Negotiating Disagreement | Robert Bordone & Joel Salinas

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27:05Visit rexmd.com slash charm. That's rexmd.com slash charm. See full details and usage at rexmd.com. Prescription required. Results may vary. I think if we zoom out, conflict defines your life. How you show up in these moments and how you navigate through them really defines your career, your partner, your relationships, your family dynamic. And I'm speaking on this as someone who was raised very conflict diverse. And outside of lacking the emotional vocabulary, I would go into my head and have the conversation fully expecting what the other person's going to say and try to come to a solution to manage their emotions more than my own.

27:51Because people pleasing was also wrapped up in my aversion to conflict. And what that's led to in my life is bad business deals, terrible partnerships, frustration romantically, difficulty socially. And I didn't realize all of that. I would often blame others, like they're the bad person or why can't they see the good in me? And that withdrawing, it finally took a partner sitting me down and being like, I can't deal with you when you don't say anything, when you give me nothing. And I'm like, well, I'm processing. And that's how I'm going through the motions and managing my emotions, recognizing it, and then trying to believe that I can see what you're going to respond to and then try to find the way to just solve this conflict as fast as possible and move on.

28:33And of course, as we know, that leads to awful outcomes for everyone involved. Bob can speak to kind of identities and narratives that we kind of struggle with in situations like this, but also having kind of growing up very kind of conflict-averse and having people-pleasing tendencies. I think a lot of this work has been really illuminating and leading up to it in that, you know, avoiding conflict. Sometimes we really do that with the idea that we don't want to ruin the relationship or the friendship or kind of cause trouble. Right. We want to avoid those situations where we might disappoint somebody.

29:05But actually, conflict is how you build those relationships. Conflict is how you actually build connection and it's how you improve things. And so it's kind of this counterintuitive kind of approach to conflict that we're really advocating for, which is really to kind of expect and accept it and really actually embrace it. Because conflict is where possibility lies. Conflict is where growth comes from. And I would just say, right, and this is, I also had to like really learn in this. Unfortunately, now I probably, I mean, I don't say I'm conflict seeking, but one of the things I truly believe is that the yeses don't have much meaning until you have the first no, right?

29:42The power of that first no is I feel enough security in myself and in this relationship that I can put something forward that is not consonant with what you want me to be doing right now. and that's the mark of if we work through that that's a much stronger relationship and a much more genuine relationship and you know listening you know listening to you and thinking about all of the kind of emotional work that you do internally to like oh my gosh this and what about this and right i mean it's taking up a lot of your emotional bandwidth your energy your creativity, your ideas, and that drains relationship, but it drains an organization, right, from all of the goodness that could be there.

30:33I think the other thing that we would both say, and we have seen this, right, is that often the anxiety and fear of what the conflict might look like is almost always worse than engaging it. And if you engage it with skill, you're even in a better spot. And oftentimes, I've found personally that the other side of the conflict resolution is far better than any of those feelings I was wrestling with before, during the conflict. And if you can get to the other side, and if you can do it in a way where both parties feel expressed, feel that they're heard, validated, and now we're working towards real solutions instead of being hung up on identities and feelings and emotions and all the backstory that we bring to it, it really is a beautiful place.

31:19It's not something to be avoided. It took me years to realize it, and I'm still working on it. I'm a work in progress in that way. And I think for the audience, raising awareness was a big piece of it and recognizing, okay, there are all these different dynamics at play that I need to understand. And I'd love to dig deeper on the identity because I think oftentimes we might not even recognize where our identity is coming into play in these conflicts, and we can very often see it in others. So I can label identities left and right on the other side of that conflict, but it's very hard for me at times to tell where my own identity is getting in the way.

31:54Yeah. I mean, this is something that we use some different kinds of examples, but some of the really common ones, right? I think, and you've kind of alluded to this, right? One is the story of, I don't want to be a disappointment, right? Versus the story, or I want to please boss, mom, spouse, child, fill in the blank. And then this another side or identity, which is something like asserting something that's important to me is selfish or is wrong. And those are two self stories that create an internal conflict sometimes. And if we don't address those, one side tends to always win out across the other.

