Networking & Relationships in a Polarized World | Kurt Gray

26:47And like, as you say, right now, the other side are not just well-meaning people, while they're fundamentally depraved. And why would you have a conversation with someone who's not only evil, but who's gonna attack you and a predator prey again, the first chance they get. So what can we do to start to build relationships, lower this threat level that we're feeling? What are your recommendations when it comes to actually communicating in a more effective and respectful way to build and foster connection versus this disconnect that we've all been feeling around the other side? Great question. And I think the first step is to recognize that our perceptions are misperceptions.

27:26So the other side doesn't hate you. The other side doesn't think that embezzlement and animal abuse is okay, right? We all have the same basic moral sense. And so you need to keep that in mind. In fact, we have some data that show that if you just remind someone, hey, you're going to interact with someone on the other side. And guess what? they think embezzlement and animal abuse is wrong. You're like, oh, okay, that's cool. I'll have a better conversation with it. It seems insane that we're there, but it's effective, right? So just recognize the other person has a basic moral compass and they don't hate you.

28:02Because if you think they hate you, then you hate them reactively. So that's the first step. The second step is before you talk about politics, connect with someone as a human being. Don't just launching a politics, right? That's, you know, with any conversation, right? I mean, you guys know this, right? You have a whole podcast on like how to do this better, right? Like you're not going to, hi, I'm Kurt. Like, what do you think of Trump? That's a little aggressive, right? You could say, hi, like, how was your day? Connect with someone about their fears, their hopes, their everyday concerns. And then once you build some rapport, then you can invite them to talk about, not force them, be like, hey, I'm trying to understand your thoughts on this, right?

28:50And so the invitation coupled with this desire to understand is really what it's about, right? Like I took a cab ride to the airport a couple months ago, and the Uber driver, when I told him I was a professor who studied politics and morality, right, he's like, I'm immediately going to tell you what I think about that stuff. And he said, he's like, I'm a Christian nationalist, but not the kind of Christian nationalist that you think.

29:16I don't know what kind of Christian nationalist I think you are. But I said, well, why don't you tell me? I don't have a good sense of what the varieties of Christian nationalists are. So please tell me. And once he knew that I was genuinely interested in understanding his positions, then he was really open and sharing his beliefs, sharing his personal experiences. and at the end of the cab ride, I still didn't agree with him, right, with his position, but I thanked him for sharing it and I think he also kind of made some sense of what I was thinking. You brought up a very good point. We have these ideas, what the other side is.

29:58We are marketed their beliefs and ideas through media. Media works for somebody else, doesn't work for us. And so by asking somebody to explain their position gives them the floor to be able to share with you who they really are and not the media's picture of who you are. And so that allows them to feel good that I'm now seen and heard for who I actually am. Now, when you said Christian nationalism, well, I'm sure everyone listening to this immediately got a picture of what that is that has been posted to them relentlessly for all of politics, at least for decades. But that picture is built to instill fear in other people.

31:03So having him explain that position and what that means to him is so helpful. I think also to go along with this, everyone at this point should be taking a marketing one-on-one class in order to understand when you're being marketed to. Because here's the first thing that you are going to learn in marketing is that fear is the motivational driver in human beings. So that's what people are going to use. They beat us over the head with fear 24-7. So if I say I'm a Christian nationalist, well, you're going to get the most scariest picture of what can be put together in order to keep you from connecting to that person.

32:03Because if we find commonalities in there, well, now we're working together and that doesn't work for the powers that be. and it doesn't work for, what did you call them? Conflict entrepreneurs? Yeah, exactly. I think the other problem with this is because of that fear, it's hard for us to see the ration. It's hard for us to see the rationality that the other person used to become a Christian nationalist. And, you know, you can talk both sides of the gun issue, but when you actually get to, okay, well, now I'm a gun owner because I was threatened or my child was murdered or I had a neighbor get robbed in front of me and I now value self-protection more than I did in the past, that's a rational reason to end up there.

32:48But when we focus on just the fear that's being marketed to us, it creates an irrational version of who that gun rights activist is. And it takes away their agency, it takes away their logic and why their history matters and how they reach that point. And you hit right on what the data suggests too, right? Like if you're having a conversation with someone, it's only going to go well if you see them as rational. And today we're bombarded with like the talking points of media, as you said, John, and you're just kind of repeating those. And those don't make you seem rational, right? Because you're like, you're just talking about something you've been, you know, put in the back of your head by media.

