Rejection Is Part of the Job | Dr. Abbie Maroño​

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0:47If you're a cashier or you're a cook in a restaurant and you have a customer who is shouting at you and being aggressive, you don't want to be polite to them. You wanna spit in their food, but you have to sometimes pants yourself and be polite and then you see them chill out. You see them feel bad, become sympathetic.

1:13Welcome back to the show, Abby. Great to have you. Great to be here. Persuasion often gets a bad rap and I think there's some negative connotation that goes along with it. What do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions that people have around persuasion and influence? well I think a lot of people think that it gets rid of your free will that if someone is really persuasive that it means that you know they're going to be in control of you but we also have to remember that we can say no and we don't have to be persuaded so if you teach people about persuasion you can teach them how to protect against people using it negatively so people kind of have that fear of like oh well if you're teaching persuasion you're teaching people how to make others do things without their knowledge.

1:56It's like, well, we also have free will, so it's not quite what it seems. There's another component to that as well. I have to make content for the Art of Charm, and I constantly get complaints that I'm teaching dark empathy skills as if this is some Machiavellian concept. The reality is these are common skills that marketers and understood in psychology, and they give you an edge above everybody else to do what you need to do in life. All of this information is online, and now we live in an AI world. If I want to learn how to persuade somebody, I'm going to look it up, and I'm going to use it to my advantage.

2:44Absolutely. People have to have an understanding that just because they are not educated on these topics doesn't mean that no one else can use them. Yeah, and we forget too, it's not just business people that use these techniques. Social engineering trying to elicit information from someone or make someone do something you want them to do. Kids do it. You know, they ask for a favor from mom. Mom says no. So they adapt their approach and go ask dad. That is technically social engineering. Or you find when you're like, oh, my partner is being oddly kind to me. They're being really wonderful. And the next thing you know, they ask you for a favor or they want to stay out a little bit later or anything like that.

3:28That is social engineering. That is all influence and persuasion. And the way I try and teach it is absolutely the techniques I teach can be used for bad. Of course they can. I don't promote them for bad. I promote ethical influence and you can also teach it slightly differently instead of using techniques to influence negative emotions like you can get people to do things out of fear or anger we don't create negative emotions on purpose because that is harmful so we get them to do it because they want to do it we create trust and cooperation and I push for I don't promote the use of these unethically, but I can't make you use them in a certain way.

4:10That's your choice. We just have to have our own initiative of, is this going to actually harm someone? And if so, then let me take a different approach. And also understanding the concepts allow you to know if someone's trying to harm you, which I think is another important point in all of this. Absolutely. So you introduced this concept of pro-social engineering in the book. What do you mean by that? Because I know our audience has heard of social engineering before. Pro-social behavior means behavior that benefits other people. And when I think about social engineering, it's so negative because it's about eliciting information in a scam or a malicious attack, or you're trying to get someone's address or social security number to then commit fraud or commit some kind of attack.

4:58And that is social engineering as we think about it. but the way that I teach it is you're not trying to influence someone into maladaptive or negative behavior you're trying to influence trust and cooperation so it's really pro-social and you're not trying to get them to tell you something you're trying to get them to want to tell you something and that for me is why I said the term needs to change because if people are going to realize that to influence others you don't need to do it out of fear like we use a lot of tactics like scarcity and tactics of you know you have very limited time or if you don't do this something negative is going to happen and that creates a negative psychological effect and that is related to social engineering and that's what we think about so i know if i'm going to try and push people to use it ethically you kind of have to change the term sometimes because we get so locked in on the idea of this is what it means so i was like okay let me move away from just social engineering because that has the manipulation kind of tag to it.

6:02And let's make it fully pro-social. So you're influencing just positive emotions and you're moving away from the negative side. And I think pro-social takes your reputation into account. So it's always easier to manipulate and trick someone or scam someone. But what happens to your reputation if you're known as the scammer? You're certainly not pro-social. Yeah. And that is such an important point because I was doing an interview recently about the influence tactics I use and was saying that these other negative tactics don't really work and he said well no that they work amazingly and I said well let me clarify they don't work long term so if you want an influence approach once you want to make that sale and you are just focused on that one sale my tactics are not necessarily for you you're going to be thinking okay how do i get this one deal if you want long term influence if you want to not just create a sale but you want to create a partnership or you want to create a positive reputation you want long-standing influence this is where the positive tactics are so important that's why reputation is so important so yeah absolutely creating scarcity and creating anger and fear will work for that one attempt.

7:20You might get your car sales or you might make that business deal. But what about that relationship? And now if they feel hard done by, you're going to be losing business because they're going to go and tell people how they feel. They're not going to come back. Their friends aren't going to come back. I want to teach the influence that is making you an influential person, a person that people want to work with, not just end up working with because they feel like they should. And what often gets lost in that is, okay, you'll get the initial sale, but what if that person now doesn't refer their friends to you, right?

