Likable Badass (Respect & Influence In The Office) | Alison Fragale

25:20And then the other one is this assertiveness. Are you capable? Are you dependable? Can I rely on you? And when we believe those two things about another human being, you care about me and people other than yourself, and I can rely on you. That's the magic for I'm going to respect you. And you mentioned balance. In theory, right, the idea of a balance suggests they might be on like the end of a seesaw. And so the more I lean into one, the worse I can do at the other. And that's actually not how it has to be. We often act like it's that way. So there's science and psychologists are very good at coming out with very long, multisyllabic terms for things.

26:02But there's a phenomenon in psychology called compensatory impression management, which you can forget as soon as I've said it. But what it means is if I want you to see me as really assertive and competent and strong, my natural tendency will be to show up as less warm and likable and approachable and nice because that feels strong. So I want to be one thing, I show up as less of the other. If I want you to see me as nice and friendly and approachable, I'm going to downplay my capability, my assertiveness, my strength. So oftentimes we treat them as if we're standing on a seesaw. As more we tip to one, the less we get of the other.

26:34But actually, if we look in psychology, they are two independent dimensions. They're like an X and Y axis. So you can be both at one time in someone's brain. There doesn't have to be a trade-off. But it does mean, to your point, you have to be proactive rather than reactive, because not all behaviors necessarily will help you show up as both things. And so what you're trying to think about is how can I, in authentic ways, show up to you in ways that signal to you, I'm both of these things. I'm both very warm and I'm very capable. And you can, you absolutely can do it. Yeah. I think when we think of assertiveness, we often think of self-advocacy.

27:11And once you start only asserting yourself when you're putting yourself first, then of course you lose warmth and approachability and other people start to get nervous around you. But you can be assertive with helping the group. You can be assertive with helping the team and helping other people achieve their goals. So it's moving beyond just thinking about yourself. But unfortunately, a lot of times when we see assertive people, we see them acting in self-serving ways. And for those of us who really care about approachability and warmth first and a more people person, well, that doesn't feel comfortable to me.

27:43I don't want to be advocating for myself. And we see this come up around raise conversations, around promotion and that self-advocacy. And unfortunately, you put yourself in that box of only likable, lacking the assertive side. Well, that doesn't really lead to leadership roles because ultimately managers want to know that you can get the job done and you can rally people around the greater cause, not just be self-serving. Absolutely. But even with things that have huge benefits to the self, like my promotion conversation or my raise conversation, there are ways you could use language that still emphasizes that other oriented component.

28:16So for a promotion, if you're advocating for a new advanced title or role, you could say, look, my skills are really A, B, and C. And essentially, when I'm in this new role, that role also gives me influence to the outside world. it's going to give me opportunities to use skills a b and c in even greater ways for the benefit of the team and the organization so my promotion is not simply a selfless thing but as i move up the skill set that's needed to be successful and deliver value to the company to the client to the team it evolves and that really is where my skill set lies so you can with a shift in language start to tell a story about yourself that is still your promotion is good for you but you're not saying I should get this because I deserve it.

29:00I did all the work. No, it's when I'm in that role, that's what this role entails. It's well aligned with my skillset. We will all benefit from that. I'll get to do what I love, but also you're going to get the best parts of me used highest and best use for the organization. Even with money, you think like, how can I tell a story about salary that's beneficial to anybody other than me? But I give an example. Sheryl Sandberg gave the example and lean in, but I often repeat it, where she says that when she negotiated to get the COO role of Facebook, I guess now Meta, with Mark Zuckerberg, and she was negotiating for a better comp package, she had two-sentence response, which I thought was absolutely brilliant.

29:39She said, you're hiring me to run a deal team, so you want me to be a good negotiator. And by the way, this is the only time you and I will ever be on opposite sides of this table. And I thought that That was a really smart way to frame asking for more money because it's highlighting in two sentences the benefit to the other person, which is, yes, I am a hard negotiator. That might be hard in this conversation, but that's actually a huge asset you're getting with me. And my fierce loyalty in standing up for this organization, you personally, is also going to be something I bring. The only time we'll be on opposite sides of this table.

30:14And I thought, that's just a smart way to highlight the fact that even in a negotiation that feels very much for the self, you can be talking about the fact that I care about you. I want you to be better off. I want you to see the value in me. That brings up a great point for the folks who are nervous about making those choices because they don't want to be seen in a bad light in that office or take on enemies or anything like that. But again, your communication and how you choose to communicate those desires, the things that you want to shoot for, your strategies, if they're inclusive, everyone is on board, well, then you're going to be seen as a leader, not an assertive asshole who is just out for themselves.