33:30But it turns out what is the key to making you seem rational is to communicating those personal experiences of threat that drive your moral convictions. So we actually did a study with the gun debate. And in one conversation people had about the gun debate was like, look, this is why I believe in gun rights or gun control. And they threw some facts at the other side, like real facts, right, about like, well, guns injure so many people or guns protect so many people. Those conversations went very poorly. The conversations that went well were conversations where someone said, the reason that I own a gun, as you suggested, right, is because I use it for self-defense or my mom used it for self-defense or I'm against guns because I knew someone who was killed in a mass shooting.

34:18And those stories make you seem rational because those stories seem truer than facts. Today, we don't think facts are true anymore, but stories have this deep kind of resonance with human nature. And so we're like, oh, you're rational for believing that because I believe your story. And it's one thing that we've experienced with our coaching clients that when we actually spend time together in person and start to share our stories, we hear the rationale for their views and we can recognize each other as having different political viewpoints. And they'll laugh to us and say, oh, I didn't know that about you by listening to your show.

34:55Well, we do that purposely because we know in this snapshot where you're just watching a video of me, and maybe I'm saying a bumper sticker or I'm parroting something in the media, it's very easy for you to jump to that conclusion about all the other irrational things about AJ or Johnny and their viewpoints. But when you actually start to share stories in person, in building rapport and the backstory of who you are, well, those political lenses that come into the picture make a lot more sense. Absolutely. I was just giving a TEDx talk in Reno, and one of the other speakers was an ex-Navy SEAL, retired Navy SEAL.

35:30And this guy's kids went to Christian school and he definitely owned a firearm, right? This man. But he saw danger in many more places than I did because he actually experienced it, right? He was fighting in Iraq. Like he had people trying to kill him on a daily basis. And so I very much respected his viewpoint of the world and his moral stance because they're grounded in an experience that was obviously real. And so, right, it was a conversation that we had, and it fostered respect instead of just saying, you know, this other person. The other thing about that is, to go along with what AJ was saying, one of the other things that we do in our programs is to make everyone get in tune with their core values and to make sure that during their days and throughout the weeks and months and years that they are engaging in those core values.

36:27When you have defined and understand what those core values are and you are engaging them, you begin speaking through them. And what you will also notice is because you are so intimate with your core values that you are speaking through them, you begin recognizing when other people are speaking through their core values, be it nonverbal body language and their behaviors or their verbal language. They're going to be speaking through those core values. When that happens, people are able to easily connect. The politics and religion bullshit comes later because we've already connected on creativity, humor, ceaseless learning, health.

37:16Well, all of those things are incredibly important to the human experience. And now we can connect on those things. And you might build something, put something together, go on a bunch of workouts, get training, get to your ideal weight, learn a brand new skill, only to learn about somebody's politics that are completely separate than yours much later, after the job has been done, after the task was complete. And then when you look at it that way, you're like, oh, well, that's my friend Michael. He's a loon. I don't believe anything in his political. But that guy helped me do X. Or when it comes to creativity, we can work together all day long because that's what's important to us.

38:03And for AJ and I, we've been business partners for 17 years. And through that, we have learned about ourselves, learned about our political positions. have talked about spirituality and religion. And through 17 years, those have shifted to both of us. However, because we believed in what we were doing and were focused on that result, we were able to poke fun at each other, have some laughs at our political and religious experiences and learnings because we had something much bigger than those things to focus on. Absolutely. I mean, pick up two things you said there. So one, right, people are more than their values.

38:50Or sorry, people are more than their politics, right? They're like grounded in core values. And I have a big family in Nebraska, and they are evangelical, conservative folks, and different than the kind of like progressive professors that I usually hang out with. And I went to a funeral of my cousin who passed away, sadly, at the beginning of the year. And we didn't talk about politics once through that entire visit, right? Because I knew them, they knew me, we knew we loved each other, we cared for our cousin. and through that weekend, we just reminisced about him and talked about all the great things about my cousin, Jeff.

39:31And it never came up, right? Because we knew each other. And maybe if it had come up, we would have acknowledged the difference, but it just wasn't important in that moment. And so it's exactly right. Our core values matter in communicating them. The other thing that you hit on that I think is really important to kind of emphasize is that, You said your positions had changed over the time that you guys have worked together. And people, when they think of their own values, they think of them as sometimes, especially with politics, as like never changing and having no kind of complexity or contradiction.

