Radical Listening: Transform Your Relationships | Christian van Nieuwerburgh and Robert Biswas-Diener

27:38It's going to be difficult. They're not going to want to hear it. I don't want to have it. Right. And so many of us in that situation focus on what we're going to say. The preparation is all around our delivery and the words and very little time is spent on how is it going to be received and all of those other components that we talked about. And one thing that Johnny and I have remarked about over the last 18 years is we can't tell you how many top performers come to us and rate themselves over the top on listening. I am a fantastic listener. I'm an excellent listener. I am one of the best listeners you've ever met in your life is a refrain we hear time and time again in our work.

28:16And it's interesting because listening as you break down in the book, it's a bunch of skills working together ultimately to form a bedrock foundation of great communication. So I think it's really helpful when we start to unpack the skills. And I know you touched on a few of them in your last answer, but really, I think that's what allows us to self-reflect and say, okay, am I really a great listener? Are some of these skills really firing at the max? And it's some of these skills maybe I'm struggling with. And if you recognize any patterns as we talk about the skills that top performers have, maybe blind spots to some of these skills that are a part of radical listening.

28:53To go along with a lot of our clients and high performers that we've talked to rating themselves as incredible listeners, all you have to do to shatter that notion is to ask them, What did you hear? And then you begin to realize, and you could point out, you were a good listener when it comes to these things that you were listening for. But now I'm going to ask you, what did you catch about this? I didn't catch anything about that. What did you catch about this? I didn't catch anything about that. because you're not listening for those things. You are maybe you're at AJ and I use the Oscar Tromboli five levels of listening in our classes.

29:40So that first level of listening to themselves, they do that all day. That second level of data and information, facts and figures for problem solving. Well, most of our clients, I would say a good portion of them are highly analytical. So they're great there too. Facts, figures, they can tell you all of those things. Like, what are the emotional bids that you heard? What did you label that conversation? What was the emotional labeling? Huh? What? There's emotion there? Oh, so now we want to redirect your attention to the other three levels of information that are there for you to begin making assessments on.

30:20And like any boat captain, if you don't have all the information, you cannot direct your boat. You cannot navigate. right? You don't have longitude, latitude, North Star, all of the positioning. Well, then you can't navigate that boat. You need all of that information. So for us, it's getting them to understand there's much more information to be gathered and here's what it is. And then for us in our work, in our classes, it's now let's practice that listening and develop it. Because Because again, I could tell you what to listen for. It doesn't mean you're going to catch it because it's a muscle that needs to be developed.

31:03It's a skill that needs to be developed. But one of the things that I notice is that people either overrate themselves, as you said. They feel pretty confident about their own listening ability, or they go completely the other way and they think, oh, I'm not very good at it at all. I just need to improve it at everything. But what I really love to see is a little bit of what Christian called intellectual humility, which is just this idea that I think I'm pretty good at some stuff, but I also recognize that I have some biases, some limitations. And one of the leaders that we interviewed for this book, who I really loved, just started by saying, in my role as a leader, the very fact that I am a senior executive means that I'm going to listen less.

31:54And just acknowledging that right up front, she said, my whole role is about big strategy thinking. And any information that comes my way that isn't relevant to strategy is something that I'm not really paying that close of attention to. And she worked in a conglomeration where she's working across language groups, cultural groups, even industry groups. And she said, you know, I'll be speaking through a translator to a line manager that's talking about day-to-day operations. And it's just boring to me. It doesn't seem relevant. I don't have a way to translate that into the stuff that I need to be doing for strategy.

32:37and what she did as a result of this is created what she called listening ambassadors and they were sort of the Rumpelstiltskins who were able to spin the straw into gold that she could use and sometimes they would just be a little bit closer to that person's position they might be a native of that person's language or culture group and they were able to translate that to some bigger picture thinking and I was blown away by the by the self-knowledge this leader had that said, you know what, I'm not good at listening. And it's not because I'm a bad person or have an awful personality. My role just put some constraints around that.