32:37And I think for, I mean, I'll speak for myself. I think Joelle's a little like this. We also kind of were raised in families where we were highly sensitized to the needs of the other. and you sense that and you fill it. And part of the work then is to figure out, well, what is the side of you that isn't getting their needs met? And how do you give that side a voice? And I think a lot of times the other identity comes up is, well, that side's not important or you're fine. You're fine over there. But the fact is if you have sleepless nights over it, if you're spending lots of time and energy talking to people about it, that other side isn't fine.

33:18And that is to us, right, the work of giving it a voice and then having the resilience to bring it into the room in a way that's authentic and genuine and non-avoidant and also not being an asshole, right? Which we know can resolve conflicts, but it is very damaging. You bring up in the book seven tensions. And I think it's helpful to at least maybe call out a few that you often see are present in these situations or maybe some common mistakes with the tension that people make as we think about conflict. Do you want us to talk about all of these? No, I was just picking a few that might be surprising to our audience or in your work might have been surprising or enlightening.

34:05Yeah, I mean, in some sense, I think, I'm trying to think about ones that would be really different. I mean, you know, we certainly talk about, I think, a tension around this idea of zero sum versus value creation. I think it's a pretty basic negotiation tension, but it comes up a lot, I think, in a lot of ways. I think the identity tension that we just, or that I just mentioned here, is one that I think is very prevalent, which is the ways in which we might code different sides of ourself. And then sometimes, you know, we talk about something called circus mirrors, that we, when we are naming a side of ourself, we often have a distorted view of it.

34:53And that could be really problematic. One specific tension that comes to mind that could be worth kind of highlighting is the tension between kind of the needs of the self and the needs of the other. It's always very hard to navigate. And, you know, for people who are highly, highly empathetic, you often consider the needs of the other as your own. And so having to figure out how you set those boundaries up front and see that as an act of self-care and almost as an act of empathy for yourself can help to make it a lot easier when you have to draw that hard line, which can be really hard for some people more than others, but it's definitely a hard one to navigate.

35:34Yeah, what comes up for me in that is also the tension that we're predicting is going to happen thereafter. We draw that hard line, right? So that there's an anticipation and we then feel it as a tension internally of like, well, okay, well, it's going to be an outsized reaction to me actually just expressing my need or expressing a boundary to protect myself. And of course, that comes up a lot more in abusive situations, but that tension is present, And especially for those of us who are very empathetic and concerned about how people feel around us. Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought up that point.

36:08Because I think one of the things that we want to make sure is very clear from the book is that, you know, when we're talking about conflict resilience, we're talking about kind of being comfortable sitting with and kind of being present for the discomfort of disagreement and conflict. But what we are not saying is to tolerate or endure an abusive situation. We actually have a whole section in the book really focused on this piece. It can be very, very thorny, very difficult to really navigate. And I think we want to make sure that people know that it's very important that if you are in a situation where you are at risk of harm to yourself or there's risk of harm to others, that you are able to navigate that as aggressively as possible.

36:48And that sometimes means kind of leaving the situation or calling for help in the situation as opposed to just kind of enduring it. One of the ways that we kind of talk about this is in the sense of kind of like basically do you stay or do you go? and that is very dependent on the situation, your own personal interests, and also there's some degree that's the interest of the other party that you're talking through. And what we're really arguing for here is that there are some opportunities if you're able to kind of stay in the conflict or the disagreement as opposed to just kind of avoiding or kind of getting rid of the conflict immediately that you might be missing if you had decided to just walk away.

37:28Conflict resilience is one of the main concepts in the book. So perhaps defining it for our audience would be a good place here. Yeah, thanks for that. So it's not just like a cute little phrase, but we really do mean to distinguish this from conflict resolution. So conflict resilience really is the capacity and the mindset of sitting with the discomfort of disagreement, meaning having that ability to bring forward your perspectives, your feelings, your ideas with others, including and especially those who will not see eye to eye with you, and also being able to listen to and empathize with, and we want to distinguish empathize from agree with, empathize with, right, others' perspectives.