7:56If you're the used car salesman who sells the one car, but does it in a way that's scammy or manipulative, you're not going to get the referrals where the rest of their family members are going to come buy a car from you. Yeah. And this is what I call taking the long versus the short road. And if you take the short road where you use the really easy tactics that are fast and effective, because influence where it's positive emotions is much slower than negative. It takes longer to build trust and rapport than it does to make someone act out of instinct. So it is the longer road. So you don't always get your wins as quickly.

8:31And maybe there's a speech you really want and someone else gets it that takes the short road. And you think, oh, maybe I should have lied about my skillset. Maybe I should have pretended that that other person's work was my own work and done what they did and get that win but they took the short road and you get those little wins but eventually people start to feel hard done by and they start to feel negative towards you so the person taking the long road has a lot to catch up on but the thing with the long road is as you move forward you leave people feeling good you leave people wanting to keep working with you so opportunities will keep arising you actually do a good job you're not overselling your skill set so people rehire you maybe you didn't get that big win because they want someone that says okay you come in and you teach people how to be deception detection experts and that other person takes the short road and says oh yeah my speech will do that everybody will leave as a lie detecting machine they get the speech and you go no no that's not how it works they go okay well i don't want that but you keep your integrity when people don't leave as lie detector and experts, they're not going to rehire that person.

9:42So the short road gets you those little wins, but the long road will overtake. And by miles and miles, it just takes longer. And that's why I always say if you really want to be a powerful, influential leader, you have to have the patience to use the positive skill sets. And it can be a really hard thing to do because that short road is tempting, especially when it's like I could get a higher salary. I could get that bigger deal. I can make that quick sale. I don't want to have to put all the time into building these relationships. Fine, do that. But that other person that is doing the longer road, they'll eventually come out on top.

10:22Yeah, it comes with a hidden cost that I think is difficult to see in the short term view. It does. Now, you also talk about how important it It is for influence to be guided by biopsychosocial principles and really this combination of the three areas of science that create influence. I think a lot of us don't really think about that. We think, again, in the short term of like, what are the tricks or tactics? But unpack that for us. Yeah, the reason that I wanted to do my framework this way is I don't say do X, Y, Z and you'll get this result. I say here's how people think and here's how you can apply it to each individual person because I think of it as like if you if you go to the doctors and you say I have this stomach ache I'm feeling really unwell and they go oh okay I I know what to do and they give you these tablets and say take them three times a day and you go okay great so what's the problem and they go I don't know and they go okay well what do the tablets do and they go I don't know but someone else came in with your same symptoms they took these and now they feel great and their problems have gone away so it worked for you in that situation you go I don't just want to know that it worked for someone else I want to know what the tablets do I want to know that you know what you're doing but when it comes to influence we stand and listen to people say do xyz and it'll work for you because it worked for me and we go brilliant thank you and go off and do it we don't always ask well how does it work what's happening in the brain why does this tactic influence people and how do you know that it influences people we just kind of take it at face value and then we go off and wonder why we don't get the results or wonder why it worked with this person but not with this person we don't need more people going hey do xyz and it'll work 100 % of the time we have enough of that on TikTok.

12:21So I didn't want to give a list of tactics. What I wanted to do was say, here's how you can understand the basics of how people think. And obviously it's complicated. People are very complicated, but we need a basic understanding that we can then apply to other people. And I think of people like plants. So there are thousands of different kinds of plants. Look at a cheese plant versus a cactus, right? They're so different. But everything needs the same basic stuff. Water, soil, sunlight. Well, if you look at a human being, we're also different, but we are 99.9 % genetically identical. Our brains, although vastly individual, are structurally very much the same.

13:06So if you understand that the basics of how a human being thinks and works you can take that understanding and utilize it to think okay well how do I influence them to think the way that I want them to think and that's that one percent or that point one percent even that individuality is so key and a lot of people forget that it's biopsycho and social they focus either just on the evolutionary or just on the right now or just on one field and forget that if we really want to understand how people think, we need to take the biology and the psychology into consideration. But in a way that is understandable, because if I just threw all of that science at people, they wouldn't really be able to do anything with it.

13:55So you need to kind of simplify it enough that people can do something with it, but not so much that it loses the integrity.