33:19John, I just wanted to answer, one of our skills is noticing. We think that that's something that listeners need to be able to do, is develop their ability to notice. And like you said, John, there's just so much data. In fact, too much data for us to pick up everything. But it's an important skill. What are you noticing about what's going on between the two of you or within the group? What are you noticing about what's happening for the client? What are you noticing about the language that's being used? It's just so much. And that brings us back to this idea of intention, because we say that intention drives attention.

33:59So like you said, if we're trying to solve something, we're all in a team meeting and we're trying to figure something out. Yeah, now I am listening for facts and numbers and data and processes. That's what I should be noticing. But if we're having a conversation about tough times coming ahead, then I'm going to be noticing the bids, like you said. What are the bids? What is it that this person really wants out of this conversation? And what intrigues me when you look at the notes that are taken at, you know, let's say C-suite or leadership team meetings, the notes are really of what was said, who said what.

34:39It's kind of level one, level two, kind of really factual information. But while that's going on, there's so much else. So I think if we set our intention, then we know, OK, in this conversation, I'm going to be paying more attention to that kind of data. And because it's just not possible for us, I think, to take in everything.

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38:56I know exactly what I said. I reviewed it. I found all the weaknesses in my delivery and things that I could do better, right? Because again, top performers, they want to keep improving. It's a big part of the growth mindset. And I think that leads to this blind spot around listening of, well, I'm replaying it. And in my assessment, I can improve, but I was definitely listening. I was definitely getting everything that was going on in the room. And that's why I love this idea of the silent three skills of really noticing the quiet and the accepting. It's invisible to others, but it really is foundational to you starting to pick up what's going on conversationally outside of just the data, outside of just the figures, the deck, the presentation, and starting to recognize your own emotions.

39:40So am I feeling tension? Am I bringing tension to this conversation? And then tune into others' emotions in the conversation. I've got an idea here for your listeners who are saying, look, we want to practice this, right? So we want to practice. We want to get better. How do I pick these things up? I'm going to say something very challenging now, which is record yourself, video record yourself in a conversation. Find some people you trust. Say, look, I'm going to be sitting here. I'm going to be doing my best listening. Would it be okay if we video record this? And then watch it back, right? Because when we're playing things back in our mind, we're looking at it from our perspective and we're only able to see what we noticed, obviously.

40:25But if we're watching a video, playing it back, we'll notice things like, what do I look like to others while I'm listening? I was working with, in my coaching, I was working with a client who said, oh, I'm a great listener. they did this activity and they came back and said to me, oh my gosh, I just looked so bored when I was listening to them. And in their mind, it was because they were concentrating so hard. They were really trying to listen. But when they watched the video back, it looked like they were looking down, they weren't maintaining eye contact, and they were embarrassed. They said, oh my gosh, is this what I look like when I listen?

41:04And so that would be, and then the other advantage of if you take yourself out of the situation yourself, you haven't got all that inner talk going on, you haven't got those emotions, you'll notice so much else that's going on when you're under less pressure. So that would be maybe a fun, maybe not so fun, but a useful way, I think, to become aware of how am I actually perceived as a listener? How do I come across to others? And if we're serious about becoming better listeners, I think that kind of really challenging work might be helpful. I know Johnny and I are smiling and nodding along because that's exactly what we do in our programs.

41:50And we call that the processing phase, right? So when we're really stuck on absorbing data and information and trying to analyze everything, we lose that emotion output in our face. And in our processing, we actually look disinterested. We look bored. We can look angry and frustrated as we're processing that information. and of course the other person receiving that, they're getting hung up on our emotional state. They don't see us as a great listener. They see us as pretty upset with them and it can be pretty jarring to watch yourself on video. The great thing now in the post-pandemic world is we're always on video.

42:26So if you can grab a Zoom recording where you're talking with a colleague, if you join our coaching program and you go through the exercise, you start to see, okay, how am I nonverbal signaling while I'm listening? What also is really helpful that we found is when you go in and watch the tape, watch the video with an intention of now I just want to listen to the emotions in this conversation. I want to set aside all the data and information. And can I pick up the emotional context of what's being said? And OK, now let's watch it back. And what wasn't said, what wasn't shared in the conversation?