38:18And we think that that piece, right, certainly is a piece of what resolution might look like, but it's prerequisite and detached from whether or not we are going to agree. And the reason why we think this capacity is really important and also being underdeveloped right now is because if we can't have that capacity, then we can't ever get to resolution, right? I can have a whole bunch of skills that I can practice, but if I can't sit with the discomfort or the disagreement, I'm not going to be in the room with you because I might disagree with you. So then my other choice is to get onto X and tweet into my world and to get my troops and agree with them or to go on my Slack channel and talk about how awful the boss is or to make sure that the holidays are like from the 24 hours from like Christmas Eve to the end of Christmas Day.

39:18none of which is going to help us through polarized times, none of which is going to bring forward kind of all of the kind of value that differences bring. So we think conflict resilience is akin to something like emotional intelligence. That is to say, it is both, it is a broad capacity as well as a set of skills. You mentioned that's just worth saying something, which is this idea of when we change the script of the conversation and how the other side will react. I think one of the biggest, we both think one of the biggest reasons why people don't engage conflicts is because of the uncertainty of the reaction from the other side.

40:05And truth is we can't control that. And truth is it could be really bad. But going back to that idea of the bigger, better offer, right? What we know is that the way in which we currently engage it, for all of the pain it brings, it's predictable result. The invitation, though, is that if we do something different, it might not go perfect. And it won't always be batting 500, right? But it gives us different possibilities. It's like if I'm a baseball player and I'm always doing the swing the same exact way I do the swing, right? Like I probably never, I won't get any worse and I also won't get any better.

40:45Right. And resilience is a faith in your ability to handle whatever that reaction is. Whether it is to leave the situation, whether it is to keep negotiating and working towards a better solution, or whether it is to accept that that's what it is and the disagreement is where it lies. And I think that is often missed in a lot of the strategical negotiation advice when we think about how to walk into these scenarios, because it feels so much better to play around in the tactics and strategies and to map out all the things you can do and they can do and not really focus on. And you bring up this key point in the book that, you know, separating the people from the problem is not actually the answer, even though this gets repeated again and again, like, oh, just put the people to the side and we'll just do these great strategies.

41:33And then all of a sudden the problem solved. When in actuality, we are bringing the people to the problem, like you can't escape it. And that's exactly what we've covered in this first part of the framework of naming it is recognizing that the people part of it is inescapable. We really see conflict resilience as a prerequisite to all these other skills and tactics that people need to negotiate through conflicts and disagreements. In a way, it's how do you expect to learn how to bake a cake if you can't stand the heat of the kitchen? And so we want to help to give people more of the skills so that way they can be more thoughtful and deliberative about engaging those skills and tactics that are already out there.

42:12These rich examples kind of historically of people who are able to do this that we see less frequently, right? So I'm a politics junkie. I'm also ancient. And years ago, I got to actually work for then-Senator Biden when he was chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee. There were two senators on that committee who couldn't be farther apart politically, Orrin Hatch, a Republican conservative from Utah, and Teddy Kennedy, liberal lion of the Senate. The overlap of where their views landed together was very narrow. And yet, they were able to cut these deals. They were able to identify zones of agreement, even though they had very fierce disagreement on many, many issues.

43:02And I just don't think we see as many examples of that. And you could look in international arena, you look at people like former UN Special Envoy Brahimi, who helped broker negotiation that brought an end to the Kosovo conflict. And people say, how did you sit down with people who are accused of war criminals? And yeah, the work of negotiation and conflict resolution is messy and dirty and hard and uncomfortable. And the alternative is continued bloodshed.

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44:47I want to unpack that a little bit more because obviously online communication has distorted all of this. So the level of resilience that those two had to their constituents and the ability of their constituents to reach them angrily and cancel them and remove them from the party and label them traitor and everything else was much less than it is today. So, you know, yes, our politicians need more resilience, but we need to recognize that online discourse is distorting our perception of what the necessary resilience is to manage these conflicts. And we had a little spirited exchange before we started recording around this exact thing that because of this lack of resilience and a lack of understanding around the distortion going on, we can very quickly hold on to the most negative views of the tiniest minority, and they could keep us from acting at all, from even choosing to engage in conflict and instead avoid it and get nothing done, which is, I think, the overwhelming opinion at this point is everyone is angry at politicians for doing nothing.

