In short
Podcast Summary: The Art of Charm - Peacemaking and Conflict Resolution in the Modern Age
Episode Overview In this episode, the hosts of The Art of Charm, Johnny and AJ, interview Steven T. Collis, a law professor and expert in First Amendment rights. The discussion centers around the challenges of modern communication, the impact of technology on discourse, and the essential habits of effective peacemakers as discussed in Steven's upcoming book, "Habits of a Peacemaker." The conversation emphasizes the importance of fostering productive dialogue in a polarized society.
Key Takeaways
Introduction
- Steven T. Collis: A leading expert in First Amendment rights and productive discourse, shares insights from his forthcoming book.
- Relevance: In today's increasingly polarized world, the skills of peacemaking and effective communication are more critical than ever.
The Art of Productive Discourse (00:03:00)
- Essential Habits:
- Cultivating habits that lead to respectful and productive conversations.
- Overcoming the addictive nature of social media to promote real learning and intellectual humility.
- The Importance of Different Viewpoints:
- Seeking out diverse perspectives improves understanding of complex issues.
Social Media's Impact on Communication (00:10:45)
- Addiction Mechanisms:
- Social media platforms use psychological techniques akin to those found in gambling to keep users engaged.
- Echo Chambers:
- The dangers of echo chambers can prevent meaningful dialogue, leading to further polarization.
- Protecting Communication Habits:
- Strategies to mitigate the negative effects of social media on personal communication.
Developing Intellectual Humility (00:16:14)
- Intellectual Humility Defined:
- Recognizing one's own knowledge limitations is crucial for productive dialogue.
- Reframing Conversations:
- Emphasize learning over debating; asking questions can lower conflict and foster understanding.
The Role of Humor in Peacemaking
- Types of Humor:
- Understanding various humor styles can create levity in tense discussions.
- Effective humor can reduce hostility and make others more receptive to new ideas.
Inner Peace and Self-Awareness
- Self-Awareness:
- Achieving inner peace aids in navigating external conflicts, facilitating more effective communication.
- Practical Steps:
- Engage in journaling, meditation, and long-form reading to foster self-awareness.
Practical Strategies and Habits for Peacemaking
- Engaging in Real Learning:
- Seek out quality information from diverse viewpoints, avoiding confirmation bias.
- Building Relationships:
- Spend quality time with people before delving into contentious topics to establish common ground.
- Intellectual Curiosity:
- Approach discussions with a mindset of curiosity and openness to change.
- Humor as a Tool:
- Use appropriate humor to lighten discussions and build rapport.
- Metacognition:
- Practice self-reflection to understand your emotional responses and improve communication.
Conclusion
- Steven encourages listeners to adopt the habits outlined in his book while fostering an environment of productive dialogue. He emphasizes that these habits are not exhaustive; continued learning and self-improvement are vital for effective peacemaking in an increasingly divided world.
Further Information
- Book Release: "Habits of a Peacemaker" available in September 2024.
- Website: More information can be found on [Stephen T. Collis' website](http://steventcollis.com).
Call to Action Listeners are encouraged to practice the discussed habits in their daily interactions and explore further training and resources provided by The Art of Charm to enhance their communication skills and peacemaking abilities.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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1:46I will do whatever it takes to get my son back. I honestly didn't see this coming. These nice people killing each other. All Her Fault, a new series streaming now only on Peacock. When I'm at home saying I'm not going to be addicted to my phone anymore, it's not just me against my phone. It's me against departments of people who are trained to keep me on there. That's a huge challenge to overcome, but being aware of it is critical. Welcome to the Art of Charm podcast, where we break down the science of powerful communication and winning mindsets so you have the cheat code to succeed with people.
2:19Every episode is jam-packed with actionable steps to unlock the hidden superpowers inside of you. Level up with us each week by listening to interviews with the best in business, psychology, and relationships. We distill thousands of hours of research into the most effective tools and the latest science so you can start winning today. Let's face it. In order to be seen and heard, your communication needs to cut through the noise. And we're going to show you how. I'm AJ, successfully recovered introvert, entrepreneur, and self-development junkie. And I'm Johnny Zubak, former touring musician, promoter, rock and roller, and co-founder here at The Art of Charm.
2:54And for the last 15 years, we've trained thousands of top performers and teams from every background. We have dedicated our lives to teaching men and women all they need to know about communication, networking, and relationships. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary. All right, let's kick off today's show. Today, we're talking with Stephen T. Collis. Stephen's got the blueprint for navigating even the trickiest topics like a pro. Stephen is a critically acclaimed author of both fiction and nonfiction books. He's a law professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and he's one of the nation's leading thought leaders on the First Amendment, religious liberty, and civil discourse.
3:32His new book is titled Habits of a Peacemaker, 10 Habits to Change Our Potentially Toxic Conversations into Healthy Dialogues, and it comes out in early September. These peacemaking skills are your secret weapon in today's divided world. learn how to navigate difficult conversations at home or at work. He shares the five types of humor and how to use them to your advantage. And we break down how to break through social media noise to build relationships across the divide. Welcome to the show, Stephen. So great to have you. Hey, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. It's an honor. Well, Johnny and I thoroughly enjoyed your book.
4:03And I'm very curious for you to define what a peacemaker is and why it's so important in today's world. Yes, I think a peacemaker, I define a peacemaker as someone who can have productive discourse about hard topics. And I think in our world today, especially with social media doing so much to put us in echo chambers and make communication difficult, people need to be peacemakers more than ever. So we've got a lot of hard topics to discuss, and we need people who can talk about them in a productive way. And how did those skills become a part of your repertoire in your career? It's a good question.
4:33I wish I could tell you I knew at first. I mean, that's part of what led me to want to write this book was that I noticed in my circles, I, you know, as a law professor that studies the First Amendment, I spend my days talking about all of the most controversial topics you can imagine. And I do it with people who are able to have productive discourse about it. And it started getting me wondering, what are we doing? What are the habits that people are engaging in that make this possible? And so for me, I think it's something that somewhat natural and something that developed over time by being in this field and being around people who had expectations of productive discourse.