30:59And that's incredibly important. And again, another skill that needs to be developed. Absolutely. So as soon as, obviously, one of the easiest strategies that's very authentic to build your status is use something you're uniquely good at to benefit other people. And as soon as it's to their benefit, then obviously it is, you're contributing, you're warm, you're other-oriented, it's inclusive. And it can be anything. It can be something from, you know, a skill that might even sit outside your traditional workplace. So, you know, I talk a bunch, and now people are actually taking me up about it because I talked about it.

31:35I talked about it in the book and now people are writing me. So I actually have a newsletter queued up on this. I was saying that I have three kids. You know, I work a lot. My husband works a lot. I've had to figure out how to have great childcare, like scaffolding in my life that allows me and my family to have a great life and also do all these things I do. And so I felt like this was a skill that I had developed, but it's not a, I'm not a childcare expert. It's not a skill I get paid for, but it's still a skill. Yet in my professional life, I often encounter other people, often women, but not exclusively, who are saying something that leads me to believe that they are struggling.

32:10They talk about the fact that like, they just don't have any work-life balance or they've lost their childcare or whatever it is. And when those things happen, I found that like taking a simple, like just a simple step toward them and saying, hey, this is something where I might be able to help. I've struggled with this a lot. I actually think I've gotten kind of good at it. Could I help you? And people are like, yes, please, please help me. And so I started sharing some resources and just writing them down. Like, here's the contract I use. Here's the script I use when I am like talking to somebody about, do they want to come into our family and like help us out?

32:43Here's the like set of tasks. Here's the like, you know, templates I've created. And so I just share those things. And that idea of, I took something that I had to figure out anyway, that has brought a lot of value to my life and then thought about a way that I could share it with other people. And even if it sits, for example, again, outside the bounds of the actual work we're doing. It's value that's being exchanged between people. And then people think, oh, Alison knows something and she's actually willing to take some time out of her day to help me. That's really the narrative of building status.

33:16And so that's where I always encourage people to look is whatever it is that you feel like you can contribute and help people out if you start to identify those things. And then just take a little bit of initiative. I don't run around like tapping mothers on the shoulder at the park, asking them if I could give them childcare tips. I sit silent and I do my work, but I do listen. And the second I hear somebody on social or in my face-to-face say something that suggests that this is an area where they're struggling, I think, oh, maybe I can help. And I just take a little bit of a step forward. And that's what I encourage people to do, no matter what their skill is, and to recognize that at least as a relationship builder, it doesn't have to originate fully within the bounds of your workplace.

33:59It could be something else that could have value. Yeah, one of our clients, Dave, told us a story where he was applying for a job that was a bit of a reach for his background and his skill set. And he ended up getting the job, but he felt a lot of imposter syndrome starting in this new role. And he was listening through a couple group sessions and meetings over a few weeks, and he found that there was this one nagging issue that everyone complained about. It was tedious work. So he spent a weekend just solving that. And then he came in the next week and was like, hey guys, you know, just want to run this by you.

34:28If you don't like it, no big deal. And he put it in front of them and everyone on the team celebrated him. And immediately it changed his status in that team. So he came in with more power, but he was feeling internally like all of this self-doubt that he was given this power that he didn't deserve. And then that boosted his status. And all of a sudden he started getting promoted faster than he had in his other previous role. Because he recognized, wow, being a little cooperative and listening to when people needed help and then offering that ability to solve those problems that everyone's feeling, but no one has the time to deal with, gave him that instant status boost that then fueled more power, more status, and more promotion.

35:06Totally. So that's so, I mean, I'm so glad you brought this up because you don't, yeah, the skill that you have doesn't have to be one that you had walking in the door. You can develop it if you listen. So we have two examples on that same front. One was when I was in graduate school. And in graduate school, you're like the lowest of the low. You have no status. You have no power. You have no money. You have nothing. And, but you think, and you have all these like very senior people who are completely dependent on what can I possibly give because I'm in this full apprentice mode. Well, when we write academic papers, depending on where you submit them, they have to be submitted in certain kinds of formats.

35:38And one of them is the APA, American Psychological Association. It's nothing but a book. I'm sure it's online now, but like I'm old school. So it was a book and it's like as thick as a phone book of the rules of the most mundane things, like the font you're supposed to use, the margins, whether how many different levels of heading you should be and where they should go, how every reference should be set up. It's just a style guide. Everyone has to do this. When I was in graduate school, I'm pretty good at memorizing stuff. And I needed to know these things because all that stuff would fall to the lowest ranking person, which would be me.

36:07So I just memorized all the rules because that wasn't that hard for me and I needed to do it anyway. And then I became known as the walking APA manual so that people would have a reason to talk to me. And when senior people were formatting their papers, I'm like, does the heading go here or here? I'm like, oh, it goes there. But again, does it matter that they could have memorized it too? No, because in that moment, they didn't want to look it up. I knew the answer. And when they came to me, I solved their problem. And that gave me a reason to talk to people. And I found that it was status building.