42:58Oh, there was a moment where the other person crossed their arms and it looked like they wanted to say something, but they didn't. Huh. That's listening on a deeper level. Now we're moving beyond that internal chatter of how am I being perceived? What are the people thinking of me? And oh, just the facts and information being exchanged to where we want to connect, which is emotionally. We want to connect on the unsaid. We want to get to the deeper meaning of, why is this person sharing that? Why is it important in conversation for them to add that anecdote or for them to add that story? It's very important to them.

43:30So what's the meaning behind it? Those are the ways that we work with our clients to strengthen their listening skills. And when you start to pick up on it, then you get excited. You're like, all right, I want to watch that TV show again. I want to rewatch that movie and see the signals now that I wasn't paying attention to previously. I love it. I'm probably going to steal it in some ways and use it in some of my own trainings. I'm curious because we all work in the same space. I want to ask you all a question and I'm hoping it's not going to lead to a big disagreement between all of us. One of the things I like about radical listening is that it lets you off the hook for listening to everything, right?

44:09In some abstract world, we'd say, wouldn't it be great if you could just listen to what's being said, the language and how it's being said, the emotions behind it, the why it's being said, what's not being said, the context in which it's being said, everyone's reaction to how it's being said, but you kind of can't. It's just not the way that attention works. You can't pay attention to all that stuff simultaneously. simultaneously. So it's sort of like you might be jumping between those or might be selecting a couple of those. I just want to know what you think about that idea, because I could be wrong about that.

44:43No, I completely agree. And one thing that I love about that exercise, when you start to recognize the different levels and start to pay attention to different things, you can revisit those moments and deepen the relationship. So maybe you weren't listening to it completely in the beginning, or you didn't catch that on the first pass because your attention was on the data that was on the slide. But you can come back to that colleague and say, you know what, like, I definitely recognized in that meeting that you were pretty frustrated. I know I was really focused on, you know, what you were presenting, but what's going on?

45:13You know, I hadn't seen you that frustrated in a while. So you can revisit those moments where maybe you weren't fully zoned in and you weren't responsive to what you were picking up on. And you aren't as then focused on, I got to catch all five levels. You recognize that by moving through those levels, you actually work to build deeper connections with your colleagues, your friends, your partner. I know we've talked a lot about work context, but let's be honest, when we're listening to the most important people in our life, we oftentimes make assumptions based on, well, we've had these conversations before.

45:43You've told me this story a million times, you know, my spouse. So I'm going to just get to the point. But in actuality, you can use those five signals to continue to deepen and strengthen those relationships as you recognize, well, yeah, I'm not gonna be able to juggle all five while I'm listening in conversation with that person. But, oh, yeah, on the drive home, you know what? I really got to come back and revisit that. I should share that with my wife because now I recognize that she left that part out or, oh, wow, I was really surprised that her tone took that sound or her tone took that volume with me when we were talking.

46:17I hadn't really realized it in the moment. Wow. There's something really powerful in what you just said. And the idea that the conversation's not over when the two people walk away from one another, that conversations actually, because they exist in our minds and can be restarted the next time we're together, they're sort of these more enduring interactions than we might at first think. I think that's really worth considering. Yeah. And when you showcase that level of investment with the people that really matter in your life, they feel more connected to you because you're really validating them.

46:54You're valuing them in ways that others are not when they're just listening for data and information or they're just listening to that chatter in their own head and thinking about what they're going to eat for lunch instead of the conversation that we're having here. And that is an opportunity we all have. We all have those colleagues. We all have those people in our life that we really value. And if we can bring that extra level of listening, even if it's after the conversation, We didn't pick up in the moment. That's really enlightening for a lot of our clients of like, wow, OK, it's OK that I missed it in that initial conversation.

