Modern Dating Is Broken | Paul Eastwick

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33:42Johnny:And they'll put aside their social life to earn more. They'll put aside even dating to earn more because they feel like and with the funhouse mirror of social media, seeing who's popular and what they're sharing. Well, the guys with the most money, the fanciest cars are the ones who get the beautiful women and the beautiful women only want the eight pack based on what I'm seeing on social media. There is absolutely evidence that social media and the dating apps in particular exaggerate gender differences, exactly like the ones you're talking about. Probably the most dramatic one is, you know, look back back when i was in graduate school we conducted speed dating research studies you know so speed dating was big and we said this looks like fun yeah right yeah it's coming back honestly because people want to be off the apps good thing because what you're what you see i mean we ran all these speed dating events for these undergrads and you know i don't know like i think sometimes people think like oh it's like a meat market it's like it's not what it is at all it's people struggling to find something to talk about in four minutes.

34:48And yeah, having the right social skills, being able to like navigate a conversation with somebody to find something to talk about in that short period of time is a really useful skill. And those people tended to do better. But generally speaking, men and women can connect in that short period of time if they're doing it in person. And so the most exaggerated gender difference online is that, look, if at our speed dating studies, men say yes to the partners they're meeting, like it's like 50 50. And that's true on the apps as well. But for women, when they're meeting men in person, it's more like like one third, two thirds, one third get a yes, two thirds get no.

35:28But on the apps, it's like one in 20, they say yes to. That's dramatic. And that suggests that there's a real tendency to be super selective, focus just on the quantifiable qualities that somebody has. And that is not how dating is supposed to be. And it is not the way we have classically done it, whether I'm talking about 20 years ago or I'm talking about, you know, 200 ,000 years ago.

36:02Johnny:It's frustrating to be experiencing that. You know, I was fortunate myself to to find my partner without an app before the apps really took off. But that's the norm right now. Yeah. Right. That that is the norm when when people are single looking for people is to experience that one out of every 20. And if you are the 19 that are said no to, it's really hard to then find your value to find motivation to date. And now we're seeing the declining birth rate. We're seeing people put off marriage and having kids later and later in life. And this is exposing a real issue societally for us. The rise of singles, how this is connected to our use of social media is totally fascinating.

36:46I mean, my semi hot take on a lot of this is that I, I doubt that the rise of singles is being linked to men's like lowering educational, lowering income prospects specifically. And the reason I say that is because when you look at people interacting face to face, there is no gender difference in the extent to which attributes like appealing like ambition or successful those attributes are just as appealing for men as they are for women so i think if these men you know maybe they got an associate's degree instead of a bachelor's degree like they're gonna do okay if they're meeting people and so the problem where we're you know if we're looking at things like declining birth rates and saying why is this happening I am much more worried about the tendency to just spend time online, the tendency, the tendency to retreat into online worlds or just using online dating and finding yourself in the pool of 19 out of 20.

37:54That's what I would worry about more. I think, I think we can, we can probably do a lot just by helping people. Yeah. Even some of these men that are feeling a little bit left behind, if we can get them out there and socializing again, I think that will go a long way to fixing some of this i agree good luck with getting them out there i know that's the real problem right right it's like it's like what does it take to get people to get people outside again but i think but but the funny thing is is like it's one of these things where when you do it you're like why did i put this off like why did i put off joining this league like this is fun there seems to be organic movements that are propelling that and hopefully you know they they catch fire because, you know, that's how you're going to build intuition.

38:41That's how you're going to build character. That's how you're going to learn.

38:45Johnny:I love to unpack relationship trajectories because I feel like this is another one of those areas where we feel like things should be linear and they should be moving based on what we see in other couples, based on what we see in Hollywood, what we see culturally. And in actuality, that's not what the science shows. It's amazing how idiosyncratic these trajectories can be and how very hard they can be to predict. So one fascinating thing, I mean, the way I got into studying this particular topic was that I was really mystified by this really common distinction. It exists in the science. It exists in like really nasty forms online.