36:36So I always say to people, look for, to your point, just like your client did, look for an opportunity where there's a need that hasn't been met yet, you take the initiative, do the work, meet the need. And next thing you know, you're the expert on that thing. I had another woman, similar situation, but she was very entry level in her career, tell me that one of the biggest, most status building things she ever did was she joined an investment firm. And one of the investments before she got there was a complete dog. They had invested in it. The company just completely tanked. It went to zero and everyone was embarrassed by this investment.

37:09And it sat there like a big goose egg on their balance sheet. So every time they went to new investors, they had to explain this terrible investment they made. And she noticed that because it was such a terrible investment, no one wanted to like touch it or talk about it, but she recognized that the clients wanted to talk about it. So she decided that she was going to become the expert in the failed investment, all of which had happened before she was there. So she just did this little forensic accounting, like what would happen? What was the timeline, et cetera, such that when questions were asked and everyone else was like, I don't know, I don't know because we don't want to talk about that thing.

37:42She knew and she became an expert in the thing no one else wanted to talk about. Next thing you know, she said she started getting pulled by the senior male colleagues into these meetings because she was the person who knew about, who could answer all the questions that these people were invariably going to ask. And it was just her keeping her eyes open and she was entry level, brand new. And she's like, this is a hole that I could fill. And I do think that a lot of people who fill those things, they do come from an act of service and curiosity. She wasn't strategically thinking, I do this and I get invited to all the meetings.

38:13She was just like, why doesn't anyone know that? And I'm just going to go dig it up. So that's where, again, authentic, but and strategic, you know, keep your eyes open. Look for a question that no one's answering. When you get curious, answer the question. It's authentic. But then I guarantee you other people will be curious in the answer if you were curious about the answer. So what can we do other than those great examples we just gave to start to build our status, especially for those of us who are new to a team, recognizing that we feel internally a lot of self-doubt. Absolutely. So first of all, I think one thing you got to do is you have to acknowledge what your self-doubt is really about because it can't hold us back.

38:52So I always say the imposter feeling, that imposter syndrome, people think it's a, you feel like I'm not worthy. And a lot of times people think my skills are somehow inferior than whatever, a comparison, what I think they should be, they're inferior. But really, if we think about where imposter syndrome comes from, it actually comes from the gap between what we aspire to, what we expect of ourselves, and where we are. So there's going to be a gap. But the reality is that that gap always should exist because you should always have goals for your achievement, for your knowledge, for your contributions that are beyond what you're doing.

39:27Does anyone say, like, I'm as good as I'm going to get? No one, it's not a fun way to live. Like we're always, achievement is another fundamental human need. We're always striving, which means we have to get comfortable living with a gap between where we are and where we want to be, because that's inevitable. And the best people are going to have it. It drives our performance. When you set ambitious goals, it pushes you forward, but it's still going to leave you with a gap. So I always say that the imposter feeling is a lot like sore muscles after you work out. I actually, I mean, as we talk here, I was running around and I wasn't lifting as much as I typically do.

39:59and I went and saw my trainer on Friday after being on the road a little bit. And I had the feeling over the weekend that I was so sore. My kids were like, why are you stumbling? I'm like, because this is the best my quads will work right now. I was so sore. And when you feel that bad and you're like, I can't sit in a chair without falling down, it doesn't feel great. But you also in your brain, you just discount it because you know there's nothing wrong with me. I actually have that feeling because I did the thing that I'm supposed to be doing. I was making myself stronger and there's some inevitable pain in the process.

40:30that's just how it is so someone as soon as someone explains to you muscle soreness is kind of inevitable when you're making muscle stronger it just it doesn't make you love it but you just don't think about it the same way anymore imposter syndrome is inevitable in the growth in the same way that muscle soreness is inevitable so when you feel it if you can start to recognize i'm not supposed to make it go away i'm just supposed to learn that it's a byproduct of doing what i'm supposed to do so i do think that's really important to kind of think through that because a lot of times that self-doubt keeps us on the sideline.

40:59And it really, in the same way that a muscle soreness is not, does not mean that you should just sit on the couch the rest of your life. Like that's the wrong conclusion. Okay. So then what else can, what else can we do? So there's two main ways that people learn about us. And I think it's important to control and, and be intentional in both ways. One is the things we say and do, how, how we show up with people. So much of what people know about us, it started with us. So how are you going to know that I'm an organizational psychologist. I don't know, because maybe you went on my social media.