5:09But what I also know is that anybody can learn it. You know, these are habits that anybody can employ. Yeah. And looking at that, how should our listeners approach these habits and becoming peacemakers themselves? Well, it's just like anything, trying to establish a habit, right? Trying to do something every single day that then becomes part of your life that you're no longer thinking about. I think we have a huge problem, though, which is most technology and social media is designed to become habit forming. That's how an app becomes wildly successful, right, is it gets us to create lots of habits.
5:41Many of those habits actually are the opposite of being productive in our discourse. So we're fighting against a very big and well-educated and intelligent machine that's trying to get us to engage in the opposite of the types of habits I'm talking about in my book. So that is a challenge, but it is becoming aware of our daily routines and then thinking through these habits and how we can incorporate them each day. I'd rather use the word social engineering than habit building because I feel that the habits that they're having us build are antithetical to a happy life, which is connection and those things.
6:19There is nothing in social media that's showing me that things are going to get better. So these skills need to be built up and we need to be aware that these social media platforms are destroying those lines of communication so that we can continue to make sure that they stay open. Yeah, that's a great point. And I speak all over North America about these issues. And I find myself repeatedly educating people on just how sophisticated these social media companies are on keeping people addicted to their platforms. And it's not some high-level conspiracy. I mean, they're not hiding it. It's open, right?
6:57They have teams of psychologists and mathematicians and computer programmers who know, PhDs in psychology, who know how to keep people addicted. And they're employing that. So when I'm at home saying, I'm not going to be addicted to my phone anymore, it's not just me against my phone. It's me against departments of people who are trained to keep me on there. That's a huge challenge to overcome, but being aware of it is critical. Being aware that that's what's happening is critical. There was something that came to light a few weeks ago, and I just equated it to this very problem, which is the cigarette companies and the lab coats that were paid to figure out how to make cigarettes as addictive as possible were then brought into the processed foods industry to do that same job.
7:54And we have the food that we have today due to that arrangement. And you can look around the world and look around America and judge for yourself of whether that was a good or bad thing. I'll let the audience decide that. But if they're willing to do that with our food, what do you think they're willing to do with our technology? It's interesting you make the analogy to tobacco, to food, because what we have with social media is from the gambling industry to social media. So much of what the social media companies use are techniques that the gambling industry perfected. And in particular, a variable reward system, right?
8:34Like when somebody likes us on social media, we get 100 likes. We don't get those immediately as they come in. There's a mathematical formula that delivers those lights to us at the exact perfect pace to keep us addicted, just like the gambling industry keeps you on a slot machine with wins at the exact perfect pace. And they have a mathematical formula for it where they know exactly what to do for our brains to stay addicted, right? So it's a really good analogy. The difference is there is no First Amendment or constitutional provision that clearly protects something like the tobacco industries or the food industries.
9:10So you can get a lot more regulation there. As a First Amendment expert, I can tell you it's much harder to figure out how to regulate social media companies. They're arguably engaging in something that's just as destructive. But how do we regulate them in a way that's consistent with the First Amendment is not clear. We have not solved that yet. And and people like me are spending a lot of time thinking about it. How do we pull that off? We're trying to figure that out. Well, part of the addictive nature of social media, I feel, is the opposite of peacemaking. It is supercharging the discourse in a way that we don't trust the other side.
9:44We feel like everything is a conflict and conflict drives the clicks, the views, the likes, the consumption that creates the addiction. So as a peacemaker, how are you engaging with social media and what do you do to wall yourself off from that temptation? Yeah, so part of one of my early habits, habit number two is I talk about engaging in real learning about our world. And that means really, quite frankly, breaking free from social media. Whatever positives we think we're getting out of it, I think the negatives are far greater. And so how can you use it effectively? One thing you can do is if you're engaging and trying to engage in real learning about our world, part of that means, for example, always hunting for two different news sources with different biases about any given story you might be wanting to learn about.
10:32And you can use social media effectively to do that, not to take what the algorithm feeds you, but to go find two people with different biases on social media who are linking to news stories and then using it as a tool to get to those news stories. But look, you gotta be very careful because you wade into those waters and very quickly they start snagging you and you're reading all sorts of crap you never intended to read. You know, I recommend for some people, if you can't do it that way, if you can't use it where you're using it as a tool for yourself and you find yourself getting sucked into it, far better to set it aside and do research short of social media.
11:10I had a great conversation with a crowd in Canada recently where we were talking about how do we get off our devices? How do we get off social media? And one lady said something that was very helpful. She said, you know, research on addiction shows it's not enough to just try and quit something. You've got to replace it with something positive. You have to replace it. So if we try to get off social media so we can become better peacemakers and good at productive discourse, we have to replace that time with something that gives us a dopamine hit in our brain, gets us excited about life. And so we've got to look for those things.
11:41And that can be any number of things. It can be productive learning. It can be finding long form reading. It can be all sorts of healthy habits. It could be exercise, maybe just sitting down with another human being and having a conversation instead of just scrolling endlessly on our phones, right? Yeah. And with that habit, number two, seeking real learning, I think the challenge for many of us is now our attention span has shrank due to overuse of social media. And it's hard to really sink into a lot of these subjects. So when you started the show, we're talking about complicated issues here that aren't going to be solved in a couple tweets or a storm or a short news article.
12:14But both sides have very strong arguments and beliefs wrapped up behind their viewpoint. So how do we actually seek the real learning that's going to allow us to figure out what either side is really thinking instead of the headlines and the clickbait that we see on social media? Well, I'll tell you what, one thing is so critical. You know, that clickbait and those headlines have increased, made us even dumber than we already are, right? So I talk about in the first chapter, recognizing how little we actually know as human beings. And I mean, as an individual. So, you know, there's research that shows humanity as a whole has gained an incredible amount of knowledge.