45:52But that is because they're now afraid of these conflicts that you just discussed, that in the past, even on complete opposite sides, we would walk into knowing that there's got to be that zone of agreement that we can move things forward on. You're singing my song here, right? I think what has happened is we've gotten to a moment now where if you decide to engage the other, you have now betrayed your people, right? And betrayal, right, is like, talk about, like, we were talking about families earlier, right? I think so much of what complicates family dynamics around conflict is themes of betrayal.

46:29It's a big identity piece. But if the costs of going across and having the conversation are complete betrayal, and I think the online environment is very, very rich for that, but it's not just that. And you don't see what the bigger, better offer is. Who's going to do this? I mean, we hope we have lots of examples, both anecdotally and through the research and science that Joelle brings to this book to be persuasive for people. But we get like, this is not an easy sell, but we think it's a really important sell. And the question I think you're almost asking is, how do you do this in an environment where even trying, you lose your tribe and get nothing from the other side?

47:19Or you kind of go to the line and there's nobody there. Yeah. And that's what we're seeing with our clients, whether it's in the corporate world or even in their personal lives, this fear of cancellation and this fear of what betrayal becomes in their life is so large that they choose to opt out. They choose to retreat. They choose to go back to their safe, comfortable online world where there is you can find agreement everywhere in your little algorithmic bubble. Yeah, no, I think that's right. You know, in the last part of our book, one of the things we talk about, hopefully to some, hopefully people will find it useful, but it's how do you, we use the frame, like create the word of how do you create a greenhouse environment to help foster conflict resilience?

48:06So you could do the first part of our book, right? All the internal work. And then you can do the second part of our book, which is really around the skills. but if you're in a hostile environment, it's going to still be harder to become conflict resilience. It's like you could have developed a very good seed for the most tasty tomato, but if you plant it in Boston in February, it may not do that well. And so we offer some advice, I think, for leaders in that, but we also feel like we had to offer some advice of like, what are the things you could do when you don't maybe have structural power to at least do something in your environment to increase the possibility of doing this work.

48:51And, you know, there's lots of dark examples, but there's lots of really great ones too. In January, I'm going to Dubai in the beginning of January to do work with an organization called Seeds of Peace. This is an organization that's been around for more than 30 years, working with Israeli and Palestinian young leaders and Indian and Pakistani young leaders. And one could take a step back and say, wait, well, is India and Pakistan in a great situation? Answer, no. But boy, for the people who get involved in this, does it change the trajectory of how they live and the choices they make and the way they lead?

49:25Absolutely. So looking at that second step, I know we covered the name it step quite in depth, and I'm super happy we did because we had so many rich personal examples. But walk us through some of these skills that we need to bring to the table and develop to start to grow our conflict resilience. Joelle, I'm going to let you take it unless you want me to, because I've been over-talking over here. I'm excited with all my stories. No, no, I think just for Explore, I think one of the key things there is really understanding kind of your interests and the interests of the other person and kind of where your values line, whether there's any kind of overlap.

50:02It's really kind of doing this interrogation around kind of what you're looking for, what your purposes are for the conflict of the disagreement, why you want to engage it. And all this kind of feeds back into this kind of BBO, kind of bigger, better offer as well. I don't know, Bobby, if you want to add anything to that. Everything Joelle said. I mean, the explore piece is for us the at the table, the preparation work, and then the at the table, the proverbial table of the set of hard conversations or the negotiation or the conflict. It is how do you enact and bring to life the work that you did, naming the different identities and the work that you did against like everything in our culture that's telling us to not be curious, right?

50:48That's telling us to be certain. Like, I already know what these people think. I know exactly what they're like. I could play out both sides of the conversation. Well, the name piece is, right, how do we get past that? How do we find the things we need to assert and also find the places of curiosity and mine that? The explore part is like, all right, what does it look like now, right? If we were creating, like, curated videos, right, what would you say? And, you know, I mean, I would say like in my work, I mean, my work in many respects, you know, 20 years ago started in explore land. That is to say, there's so many courses out there.