41:27Maybe you went on your website. Guess who wrote those things? Me. So you only know that I'm an organizational psychologist because I told you. Like, there's no other source of that or any other thing about me. Like, how do you know I have three kids? How do you know I'm good at childcare? Because I told you. So part of it is going to be our storytelling, the way that we talk about ourselves. And that can come about in a lot of different ways. It comes about, yes, in the conversations we have with people. It comes about in small talk. It comes about in social media. It comes about the things we write about ourselves online.

41:56So when we do those with intention to be able to showcase both capability and warmth, then we start to tell a story. So, you know, if you're on social media and you're posting resources that other people could find valuable, you actually know something and you're sharing it for free with a community for their benefit. That could be a tool that somebody could use. The way that you respond to questions that people ask you, like, how are you? What's up? How's work? How's it going? Right? Those are little bits of opportunity to tell your story. Those are storytelling opportunities. Most of us just throw in the garbage.

42:31We say, I'm fine. I'm good. I'm busy. Nothing really learned there. But with like just little tweaks of authenticity and strategy, you could start to get your story out. So I, not long ago, I ran into a guy that I call, I don't consider him a friend, but I don't know him super well. Came to an event I was hosting. I said, almost like a glorified hello, hey, how was your day today? And he responds to me, Allison, I had the best day today. And now with genuine curiosity, I've got to say, well, what happened? I didn't just say, oh, good luck with that. Like move on. I'm like, I paused. If he had said good, fine or busy, I probably just would have literally kept moving.

43:11But he said, he said something made me curious. And so I wanted to know, I said, what happened that was so good. He basically proceeds to tell me about how he landed a new client and how he's really like ambitious or really excited about the work that this client is doing and how their missions are aligned. It's going to help my friend do better work in the world. In a two sentence, totally socially appropriate response. He was able to tell me that he was doing really well at work and that he cared about a lot of like, you know, doing good in the world. Very capable, very caring. But how did he do it?

43:37He did it by having his own way to start a conversation. And he didn't tap me on the shoulder and he didn't say, hey, guess what? I landed a new client. He just waited until I asked him how he was, which maybe I never did. And that story never came out that night. But when I did, he had something to respond that started a dialogue. And so, you know, noting a point of similarity between you and another person. I always say, like, we're sitting here in our little Zoom-ish type space, right? But remote has taken a lot of stuff away from us. But one of the things it's done is it's made us like voyeurs into people's lives.

44:09Like, you can look into my office right now and you're like, what's that thing on your wall? They're like, why is your couch orange? And you can start conversations with people and get curious about them. And then they get curious about you. And that's how stories get told. So that's one way. The other way that people learn about us is things other people say about us, generally when we're not around. So I think, right, this is how we come together. You, people get referred to you. People get referred to me. Someone says, they're amazing, right? You need to talk to them. And you're like, oh, okay, I do.

44:37So when people talk us out behind our back, they start to build our status before we're even in the conversation, before we're even in the room. And that's something that we can start to influence in two really authentic ways. One is for us to start talking up other people. So when you think people are amazing, tell as many people as you can, tell them, tell anyone who's listening, tell everyone how amazing they are because you're building their status. And that's like riskless. It's super fun way to live. But then guess what happens? the world runs on reciprocity. So people then can't wait to then say something nice about you.

45:12So the more nice things you're saying about other people, the more those people want to even the score by running around telling everybody how great you are and they build your status. And the other way is to ask them. So it's a little scarier, but if someone has the potential to, if they have the ear of an audience and they have the respect of an audience and they could help that audience see you in a way that you deserve to be seen, to ask them to share that message, share the message of your great work. So you were saying a lot of people you work with have their heads down doing great work.

45:42They should, and that's amazing. And then maybe what they could do when they lift up their head is to say to other people, I've been working so hard. I'm not great at publicizing the work that I do, but it has to be known. For me, I always say to people, people can't rely on you for help if they don't know what you're good at. So you got to tell them. And to enlist the help of those people who do respect you to then build your respect with other people. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. That's Mint Mobile's whole thing. Their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS.

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49:16It's about feeling secure in yourself and your relationships again. Don't put your love life on hold. take back control of your confidence and intimacy. Get up to 95 % off treatment with Rex MD. Visit rexmd.com slash charm. That's rexmd.com slash charm. See full details and usage at rexmd.com. Prescription required. Results may vary. We do a lot of storytelling with our clients. Those sessions are great because for a lot of them, they never really thought about how to articulate their origin story or the lessons that they learned so they can share those stories with other people and sell themselves without bragging, but also the ability to tell a story of what your dreams are so that you can get other people involved.

50:07And as you mentioned, reciprocity works. So by having these stories ready to go, articulated and concise and get to the point, then they roll off the tongue. And then all of a sudden, everyone else wants to share their origin story or how they learned something or their dreams. So it helps them to practice some of these. And when you think about all of the interactions you have and the stories that are told, you know what people are going to ask you. We all do. So to take some time and to write these stories out, practice telling them, and you will see everything change. You will see your status change in front of people.