12:50It's just stunning. Any one of us are kind of an idiot, right? Like the three of us are sitting here talking. I have absolutely no idea how this microphone is truly working and the data is getting transmitted to you back in real time. I mean, I have a sense of it. But when I really break down to what's happening with the electrons and the protons and what are the different materials involved and what are the regulations, the economic regulations? what is happening in space. When I started thinking about all that, I realized very quickly that my knowledge of what's happening right now is about zero percent.
13:20And that's true of most things in our world. But social media, we read a quick little meme of some silly quote from a politician we like or don't like. It gives us the illusion that we actually know more than we do. So the first thing is to recognize what you just said, which is everything we're getting on social media is probably valueless in terms of actually learning things. And to your point about we've got short attention spans, we have to retrain our brains to be able to focus longer. And long form reading is a really healthy way of doing that. I actually have tried to discipline myself now to make it a habit of my day to actually read books, physical books again, because my phone, I realized my brain needed to be retrained.
14:04And so part of my habits is long form reading. And I mentioned that later in the book also, long form reading isn't just good for real learning and retraining our brains. It's actually good for giving us an inner sense of peace. It lowers cortisol levels, it lowers stress levels, it helps us have a sense of inner peace, which then prepares us to have much more productive conversations about things. Rather than coming off five hours of a social media binge, being all worked up and upset because we read a bunch of things we didn't like and then going out there and arguing with somebody. Well, I know for a lot of our guests, we ask that they send physical books for exactly that reason.
14:38because reading PDFs, I'm on my iPad. It's very easy to click over to something or a notification to pop up. And all of a sudden I lost where I was in the book and I couldn't actually digest exactly what I wanted to share with the audience in terms of the interview. So it's funny to hear that you are going to physical books. I think that is really a hack to get away from the devices to soak in the learning that we need to do to become peacemakers and more well-informed on the subjects that we love to argue so much about. Well, I like what you just said too, which is important to emphasize. It's not just the social media companies that have mastered the art of keeping us addicted.
15:12That is the business model of every app and pretty much every smartphone that's out there, right? The more notices, the more they can keep your eyeballs on the device. So you think you're going to read a PDF, but they've got three notices coming in from four other apps, all trying to get your attention. It makes it impossible, really. That doesn't happen with my hardback books. Exactly. My dog-eared, highlighted books. That's right. Let's talk about the first habit, because I think one thing that a lot of our listeners find in the other person when we're arguing is a lack of this habit. So how do we develop this habit and what is habit number one?
15:48So habit number one is kind of recognizing our own intellectual humility and then reframing conversations accordingly. And a really good habit to get into is what I just described. In any situation or about any topic, pause. You have to get into the habit of pausing and asking yourself, what do I really know about this? I used to get, in my younger years, before I figured this out, I would get into arguments with people about something like tax policy. At some point in my life, I realized I know absolutely nothing about tax policy. like I'm a law professor, I've got advanced degrees, I'm in an academic environment.
16:22I'm literally clueless, really, when I actually think about tax policy and precisely the effects of it. And so we need to get into the habit of recognizing how little we know, which then allows us to reframe conversations rather than trying to argue our viewpoint. We reframe conversations such that we're trying to learn more and we can reframe it with somebody we're talking about. You can say, well, you know, I actually am not quite sure I know enough about tax policy to give a really strong opinion here. So I'd like to understand it better. When somebody comes at you with a hard opinion and you throw that back at them, it'll force them to back up and lower their own tone.
17:03And then together you have a conversation where you're actually trying to learn things. You might actually look something up instead of just arguing with each other for an hour about what you think is the right way to go forward, right? Yeah. And we teach all of our clients in the X-Factor Accelerator that curiosity is one of those traits that's really attractive and interesting and increases your likability. So if you come at it having already decided you know everything and built out your stance and you're not seeking any other information from the other side in that conversation to understand how they reach their opinion, which is different than yours, what they were reading, what they were consuming to get to that viewpoint, you're really defeating your own ability to become more likable and ultimately create the connection that we're all looking for.
17:44Yeah, I love it. I love what you guys do with these trainings and helping people understand some of these skills because it's so vital. I tell a story at the beginning of my book. It's one of my funniest stories from my life where we talk about how we get in a lot of trouble in life when we think we know a lot about something and we don't. And for me, the story was when I was nine years old, I was going to a summer camp. And in my little town in New Mexico, it was really cool for boys like me to spike up our hair. So I went into our bathroom and I got the moose and I spiked up my hair and I was pretty proud of myself.
18:12and then I come walking out of the bathroom, my mom walks by and she starts sniffing and she's like, she says, what does that smell? And I very proudly pointed and say, it's the moose. And her eyes got big and she grabbed me. She spun me around, pushed me back into the bathroom and ran my head in the sink. And it turns out that what I thought was moose was actually her hair removal product Nair. And most of my hair started falling out within days. Right. And I use that as an example that in life, when we think we know a lot about something and we don't, we have strong opinions about it, we get in trouble.
18:43It's true for Nair and it's true about all of these hard topics. But to your point, you know, if you can just recognize how little you know and then want to learn from people you're talking with, it makes you more likable. It leads to more success in your relationships. And more importantly, I think it leads to a productive conversation about a hard topic rather than two people just spouting opinions to each other about something that deep down they probably don't know a lot about. And there are situations in conversation, small talk, meeting new people where maybe you don't have any experience or maybe you aren't as well read as them or maybe you haven't staked out any position.
19:14And we find oftentimes that our clients will feel awkward or try to avoid sharing that they don't know anything when in actuality that's a superpower to be like, I want to learn from you. I'm actually curious to hear more about your opinion. I haven't experienced that. I haven't read that. I've never seen or done that. It actually isn't as dislikable as many people think. They think, oh, I need to share exactly what the other person is interested in in order to create that connection. But allowing the other person to share their thoughts and feelings and their views actually increases your likability.