39:28mine, but it's that this idea that, oh, some people are good for a short term relationship and other people are good for a long term relationship. And so what that implied to me was that, like, well, you should meet somebody and kind of figure out, like, I don't know, like, which category are you in? And then as soon as you figure that out, then you pursue one kind of relationship with them, but not the other. And as I, like, reflected on my experiences and other people experiences, there's so much like, well, I don't know. Like, I'm kind of into them. Like, I'm attracted to them. But I don't know, could we make this work?

40:08They seem different from me in these core ways. I wonder if that's a problem. And you spend more time with them and you kind of figure it out as you go. And it was this very new way of thinking about how relationships unfold, that it's this step by step process, like almost like a ratchet but it's like a ratchet that can unravel at any second where you both people are just trying to figure out what is this thing and what we kind of discovered was that short-term relationships flings even one night stands that's the part that can be a little surprising to people all of these things are like you know you got partway through this process and you were like, this is OK.

40:52I'm maybe like into you sexually, but I'm going to tap out like this is this is actually not something I'm super enthusiastic about, whereas long term relationships tended to be these relationships where you just you just kept going. Right. I mean, you know, you met at a club and it was fun. And then all of a sudden you're like, actually, I like spending time with you. Like, let's go to Ikea. And these this process is very, very common. But the tricky thing about it is like you don't always know where things are going. You kind of just have to ride it out.

41:28Johnny:Many of us want that certainty, right? You want to know. And that's why we're so quick to fall into these traps online, the alpha beta, the hookup versus the stable, dependable guy, you know, and much of us then turning that on ourselves and the self-judgment in that of like, oh, I guess I am just the hookup guy. You know, the last three opportunities I had were just ended in a fling or I couldn't get past the first date. This can be pretty demoralizing. Like when whenever you feel like other people have put you in some kind of category, people aren't categories. I mean, you're just like full stop.

42:04Like, that's not what we are. Everything psychological is dimensional. And and there are many, many, many different kinds of dimensions. I mean, it's such a psychological given what I'm saying that it's amazing to me. We even flirted with the scientific idea of there being like, oh, you know, CADs and dads are, you know, good short term and good long term partners in the first place. It's just not true whatsoever. But it can be hard to snap out of that categorical, that categorical way of thinking, whether it's about yourself or whether it's about other people. It can be very, very tempting.

42:47Johnny:It's important to look at it in a more layered way. you know what you're talking about here like they just chose to keep going the relationship actually became long term because both parties were like hey i'm i'm liking this i'm going to keep going well we are layered as well so part of our dating experience should be showing our layers looking for the other person's layers finding those layers that actually lead to us moving forward but along with that many of us feel like we're on this search for compatibility like i just have to find the match, the one that like fits my jigsaw puzzle piece perfectly.

43:23What's so tricky about this search for compatibility is that that is often what it feels like. And it's not totally wrong, but where the metaphor breaks down is that you're not looking for somebody who was like pre-crafted to fit you. that ultimately is going to be frustrating and probably won't work. It's better to think about this slow construction of a thing that subsumes the two of you, the relationship that is bigger than both of you. You're creating something that you want to work and that that's actually where most of compatibility comes from. it's a uh i think if you think about this idea it's um encouraging also a little bit surprising because it suggests that geez under the right circumstances you mean i i could have made it work with anybody like if i just had constructed the right thing i'm not exactly saying that but i'm like kind of saying that because i do think again to go back to like ancestral context you didn't have many choices.

44:32But what you did have was time to construct things. And with enough stops and starts and enough trial and error and enough like building intuition, people can get pretty good at building relationships with other people that work well, that give you both what you need. And so a lot of times, like when people are struggling out there, I like to remind them like you're not like hunting for buried treasure as much as you're kind of an architect with no blueprint. And if you think about it that way, I think it's people will find it becomes a little bit easier. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card and earn up to 5 % cash back with Venmo stash.

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46:04Johnny:Well, that hunter metaphor is what a lot of men think they're supposed to be in the dating landscape. They think that evolutionary dating advice says we are the dominant predators. We have to be alpha. We have to go out after what we want. And you offer a very different picture of what this actually looks like scientifically. When we think about how we evolved to be men, I think there is a tendency to think in the terms that you just described. We are supposed to dominate and we are supposed to lead and we are supposed to intimidate. And this is how we win and achieve success. some of the scientists in my sphere also talk in these terms i think this is in some ways exactly wrong it is exactly backwards because if you look at the evolutionary trajectory so now i'm talking about hundreds of thousands of years millions of years if you look at what happened to the males and the men, okay, the male hominids who lived a million, two million years ago.