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17:44That is the most human instinct. So we seek safety and we avoid threats. And when we feel threatened, nothing else matters to escape that danger. And then the second principle is that we are designed to cooperate. We are a social species. We've lived in groups throughout evolution and we've needed those social groups to survive. and these two principles are so important for influence because think about it if we seek safety and avoid threats when you think about an interrogation or an interview the first image that comes in your head is you know that officer leaning over the desk shouting at the individual or we think okay well how do I make them feel like they have to give me this information or bad things will happen you trigger the survival drive you become a threat so if you're trying to influence someone and you don't realize that the most basic instincts seek safety avoid threats and you become that threat you're creating more cortisol in that person cortisol blocks information retrieval so put it simply the brain is made of electric we communicate our neurons communicate by electrical signals so if i'm trying to get information from the back of my brain a neuron will pass a signal to another go get the information pass it back so my mouth thought goes in thought comes out the mouth right in out but the neuron needs to pass on a signal and then recharge to then bring it back because it's a two-way process go get the information and give it to me if there's too much cortisol it can't recharge so it can't actually get the information back.

19:29So when you're being really aggressive and you're saying, give me this, give me this, you're triggering that survival drive, increasing cortisol, and you're actually biologically reducing their ability to give you information. And that basic understanding is so important in any situation where it's a negotiation, an interview, an interrogation of If you press too hard, you're creating a biological issue that they can't now access the information you want. So with that in mind, we then take principle number two, that we're a social species. So what approaches are going to be more effective? Well, given we're designed to be social or we've evolved to be social, building rapport, building trust, creating cooperation via that rapport building is going to be much more effective.

20:24and then there are three other principles that kind of build on those two and one is that we are our brains if i said to you would you prefer to have a brain transplant keep your body have someone else's brain or keep your brain have someone else's body most people would say of course my brain because we are our brains so if we want to influence people having just a basic the understanding of neural processes and how the brain works is really important. And then principle number four is the mind-body feedback loop, the fact that we are both biological and psychological in nature. So one influences the other.

21:06For example, there was an amazing study, and I love this study, that had two yogurts and one was labeled full fat, That one was labeled low fat. Same yogurt. And there's a hormone in our guts called ghrelin that tells us when we're full, it's released and says, hey, stop eating. They had both yogurts. Ghrelin was released faster when they drank the yogurt that said full fat because we expected it to be. So the thought changed the biology. And now, of course, our biology, the way our brain works, our cortisol, our hormones, serotonin all of these things that are biological they change how we think so one influences the other so if you change someone's environment you can change their thinking if you change their thinking you can change how they interact with the environment so that understanding is really important for influence too and then the final one is where that one or 0.1 percent comes in self-identity the self-identity refers to the way we perceive ourselves to be our characteristics qualities beliefs that define who we are and we like to believe that the way we see ourself reflects our true nature and we are motivated to preserve that nature so if you're trying to influence someone with that understanding think about who is that person what matters to that person how do they see themselves because if you're trying to influence them in a way that makes them contradict their self-image, they're not going to do it.

22:40Like if I'm someone who is very stoic, I'm going to see being emotionally restrained as a sign of strength. If I'm someone who is very vulnerable, I'm going to see openness and transparency as a sign of strength. So if I'm trying to influence that person, an understanding of their self-identity is going to really help me shape my influence approach. I love that. I'd love to drill down in the first principle around the survival instinct because I think for a lot of us, that example of the interrogation, leaning on the desk, yes, that feels threatening. But there are a lot of other things that we do and we're trying to influence people that we don't realize or recognize as threatening.

23:21What are some examples of ways that we might appear threatening without even realizing it? I got asked this recently by a friend of mine. He said that he was having issues with a current client and the current client has bought from them many, many times. But this time he's holding out because there's a competitor that he's been going to. So they gave him an ultimatum. If anyone who has ever been given an ultimatum by their partner, you will know it doesn't feel good because we give ultimatums when we're desperate because we think, okay, this will pressure them into going my direction. But ultimatums are threats disguised as choices.

24:02Because if we think about that survival drive that we seek safety and avoid threats, what is so important for that is that we feel we are in control. When we are not in control, it feels unsafe. Our brain can't predict the outcome. And being able to predict the outcome is safety. That's what the brain is craving. That's why routine is so important for so many of us because it's predictable. That's why partners who are inconsistent makes us feel so unsafe and our nervous system so unsettled because we can't predict what's happening. So we seek this sense of control and we like to feel, okay, I know what's going to happen.

24:48So if you give someone an ultimatum, you are threatening their sense of control because it now, like I said, it's a threat disguised as a choice. Yeah. And that ability to choose is so important. I know when we're trying to influence someone, we want to narrow their number of choices and hope they make the choice that we want, but we still have to give them choice to allow them to feel that control. Yep. And this is why I teach one thing that is really great for that, where you're giving them a choice but you're not really so you're allowing them to feel they are in control so if I'm influencing one thing when I think of that survival principle I'm thinking how do I not threaten it and how do I satisfy it how do I give them a sense of safety so I want them to take a particular route but I want them to feel like they chose to take that route so I'll give them a structured choice.