50:50And we've said this a million times on the show, and you articulate it beautifully, is if we don't articulate who we are to other people, they're going to attribute a story to us. Absolutely. Stories get told, right? It's just a question of what role you play in the process. So on that note, I would say one simple thing to do is meet more people, talk to more people, and talk to them in low-risk places. So you should never go to the airport without, like, talking to the person next to you on the plane or negotiating for something at the counter. Because you'll never see these people again if you don't want to.

51:23And the idea of practicing telling your story, and if you come across as, like, a little too braggy on the plane or a little bit too uninspiring, no big deal. You could literally walk off and you'll never see them. But you might see them and you might actually get some benefits. So one of the ways that we can get more people building our status for us is simply knowing more people. So the whole idea of building a network, which we've all been told, it does a variety of things for us. But I always say people can't talk you up if they do not know you exist. So step one, bring people into it. But I often talk about, and I wrote about her in my book, a friend of mine that has become as open tremendous doors for me in my career.

52:01and we're both speakers and educators in the same field, but I met her at an airport bar. I took the last seat in the lounge. It was at a bar. I'm an introverted person, even though I talk for a living, but she was next to me chatting up the bartender and I overheard a little bit of their conversation. It was just enough to get me to turn to her and start chatting with her. And I started chatting. By the end of the conversation, we realized we had all these points of connection. And to this day, like some of the biggest stages I've spoken on and the biggest, like, you know, I do a lot of work for women.

52:31The groups that I've, audiences I've ever talked to came from introductions that she made because I turned to a stranger in an airport bar. Now, I've had many more conversations that ended the second my flight was called and I never talked to them again, but the effort is so low. I call it like productive procrastination. That if you're in a situation where your alternative is to just doom scroll your phone, is there something better I can be doing that doesn't feel like work? Chatting up this stranger doesn't feel any harder than that. and but it could lead to something a lot better than simply doom scrolling my phone so i try to use all these little opportunities i have including like one of my rules is when i'm standing at a gate to board a plane because i fly a lot is there's very little you can do when you're standing there waiting for them to call your boarding group like there's just not much and so i just use that as an opportunity to like reconnect with people on text on social who haven't i talked to in a while send off a few messages and as soon as they call my gate i shut it down and i'm done and I go, or my boarding group, I just go get on the plane.

53:27So those little moments of productive procrastination can be like little moments where we get to practice a skill, where a new relationship is built, et cetera. Just kind of reclaim those in your day and you don't have to do much else with all the other time that you're actually working. With a lot of our clients being high achievers and focused on moving forward and growing, a blind spot that we've recognized a lot of them have is they don't share the stories of what they're working on. They focus on the stories of accomplishment, when actually the stories of what you're working on create the opportunity for connection.

54:00So I have a client who's doing her second half marathon and she doesn't want to tell anyone about it because she's not proud of her time. She just picked up running. It's a long distance and she sees her coworkers running marathons, doing X, Y, Z. So she doesn't share it at all. And I've encouraged her over time to share a little bit more of the story just with her coworkers of what she's working on. Just like, man, I'm beat from doing a long run over the weekend, you'd be surprised how many people take interest in. Well, how many miles are you want to join? And all of a sudden, a coworker invited her to a run club.

54:28And she had never talked about running before. But I think we attribute too much of the storytelling idea around I have to create a narrative of achievement. And if that story doesn't actually showcase or highlight achievement in some way that I can compare or rank myself to other people, then I'm going to keep it close to the chest. And unfortunately, in keeping it close to the chest, your coworkers, your colleagues don't know you that well. And when they don't know you that well, they can't give you status. It's not to say you have low status, but they can't give you high status either because they don't know you.

54:56A hundred percent. So being willing to share these things. Yeah. Because no, you would never get it. First of all, you never get invited to the running club if people don't know you run. So that's the first idea. The other thing though, is there are moments of choice here. And I was just talking to somebody else about this because she basically was telling me she had an internship in between two years of graduate school. And she was, she said, I was very honest in my internship that I didn't think I was good at a certain set of skills. She didn't tell me what they were. She said, but now I think I've been labeled or branded as not being good at those things.

55:25And I said, well, I'm sure it's overcomable, but in general, here's my advice. You may not think you're a great runner. You may not think you're a good, whatever her skills were, let's say they were public speaking, but there's different ways that you could put that out in the world. You could say, Hey, I'm new to running. I'm really excited about it. I'm loving my growth in this area. You don't, that that's equally true, but a different message than I suck as a runner. You don't have to go around putting yourself down. You can still have growth while simply being silent about what you think your current level of achievement is, right?