51:26And you said this at the beginning of it, that kind of teach you the, what is the phraseology and how do you set up a process? And that's really important because a lot of people don't know how to do that, right? I don't want to down, we don't want to downplay that piece at all. And frankly, it's bread and butter for a lot of the work that I do, right? And also, we strongly believe if you don't do the first piece, the second piece is not going to look real and authentic. But that's, I think, what the explore pieces are. How do you identify substantive interests, emotional interests, relational interests?

51:59How do they get named? How do you explore the perspectives of the other? How do you identify what the solution set might look like? That's what's really in that piece. So I know for many of our audience members, they're going to enjoy this piece the most. the preparation, the ability to really think intellectually about the problem, the conflict, and strategize. What strikes me about that, and I think is difficult for a lot of our clients, is to see beyond their own identity. And oftentimes, they might even mislabel the other side's identity. And then from there, try to draw conclusions around motivations that miss the mark.

52:35And I think the curiosity piece is something that we work diligently with our clients to develop, because it flows through conversations, it develops great relationships, it also creates great opportunities to resolve conflict when we actually work on our ability to be more curious. But oftentimes, especially in the short form world that we live in, that curiosity piece is like 90 seconds long. And then it's like, okay, I checked that box. I know that person is, all right, let me apply this strategy. So if that's how you see the younger generation or conflict arising, and how can we think deeper and explore and strengthen our curiosity muscle to really find what those true motivations are and not the false flags or the ideas that we have based on identities that we're seeing online.

53:21Yeah. I mean, I'll offer two hacks and maybe Joelle will offer some brain hacks. These are two, I mean, they really are kind of hacks, but I think they work. I've seen them work really well, right? One, sometimes it's inviting like a client to reframe their task, right? Like I'll say something like you have an offer to write the long form article that's going to be in the New Yorker on how this person thinks. Like that's your task in this. So put on your reporter's hat and the more juice you get, the better. And suddenly the kinds of questions that come out, like it's a role shift, are really curious.

54:00Like say more about that. Help me understand that. And so it's quite interesting sometimes if you change the person's purpose or role, you could tap into some curiosity. Like it's in their capacity. I think the other thing that I have found works, and I suspect you guys probably do this too, right, is some version of a role reversal. Like literally putting them in a chair and saying, you're now whatever, the boss, you're the client, you're the person on your team is driving you crazy. I don't want to do that. What's the point of this? This is silly. We're just going to do it. Right. And I mean, does it mean that there's a mind meld with the other side?

54:37Like, no, but just sitting in that chair and hearing their own words on them, used on them in the chair of the other, like can be really powerful. And I think somehow, right. The, the, the task here is, and this is what, um, something that we try to emphasize in the book that the performative acts will look performative and trained if you can't actually get the shift in curiosity. What I would add is, maybe not so much as a brain hack, but it is a useful tool as the ladder of inference. This is a tool we talk about in the book where essentially you've got, if you imagine a ladder sitting on top of an ocean, the top of the ladder is the headline of what the other person is saying or how you're perceiving the situation.

55:22For example, like you're being selfish and the ocean is all the data that leads up to that headline. And what you want to do is kind of really walk down that ladder to figure out kind of like, what are the experiences, the facts, the things that led to that headline. And you can do that in that kind of conversation. This is kind of where that curiosity comes in, is kind of pointing out areas of interest, really understanding, oh, what was it that led to you thinking that or you know tell me more about kind of why it is you think that and the further down you work your way down the more you're able to gain information not just you know to help to navigate the situation as a whole but it also helps you know you to better understand how to be more strategic and kind of the next step of this piece to really understand what are the things that are really motivating the other person what's really driving where there is a point of conflict that's really important i'm certainly going through that information deciphering what it means to you and why you got that headline.

56:19So you could also understand whether you've bought into a cognitive distortion or some bumper sticker saying that you've always clung to that doesn't stand in any sort of facts whatsoever, but just sort of a junk philosophy that you've always just sort of used. That'll certainly get through all of that. I mean, the more facts that you have that lead to that, the better you're going to feel about that. And that's certainly work that you're going to have to do. And it's that pre-work that you all were discussing earlier. I think the other piece that we focus on with our clients that's important is recognizing where you can take responsibility.