47:18It was not the case that the strongest, most dominant ones were the ones who were more likely to survive. In fact, it was the opposite. It was the smaller ones. It was the gentler ones. It was the ones who were good around kids, the ones who were less aggressive that the females tended to prefer. We lost our sharp canines. That's because we don't fight for mates in the way that our ancestors did six million plus years ago. We got smaller. We men got smaller relative to females over the course of the last several million years because we were selected for our gentleness around offspring. We were selected to be parents.

48:03You don't want male chimps parenting. You don't want male gorillas parenting. They're not trustworthy at all around infants. Men can be pretty good as parents. So that's our trajectory. Our trajectory is to, you know, to be protectors. Yes. But also to be, you know, people who are helpful for our families and our social groups and to feel valued by our social groups. It's not to like go out and kick ass like that's that's old stuff. It's certainly not that men can be great parents. It's that men need to be. Yeah. But when it comes to the evolutionary piece of it, there's so many variables that we have to take into account that play themselves out today as well.

48:48Why is there a population collapse going on in all of these first world countries? Well, it's because we don't need to be nurturing of a tribe that can protect us and help us and achieve success. that has always been there. And in the case of every society is rising, it had always been the dense cities that stopped having children while the rural areas and the, and the people that needed to depend on each other in the tribe. And again, you need to be an understanding and gentle man to survive in the, in that atmosphere, because it was about community that allowed you to be successful and out there on the range?

49:33I think this is an important piece of it that's very easy to lose because in modern urban environments, it's very easy and kind of paradoxically, but it's very easy to retreat, right? It's easy to retreat from a sense of broader community. I'm very fortunate. I live in Sacramento. Sacramento is an unusual place because I sometimes feel like I'm in an identifiable small neighborhood, even though technically I'm in a, you know, a mid-sized U.S. city. It's kind of a remarkable thing. But a lot of dense urban centers don't feel like that. You don't know your neighbors at all. And that can make this very challenging.

50:15And it pulls us toward things that aren't about, you know, that aren't about family that are about these more external trappings of success. And so when the external trappings of success become the draw rather than community, family, giving, et cetera, I do. Yeah, that can be a major problem. Just another example of that. I go to visit my father in the summer and I and I grew up in a small town outside of Pittsburgh in the foothills of the Appalachians. And I would stop at the dive bar on my Sunday walks, just have a beer or two in the middle of it before going home. and the bartender that I was always chatting, visit with, she knew everybody's life that went on in that town.

51:02And she was telling me so-and-so hasn't come in lately. They had a heart attack last month. I have to check in on them. That sense of community blew my mind because I had lived in large cities since I've been an adult. And you're not going to hear that too often in any mega city. And that, which goes to what you were saying, which is you can hide in the big city. There's too much going on. Everyone else has their own dramas to be dealing with where it's the small town. Hey, I'm waiting for a drama to get involved with. I can't, being involved in other people's lives in those in that situation just brings so much purpose and meaning this is going to sound like so quaint and so like like steven spielberg but like in in my little part of the city um basically everybody walks their kids to school it's like a neighborhood school and everybody walks their kids there and a lot of like things get done i don't know how to put it any other way like things get done and things get discussed among the parents as they're like walking their kids to school.

52:21And it feels like such a bygone era. I mean, I'm very, very fortunate that I get to be a part of something like that. But it really does foster a sense of like we're in this together and like, oh, I meant to check in with you about this. Like those kinds of interactions are really important. And when we just like when we all retreat, we really lose something valuable.

52:43Johnny:What we have lost in a lot of ways is that communal norm. And now we've seen the rise of scorekeeping. And especially if we're serially dating, you know, we can feel like we're being taken advantage of and we have to track how much effort's being put in. And we we search for equality over the actual person that we are a great match for and we are worth committing to a relationship with. And I've had numerous clients over the years get frustrated that they feel like, hey, things aren't even for me. I'm putting myself out there. I'm paying for dates. I'm doing a lot here to try to win an attractive mate.