40:07That's ridiculous. Right? And so I work with some kind of practitioners who go into like really divided communities. And one mechanism or strategy they use to kind of bridging divides is to encourage people to think inside themselves of tensions and contradictions they might have about particular issues. Right. So you're like, look, I'm anti-immigration. You're like, well, you know, don't you know this this person and aren't they an illegal immigrant? And and or if you're like, I'm pro-immigrant, but like what didn't this bad thing happen and what do you think about that? and weren't they an illegal immigrant?

40:41And you recognize the tension within yourself and realize it's not so black and white. And that allows you to kind of connect with someone else who might differ, right? It's now shades of gray instead of black and white. Yeah, I think, again, it comes back to core values. If you're a ceaseless learner and somebody who is addicted to growth and wanting to be the best that you can be, I do not see how you can't challenge yourself on religious, spirituality, politics, because they are a part of life. You're not going to escape it. You're bombarded by it. And you have to confront at some point, well, what is it that I believe here?

41:20And am I just going along to get along? Or am I actually digging in to understand how this relates to me and who I am? Well, there's a big blind spot there as well around the fact that even these politics are evolving. The Overton window is shifting. So what it meant to be a conservative or a Democrat 40 years ago is different than what it means now. But yet we have this blind spot that it's fixed and that it's built on a solid foundation. So if I'm saying that, then my assumption is that that's always been the way it is for me. And then my assumption also goes to you, that you're fixed in your view and it's not evolving internally for you.

42:00And maybe you're not feeling those internal contradictions. And I think that's difficult for us to really grapple with, this blind spot that we have. around how these views have shifted over time. That meaning is constantly changing and being redefined based on culturally what's evolving around us. Yeah, there's this amazing finding in science called the end of history effect. And everyone agrees that they've changed till now, but right now they think is the end of history, right? They'll just be the same forever from now on and never change again. And I think that's exactly wrong, right? We change in all sorts of ways, right?

42:36There's new things we consider. We grow, exactly. Now, the other blind spot with this is that we often view right now what's happening to us as the worst. And we don't think about the historical patterns and how this polarization has happened before, maybe not directly in our lifetime, but it's happened historically because this is hardwired in our DNA for survival that's just being hijacked in this scenario, in this particular location, in time. And it's happened to tribes in different parts of the world. Maybe they weren't consuming social media, but there was tribalism. There was polarization.

43:15There was people not understanding the other person's side of this view. But I think we have this blind spot around, well, it's the worst it's ever been right now. And now I have to dig my heels in and fight harder than ever. Yeah. And it's not even that bad in America, right? Like we're like, America is divided. But if you compare America to other countries where there's ongoing civil wars, it's not right. Like just because you give someone a dirty look, if they're wearing the wrong color or wrong hat or wrong T-shirt or wrong bumper sticker, right, you're not going to try to attack them. But that happens in other places at other times.

43:50So it's not so bad right now. And not to mention the overlap of views and values shared between both parties is much larger than we recognize because that's not where the media puts their focus and attention, right? So the only thing that's highlighted in the culture wars and in the political divides and the polarization is where there is difference and disagreement. You're not going to sit there on social media and scroll through all the agreements that both sides have, all the things that we both agree on in the world that we want to see. We are only fed that sliver of the pie where there's clear disagreement that can be leveraged to keep us exhausted and at home or to keep us motivated to fight.

44:33Exactly, exactly. I think we agree. We agree on probably 99 % of moral issues. and the 1 % that we disagree on, we probably still agree about the underlying motivations there, which is we want to have a vibrant society, we want to protect the vulnerable, and we want to have a fair society for everybody, right? And then there's the trade-offs, right? But underlying those trade-offs is a common motivation. It's important to recognize that in a time where we're bombarded with a version of events that's completely opposite of that, that the motivations are not aligned. And in fact, the motivations are they're the predator and we need to fight them off as the prey that's being attacked.

45:14So we have some some work that kind of shows how those differences manifest between liberals and conservatives, like their concerns about protecting the vulnerable. And it might be useful just to kind of know as we're approaching this election season. And what we show is that basically more progressive folks kind of amplify existing differences in vulnerability. So if you think of, like, let's say illegal immigrants, people generally agree that they're more vulnerable to harm or trans folks or the environment, right, like Corrie. It's like they're more easily harmed than, let's say, corporate leaders or the police, right?