19:46Yes. And, you know, it's interesting. I spent a lot of time with some very, very, very high level successful folks that, you know, people often be in awe of. They tend to be the most intellectually humble and curious in the room and are not afraid to just admit that they don't know something and they're kind of curious, you know, and And on the rare occasion, we'll all spout a strong opinion. They'll often follow up, not with a combative rhetorical question, but just, you know, something to kind of ask people, where did you get that from? Or where's your evidence for that? I'm curious. And then, of course, that puts me on the defensive.
20:18I got to be careful at that point. But I can tell their attitude is not one of attack. They're genuinely wanting to learn more and know more, which I find very, you know, pleasant to be around. Yeah. Yeah. And that links to a later habit being open to change because many of us, if we aren't expressing that curiosity, then we're closing the door to any change in the future. I know Johnny and I laugh at some of our views over the history of this company, where we were thinking about certain arguments or issues has shifted and changed. And as we've gotten older, we've looked at it as one of the benefits of old age is learning how little we actually know.
20:54Right. And, you know, talking about wanting to have productive discourse is kind of meaningless if you're not open to change. I think the whole idea of making the discourse productive is that you actually get somewhere, right? And that suggests maybe a change of mind, or at least a change of how you think about something. That is so critical and so important just to progress as an individual, but also for an organization or for society to progress. We have to be willing to think about things in a new way and change how we feel about them. You bring up a great point, and that's probably the largest reason why people don't want to get into those arguments or learn, because they've already come to a conclusion about their position.
21:38And that conclusion encapsulates who they are, their identity, the decisions they made in life. And so if they find out that their actual leaning on that position is completely different, that's a shock to their whole system. That rocks them to their, a lot of times, to their core identity. and I see it all the time in political discourse online. I see people who agree together, but they can't agree on what the title of that thing is because they don't agree with the title, but the actual position or what that actually means, we're like, oh, I really enjoy that. Oh, but because the other side enjoys it or somebody that you don't agree with believes in that same thing or has that same position, it's difficult for you to get comfortable with it.
22:36And so that keeps people from having those conversations. How do you advise someone on that? My instinct is to tell people it can't be the case that every single issue on which you might change your mind should go all the way down to your core identity, right? Like we're talking about a lot of things that arguably should be a little more surface level than that. I talk in another place in my book about toxic tribalism, which I feel like, John, you hit on there a little bit, right? That this fear of stepping away from our tribe because our identity is so caught up in whatever tribe we're a part of, right?
23:07And that's toxic tribalism. Tribalism can be a good thing. You need a team and teamwork can be helpful. You can get a lot done with a team and there can be positive tribalism. But this toxic tribalism where you're just terrified of abandoning your tribe on a particular issue is not healthy. Well, think about all of the indications of what that tribe means to you. It's a lot. And so to get into trouble with that tribe or to understand that you might be moving away from it is terrifying for a majority of folks. I myself, I love those challenges. I have my beliefs and ideas and positions on things have changed radically, just even in the last four years, just due to everything that we experienced since COVID.
23:58And I was excited to shed old beliefs for newer ones, only because they made me feel more confident, more powerful, more ideologically clean than having certain contradictions that didn't allow me to feel that way in the past. But again, I welcomed those changes, and I was up for it. And it's part of my work. I love learning. So those opportunities don't come very often. And in fact, I was having this discussion with our X Factor members. A lot of people will chase whatever stimuli that they can as their drug. And maybe it's video games, maybe it is drugs, maybe it's gambling. But radical ideological shifts or massive identity shifts are also incredibly fun and come with a lot of endorphins and stimulus.
24:58In fact, I think that's why I choose intellectual pursuits. You know, I do have a chapter I talk about don't don't behave in a way that everyone fears. That's what you are, right? To kind of like don't validate other people's worst fears about you. But one of those things I think we often do too much is rejecting people when they change their view on something, you know, we kick them out of the tribe. What an unhealthy thing to do. So not only do we need to not be afraid of it the way you were talking, but I think we could all do better at when someone changes their mind, maybe they suddenly disagree with us on something is not kicking them out of the tribe, but learning from them, asking how they reach that conclusion, not trying to argue with them right away and just figuring out, letting them know we still love them.
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25:38They're still our friends. It doesn't go to their core identity. They're still good people and we can still talk to them. It comes down to the three main mechanisms that we call value, which is attention, approval and acceptance. So to have acceptance in your tribe is one thing, but also to have the approval of the decisions that you are making. Oh, my friends like the decisions they're making. They're cool. They're supporting me. That's good. I guess I'm making the right decisions. One of the habits I talk about at the end of the book is it's okay to tell someone, even if you disagree with someone, it's okay to tell someone, you know, I can see how you got there.
26:13I can see how you reached the conclusion you reached, right? And it seems reasonable, even though I've reached a different conclusion. And that's a great habit to get into because it's not, it's not every time, everyone who disagrees with us is not a fool or a monster. Some people's decisions and choices or the conclusions they've reached are within the realm of reasonableness. They're slightly different from our own. And we can say, I can see how you got there. That's a great habit. What's up, analytical thinker? Ready to dial up your charm and master persuasion? Then listen up. Welcome to the Art of Charms X Factor Accelerator.
26:46We've been at it for 17 years, helping over 10 ,000 listeners just like you grow their social capital and improve their dating life. Whether you prefer learning at your own pace or thrive in group coaching settings, we've got your back. Our comprehensive program is packed with secrets on swaying others, nailing chats, the secrets of influence, and the nuances of effective communication and rapid rapport building. Picture this, reading rooms like a pro, nailing every social situation, and a network that flings doors wide open. That could be you with our X-Factor Accelerator. Live implementation sessions, daily accountability, and weekly missions and exercises to hone in your new skills.
27:27Don't just take our word for it. Ask the execs, engineers, and military badasses who've stepped up their game with us. Head over to unlockyourxfactor.com to jump in. Your mastery of influence starts now. Let's unlock your limitless potential at unlockyourxfactor.com. The rise of the toxic tribalism that you talk about, you know, media, certain media companies have taken one side and then they've made caricatures of the other side to keep their tribe's attention, to keep viewership of their side active, engaged, and embroiled in all of the rage baiting that goes on on the media front. And unfortunately, in a lot of those situations, then we get into normal interactions with someone who might be on the other tribe and we default to those caricatures, we default to those negative views of the other side that are foisted on us by the media.