53:20Johnny:And I'm on the long term. I'm losing because of it. It's tough. And it's tough when you feel like the world is it's like has these gendered rules that are stacked against you. I hold out hope that there are still many pockets out there which are less gendered. I mean, I think that if we're talking about like serial first date after serial first date, that's probably going to contribute to more of this tension, more of this sort of, you know, zero sum. you know men are trying to get this from women and women are trying to get these things from men and the genders feel like their intention as opposed to mixed gender networks I'm so fond of these studies showing that you know if you look at men's romantic prospects the more women friends that they have and I do mean like actual friends like not people that you want to date or that you're trying to date, but actual friends, these men have the best romantic prospects.

54:30And it's, it's, again, it's not because you're going to date these women. It's that they're going to introduce you to people who are going to introduce you to people and you're going to date them. And that, that doesn't feel zero sum. In fact, you might be helpful, like introduce and hurt us some people that she might hit it off with. Boy, if we can create social circles like that, I think we're all going to find ourselves in a much, much better situation.

54:57Johnny:Well, with that, the friend zone is something that men actively avoid. And the second that they feel that they're in the friend zone, they will cut that woman out of their life. Yeah. And it's not about, hey, I can't pursue you anymore. It's like, I don't even want to be friends with you because you put me in this friend zone and you're actually arguing that there's an asset and it creates more optionality and opportunity for you. So it should be celebrated instead of rejected. Do not fear the friend zone. You are going to be OK. Now, the friend zones sucks if you are super into this person and you can't imagine being with anybody else.

55:39And, you know, I've got I've got stories in the book where I like teetered on the edge of this where I was so into this person and it felt so painful to to just be friends with them. It felt like I felt insulting. I felt like a failure. But it's like I took a deep breath and I took a couple months away and realized, yeah, but she's pretty cool. I would actually like to be friends with this person. And it was really eye opening in many ways. Like then she introduces me to all these other people. and like my social skills grow it ended up being totally fine but it's it it is almost like you have to like go through this like river of vulnerability first where you let yourself like feel the rejection it feels crappy and you push through to the other side and you discover what it means to be friends with somebody anyway even if there's no romantic prospects there so So like, don't be afraid of it.

56:48Go go through it, work through it. And if you get to the other side, you'll discover like, oh, my social possibilities can expand. Maybe with this person, you know, playing a peripheral role. And that is OK. There we're not at men are not at war with women and vice versa. Like we can all help each other out. Help us here.

57:10Johnny:Like, where is the data at currently? because I feel like right now what is told and sold to us by these online dating apps who are obviously making a lot of money harvesting our data around dating is that that is the surest way to find that person. That is the surest way right now to get that match. Whereas obviously, traditionally, we were finding it through weak ties. We were finding it through network effects more than any app or marketplace. And it was certainly not about lying about our height and changing what we look like with filters to get there. And yet because of that, it's now become so pervasive that men are rejecting those social ties.

57:48Johnny:They're choosing to forego socializing, thinking that, well, that's not how I'm going to find this partner. And I really want to start a family. I really want to partner. The best data I've seen these days, certainly consistent with the idea that online dating is the most common way that meet people. Sorry, the most common way that people meet each other now. It has not displaced the other ways. It is still true. The people meet through friends and they meet through work and they meet through all these other avenues. Those avenues aren't gone. They're like second and third place and the margins are close.

58:24So you can use the apps, but the other ways still exist. I think a lot of what has happened is that, look, the average online dating user spends 90 minutes a day on the apps. That's like a lot of time. I can tell you 25 years ago when I was single and looking, I wasn't spending 90 minutes looking for a part that doesn't even like compute. Like I might be hanging out with friends at a bar. Does that count as my 90 minutes? 90 minutes sitting there on your phone swiping, doing one thing. So we're spending an inordinate amount of time on a process that really has no other rewards other than, well, you're using your phone and it feels addictive.