45:54So there's folks that are in the world a little more vulnerable to harm and in the world a little more powerful and less vulnerable to harm. Well, everyone agrees, liberal conservatives, that there's general differences in vulnerability. And so we all agree about that. But what progressives do is they amplify those differences. They see the people that are already vulnerable as super vulnerable and the people that are less vulnerable as super invulnerable. So like oppressed oppressor. Right. This narrative about like someone can really be harmed and they're they're super vulnerable. And this other person, you know, is an oppressor and they're totally invulnerable.

46:32On the other hand, conservative folks, they're more likely to dampen these differences in vulnerability and see everyone is more or less equally vulnerable to harm. And so this, you know, gives gives some kind of insight into a lot of issues like Black Lives Matter versus All Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter is like black folks much more vulnerable than the police. And even conservatives would say like, you know, a homeless black person is more vulnerable than the police to start with. But conservatives are more likely to say, but everyone can be victimized in an individual sense, which I also think progressives generally agree.

47:07Right. So we agree with both of these things, but it's just the kind of extremity. Right. Of these positions. Right. Amplifying or dampening these differences. Well, and then to go along with that, if the data doesn't match those narratives, well, let's paint a picture that goes along with our narrative and ignore the data. Both sides do it. Absolutely. And who they choose to fall into those roles, like where they choose to focus and put their spotlight on to, again, motivate us to take action differs greatly. So there might be a view that, well, the police are under attack based on all of this violence that I'm seeing towards police that's being consumed in media.

47:50And then the flip side is like, no, actually, the police are the ones who are doing the attacking and we need to support the people that they're attacking. And then we're not looking at the data and the numbers. We're just looking at the stories because we're driven by story. So the narratives that are being painted on either side. And we have to recognize that oftentimes a lot of the shifting that happens in us is not because we're confronted with new data. It's not because someone then says, hey, you have this story, but look at this data. Look at this cool chart that I made of all the data that proves your story wrong.

48:20We're actually motivated by another more powerful story coming along that allows us to shift that perspective in line with the data that we're seeing. Absolutely. And we don't think of the thousands of stories where we all fully agree, right? Most police officers, good at putting their life on the line, protecting ourselves, right? People from marginalized groups, right? Working hard to try to, like, make their way through life and struggling more than folks who are maybe in less marginalized groups, right? So we generally agree on all of those things, right? But those stories that pit those hot-button issues against each other one way or the other that you said, those are the stories that animate outrage.

49:00Often two perspectives of the same event. And I think that's what's so troubling is you can pick any event, and based on the media you consume, it will share a perspective that aligns with your values and what you think the world is happening. And you'll see a view on the other side where their media aligns with their perspective completely. And then we're at this complete roadblock around what this event actually was and how we're supposed to move forward from this event. Just on this last bit, can we summarize? We got a little off track to summarize how people can rise above this and connect.

49:38So we started with one, just learning about the other person. So if you want to pick up there, Kurt, and we can summarize that for our audience. Yeah, you bet. So, right, the motivation to understand is powerful, right? And even more than that, letting people know that you're trying to understand is powerful, right? This is why I can have so many conversations with Christian nationalists, with, you know, self-described communists, with, you know, millionaires who are, you know, staunchly libertarian. I can talk to all these folks because I want to understand what they think. I want to understand what makes them tick.

50:18What are their core values, as you mentioned, right? And what's the kind of tensions that they see? And so this kind of connection understanding is key. And then I think the second point is the invitation to share, which is kind of part of that, right? Like, please, like, help me understand instead of be like, well, what do you think about, right? Like, those are very different things to say. and then I guess the third one is like once and we frequently miss this too I think so you know we connect and then we invite and then third we want to validate their feelings right because people are threatened right I just told you something deep about what I believe and my convictions and the experiences that I have that underlie those convictions and now I'm worried you're going to attack me and so I think what you need to say is Not you change my mind because that seldom happens.

51:11But I think you just say like, thank you for sharing. I understand how you could feel threatened in that situation. And it makes sense why you believe what you believe, right? Like just acknowledge their rationality and the genuineness of their concerns. So connect, invite, and validate are the kind of civs, civil understanding, right? Civic engagement. So those three things together, I think, are good tips. One of the things that our clients struggle with and frustration around is this validation can feel to them that there's agreement. So how do you validate someone who has a completely different viewpoint and perspective than you without agreeing with them?

51:48Yeah, it's tough, right? And I just I want to reiterate, right? Like it's so it's it seems so hard to have a conversation when all the forces are kind of saying like they hate you. Don't talk to them. Right. But it's actually not that hard, right? Like it feels hard, but you can just be like, you know, making a new friend and you go up to someone like, oh, I'm guessing you don't necessarily agree with what I'm thinking, but I would really love to hear your views. And then, right, as you say, you have to validate them. And how does that seem like not disagreement? Or as I've written about a little, sometimes it seems like betrayal.