25:41So say I'm in an interview and I want a suspect to cooperate with me. What I might say instead of saying, okay, well, tell me what happened here. I'm going to say, would you like to start from the beginning or would you like to go over things we've already covered in a little bit more detail? Now they're choosing the route of the conversation. So they have a little bit of a choice of, okay, where am I taking this conversation? They don't really have a choice because I'm still getting the thing that I want, but I'm giving them a perceived choice. I'm giving them perceived control. And allowing them to then actually act on that choice creates in their mind the psychological safety that allows them to move forward versus saying, tell me what happened here.

26:32Exactly. And it creates psychological investment too, because if I've given you a choice of, do you want to go here or here and you've chosen to go here once we choose something we become more invested into it if someone says this is a route that we're taking we're less psychologically invested so we're going to be less cooperative and one thing too that people really shy away from doing is reminding people you can say no like if i'm interviewing a suspect or if i'm reading them their rights and I want them to waive their claim to having an attorney present. One thing that officers will really shy away from doing in a sustainable negotiation is reminding them they can say no because they think, oh, if I tell them they can say no, they're going to say no.

27:20They know they can say no. They know they don't have to talk to you. In a negotiation or an interview, they know they have free will. But when you remind someone that they can say no and you remind them that they don't have to be there you're showing them that they have a choice you're giving them perceived control so they feel like it's less of a threat so often when you say to people like you are more than welcome to walk away from this that is absolutely in your right to do so and I won't stop you but what I would really like to do is I would like to be able to help you. And I would really like to see your side of the story if you will allow me to provide you that support.

28:04And if you will allow me to see what your side of the story is, they're going to be more willing to stay and have a conversation with you than if you go, I need you to talk to me. You have to talk to me or come and talk to me. But we shy away from doing it often. And it's the same in business deals, reminding people that they don't have to be there and they don't have to attend this or they don't have to be part of something, it doesn't make them more likely to leave it. It makes them more likely to stay. Oftentimes, the no can be very helpful in influencing other people. We get afraid of the no.

28:39Maybe we're trying to get something from people and we don't want to hear no. It doesn't lead us to the decision that we want them to make. But that no can actually be really helpful in the sales process to stop following up and wasting time with this person or handle what might be an objection that you didn't cover in your presentation from that no. So giving them the choice and allowing them to say no actually makes them more likely to be influenced. Yeah, absolutely. Well, one thing that strikes me in all of this learning the tactics and the strategies is it can feel very inauthentic, especially when you're just starting out and you're trying to influence people.

29:15But you write in the book that authenticity is actually a really key part of this. And when we're being inauthentic, we actually lose our ability to influence. The way that I try and teach it is you have a coin and you have both sides of the coin. Now, when it comes to being trustworthy, we think of it as a mask. And I think that that is such a harmful way to think about it in the long term. Again, if you want to do that one deal, then it's probably going to work for you. But if you really want to be influential and have those long partnerships, you have to think of both sides and now both sides is being perceived as and being.

29:57So being perceived as confident and being perceived as trustworthy, it will open doors. But if you walk in the room and you're not trustworthy, you'll get kicked out the room eventually. But if you are trustworthy but you don't know how to present yourself as trustworthy the door won't open so you have to understand how to present yourself in a trustworthy way how to have good non-verbal communication how to speak to people but that doesn't mean that's all you need those tactics to get through the door because like i said once you're in the room what now what happens now if you're inconsistent that's why it's also really important to realize that when it comes to influence and persuasion it's not just about that one move it's actually how do i understand what people need and how do i become someone that's trustworthy how do i actually understand how to make people feel safe how do i understand how to be some of people trust and it's like with trust we think about how do i get trust how do i gain trust and even that thinking is wrong because as a species we are trustworthy we have we have evolved to be trusting because we wouldn't be a social species otherwise if we were naturally skeptical we wouldn't be able to have the social group survival so as we've evolved and now we're in a modern society our nature is still trusting we trust by default but we have learned to be skeptical so we fight our natural instinct as a social species because we know that it's in our best interest to be skeptical.

31:46So actually, if we realize that nature, that principle number two, that naturally we're a social species, we change the phrasing. Okay, well, it's not that I need to convince people to be trusting. It's that I need to show them I'm trustworthy. So instead of focusing on that tactic of the short term, get what I want, how do I get trust how do I show I'm trustworthy how do I be trustworthy and we frame it like that that's also why I say the long road because it means really looking at the way you treat people the way you interact with yourself and think what isn't working for me and why and how do I embed this as a long-term change not a strategy not a how do I use it to get what I want or instead how do I actually become someone that people want to give this to?

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