28:19And it does us a disservice to not actually realize that, hey, there's a reasoned way that someone can reach a completely different conclusion than me on this issue. And that shouldn't mean sacrificing my friendship over it. It shouldn't mean sacrificing a relationship over it. But in today's times, it feels like more and more we're comfortable to just retreat to our tribe and avoid anyone who happens to be from another tribe, even if they're a neighbor, even if they're a coworker, even if they're a friend or even worse, a family member? You know, this is there's such a profit motive to pick a tribe and really push your tribe's view of things right now.
28:56Right. Like there's a profit motive for these media companies you're talking about. We all know who they are, but there's a massive profit motive for authors and speakers as well. Right. I often lament that like just telling someone the other day, I'm going to make less money than many authors because I'm not willing to go out, pick a tribe and then bombastically just offend that tribe no matter what. I'm trying to do something different. And I'm probably going to lose money because of it and sell fewer books, but I think it is so unhealthy. But that profit motive is there in the traditional media and that profit motive is there in social media because of the way it works.
29:29And so it's a difficult thing to combat. Yeah. And then you recognize the rise of grifters who don't even live up to what they espouse don't even actually believe the tribal views that they write about. They advocate online simply because they're chasing the views, the clicks and the engagement that leads to the financial gain. That's right. Well, one thing I want to talk a little bit more about is humor, because I think when we think about peacemaking, humor doesn't really come first to mind around how do we break through and have these important, difficult conversations where it seems like both sides are so wound up and humor being interjected might work against us.
30:06But you argue that actually understanding humor and using it to your advantage makes you an adept peacemaker. So how can we do that? How do we utilize humor? You know, I talk about this a lot in the chapter. I think it's absolutely critical. I often will start almost every large audience discussion with some kind of a humorous anecdote. I use the narrow one a lot because, you know, it drives the point home and it makes people kind of feel like, all right, this guy must not be that big of a monster. He's kind of a funny guy, self-deprecating. The key, though, is to understand when it's appropriate and then the right kind of humor.
30:39So I go into my chapter on humor about the different kinds of humor. And I don't think there are people who have a good sense of humor and people who don't. I think what we have is a world where there are different senses of humor. And it's important to kind of recognize where our strengths are, what our type of humor is, what type of humor other people appreciate, and then use it accordingly. I mentioned in the book, one personal anecdote is I have a problem in that people I love and respect the most that I'm the most comfortable with. I often will do kind of a sarcastic, insulting humor towards them.
31:10And what I learned is I was burning friendships. I was ruining relationships because they didn't understand that I was trying, that that for me was a show of affection. I thought I was being funny. What I was actually doing was hurting their feelings. And then of course that made any type of productive and healthy discourse impossible. And it took me a lot of years to realize that. Once I did, I was like, okay, that kind of humor is not going to cut it now. Although I did have one friend who's a beta reader, who was a beta reader of the book, and he saw that section. And immediately now all of our discourse is biting humor towards one another because he's the same way.
31:44And we'd both been holding back. And now it's now we have a good time with it. But it was but we had to recognize what humor worked for each of us, right? And if if I had if I had not realized that he appreciated that humor, I wouldn't I would have just refrained from using the biting humor and stuck to more, you know, Jerry Seinfeld-esque observational humor or something like that. Yeah, humor is one of those things where you get recommended a comedian by a friend and you recognize, oh, you have a different sense of humor than me. I don't find that comedian particularly funny, but you might thoroughly enjoy him and vice versa.
32:14But either way, I find that humor lowers the temperature. So we're talking about high charge situations where conflict, we're getting hot and bothered and frustrated. But if you can lower the temperature as a peacemaker and you can come in and interject a little humor and laughter first, so it allows everyone to cool off a little bit before getting into whatever it is that you want to say or whatever point you want to make, certainly creates a space where we're more open to new ideas than just charging right ahead with the point you want to make or the stories or the anecdotes that you think strengthen your position in a lot of these situations.
32:49And Johnny and I have unfortunately been in situations with mediators and lawyers, and we've always found the best mediators and lawyers are the ones who can use that humor to their advantage, can recognize when humor is the right move and what type of humor the other person enjoys to create that levity in these tense situations where we're trying to negotiate something fiercely to get our advantage across. Right. You know, and it's just so valuable. I was thinking of a meeting as you were talking, and it was in Des Moines, Iowa, at the World Food Bank Prize Hall, this beautiful building in Des Moines.
33:22And there was this big meeting talking about balancing religious liberty interests with LGBTQ plus rights. And so it was a very diverse audience of LGBTQ plus advocates, atheists, people of all sorts of different religions, different government leaders. Everyone's in this space. and there was a lady moderating a panel about one of these topics that could have gone sideways very quickly. She was masterful about saying a few jokes at the beginning, some self-deprecating, some kind of jokes that everyone in the room would appreciate. You know, it was kind of common to all of us in the space that by the time the dialogue actually started, kind of felt like, all right, we can actually say this without being at each other's throats.
34:03We can say our thoughts and feelings. She was very good at that. So the key, though, really is having some self-awareness. If you've got a humor that no one else appreciates, you've got to cut it out like my kind of biting, sarcastic humor. And then having awareness of other people and observing them and trying to get a sense of what type of humor will land with everybody. What type of humor does this person appreciate that maybe is specific to them and taking advantage of that? But, you know, that requires both self-awareness and awareness of people we're talking with. It's one of the things that we do in our X Factor class is getting the guys to be able to read the room and to see those subtle cues that are going to lead you to gather some information that will help you in that sense.
