Role Mate to Soul Mate | Dr. Warren Farrell

27:56What's common among developed nations? Developed nations usually have mastered a greater deal of survival skills than less developed nations. So developed nations can give people the option of having a divorce. Less developed nations are focused on survival and they can't allow the social permission or the legislative permission for divorce nearly as easily. But once you have survival taken care of, then you look for things like a happy life and a fulfilled life. And so I'm not being fulfilled with my husband, with my wife. So therefore, I want the option of divorcing. You don't worry about that if you can barely survive.

28:34You do pay attention to that once you can survive. Just one last point on the divorce situation. Children who are old enough, 8, 9, 10, they start to figure things out. And the minute there is a rift in that parental structure, they will exploit it. I certainly did when I was a young teenager and saw that in my family. I used their getting divorced as leverage to get the things that I wanted. It doesn't take very much for a child to figure that he can play both of them off, which only divides everything even further. Three answers to that question. Yes, yes, and yes. And then the third comment, I'm just shocked that you would ever have thought of doing that as a child.

29:21One thing that I do want to point out that was strong in the book, too, is the idea that success in your career, those skills do not translate to success in love. And one feature or bug of modernity is now the cost of raising a family requires two working partners. It requires both parents being active in the workforce for most people, for majority of people now. And with that, we're now bringing these skills that help us in our career into our relationships, and they do not work to create the functioning, healthy relationship communication that we need to be successful. But a lot of us can't untangle ourselves from that because work has become 24-7, 365.

30:06Yes. So let's deal with that. There's two very important things there. One is the success-love tension. the tension between success at work and love at home. And I'll spend a minute on that. And the other one is the belief of what is needed to make a couple happy or to make a family happy. So one of the interesting studies was the Harvard University's 80-year longitudinal study on happiness. And what they discovered was that if we're a family of four, depending on where you live in the United States, it takes about somewhere between$60 ,000 and$90 ,000 a year to raise a family of four in a way that if you have more than that, once you've reached that level, that happiness is achievable more by additional time with the family than it is by additional time at work.

30:57And so it's really important for most people to hear that because we almost always, as a family of four or a family of two or three, increases their income they start having aspirations for things that cost more income, better home, better neighborhood, and so on. But the studies of which families are happy are the ones that base amount, what I would call survival amount, is achieved. The additional time is worth more than the additional dime. The second is what you project out, and I'm really glad you saw this in Role Made to Salme and AJ, is the tension between the qualities it takes to be successful at work and the qualities that it takes to be successful in love.

31:43So for example, let's say you're a top executive at Boeing and you have eight salespeople trying to sell you a better door, let's say. So to be a good CEO, you listen for a while and you start asking yourself questions inside of yourself. You start self-listening and you listen to yourself say, is this person have a good reputation? Does this person, have they sold other things in the past? Have they worked? How can I fit this into my Japanese infrastructure? We're having a lot of people quit at Boeing here and we're firing a lot of people. How will the new people be able to adapt to this particular method?

32:19And so you're doing a hundred functional thing. You're having yourself listening in a number of ways that are very functional for being a good CEO. So if you're really doing that for years, your brain gets wired to self-listen. So now you take that wired brain to self-listen and you come home to your wife or your children or your husband or your children, and you find that your husband or your wife is saying that they've had a really challenging day at work and you listen to them for a few seconds and then you start thinking and you start self-listening. You say, oh, I have a solution to that.

32:51And particularly if you're a male executive and you love your wife and your wife is having challenges, when a man loves a woman and a woman is having challenges, it's like for a man, a woman's bleeding. And your instinct as a man is like, if you care about my wife, if I care about my wife, there's nothing I would consider doing than stopping that bleeding by putting this Band-Aid on that bleeding. But the way to put the Band-Aid on the bleeding is not by giving her a solution. It's by the way to solve the problem is allowing her to just listen. Now, women who are top executives end up having the same problem also, not only with their husbands, but also with their children.

33:33Men have it to a deeper degree proportionally, but both are the wrong solution. So the qualities it takes to be successful at work, which is self-listening, is included in those qualities, are in tension with the qualities it takes to be successful at love. And the way that I can get through to top executives about that is that when you just listen and then follow listening with more listening. And then you share, and then your wife says to you, she pauses, instead of coming up with a solution, just stop with knowing that you've already solved the problem by listening. Now, what about if she asks you for your ideas?