59:09So that's the thing that has changed and that has really captured our brains. But the other avenues are still there. My hope is that people are going to figure out how to, if they can't throw their phone into the ocean, and I get it, you can at least supplement the online ways with the old ways. And I like, yeah, right. I mean, I'm, I sound like a Gen Xer, but like, don't forget to go out and socialize and meet people and spend time outside as well, even if you're going to be using the apps. But, but I think, I think we're going to get there. My guess is that online dating will still be around, but it's going to like plateau It's something like, OK, this is how a third of couples meet.

59:58But two thirds are coming from the old ways.

1:00:00Johnny:One thing that I'd like to shift at least our audience's view on, and I think this is really interesting science, is the apps right now are first impression only. They are split second decisions happening. You get one strike and you're out. In person, the research shows that third impression actually matters the most. You get three strikes. So when we are now reorganizing our life around the apps, we are mathematically actually robbing ourselves of more opportunity than we realize. And I know the in-person rejection stings. I know we try to avoid it because it feels like it has even more social consequence, but it's less likely in person because people are giving us way more benefit of the doubt.

1:00:46Give people three impressions for your own sake, because honestly, you don't know how you feel actually all that well after meeting somebody one time, especially if that one time is like, OK, I swiped yes on you and we're meeting for coffee and I have 20 minutes before I got to get to my meeting. and so like give me the stats go go go like your impression of that person is not stable i mean that's how we talk about in the science it's not stable and what that means is that there's a lot of potential for change if i made you meet them a second time and our impressions get more stable over time i mean if you've been with your partner for 10 years on 10 years plus one day odds are your impression is going to be pretty similar to what it was the day before.

1:01:42But but it's sort of like this. You got to sort of get up to this plateau of stability to know whether you like somebody or you don't. And so that's where I say, like, three dates is like pretty good. Right. I mean, 10 10 dates, you'll really know. But three dates is way better than one for knowing how you feel about somebody. And the thing that where that's hard for people is that, well, what that means is that if that coffee date, that 20 minute coffee date, you were kind of, eh, that means you got to do the second one. It doesn't mean you cut people off if they don't exceed some high threshold on the first one.

1:02:20It means you give everybody three chances. And again, there are portions of our social world that force that where you're going to meet this person three times, whether you want to or not, to the extent that people can do this while dating and still feel safe and they've got the time, I strongly advocate for giving people that many chances.

1:02:40Johnny:There's one thing that I'd love your perspective on, and we've seen the rise of it again, going back to this categorization of people, especially since we work in self-development and many of our clients want to improve themselves, is the rise of attachment theory. and then the judgment we place on ourselves, labeling ourselves as I'm anxious this, I can't be who this partner needs. So I have to work on myself first. I have to fix my anxious attachment before I can go get that partner. Working on your issues, it's just kind of a good idea. I mean, again, therapy, thumbs up, go for it. Is it a prerequisite?

1:03:26I think the thing that we kind of miss, And look, attachment theory is absolutely core to my world. It's core to the science. We use it all the time. But these styles, they're less stable than we think. Or maybe another way of thinking about it is that we all contain multitudes. I know what it's like to be avoidant. I would call myself a secure person. But I know what it's like to be avoidant. And I know what it's like to be anxious too. And my relationships with different people, especially at different points in those relationships, could have been any and all of those things. And it's our close relationships that change how we view ourselves.

1:04:04Like I view myself as a secure person today, but that's because I have a long-term secure relationship now. You talked to me 10 years ago, you talked to me 20 years ago, I might've seen like an avoidant mess or an anxious mess. So it's like therapy is good, but a lot of times the way that people change is through getting involved. in close relationships, giving other people the opportunity to change how you see yourself. And it can feel very upsetting and it makes people feel very vulnerable, but it's an important part of the whole process. When I hear attachment theory, it leads to all of this of self-discovery when we can think about our ancestors and what did they have?

1:04:50Well, they said the stars were aligned this way when we met that night. And that's how I knew that we were there forever. We didn't have attachment theory, right? They didn't have all these other things. What they had was, you know, going by what the cosmos had told them in that end moment and making that stick. That's, and they stayed together.