34:50because conflict resolution, we need everybody on board. And we want to make sure that everyone shows up thinking that they're going to be leaving with a win and that with a good conversation and open-mindedness and a willingness to work together, that everyone's leaving that room with a win. So we touched on a few of them. What are the five types of humor that we can employ? So, you know, different people, here's the thing. Different people appreciate different types of humor, and it's really critical to know that, right? I mean, I love the Jerry Seinfeld, Jim Gaffigan type of humor, and I'll be dying laughing, and then I'll show a clip of it to somebody, and they'll kind of look at me like that wasn't funny even a little bit, right?
35:35We all have our different things. So there's the aggressive humor. This is kind of similar to what I was talking about that is my default, which is so funny because it's what I do when I really admire somebody. And to burn bridges with people you really respect and admire is not a good move. And yet that's this aggressive humor. You'll often see it used by bullies. So it's the kind of thing that you really better know who you're talking to if you're going to use that. There's the relatable humor. And this is the type of humor I'm talking about with a Jerry Seinfeld or a Jim Gaffigan. Or I mentioned Nate Bargetsy, right?
36:06It's the kind of humor that, hey, we all have this in common. These are all everyday experiences we all appreciate, right? And we can kind of figure it out. Self-endearing humor. My Nair story is a good example of that, right? You're telling a silly story about yourself that's a little bit self-deprecating, but it's not over the top. It's just enough to make people think, oh, this guy's kind of a charming, funny guy. I can get along with him, right? And then there's self-deprecating humor, which you have to be careful with if you don't want to go too far with it. Uh, because I don't know if you've ever, if you guys ever watched the office, but there's one where, uh, there's an episode where Michael Scott tries to engage in self-deprecating humor.
36:46And as traditional with that character, he goes too far and ends up just being incredibly awkward and painful. Right. Yeah. So it'd be a little bit careful with self-deprecating humor. And then finally there's expressive humor. This one's a little bit difficult. It comes naturally to me. I don't know what happens to me when I get up in front of a crowd, but for some reason, I just start making faces and doing gestures with my body that just make the crowd laugh, even when I don't intend for that to happen. But it's how you express things, right? And you can be up there, the audience will be expecting like a very serious topic, like, oh my gosh, we're talking about freedom of speech and protests with students.
37:22This is super serious. And you get up and you express something in just a certain way that just they were not expecting, and it makes them laugh. That one's a little bit more natural. It's harder to learn, but it's your facial expressions. It's how you deliver a line, that expressive humor that's really helpful. But folks can get on and they can read about these in the book and learn about, maybe practice them out. I advise them to practice them before they're in front of a big audience, maybe around family members or others and get a sense of how they handle these things and figure out what's funny to them as well.
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40:17BJ's Wholesale Club makes holiday hosting so easy, we called in Thanksgiving's original host to talk about it. Pilgrim here. We could have used BJ's back in the day. Imagine stepping off a boat, then foraging for your first Thanksgiving. It's a whole new world now. BJ's brings Thanksgiving right to your door with free same-day delivery on your first order of$100 or more. We're talking turkey, squash, pies, all at prices so good they'll knock the buckle right off your hat. For terms, visit bjs.com slash Thanksgiving and get the same great savings online as in Club. Yeah, I think looking at the comedians that you find most entertaining and fun is a great way to sort of self-assess.
40:54And then also sharing with others that you're learning more about humor. How would you describe me and my sense of humor could be really enlightening for you to see, hey, what is that superpower in terms of humor? Because for me, self-deprecation doesn't come naturally. I feel like I feel inauthentic expressing self-deprecating humor. but then I see comedians get up there and just crush it with self-deprecation. So recognizing what is your sense of humor and playing to your strengths is better than mastering all five. I think that's right. And it really is important to recognize that there isn't, there isn't, like I said, there's not just two categories of people, those who are funny and those who are not.
41:28Everybody has it. We all know that person who is like one of the funniest people we ever meet, but everything they say is as dry as can possibly be, as it can possibly be. And if you're not careful, you don't realize that they're just dropping one joke after another, right? It's kind of just understanding that, being more aware of it, thinking about it as you interact with people, and then you can use it to your advantage and hopefully to increase productive dialogue in our society. Seems like so much of this is built off of a level of self-awareness as a peacemaker. So understanding yourself at a deep level, your emotions, your thoughts, your communication style.
42:03And part of that includes being at inner peace, as you write about in the book. So really understanding that the more that we can calm our own inner turmoil, the more effective we're going to be in those situations of external turmoil. So how can we start to develop a deeper sense of inner peace to become peacemakers? Well, I hate to sound like a broken record, but get off social media. Step one. Step one, get off social media, get off our phones. Right. I mean, what I describe are all the things that I think most of us are aware of, but it's the it's the building the habits into our lives. So it's taking time to journal, taking time to meditate or pray if you believe in prayer.
42:42Both have been scientifically proven to be incredibly effective. Taking time to engage in what I call metacognition. So it's, or I don't call it, but that's what it is called. It's a certain type of journaling, right? So you may have really strong emotions about something, a given situation. You're feeling something. It's probably a thought distortion. taking the time to write down that thought and then writing all the evidence for it and all the evidence against it that gets you out of your own thoughts we've all had the experience where someone will come to us with a problem and we can give them brilliant advice objective brilliant advice and then when we're dealing with the exact same problem or a similar one we can't even we can't think ourselves through it because we're so into the emotions right that act of writing it down has been proven to get ours get us out of our own heads and act almost as if it's called metacognition because you're getting outside of yourself and you're almost treating yourself like you're a third person.
43:34And there you can really think through and gain a sense of peace about yourself. Exercise is critical. You'll notice all of these things are things we cannot do on our phones, generally speaking, or on social media. So I hate to sound like that's, you know, the root cause of all evil. I'm not trying to say that, but I do think we have to carve out time. For me, it's first thing I do every morning. It's quiet time and prayer, meditation, journaling, reading before I start my day. And that helps me get grounded and focus on some of my own thought distortions and keep myself where I need to be. Yeah.