34:16Just say, I'll be happy to offer you an idea or two, but do you have any ideas? Oftentimes, as a person takes the time to vent, they have ideas in their mind as to possible solutions. And it honors that person to ask for their ideas first, and then maybe offer your own ideas afterwards. But the solution is listening, followed by listening, followed by asking your wife or your children's or your husband's and children's perspectives on what they've vented about. Yeah. And I know it in my own relationship. We talk about it with our clients, how important it is to recognize when someone is seeking emotional validation and not solutions to problems.

34:59But when we've worked in an environment that's 24-7, 365 solutioning, I got a Slack notification, I got an email in my inbox, and I got a solution, whatever that message is, it's hard then to put on your validation hat when you get home with your partner and listen and listen and listen to problems that you internally feel like you already have solutions for without just blurting it out and wanting to move forward with dinner and then get back to the other solutions at work that you need to solve. Absolutely. And this is really something biological. I mean, when you are becoming successful and you begin to hone the art of solving problems and self-listening to do that, listening to yourself, begin to hone solutions while somebody else is talking, and your brain begins to adapt to that and neurons connect in a certain way.

35:49And then you come back home and those neurons are still connecting that way. You're just, you, you've learned to do, you know, a very, very good quick solution. And so that's important. Part of what needs to come up in the caring and sharing time is, you know, helping the other person know, you know, that time when you really listened to me and you just listened to me. And then I asked you for some ideas and you said, well, I'll be happy to give them, but what are your ideas first? I felt so called upon. I felt so validated. I felt so heard. Or conversely, sharing in a caring and sharing time that when you just interrupt me like that and come up with an idea, I feel on some level that you're saying that you could figure out in a few seconds what I couldn't figure out in a lifetime.

36:33And I know you're trying to help me, but somehow or other, that didn't make me feel honored. I want to touch on the appreciation piece because I think it dovetails with what I've also experienced in my own life from family and friends, which is when one partner chooses then to do kin work, that kin work is not rewarded in the same way that you're rewarded in your career with promotions, salary increases, achievement awards, recognition and call outs. that kin work is head down. And large part, the child is not able for most of their lives to appreciate what's going on. They're just trying to survive and you're trying to help support them.

37:11And then your partner is struggling now on a single income, trying to lean heavier into work to unlock more income to support the family. And it creates a situation where there is no appreciation happening. And both partners feel unappreciated. And one thing that we recognized in our relationship was it is important to create a routine. So for us, it's Friday night, date night. And we hope once we start a family to continue this routine with some help and support. But for the two of us to come together at the end of each week and to be appreciative of one another and to be grateful for what we have as a couple.

37:49And we have not skipped a Friday, even while traveling, even when work stuff has come up, we've always carved that out. And it's just been there. It's been foundational to our relationship. And when we have had struggles with communication, we know that that Friday is coming up to help us solve that. So instead of looking at it like, okay, now I need to rush to read the book and I got to solve this. How about you create a habit and routine with your partner to work on having that consistent communication, that consistent opportunity to appreciate and be grateful for one another before we even introduce the criticism so that we are in a regular cadence keeping connected with our partner, recognizing that there's so many other distractions going on outside of our relationship that easily suck our attention away.

38:35Boy, I so agree with that, AJ. And when you move to that next level and you have children, one of the most functional things I think that I talk about in Rolemate to Soulmate is creating family dinner nights without creating family dinner nightmares. And the first step, as you know, I say in that is no electronics at the table. And I teach people, parents, sometimes parents will say to me something like, oh, I tell my children no electronics at the table, Well, then they still bring his electronics at the table. And I say, you know something? You're the child. The child is the parent. But what do you mean I have no leverage?

39:13Excuse me, do you cook a meal for your child? Do you prepare desserts for your child? Do you take them to places? Do you buy them things? And you have more leverage than, you know, we could sit here and develop your leverage for an hour's worth of itemized things that you do for your child. And at that family dinner night, once the electronics are away from the table and you have enforcement mechanisms to do that, the next thing is to require to teach everyone in the family dinner nights how to do those appreciations at multiple levels of specificity. What do you appreciate about your brother, your sister?