47:26But if I come back to that person with that, that colleague, well, they're going to work harder on the next project. They're going to be excited to have my support behind their initiative or, oh, wow, my spouse is really going to feel heard, even if in the moment she felt pushed away because I wasn't paying attention to exactly what the meaning was of her sharing that. it could, in fact, strengthen the relationship, like you're saying, of going back and saying, you know, I do remember when you were talking to me about that thing, I was a bit distracted because I had all this other stuff. Something had just come into my inbox.

48:00It was an urgent thing. And now that I'm thinking back, you were probably telling me something important. So I'm really sorry that that happened. I just love that idea. And one of the things that has become clearer to Robert and I since we wrote the book is we were thinking the worst possible thing you can do is not listen to someone. And any of our listeners here who has not been listened to, they know how painful that is. They know how diminished they might feel if they're talking about something, the other person isn't listening to them. We were thinking, well, that's the worst possible thing.

48:37But actually, it's emerged from us as we've had these kinds of conversations, We've talked to our colleagues and friends that there's worse than that, which is the half listening. And I think we're at greater risk with those most important relationships in our lives of half listening because we're kind of used to it. We've had those conversations. And what I mean by half listening is giving off signals that you are actually interested in what they have to say. And you kind of like, hey, let's talk about it. and then some way halfway through the conversation you become distracted or you think oh i've got all these other things to be doing so i think that giving mixed signals about i'm i'm here to that's what i mean about it's actually better to say look i can't really listen to you right now i've got this thing i've got a present i've got a podcast coming up with a art of charm in the next 10 minutes.

49:31I'd like to talk to you about this later. Those kinds of things. And I think we're all guilty of it. That's why I'm mentioning it. I'm hoping our listeners are all feeling a moment of recognition of, oh yeah, I do that sometimes. I give an impression that I'm going to listen, but then it turns out I stop listening. That's something that could be very damaging that we might be doing inadvertently. That framework that you bring up in the book of listening for versus listening to is really at play here. You know, I'm listening for you to feel acknowledged and for you to just finish what you're saying so I can get back to prepping for this podcast.

50:07Or I'm listening for you to get that off your chest so that I can go back to doing this thing that I need to do versus listening to in order to to really understand what is going on and why this person is communicating that. It's two entirely different things. And I think so many of us, especially in the always on environment that we're in, work 24-7, notifications robbing us of our full attention. We spend a lot more time half listening and a lot less time fully listening, especially to the people that matter the most to us. I think it's important to understand the consequences of it, right? Because most people think, well, the half listening, the consequences are the other person's going to be mad at me.

50:51Okay, well, that's the other person. The reality is, the consequences are on you. You're taking the consequences. People are not going to be sharing with you. You're not going to be trusted. People are not going to be comfortable with you. And that will precede you in other areas as well. That's going to follow you around. So ultimately, you're the one who gets hurt, not the other person. I think that's a great point, John. And some of the reason why the half listening comes about, I think, is well-intentioned. At least I'm making an effort. Really, I'd like to just be doing my email, but at least I'm kind of shifting towards you.

51:37Or at least I'm on my way to the meeting, but I'm saying, well, walk with me so that I'll give you at least two minutes on my way to the meeting. But too often, what we're really doing is demonstrating to the person that they're the second choice or backstage in our attention. The thing for me in writing this book that was most eye-opening was writing about these sort of well-intentioned obstacles to listening. I mean, everyone knows their phone is an obstacle to listening or notifications or emails, these types of things. But some of the things just like being polite is an obstacle to listening.

52:15And when you're being polite to someone, you don't want to disagree. You don't want to stir the pot. You don't want to say anything too intimate or too tender. So you're just kind of politely nodding. That's a huge impasse to true connection and really paying attention to what they're saying. This kind of half listening is another one. Christian said, feeling confident in your own point of view is another one. They're all so well-intentioned. It's not just the awful interrupters that are the problem. It's the people who are trying to connect, but just doing so poorly. When you mentioned half-listeners, I immediately thought to myself, who do I know or is in my life am I annoyed with that are half-listeners?