56:58Because I feel so often in these conflict scenarios, we're searching endlessly for where the other person can take some responsibility and just own why we're in the conflict and why they're saying they're doing that thing. and we spend so much time focused on them and not really exploring, well, what's going on from our end? And oftentimes when you do that self-exploration, the motivations become a lot clearer for both you and the other person instead of just focusing and labeling the other person and waiting for their responsibility. And sometimes that responsibility can be as simple as I miscommunicated or I let my emotions get the best of me and I actually didn't mean it in that tone whatsoever.

57:39But if we're constantly seeking other people to take responsibility, well, we can find ourselves deadlocked for a very long, painful time. Yeah. And like, I mean, the invitation that you put out there, I think, is so critical, right? And the thing that can come out of this engagement of conflict is my ability to learn and my ability to change, right? And make myself a better friend, better partner, better leader. And if you have that, there is much more interest and engagement and curiosity in engaging the conflict. If your main purpose is to persuade them, show them that they're wrong, tell them that they bought into a conspiracy, show the 52 studies that show whatever, fill in the blank, the COVID vaccine works, the earth is flat, da-da-da-da-da.

58:37Well, then sometimes it probably isn't worthwhile, right? And you're just inviting a fight, right? And I mean, we do encounter resistance around some of this with some people, right? How am I supposed to be curious about somebody who thinks the world is flat? And of course it depends, right? And I think this is part of what the last part of our book tries to get into. How do you decide whether to engage? One thing we often say, and I think is true, is that we tend to have a bigger set of people we think are crazy than are actually crazy. So if you're in doubt, err on the side of engagement is worth a try.

59:18But secondly, is there some way that you think, whether or not they're going to be skillful, they might be really unskillful, but can they enter a conversation from a place of good faith? And even if they're going to do it in a cruddy, bad way, they haven't taken the class, haven't been coached by you guys, they don't know the great way to do it. If you think they can enter from a place of good faith, that might be worth doing. I completely agree. And I think this resilience piece is more important than ever. When we look at our evolutionary engine driving us, conflict was pretty sparse. It was life and death when it happened, but it was pretty sparse.

59:58We now live in an always-on 24-7 world where you can find conflict every millisecond of the day. And it's more present than ever. So if you're not actively building resilience to it and being able, as we talked about in the beginning, to walk into it and manage it, well, you're going to withdraw and it's going to have very harmful effects on not only yourself, but society as a whole. Amen to that. I mean, I think one of the things I could say this nicely because it's really Joelle's contribution to the book. But one of the things that's so great about understanding how the brain works is that the brain in many respects, and Joelle, tell me if I'm getting this all washed up here.

1:00:37But it was designed to kind of react in those existential situations that you were mentioning, right? where it's like, whatever, he's going to beat me with a club or I won't get whatever, the carcass of the horse I need to eat. But in our workplace, in our country, with your mother-in-law, it could be unpleasant, but she's not going to eat you. And sometimes that natural brain responds without some of the ability to do some of the hacks that really Joelle talks about in the book, get us into more trouble. Being more aware of kind of how our brain can trick us is just so important to be able to overcome those kind of tricky ways that our brain evolved to be able to help us out kind of in the long term and to be able to do things that are really going to help to support you in the way that you want to kind of achieve whatever outcome you're really looking for.

1:01:33Well, I know for many of us coming out of the holiday, we definitely feel that we need more conflict resilience. So we appreciate both of you stopping by and sharing this great book with us and our audience, where can they find out more about the work that you both do? Sure. Well, we've also had fun. And you could find us at our book website, which is really simple. It's conflictresiliencebook.com, conflictresiliencebook.com. And that will also lead you to our individual websites as well. Thank you so much for joining us. I hope you have a wonderful holiday. Thank you. Thanks, Dave, to you both.

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1:02:56My only regret is not taking the program sooner. If you are serious about showing up as the best version of yourself, I urge you to sign up for the X Factor Accelerator. You will be so glad you did. And thank you, Ron. It was a pleasure working with you. And thank you, Ron. It was a pleasure working with you. And good luck to all your future endeavors. Yeah, I remember you You were the bad boy You threw your love away Like it was just a toy And you sold the world You're a song of a tragedy Cause you had your taste Of black on the yesterday Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you

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