55:57This is an area where I'm really committed to getting better. I want to be an amazing public speaker. This is my focus of growth over this internship or the next year. That can acknowledge that you're trying to improve without putting it in people's minds. I'm bad. And so when people are sharing their things they're working on, I think sometimes just a couple shifts in the words you use. Because people say that because they think, I don't want someone else to think I'm bad. I'm going to tell them first. But then when you do that, all you do is put that narrative in their head when chances are most people think running a marathon at any pace or half marathon is a pretty impressive endeavor.

56:35And they're impressed, so no need to tell them that. So just shifting the language, you can be growth-focused and humble without a narrative of, look how bad I am at this. And every expert runner remembers their first race. So even if it's just your first, you know, and you say, hey, my fingers have been really sore because I'm learning guitar over the weekend. No one's going to expect you to pick a guitar at work and belt out a song, but every first-time guitar player can remember what it was like building those calluses on their fingers as they're learning the chords. So recognizing that even if it's your first time and you're learning something, and it feels like you're starting out, but everyone else around you is advanced and they've been doing it longer, they can all relate to that first time that they picked up something, that they started running, that they signed up for their first race.

57:18And something to add to that as well is when you share that you're learning and you're new at something, and this is taking a lot of effort, when you go out to support that person who may be playing their first show or doing their first race, and you take time out of your day to support them in that, that's huge to that person because they share that vulnerability of being new, at trying this thing, at trying to get better. And then the other part of that, especially in any sort of new creative endeavors, which is how people, when they're just learning something and they are putting their own touch on it to make it, or it just becomes unique to them.

58:07And to be able to point that out and to show them that the way they did that was unique to them and that's something special. And to lean into that, this means a lot for those folks who are going out of their way to do these things. It's scary to learn and put yourself out there like that. Absolutely. The other psychological phenomenon that's really at work here that we need to remember is similarity. The greatest basis of liking and attraction that psychology has ever found is similarity. Birds of a feather flock together. As soon as you're like me in some way, I like you more. So if I find out that you play guitar and I play guitar, that's a point of connection that draws us together.

58:44So the other reason to share this kind of information, even things that sit outside the workplace, is not just the growth and the support, but also the idea that it allows people to see the connections they have with us. If they know nothing about us, then they cannot find our similarity. And in particular, you know, I often work with people who look different than the people they work with. And I say, if you look different and you do nothing to put yourself out there, the only thing those other brains are going to see is difference. And people don't like difference. People like similarities. So when you say, oh, why is there this, you know, boys club where all the men are hanging together?

59:16It says, well, they don't think that you have things in common with them, but you do. And so, you know, I always say, like, if you go to my LinkedIn or if you go to my website, you see things that are related to my work. But then I have a huge set. I have sections of stuff that are things that no one needs to know, like that I love the Golden Girls and the Peloton and sushi and Hallmark movies. And that I consider myself a slow runner and a professional app race skier. And that stuff is, none of it is work related. It's all you might say like frivolous and nonsense, but I'll tell you what. I can point to every single little piece of myself that I've put out there like that, where someone has written to me and established a professional connection because they felt personally connected to one of those things.

59:57And I get all the time someone asking me to potentially do work for them. And they say, P.S., what's your favorite golden girl? Like, you know, mine is Sophia. And so those sharing of the stuff, not just the professional, but the personal allows people to say, oh, that's how we're the same. And you obviously, every time you have that instant lift, I say, I have three kids. And obviously I connect with people with kids, but every time I meet somebody who has three, it's like, oh, you have three, I have three. And then we get into this little like comparison of parenting three kids, it can be anywhere.

1:00:27So those things, I run, whatever it is, that also is the science of similarity, allowing people to see themselves in us and they connect to us that way. And that creates the opportunity for other promoters. So if you don't feel comfortable bragging about yourself, having that similarity cements in that person's mind a likability that you also want to share their hard work in the workplace because they're a professional Opry skier as well. So understanding that these little bits of personality go a long way outside of just the work you're doing and the task you're accomplishing and the goals that you're driving forward for the company.

1:01:01And for a lot of our clients, that other promoter concept is tricky, especially if you're a junior in your career. It can feel really odd at first to ask someone to promote on your behalf. So how do we identify good other promoters and how do we incentivize them to actually share this message if we ourselves are not good at selling storytelling or bragging about ourselves? Yeah, I mean, it's one is other promoters are always going to be able to do it more effectively and more efficiently. That does not absolve us of our own responsibility to start telling our story. But how would I identify somebody, especially if I was like new, starting out in my careers, you just need to pay attention to figuring out is there one person that you think really values you and respects you and just get one.