53:03and everyone that popped in my mind were people that I have nixed from my life. Oh, wow. So that certainly lent itself to me being frustrated and being like, I'm not dealing with a, I didn't think of it ever as a half listener. And usually when I think of all those folks, that was one of many problems, but it was certainly whose pictures popped up in my mind when you said that. Well, John and AJ, I just want to appreciate and acknowledge both of you for being wonderful listeners. You're really, honestly, such wonderful, radical listeners, because it's obvious you've taken time to read the book, and I know how popular your podcast is, so for you to take the time to do that.

53:47And John, for you to be kind of so engaged with what you're saying that you're thinking about people within your context. And this is an example of radical listening. Ultimately, it's conveying to the person you're talking to that you're interested in the topic or them. And so you've been doing that. And AJ, you did another one of the techniques that I think a good radical listener does, which is if the other person starts talking, you give way. and you did that once, I apologize, I don't like interrupting, but I had butted in and you said, AJ, you said, oh no, you go ahead. And that's really radical listening, which is kind of saying, I'm interested in what you have to say rather than I'm more interested in following through on the point that I started with.

54:35So I call that giving way. So there are lots of techniques, but all of the techniques are really just in aid of conveying your true intention, which is my intention, is to listen to you in a way that's respectful and appreciative. And as I said earlier, if we can just convey to the other person that they've been seen, heard, and valued, that's really important. And John, when you talk about nixing people, You know, all of the well-being theories, both Robert and I are pretty involved with positive psychology. Every well-being theory I'm aware of, positive relationships is an essential part of our well-being.

55:20And what I mean by positive relationship is a relationship, those relationships in which I feel better, those relationships where I feel valued. And I think it's a good thing to evaluate our relationships from that point of view and say, what are those relationships? And make sure we've got enough of these positive relationships. In other words, people where if I have something to say, I will be listened to. I think that's an important part of it.

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56:33Like tea time you. Mmm. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you. So did you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you. Mmm. So update on Dave. It's up to you. We'll take the laundry. Rinse. It's time to be great. I think for me, a skill in the book that was surprising was interjecting. I know as an interviewer, it's hard, especially in a virtual context like this, when to jump in, when not. And I know for a lot of our clients, they struggle with that on Zoom. And what ends up happening for a lot of them, the feedback comes across that they seem disinterested or they aren't sharing their views.

57:17And it's largely because they're struggling with the skill of interjecting. How is that a skill of listening and what can we do to strengthen that for those of us who tend to be a little bit more introverted and concerned about decorum and being polite? Absolutely. So this is maybe one of the places where the radical really is radical and radical listening because it is counterintuitive that interrupting another person would be the highest form of the most engaged listening possible. Most people, regardless of what culture you come from, have been raised in a very turn-taking approach to conversations.

57:54It's your turn. When you're completely done, I'll take a turn back and forth. But that's not actually how conversations unfold in everyday life. We are constantly kind of stepping over one another a little bit. If you think about interruption as any time that just two people are speaking simultaneously, if John, I think, said something before, like, oh, I nixed these people for my life, And I think I said, oh, wow. And that technically was an interruption, right? I was kind of talking over him while he said that. But what I was doing was communicating to him how affected I was by what he said.

58:30He probably didn't even clock that as an interruption. He just thought, Robert's listening to me. But I was speaking over him. And the trick to having an interruption or an interjection that is not perceived as rude is to get in and get out. So you're going to jump in and you're going to emphasize a point. Oh, wow. Really? Wait, can you clarify that? Who was that you're talking about again? Like, I can't believe it. That's the most amazing thing I've ever heard. And then you jump out and you return the turn to speak to the speaker. So the speaker never feels robbed of the podium, as it were, and you have communicated to them that you're tracking them, that you are having an emotional experience with them, that you value what they're saying.