1:05:19Johnny:And I think the greatest impact on behavioral change is actually relationships. It's not just focusing on the relationship you have with yourself. I've had some of the biggest insights through failed relationships where I recognized I was anxious attachment. It was not through me just reading books, consuming podcasts and talking to a person. It was through me actually going through the experience of a relationship, trying to build something greater together with this person. And I think when we rob ourselves of that and we become so self-focused and only aware of what we are working on, we actually are not creating the opportunity to get as much work done on ourselves as we could by experiencing the messiness that is dating.

1:06:04Sometimes when we look at other people go through relationships and they change, it can be tempting to be like, what the hell? That's not who you are. I know who you are. I knew you before this relationship. That was you. This is some nonsense. it's not it's not really how it works like we are very flexible i think i think it's an amazing thing that we can change with our relationships as long as people are cued in to what feels good to them and whether they're becoming the person you want to be if your relationship is making you the person and you're like who am i becoming that's a warning sign but if you're becoming a new person you're growing and changing and developing new interests and new identities through a relationship.

1:06:50That's like the whole point. And I just like it's OK to change. It really is.

1:06:58Johnny:Well, as we close, I'd love to get your perspective on masculinity, because I know it has created a lot of confusion for the men who take our training and it's become a hot topic. And there's a lot of different views, views that'll get you canceled, views that will win you a lot of followers online. to Johnny's point and win you infamy for the wrong reasons. But what what should we be looking at when we talk about masculinity through what lens? What what are these important attributes in your opinion? The stoic version of masculinity is getting a lot of play these days. And I'm not I'm not here to hate on the stoics, but I think like the ethos of like, I'm an independent warrior and I will, you know, pursue through intimidation and domination.

1:07:49Not a fan. Being a part of a community, contributing to something, feeling valuable for what you give to others. That's a really important part of masculinity. So I think I think we can just pivot a little bit from the this old classic, like mid 20th century way of thinking about masculinity where you don't show emotion and you're just strong like showing emotion is really important actually having real relationships with women if you're a heterosexual guy is very very important women are not the enemy we can all help each other out um i think by pivoting in that direction it's it's um a version of masculinity that's ultimately going to be a lot more healthy And it's going to give everybody, you know, more of what they're looking for.

1:08:40We're blessed to be in a position where we can hear the best argument of other positions. And we've never that wasn't given. We didn't have that access before. So before you start looking at the lead characters who gain all the headlines for saying the most outrageous stuff. You know, find the other arguments. find what most importantly find what what allows and empowers you to be at your best because if you're not cut out to to be the brash raggy uh guy because that's what you're told you need to be it's it's like you're going to experience a lot of hardships but when you find a philosophy or an ideology that empowers you to uh to add skills to be of more value that there's nothing that can stop you and unfortunately some of those ideas don't get the media play intention that they deserve.

1:09:55Well, you have X spaces. Yeah. You, uh, you have YouTube. There's alternative media sources that promote different ideas. I suggest you go find, uh, what gives you the most strength. That's a great point. Could not have said it better.

1:10:14Johnny:Well, thank you so much for joining us, Paul. Where can our audience find out more about the book and argue with you online about everything you share. Yes, yes. So the book comes out on February 10th and the book's called Bonded by Evolution. You can get it wherever you buy books. If you want to hear more from me, check out the Love Factually podcast where my co-host and I, Eli Finkel, we talk about how the scientific principles of romance and attraction appear in the movies. Thank you again. Great conversation, Paul. Thanks so much for having me.

1:10:56Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as we have. And now comes a part of the show where we showcase one of our X Factor members. Take it away, Daniel.

1:11:05Johnny:My name is Daniel Bosing, and I'm a manufacturing engineer. My overall experience with the X Factor Accelerator program has been excellent due to effective teaching and a supportive community of like-minded individuals. Since joining, I've cultivated deeper connections with my friends, family, and colleagues by implementing the conversational techniques learned in the program. These deeper connections have made my life more fulfilling, both personally and professionally. I would recommend joining the X Factor Exciter program because the excellent teaching and consistent accountability ensure you will grow into the person that you want to become.

1:11:43Daniel, it was a pleasure working with you too, and good luck with all your future pursuits. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, please head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It means the world to us and it helps others find the show. Go out there and have an amazing, amazing week.

1:12:18You're a song of a tragedy Cause you had your taste Of black on the easy day Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you

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