1:01:46And so when you have one, whether that is your boss, whether that's someone who considers themselves a mentor, maybe that person sits outside your current organization, because again, yeah, you might be concerned about promoting within your, the walls of your company, but, but maybe you have to start with something else. You might just start with somebody who, who you worked for a long time ago and you've developed a, you know, kind of a relationship with over the years. Any, I would start with anybody you can identify. You say, that person really respects me and thinks I do good work and is interested in seeing me succeed.

1:02:18That's going to be the first person I'm going to approach. And I'm going to ask them to do something very simple and easy. We have to recognize people like clarity. If we like someone and care about them, we want to make them happy. But we do not get up all day, every day and think, how can I make their life better? We're worried about our own lives. So if someone comes to you and says, hey, you know what would really help me? And then fill in the blank. They give you something that's really simple for you to do. You're like, sure. Thanks for telling me because I want to be helpful to you. I didn't, you know, I don't want to, I can't do anything difficult.

1:02:51Now you've told me something I could do that's really easy. So fill in the blank. You know, here's what could be really helpful. I felt like I've had a lot of success on this project. I think you agree. I think you, you know, we've been able to work really well together. It's hard for me and I'm not, I'm not senior enough yet that I can go into audiences and publicize my work. But I also know that if people, this is back to telling a story about how it benefits other people. If people don't know I'm good at this, I may not get more opportunities like this in the future. People won't know to lean on me.

1:03:18People won't know to come to me. People won't know to put me in those situations. Given that I am good at this, I think it would really help everybody if I could, you know, continue to rely on these skills. And so something really simple, like I know you're going to be in this meeting next week. If there's an opening to talk about this work and mention my name and just get my name out there, that would be really valuable. And if there's not, there's not. And again, I do this all the time. I never ask somebody unless I am 100 % sure that they really respect me and they're on my side. And I tell them what I want.

1:03:53And more often than not, people are excited to report back to you. I did it and it was great. Like I totally went in there. I, you know, I got to, I got to drop, you know, how well you were doing because people want to be helpful. And even if they don't, I'm still getting to tell my story to them and still getting to build, build that story. And so it does take a little bit of courage, but everything is an experiment. And this is where I think the psychologist in me is advantaged is when you run experiments for a living, you start to realize like you tweak a variable, you see what works. If it doesn't work, you do something different next time.

1:04:22So that's just one relationship, one time, do one thing. and see what happens. And if you get a good result, you're like, oh, that was great. But since I've been talking about this, now what happens is people report back to me. And do I get more success stories than failures? Probably because people want to tell me that they're trying things I've said and they're working. But I've been getting these messages from people who said, I just texted my boss and told him when he was going into the big senior leaders meeting to drop my name. And my boss texted me back and was like, mission accomplished.

1:04:51I did it. People want to help you. And so it is a little scary, but that's where I say, if it feels too scary and you're like, Alison, there's no way I'm doing that. Fine. Don't do it. Then all I ask of you is instead to just talk up other people and start doing that. That one's not scary. And a lot of that is going to come back to you with them reciprocating to you. And we can dial down the scary by first soliciting their perspective on it. So you can say, you know, on my last performance review, I got some feedback that they felt I wasn't taking enough initiative on presenting. I just got back from a presentation that you were in.

1:05:28How do you feel I did in that area? I've been leaning in over the last two quarters or the last year to really grow in this area. The second they say, actually, I thought it was incredible. Then you could say, wow, you know, it'd be really helpful because I've been trying to get this promotion. I've had this feedback and working in this area. If you could share that with the managing partner, whoever is in charge of that promotion, that's going to actually be less scarier than you assuming if you don't know that am I good at this or not? And they're going to feel really good after giving you that feedback to be like, yeah, of course I could share it with other people.

1:06:00I didn't realize that that was the perspective internally. I hadn't been involved in that review process. That's totally right. And if you want to, you can add in a little honest flattery because everyone likes flattery, which is your voice is really respected around here. So when the things you say people listen to. So if you can call attention to this, It would go a long way in shaping how other people see it. And so always making an appeal, to the extent it's true, to their status because they're going to be able to have a voice in a room that you don't. And again, everyone loves flattery. It's like, you've just told me I'm amazing and everyone will listen when I speak and I'm going to go say this thing.

1:06:37And yeah, I'm much more likely to do it. And I think about all the people that you think positively about. I mean, the list would be so long. some of these people, you're not even like thinking of them, like being able to think of their names right now. But how many people today did you go on record, like telling the world they were amazing? Probably only a very small percentage of the people you actually think are amazing. And so sometimes all it needs is a little tip from you to pick up the microphone that you're, I mean, you would gladly use whatever platform you had to try to spread the news of the great work they're doing, but you have no idea that at this moment that has value unless they tell you.