59:19even things just like laughing at something funny they've said is in some ways kind of a small interjection. The reverse of this is when you let the person talk and at the end of five minutes of them prattling on, you say, oh, I want to go back to something you said five minutes ago. And that can feel so bad to the speaker. Why did you let me talk for so long? If you knew five minutes ago that you, what the thing was that we were going to be drilling down on. And what often happens there is you recognize that, well, they probably stopped listening four and a half minutes ago because they were hung up on that point they wanted to share.

59:59And, you know, the exercise that I give our clients mentally for this is pick your favorite place to hang out with your favorite friend, the person you have the best spirited conversations with. Do you talk in turns? Are you playing tennis where one person volleys it over, you wait for the other person to completely finish their thought and then they volley? Not at all. You're using your hands, you're getting in there, you're laughing, you're communicating over each other, you're stepping on each other's toes because it's such a spirited conversation because you're so entranced with the conversation going on.

1:00:33It doesn't matter what's going on around you. It doesn't matter the games on the TV or the people next to you are being loud. That's what we're talking about here. And that interjection is a huge part of that communication. The person who brought me up, my mother was Japanese. And so it was so deeply ingrained in me that you never interrupt people. It's just so rude, you know, and I was very well trained. So it was only working with Robert and I was very resistant. And Robert initially called it interrupting. I said, we can't write a book and include interrupting. And I think the compromise was interjection, this idea of you kind of jump in and jump out.

1:01:14But the funniest thing's been happening to me because I've learned it. And even in this conversation, I've been jumping in. I've been saying things here and there. And it just shows I'm excited. I'm enthusiastic about what we're talking about. And I'm sure that the previous way I did it, AJ and John, you'd both be thinking, well, Christian isn't that engaged, but I'd really just be waiting for my turn patiently. And you wouldn't have picked that up. And the funniest thing that's happening now is I've got my chat GPT friend. So I'm asking chat GPT questions, and then I'm interjecting. And the one thing I can't do is get it to carry on talking.

1:01:56and I keep saying to it, I said, look, if I jump in with a tiny word like, oh, really? Or, okay, don't stop. But it's just no way. So I think it's a particularly human thing, AJ, like you say, our ability when we're at our best to kind of duck and dive and chuck in a word there just means we're so well aligned. And I want to come back to Robert's point. We're not taking somebody's turn. We're kind of, it's more like it's a bit of a dance. We kind of jump in, I throw in a word, but I don't take over the conversation. I'm just adding to it. Yeah. And that's the interjection versus the interruption.

1:02:35The interruption to me feels like you're taking it in another direction or you're circling it back to yourself. The interjection is highlighting those key moments where you're super enthused and you're doubling down on whatever the person communicating with you is sharing. And the question that we get once we've scared our clients a little bit around their listening skills is, okay, how do I actually know that I'm getting better? What's the feedback loop where you start to recognize I'm becoming a better listener? We broke it down into six skills. We talked about the motivation and recognizing intent.

1:03:10But for those listening who now recognize, I want to get better at this. This is important to me. What are those signs that you're starting to improve as a listener? Well, people do give you feedback. And are people saying, please don't interrupt? I think you're being rude? Do you hear they're complaining about you behind your back? I think one thing we might not do enough of is just kind of transparency in our process. I certainly do this with my coaching clients on day one, but I just say, I tend to interrupt. And I try and do so in a polite way. I'll do so by asking your permission. I'll tell you why.

1:03:47But normally, it's because I want to highlight something that just happened that's really important. If I do it too much, please let me know. I'm capable of change. If I'm just stepping on your toes or I'm trying to jump in, you say, Robert, just let me go. I don't want an interruption right now. And sort of empowering them to push back on my interruption. So I request ongoing feedback from them. And I do get that feedback in those relationships. People do sometimes say, I'm having a hard time keeping my points in mind when you keep jumping in, Robert. So please don't do that. And I want to just add to something John said about the half listening.