44:12And recognizing those distortions before you ruminate on them and they become days and weeks and months of you tangling yourself in those cognitive distortions. As Johnny says, I think it's so important to recognize that with contemplation, journaling, mindfulness, you can start to recognize some of the patterns that you have that allow you to feel safe, but might be harming you from your ability to see the other side, to be a peacemaker in your own life. That's right. And, you know, all of those activities are the kind that then make you more aware of yourself, right? And that allows you then to be aware of what type of humor you like, what type of humor other people like, who you are as a person.
44:50And it helps you identify those areas that perhaps you get too emotional about. We all have particular topics that we just get us worked up, right? Taking the time to recognize what those are. And then I would recommend to go back to long form reading. Get a lot of books from different perspectives about these issues that get us so worked up and just read these books. Spend more time with those topics that get us really upset. And then more time we spend with them, especially through not reading social media memes or hot YouTube videos, but actually reading long form books will help us be able to process them much better.
45:25Going along with that, spending time with people. So it's not that social media just takes us away from reading and contemplation and mindfulness, but it also takes us away from just having in-person interactions with people that we do disagree with, maybe with people we do agree with, but hearing how they came into agreement with us, just spending more time around people and getting more comfortable understanding the complexities of other people is important. Because so much of the message that we're receiving online and reading about, as I said earlier, is a caricature of other people. And it's easy to make those snap judgments about other people when you haven't really spent that much time around other people, when you spent more time in your head or only focused on the tidbits of information you're consuming online.
46:09Versus, you know, I can be in a heated political disagreement with my uncle and then the lions come on TV and it's Thanksgiving and we're having a great time again. And I don't hold any bad blood over what views he has or his position in an argument. But so many times we withdraw from those people that we disagree with. We avoid those people for tribalism reasons that we disagree with. And we never actually get a deeper understanding of what the other side thinks and feels and how they came to those beliefs. Yeah, you know, just spending time with people doing anything other than talking about hard topics so that then you can talk about the hard topics, right?
46:43Just having fun with folks. I mentioned it in the chat. I have a chapter. One of the habits is exactly that. And I mentioned that it's not my best skill. I think it's the right advice, but it's not my best skill because one, I'm an introvert. And two, or I call myself a functional introvert. I can work a room and do anything with a group of people, but then I got to recover for a while by myself. So that's one problem I have. The other problem I have is I like talking about hard topics. There's a reason this is my profession and that I do it all day. I like thinking about these difficult problems.
47:11But what I realized is a lot of people don't want to just jump right into like, you know, what's the latest free speech debate or what's the latest religious liberty controversy, right? I got to go spend time with people having fun, like you say, watching the Lions game, watching some college football, doing something we both enjoy together. Then when the conversations come, we can realize that both of us are real people with real problems, with real families who are just trying to do our best in this world. and then we can have a serious conversation about something and hopefully a productive one.
47:40Well, that brings up a great point that I'd love to hear your perspective on as you recognize these 10 habits. What are some habits that you really have to work towards yourself and be a little self-reflective on? That spending time with people is huge for me. I mentioned that already. And some of the research I built on in the book, there's a legal scholar named Derek Webb who did some great research into the formation of the United States Constitution. And, you know, we all know the constitution had its flaws. It still has its flaws. It's very controversial topic, but for the time, it's pretty miraculous that that thing was able to be written and adopted because the interests of the 13 colonies were so different from one another and they were all going to be at each other's throats.
48:20The benefit they had or the blessing they had was that they were all in this place where they were forced to kind of, there were only so many restaurants and there were only so many places they could sleep. And so they were forced to spend time together, They're kind of just hanging out outside of the environment where they were debating the provisions of the Constitution. And it was that environment that allowed them to really start to realize that they had some common ground and could achieve what they wanted to achieve. That just does not come naturally to me at all. I have to force myself to do it.
48:50I've got to go and just like, all right, I'm going to go hang out with my friends and we're just going to hang out. Don't bring up the latest controversy you're thinking about. Right. That's one that I really, really have to work at. And then I think like anybody, I have certain topics that I get pretty emotional about and that I, that I've, you know, have strong opinions about, and I've had to recognize what those are. I won't tell you what one of them is, but I'll tell you what I did about it. One time, someone said, well, I want your opinion about this particular topic that was in the news.
49:19And I get, you know, it's a topic I had strong feelings about. And I said, you know, I've reached the point that I've realized it's best for me not to talk about that unless the person I'm talking to has at least done a minimum of some of the same readings I have. And if that person wants to give me some readings, then I'll come back and talk about it later. And I did this on a particular topic. I gave them a list of like 12 things I wanted them to read and watch. They gave me a list of things they wanted me to do. We both did it. And then when we came back, it was actually an amazing conversation that was incredibly productive.
49:51But I've had to, for certain topics, I've had to do that just to make sure I don't leap right in with my strong opinion about something. So going along with that, how do you seek the best argument against you? I know it's a habit that you espouse in the book, and I'm curious how you personally approach that. Yeah, you know, you have to hunt for the best arguments because oftentimes if you're talking with someone or reading someone with whom you disagree, they will have a hard time articulating the best argument against your position, right? So you've got to go look for the most sophisticated sources.
50:24This requires, again, not just following whatever social media provides you, but starting looking for academics or sophisticated thinkers who may have a different opinion than you do, and then reading some of their short work. I'm not unrealistic. I don't think we all have time to read long-form books about every issue under the sun, right? We just don't, which is an important part of intellectual humility, realizing we can never learn everything that we would love to learn. But we can go read an op-ed from a sophisticated person who disagrees with us. One of my more disappointing moments of the last year was my center here hosted an event.
51:01Scholar came, gave a really strong view about something. And I raised my hand and I said, it was in front of a bunch of students. I said, you know, there's a cost to everything. We know that. can you give us the most sophisticated argument against your position? Doesn't mean it's a winning argument, but what is just the most sophisticated argument against your position? And the scholar said, well, there is none. There are no sophisticated arguments against my position. I was so disappointed in that answer. That's somebody who has not taken the time to even read a scholar in the field who hasn't even read other scholars who disagree with her on something.