39:50Ah, you know, after you get through the ah. No, I'm sorry. You don't have the option of just ending with ah. If you want to end this family dinner night and get back to your video games, you're going to actually appreciate something about my sister, my brother. Oh, they're my brother. And then you teach them the five levels of specificity, and they'll hate it at first. And that's part of what you require at that family dinner night in order for them to, quote, be released from family dinner night. And then you as a parent, you model appreciating each of the children. but then you also ask the children to appreciate you and their brother and sister.

40:30Why? Because parents that are just empathetic do not create empathetic children. If their one-way empathy begets self-centeredness, it does not beget empathy. So children have to see how empathy is modeled by a parent, but a parent can't stop by being empathetic. The parent must require the child to know how to empathize with the mother and father going through what their brother and sister is going through. And so appreciate them and be empathetic to them. The people who understand this and catch this most quickly are teachers. Oftentimes there'll be a very empathetic, warm, loving child in the class and the teacher will be expecting to meet a parent that are very empathetic and warm and that type of thing.

41:18And oftentimes they find parents that are a little it that way, but they're also quite disciplined in their orientation. And the reverse. Oftentimes, they have children that are very self-centered, and they'll meet parents who are loving and empathetic and appreciative. And they begin to see that one-way empathy does not beget empathy, it begets self-centeredness. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. That's Mint Mobile's whole thing. Their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. And that's why I love Mint Mobile premium wireless service for just 15 bucks a month.

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44:59take back control of your confidence and intimacy. Get up to 95 % off treatment with Rex MD. Visit rexmd.com slash charm. That's rexmd.com slash charm. See full details and usage at rexmd.com. Prescription required. Results may vary. Well, we're huge fans of appreciation and we believe that and we teach our clients that it deepens every relationship in your life, not just with partners or with your children. So I'd love to unpack the five levels of appreciation to help our audience, because I think, and when we introduce this in our class, a lot of times when we think of appreciation, we think of external things like, oh, I love that shirt you're wearing, or hey, Johnny, thank you for getting your hair done before the show here.

45:43It's looking great. But those surface level things that anyone can appreciate us by really carry no weight in a relationship. And when we're talking about people, we really want to deepen a relationship with, it takes a level of thoughtfulness, validation, understanding, and really care to appreciate someone deeply. So how can we as partners and as friends appreciate others better? Yes, actually, I'll even take that to a more challenging level. Let's say you're getting together at Thanksgiving or the holidays and you're meeting with your family members. And of course, everybody's desire is to increase the love and closeness.

46:18That's what family's about. But one of them just voted for Trump, but the other one just voted for Kamala Harris. And you just can't understand why one of them would do whatever is different from what you are doing. And in the past, you've gotten into arguments about this. And so you've decided that the best way to do this is don't discuss politics, don't discuss religion. But that's kind of sad because politics and religion are reflections of people's values. And isn't it sad to get together with somebody you love and want to deepen your appreciation for and love for and just ignore all these areas because they may create conflict.

46:52Wouldn't it be wonderful to really understand what's the virtue behind these values? And so the first thing that I would have, what I train couples to do. So once they learn all the techniques that I teach in the workshop for their interpersonal communication as a couple, I then ask people in the workshop who have different political views to work on hearing each other. And so the first step is what I call alone power. So you might say to your brother or your sister or your cousin, I'd really love to understand and hear your perspective on things. And I'm willing to do that alone for you until you feel fully seen for the values you have and appreciated for the values you have, even if they're different than mine.

47:38I would love it if at the end you do this for me as well, but that's not a requirement. I just want to do this for you. So the first step is what I call alone power. The second step is appreciating them. So you say, well, I remember when we were kids and, you know, and you, let's say the sister's talking to our brother and said, you know, I remember, especially this time, our early Thanksgivings and, you know, an uncle Joe said this and I disagreed with him. I think you disagreed with him, but you stood up and you said to uncle Joe, uncle Joe, I have, you know, a different perspective on that.

48:11I remember you reading stuff about that perspective. And so I appreciate so much how you kept yourself informed. I also appreciated the fact that I didn't have the guts to stand up to Uncle Joe, but you did. And you did it very nicely. You didn't just yell at him. You just said, Uncle Joe, here's my perspective on that. Do you agree? And Uncle Joe didn't agree, but you stayed with it. And you weren't ruled by the need to get approval all the time. I so respected that about you. So what have we done here? As you can see that those appreciations were at multiple levels. The sister didn't say to the brother or vice versa, you know, I think you were really a great kid.