1:04:28He was saying, you know, it's not only the other person who's affected, you're also affected negatively by it. I think the converse or the reverse is true, AJ, in the sense that if you're getting better at these conversations. It's better for you as well. You're going to be feeling better about these conversations. This idea that it's mutually humanizing. If you start feeling after a conversation, oh, you know, that was a good, I felt better about that, that both people feel better. Those are the signs. And of course, and so leaders have to think carefully about doing this, more people are going to want to come and have conversations with you because they feel good.

1:05:10So I think it's kind of strange to evaluate it based on how good these conversations feel. But if you feel, oh, good, good, that was good. I feel good about that conversation. You're probably being a better listener. I've definitely found for our clients, they start to see more of an emotional reaction as they start to deepen and strengthen their listening skills. So they're now paying more attention to the emotions, but they're also recognizing from the other person that they're just getting more emotional. They're feeling more comfortable sharing emotionally with them as they recognize that, hey, you're listening to me and validating me and valuing me in a way that I haven't received from you in conversation before.

1:05:51And it's really positive for us to hear that with our clients who are trying to be better leaders and really lean into that at work and motivate their team. And maybe they've gotten some feedback that they're lacking in executive presence or, you know, the people that are working for them aren't performing at a high level. They recognize, hey, I got to strengthen my listening skills here to be that more impactful leader. But then the even better part is when their spouse notices a difference, their best friend notices a difference. And it's like, man, you know, they'll call it out. They'll actually give you that feedback.

1:06:21Like this has been a great conversation for me or you've never listened to me talk about that before. You've never asked me those questions before. That's really a sign for us that, hey, we're on the right path here. We're really strengthening the most important skill, like the bedrock foundational skill. of all relationships in your life, and as positive psychologists, you know how important those positive relationships are, is listening. And it's a skill that I continue to strengthen, even in my age and doing the show and interviewing thousands of people, I still am strengthening these skills, recognizing that I can be distracted, there could be obstacles, there could be a hunger in my belly that's taking away my attention.

1:07:00And I just wanna show up in my best in every conversation, every context for the other person. Yeah, AJ, that gives me a beautiful opportunity to say something that, you know, tomorrow morning I'll wish, oh, why didn't I say that? So thank you, AJ. When you were talking about preparation, how do we prepare? I think we need to look after ourselves as well when we're talking about how do we prepare for these conversations. One way to prepare is looking after ourselves. Because if we're running on empty, and I'm thinking about some of the leaders and the people in organizations that you're mentioning, it's tough times at the moment.

1:07:41So part of being able to give our full attention to others is that we're okay. you know, that we've had a decent night's sleep or we, if we're running, you know, running on empty and we've got meetings back to back from 6 a.m. right till the end of the day, we're not going to be able to give that level of attention that our conversational partners deserve. So this idea, part of the preparation for, especially for leaders, especially during challenging times is to look after themselves. I recently had a conversation with one of our executive coaching clients about exactly that. We were looking at his calendar and it was just back to back to back to back meetings.

1:08:26No break for himself, no reset, no ability to set an intention going into the next meeting. And we're talking interviewing potentially new staff members. We're talking solving big problems departmentally. And then we're talking motivating the team members that work directly for him. and he was finding by the end of the day, he was completely exhausted. And while these meetings were going on, of course he had his inbox open. So he's getting the notifications too. And he did 360 feedback. And the one piece that stood through all the feedback that he got was that he seems distracted and disinterested.

1:08:59And that was really disheartening for him with all the care in the world, with this company being his baby and this team being so important to him to get that piercing feedback. And I shared with him, What if you just shorten those meetings to 45 minutes instead of an hour and gave you a 15 minute reset to do some air squats, to recenter yourself, to think about how you want to appear in the next meeting if you're pitching potential clients? You know, that takes a different mindset than handling conflict versus planning a party. All the different hats we wear as leaders, we don't think about the time and the space we need to set that intention to be a great radical listener.

1:09:37Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. And then, AJ, that person goes home, right? So that's the other part of what we were talking about. So they're running on empathy. They feel they're not delivering. And then you just want to go home. You haven't got any energy left to listen to anyone. And it could be that that's where our most important relationships are. So there's that important connection. And as Robert and I were writing this book, we had leaders and people in organizations firmly kind of as our intended reader. But secretly, you know, our hope is like, it seems like your hope as well is that this does translate into people's most important relationships.