51:35And it made it at that point much more difficult to take her seriously because I I didn't feel like she'd done it. So it takes the effort of, if I have a strong position about immigration, don't go running out and read everyone that I agree with. Don't go looking for memes on the internet that make me feel good and confirm my bias. Go find a source that I know is opposed to me and then look for the most sophisticated thinkers. In the age of the internet, I think you can get to those people pretty quickly and read the strong arguments against your position. At a minimum, it'll strengthen your argument because you'll be able to respond to it mentally.
52:08but hopefully it'll help you understand more and more the nuances of what you're dealing with. Yeah, and I feel that that opens you up to other positions, even if you may not ultimately agree with them, but just being open to other positions is a powerful way to stay charming and in the skills that we teach our clients to be more relatable, which I think we could all use in this rise of polarization times. Right. So as we wrap, I'd love to hear what you would love our audience to take away from these 10 habits as they think about becoming peacemakers in their own life? You know, I guess my most important thing I'd love for them to take away is that I did not mean for these 10 habits to be exhaustive, which is why I love a podcast like yours where you're training folks in all sorts of skills like this.
52:51I think my hope would be they would take these 10 habits, which are really actually 10 principles with a whole bunch of sub habits that I hope they can then employ in their lives, right? But then keep building on those, using training like what you all provide and observing others in their own lives and try to adopt even more habits that will help them engage in productive discourse. I think that is a critical skill. I hope these 10 will get people started. I think there's a lot more you could employ. Well, thank you so much for stopping by and sharing these 10 with us and our audience. Where can they find out more about you in this book?
53:25Yeah, so the book's called Habits of a Peacemaker launches September 3, 2024. Anywhere books are sold, people can find it. they can go to my website, StephenTCullis.com. It's available there as well. But folks are welcome to reach out to me too. I'd love to hear from them. All right. Thank you for stopping by. Thanks to both of you. Thanks, David.
53:54What a fantastic show we had this week. And this brings us to where we showcase one of our X Factor members. Take it away, David. Hi, my name is Dave and I am a senior software engineer. Art of Charm has helped me advance my career because it gave me the confidence and permission to go out and interview. Within four years of taking the program, no joke, 3x my salary. My favorite AOC concept was that I can build my own belief system. I am not tied to the negative doubt and self-talk that was in my head. I can push forward with who I wanted to be. To anybody thinking about joining, I'd say you won't regret it.
54:28Just do it. Trust the process and you'll have the life that you deserve. David, it was a pleasure working with you two and good luck with all of your upcoming pursuits. 95 % of your success or failure in life comes down to who you surround yourself with. David McClellan of Harvard did a 25-year study on the characteristics of highly motivated, successful people. The people you habitually associate yourself with determine the level of success you achieve. Who you let in your inner circle has a huge impact on your beliefs, your values, and your actions. Here's the kicker. We all have this reference group.
55:02Think of them as your personal board of directors. Surround yourself with winners and magic happens. Imagine transforming your every day just by upgrading your tribe. We created a free mini course for Art of Charm listeners with our best networking strategies and mindsets. Social capital networking is not just another networking guide. It's your doorway to turning acquaintances into lasting connections. Real relationships that push you towards your goals, both personal and professional. Head over to theartofcharm.com slash SC to get your free mini course. If you got value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show.
55:43It means the world to us and it helps others find the show. Before we head out, a huge thank you to our producers, Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. All right, everyone, go out there and have an epic, epic, epic week.
56:01You were the bad boy You threw your love away Like it was just a toy And you sold the world You're a song of a tragedy Cause you had your taste All black on the yesterday Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you You are my favorite, favorite, favorite, favorite
From the publisher
In today's episode, we dive into the art of productive discourse, the challenges posed by modern technology, and the 10 essential habits of a peacemaker with Steven T. Collis, a distinguished law professor and expert in First Amendment rights. As a scholar dedicated to understanding and navigating the complexities of free speech and religious liberty, Steven has spent years engaging in some of the most contentious topics of our time. His insightful perspectives have been shared across North America, where he educates audiences on the sophisticated tactics used by social media companies to keep us addicted and the importance of intellectual humility in today's polarized world. In this episode, we explore key insights from his upcoming book, "Habits of a Peacemaker," available this September.
Join us for an insightful conversation with Steven T. Collis, where he discusses the challenges of modern communication and the critical role of peacemaking in today's polarized society. How can we break free from the habits that social media companies have engineered to keep us addicted and instead foster more productive and meaningful discourse? What are the essential habits that can help us navigate difficult conversations and bridge divides? Steven shares his expert insights on cultivating intellectual humility, the power of real learning, and the surprising ways humor can be a tool for connection. Discover practical strategies to become a more effective peacemaker, enhance your relationships, and contribute to a more respectful and understanding world both online and offline.
What to Listen For
Introduction – 00:00:00
What inspired Steven T. Collis to write "Habits of a Peacemaker" and why is peacemaking more important than ever?
How does Steven’s background in First Amendment law influence his approach to productive discourse?
What challenges do modern technologies, especially social media, pose to our ability to engage in meaningful conversations?
The Art of Productive Discourse – 00:03:00
What habits can help you engage in more productive and respectful conversations?
How can you overcome the addictive nature of social media to focus on real learning and intellectual humility?
Why is it important to seek out differing viewpoints, and how can this practice improve your understanding of complex issues?
Social Media's Impact on Communication – 00:10:45
How do social media platforms use psychological techniques from the gambling industry to keep users engaged?
What are the dangers of echo chambers and how can they hinder productive discourse?
What strategies can you use to protect yourself from the negative effects of social media on your communication habits?
Developing Intellectual Humility – 00:16:14
What does it mean to have intellectual humility, and why is it crucial for productive dialogue?
How can you reframe conversations to focus on learning rather than debating?
Why is it important to recognize the limits of your knowledge, especially when discussing complex topics?
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