing that the foot in the door here is emotion.

56:02So if you are actually getting emotional about things, that's the place to question, am I being influenced by someone else's propaganda? Why are they trying to get me so emotionally worked up? What is the payoff? What are they trying to influence me towards? And that's often the blind spot that we have because the emotions can flood us, can feel overwhelming. And then it's very hard to grapple with why. Why am I feeling this way? What is the reason behind the emotional charge of social media or the news or this person on the street who's trying to get something from me? But it's recognizing those emotional moments are actually the foothold to someone influencing you.

56:39And so pay closer attention. That's such an important point. And again, when I came to it, the way in which I structure the book is feels right, fits in and makes sense. the notion of feels right is this idea that unless the idea feels right we are not going to even consider it we're not going to use any logical reason of value we are just going to defend against it if it does not feel right and so the feeling right piece matters more than most people think because of there's a concept in neuroscience called affective realism which is the notion that we see the world through our feelings and we distort the world based upon our feelings and what that effectively means for us is that if you've ever experienced being hangry right angry because you're hungry or tangry, as I call it, you know, you're tired, you haven't slept enough.

57:24So you're snappy with people. You see the world through that lens. And to your point, if you don't know that the reason I'm pissed off is because I haven't slept, because I haven't eaten, because of this, because my team lost, because of this, then you might ascribe the reason to the conversation you're having with that person. And so that's why there's a great technique known as emotional granularity. And what it means is it means identifying what specifically am I feeling right now, you go to the granular of the emotion and you try to describe it in as vivid, clear, specific detail as possible.

57:52And once you do that, it reduces the significance of the impact of it. Actually, neurologically, it reduces the amount of the amygdala is involved, but it means that you're much less likely to be affected by that emotion simply by labeling it specifically. And then to your point, AJ, if you then take away from that and deduce, well, where did this actually feeling start, the more educated you become about your feelings, the more that you can make better decisions because you diffuse those emotions and you're now being able to make the better connection to go, oh, you know why I was feeling this way?

58:25It's because of this. It's because, oh, I was on Instagram and I saw my ex or because I was on Instagram and my best friends like killing it and I feel I'm struggling. Like the more you're able to do that, the less it's going to interfere with the everyday conversations you have and the better you'll be as a result of that as well. Yeah. And you'll pick up on it in other people. Like, why are you so emotionally charged by this? Like, what are you trying to get from me? And oftentimes if we fall victim to scams or people taking advantage of us, they are preying on that emotional charge to then get logically to our wallets, to get logically to something from us.

59:01And we oftentimes we don't recognize that because, well, as you said, we don't have the granularity in our emotional vocabulary of what the emotion actually is. We might just default to, oh, I'm frustrated or I'm angry. Well, is it really anger? Like what's going on underneath it? And then we often can't from there draw on, well, okay, in these moments, it influences me to take behaviors and actions that I wouldn't consider normally. Like if I'm rushing to a meeting, well, I'm gonna drive more aggressively. I'm gonna act to behaviors that I don't default to normally because of that emotion. and people use those emotions every day, online and in person to influence us.

59:39And that's also how cults recruit, by the way, right? When a cult recruits you, it does it based upon the vulnerability of your emotion. So it usually preys on things like loneliness. If you're really lonely and you're a college student and these two really cute girls come up to you and say, hey there, you're so, and start befriending you. If you're lonely, if you don't have any friends, of course you're, it doesn't matter. You could be a super genius, right? A prodigy. And still in that moment, you're going to be like, I want to believe whatever they're feeding me because it means that I'll be part of this group.

1:00:07And then they bring you in and then they share some wacky ideas. But you're like, well, it's not that wacky. And well, well, they do make some good points. And you justify it to yourself. You use your brilliant logical reasoning. And before you know it, you're standing there believing the world's going to end any minute. And how have you gotten there? You used to be a smart person. But the reason is because your feelings and, of course, as we talked about your identity, they hijack you to the perspective there you start to use your logical reasoning your rationalization to be able to prove yourself as correct and when you recognize that's going on that's when the game changes that's when you could be smarter that's where you communicate better you learn the kinds of skills that you guys teach one of the most important things isn't just how it makes them feel but it's also how they get to make other people feel because when you're in a conversation with someone.

1:00:55The real trick isn't, oh, I was, you know, even when it comes to dating, right, and this whole thing about the chat up culture, it's not what you say. It's how you feel when you say it. And it's how they feel when you say it. That's the critical piece. And when you get that, the same thing is true in negotiations, high stakes negotiations. The same is true in presentations. The same is true in marriage or in different, you know, elements of our everyday lives. How you make people feel matters so much more than people give it credit for. Aristotle knew it thousands of years ago with pathos but we underestimate it in 2026 and that needs to change well thank you for bringing us back there today owen where can our audience find out more about the book and the work you do thank you so much it's been a real pleasure to be on and really loved our conversation you can find out more about me if you go to innerpropaganda.com that's where the book is available there's also a master class and other bonuses there as well um but do check out the book.

1:01:50I put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into it. It's the best thing I've worked on, and I'm really excited for you to get your hands on it. I'm also on OwenFitzBactory.com and on social channels as well, the podcast called Inner Propaganda as well. I love it. Thank you for doing all the great research for the book. I really enjoyed reading it, and I know our audience will too. Thanks so much, everyone. Cheers. Thanks a million, guys. Cheers.

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