1:07:16And then you're like, oh, I'm in. So you're right. Get the feedback, feel confident that this person does respect you. But as soon as you feel confident in that to recognize they're not any different than you. And so if I told you a person that you really value came to you and said, you have a, have a platform that I don't have. What could be so amazing to me is if you would tell people the honest truth about the great work I'm doing in any way that felt authentic to you. How would you feel? You would say, I'm really happy to do that. Well, Johnny and I have loved sharing our platform with you and all the great work that you do.

1:07:50Where can our audience find out more about the book and the work that you do? Absolutely. So my website's always a good spot, like a one-stop shop. So allisonforgale.com. You can learn about my book. You can sign up for my newsletter. It's on Substack. It's free. It's called The Upper Hand. It's behavioral science. to help people, especially women, excel. And then the two social platforms that I'm on, LinkedIn really consistently and Instagram, you can find them directly, but through my website, you can get there. So website is always a good one-stop shop. And you can find all my fun facts, even the ones that I didn't mention here.

1:08:23So including the dessert that I will always order off of a menu and where I got married. So there's that. You can't leave us hanging on the dessert. The answer is bread pudding. I don't know exactly how I came to this, but I have a policy that if there's ever bread pudding on a menu, it doesn't matter. Like if it's 11 o 'clock in the morning or if I'm so stuffed, I can't eat another bite. I order it. And now I'm going to tell you, I got married in Las Vegas. So now you know all the things. Me too. And for me and my wife, it's tiramisu. Oh, that's C. Interesting. So this is another fun fact about me.

1:08:53I love coffee, but hate all coffee flavored foods. Fascinating. Yeah. Obsessed with coffee and don't eat tiramisu. Anyway, we'll have to agree and disagree on that. Great way to drop the mic. Wait, but you got married in Las Vegas? That was this me too thing? Yeah. Oh, amazing. See, there's lots of us out there. Very cool. You guys are awesome. I mean, I, yeah, I'm so happy to get this opportunity. Thank you for everything you do. Well, this was a lot of fun. Yeah. We could have went for hours. We appreciate your time. Absolutely. Great to be here.

1:09:30all right and now's the part of the show where we showcase one of our x factor members take it away dave it was like the start of self-improvement journey you know and a lot of the concepts went so much i remember johnny even said like this is going to take months to years to kick in to really get this shit and he was fucking right then you start like reading more and you start seeing things more you start like testing the waters with little ideas for me i lacked the confidence and i thought that like i was a shitty engineer that i could never get a job at like a fang company or like a unicorn startup where i'm at now and like i was sort of like oh well i'll stay in my even when i moved from pnc uh this was after aoc i still still stood in my little comfort zone but like i moved to like another bank sure i was making like 20 grand more but it was still peanuts compared to what i'm making now right once i jumped ship and realized oh it's kind of just the same everywhere just a little bit different processes and slightly different code base and slightly different architecture then i'm like okay i'll move again and then that job really sucked and i was only there for five months and like now i'm where i'm at and it's like well shit maybe i should move again really it was honestly for me the biggest difference was the lack of confidence in myself to know that i can make it elsewhere i felt like no one else would ever want to hire me because i'm i'm just this like low value person like why would anyone want to hire me i'm lucky to have this position and then versus the mindset after it's like no bitch they're lucky to have me and like it sounds easy that's a really tough switch of the mind that it takes a lot of time to do that it takes like being too cocky or being too like i fucking go and it's like whoa dude like slow down a little bit like when you have someone check you it's like okay i need to go back a little bit right so yeah thank you dave and it was a pleasure working with you too and good luck to all of your future endeavors if you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show.

1:11:37It would mean the world to us and it helps others find the show. If you've listened this far, you're probably somebody who understands the value of building meaningful connections and expanding your network. Well, do we have something special for you today? Imagine a world-class networking program that helps you grow your social capital, not just through random handshakes and business cards, but through your general interests and core values. Introducing the Social Capital Training, your gateway to mastering the art of authentic networking. Whether you're a professional looking to climb the career ladder, an entrepreneur seeking partnerships, or just somebody who wants to enhance their social skills, our free Social Capital Training is designed for you.

1:12:17It's not about collecting contacts, it's about cultivating connections that matter. What makes our program stand out? we focus on leveraging your unique interests and values to create powerful, lasting relationships. Ready to take your networking game to the next level? Head on over to theartofcharm.com slash SC and watch your free social capital training today. Don't miss out on this opportunity to transform your social life. That's theartofcharm.com slash SC for your free social capital training. Elevate your network, elevate your life with social capital. Before we head out, A huge thank you to our producers, Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery.

1:12:57Until next time, go out there and have an epic week.

1:13:21Cause you had your taste of black on the yesterday. Yeah, but I remember you. Oh, yeah, I remember you. You were my friend. But I found you all the way.