1:10:22So I'd be delighted to hear that as a result of people listening to this podcast, they've made a few changes here and there. But the most wonderful feedback will be, oh, it's actually impacted some of my personal or friendship relationships as well. In closing, obviously researching, setting out to write this book, I'd love to hear what behavior changes came out of your research and intention behind this book personally. I've done two things. One of my own personal faults as a listener is I do a lot of what we would call mind reading. That is, I think like you guys, many people, you know, you're pretty smart.

1:11:02You've got a lot of social acumen And you kind of see where someone's headed as they start talking, and you just have a tendency to jump to the end. And so you're already poised to respond to their final conclusion. But it's a bit rude because they haven't yet gotten there, and you don't even know if you're correct, if they actually are going to end up in the place that you're predicting. So I've tried to be more cognizant of my own mind reading and have a little more humility and be like, I'm not 100 % sure where they're going, and maybe I should just wait it out. It's both respectful to them, and I might be pleasantly surprised that they might have a twist at the end.

1:11:44So that's a major shift for me. And for me, I mean, you've all experienced it today in the sense of I would never interject before I wrote this book. So that's one big change already. But the other is to adopt a mantra of, it's not about me. And that relates to the kind of challenging conversations we were talking about earlier. Because I don't want to offend people, and I spend a lot of time, you know, I tend towards introversion as well, AJ. So I was thinking a lot about, I don't really want to be in that conversation. There's going to be a lot of tension at that meeting. How do I minimize the chances of there being disagreement?

1:12:28So I used to spend a lot of time thinking about what can I do to minimize discomfort for myself. And so I think what I've learned is that idea of what do the other people need, not what is it I need. And the little mantra I use, because I notice myself going into that, and I just have to say in this next professional interaction, it's not about me. You know, this is the outcome I want. So it's not whether I'm going to be comfortable in the conversation or not. This is a conversation that needs to happen. What's the intention? Well, I want to go in, be appreciative. And so it's turning the gaze outwards into what do other people need in this next conversation.

1:13:10That's definitely a big shift for me as well. We love both of those shifts. And we really appreciate both of you joining us today for this great conversation. Where can our audience members find out more about the work that you both do? I have a website called coachonamotorcycle.com. Please invite me back, guys, John and AJ. I can talk more about that. But there's a lot of information about all of the work I do. I do lots of different kinds of projects. So coachonamotorcycle.com for me. And people can find out about my coaching presentations, these books at intentionalhappiness.com. Well, thank you both for joining us.

1:13:51We really appreciate it. Thank you, guys. Yeah, thank you so much. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. Thanks so much.

1:14:05And now comes the part of the show where we showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Clint. This is Clint, and I'm in capital sales. I'm a former X Factor student. I joined X Factor because I felt I needed more personal and professional growth. I considered myself successful in my career, but when it came to having conversations with customers, I felt I wasn't building relationships to their full potential. I then started noticing I was having similar shortfalls in personal relationships. Additionally, I felt a confidence void in certain situations, and I was hoping I could improve on that as well.

1:14:44Through the work I did at X Factor and the core confidence course, I was able to improve on both of these areas of my life. And since completing the X Factor, I've transitioned to a new position and the skills learned helped me securing an approximate 30 % increase in pay. So to any guy who considers himself a driven individual, but feels he's not quite achieving all he thinks is possible in his current situation. I'd say look hard at joining X Factor. It sure did great things for me. Thank you, Clint. It was an honor and a pleasure working with you two and good luck to you and all of your future endeavors.

1:15:23If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, please head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It would mean the world to us and helps others find the show. Before we head out, a huge thank you to our producers, Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. Until next week, go out there and be charming.

1:16:07We used to be Yeah, but I remember you Oh, yeah I remember you In my life In my life In my life In my life