52:21You're betraying your side if you give any quarter to the other side. And I think what you can do in that situation is first validate your own self before you validate someone else, right? You can tell yourself, look, it's not betrayal to have a conversation. You can even tell them in the conversation, right? Like, oh, thank you so much for sharing. You know, I have to admit I've got a different perspective, right? Acknowledges they haven't changed your view. You don't agree with them. but I really appreciate you having the courage to share your thoughts with me, especially today when everyone's so angry.

53:01And I, you know, I'm trying to understand. And so you ask follow-up questions, right? These are just like general how to make friends advice, right? Asking follow-up questions. You said this, can you help me understand that more? And then once you validate it, then you have a chance to talk about your thoughts and experiences, right? And that's another way that you can still feel like true to your convictions. You don't give up, but you do validate. Yeah, I love that. And I know in Johnny and my disagreements, it's often, okay, well, I'm curious, how did you arrive at that conclusion? Or what shifted your perspective on that?

53:34Because I thought in the past, you viewed it this way. Or, you know, that's interesting that you've evolved your position. What was it that allowed that to happen? And either he'll share a piece of media or a piece of data or a story or perspective or an experience that he had that really shifted his viewpoint. And I think that's the one thing that really unites all of us is the experiences and the emotions tied to those experiences. So maybe you didn't actually go through that traumatic event in particular around guns or around crime or around an encounter with the police, but you've been through traumatic events in your life and you can recognize how that would be totally shifting in your perspective and view of the world to have gone through that traumatic event.

54:17Absolutely, absolutely. Well, thank you for stopping by. Johnny and I really enjoyed talking to you today. Where can our audience find out more about the work you do and that TEDx talk that you gave in Reno? Yeah, so the TEDx talk might not be up for a little while, but I have a Substack newsletter. You can find it on Substack or if you find me on Twitter, it's linked in my profile there. Beautiful. Thank you for joining us, Kurt. Great, thanks for having me.

54:52this week's shout out comes from preston and i'll let him tell you himself go for it hey everyone this is preston from mesa arizona i joined the art of charm because after transitioning out of the military i noticed i was struggling with building connections and relationships with people on a personal scale and it didn't help on the business side of things either i tried a lot of different coaching programs, YouTube, personal growth videos, the works. And the great thing about Art of Charm is it's not a pill that you can just take to quickly fix everything. They have a system and a structure so that you can build what you need to, to, to see the matrix in yourself and actually get the results that you're looking for in the end.

55:29The awesome thing, AJ, Johnny, Michael, they work with you one-on-one as well as they put out a lot of time and effort to set up continual meetings there during the week and groups. Again, I would highly recommend this. you're going to see the matrix. You're going to see things that'll help you connect and build great relationships. Thank you, Preston. It was an honor and pleasure working with you as well. Analytical minds are for analytical careers. Doing the same things over and over again gets you the same results. If you're listening to this show, it's obvious that improving your communication, networking, and social confidence is important to you.

56:01It's also important to us, which is why we've created the X Factor Accelerator. The ultimate solution for analytical men ready to take action, build their wolf pack and find the one. Frameworks, tools, and strategies that turn analytical minds into social rock stars. Weekly coaching, implementation sessions, and a personalized curriculum designed to skyrocket your confidence, connection, and networking skills. With 17 years of experience and over 10 ,000 satisfied clients, including executives, military personnel, and men just like you, the art of charm has honed the art of transformation. Imagine reading any room, forging meaningful connections, and attracting the partner of your dreams.

56:37Scientifically backed lessons to unlock skills and become a super communicator. It's time to step into the spotlight and shake things up. Join the Art of Charms X-Factor Accelerator today to unlock the secrets to your success. Visit unlockyourxfactor.com to learn more and take the first step towards a brighter, bolder future. The Art of Charms X-Factor Accelerator. People skills for computer people. Apply today at unlockyourxfactor.com. All right. Well, if you got value from this podcast head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show it means the world does and it helps others find it all right before we head out a huge thank you to our producers michael harold and eric montgomery everyone go out there and have an epic week

57:35And you sold the world, you sold the tragedy Cause you had your taste of black only yesterday Yeah, but I remember you, oh yeah, I remember you In my life, I remember you

58:10Thank you.