48:50Something, you know, or, you know, I always liked the dresses you wore or the, you know, or the clothes you wore, things like that. But you rather really got to the core of who they were as a human being, how they expressed themselves, the courage that they had, the ability to articulate, the ability to read and so on. Now, eventually you're going to have a different perspective than that person, but that person has just felt appreciated at multiple levels. And that sort of is a very important entry into being able to feel that they are going to eventually be willing to hear a perspective that's different.

49:29Another thing that you do is you find one of the wisdoms in Rolemate to Soulmate is the wisdom of every virtue taken to its extreme becomes a vice. And so people like Tim Walsh and Jeff Walsh, Tim Walsh is the potential vice president's brother who has not spoken to Jeff. Jeff has not spoken to Tim for eight years, he says, because of Tim's progressive ideology. And so one of the things that might happen is Jeff feels that feminism is all about cancel culture and things like that. Very anti-male and is always talking about the patriarchy and men as the oppressors and women as the oppressed. But instead of saying that, he starts out with asking himself, what's the virtue in feminism?

50:11The virtue in feminism may have gone on the virtue train so far that it moved into Viceland. But for a few minutes, pay attention to the original virtue. And so search. This requires discipline. Search for somebody in your life, maybe your daughter, maybe your wife, who generations ago before feminism would never have considered becoming an executive or a scientist. And your daughter is now talking about wanting to do that type of profession. and everybody else around her is open to seeing her as being capable of doing that and doesn't feel it's against, you know, that she should just be a homemaker or, you know, a secretary, a nurse or whatever, a teacher, but she should be able to do anything that she wishes to do with her life.

51:00So is there anybody in your life who has benefited from these doors that feminism has opened? If so, sharing that with Tim. And then when it gets to the reverse, instead of focusing on the other cancel culture dimensions or the anti-male dimensions of feminism, you both appreciate the virtue first. The next is to look at what you have in common. Okay, so Tim and Jeff Walsh, what do they have in common? Or what does your brother or sister you're having in common with you, if you're both having very different political opinions, you are both caring. Neither of you is apathetic. You may have six other people at your Thanksgiving dinner table, or maybe 12 other people that don't really care about these issues.

51:47But what is democracy based on? It's based on caring. It's based on not being apathetic. So this is what you both have in common more than anybody else at our dinner table, we both care. We both end up being empathetic and not being empathetic. And then you move into the caring and sharing process that I discussed before. Let me hear not just the virtues, but let me hear what your perspective is on this. Why do you feel feminism is awful? Why do you feel feminism is good? Why do you think that guns are crucial? Why do you think that guns are American society's sickness? And so on. And no matter what the perspective is, your job is not to argue with it.

52:35Your job is to be in an altered state and share what you heard the person you disagree with say until they feel that even if you disagree with them, that you have at least heard what they said in the way that they said it, that you haven't distorted anything, that you haven't missed anything, and that you're inviting them to even add something more. When that process is finished, and then you end it with new appreciations, your brother or sister or somebody in your family will feel so loved and so understood. And there's zero requirement for anybody to change their opinions about the politics.

53:15They just need to know that you're not holding them as the devil. Yeah, that distortion and inability to fully appreciate another person's values and opinions can cause a ton of damage in any relationship. I can't even imagine in a sibling relationship like the Walls family. I think it's important to recognize in all of these situations, we're talking about relationships that we care deeply about and we want to continue. So there are always going to be edge cases where maybe the relationship isn't healthy, but in relationships that are healthy that you care about the other person, it's important to bring that level of appreciation, the openness to the criticism.

53:54And then also a big skill set is learning how to apologize to really solve conflict in your relationship. And oftentimes some of these criticisms are being levied at us because there is a wrong that happened and we need to apologize. And you break down a four-part apology that I think is really powerful for those who are struggling in relationships where a simple I'm sorry or I'll do better next time isn't cutting it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so if somebody says, Krista told me that she was cold on the way to school today, you didn't give her a coat. That's really not cool. And Krista's really upset.

54:30was really a guy called, and you know how subject she is to a cold. And so a defensive response might be something like, oh, thanks. I'm really happy you once again saw the mistakes I made. Maybe someday you could point out something that I do right, as if you'd even bother to notice. That would be like the opposite of the four-part apology. And the four-part apology would look much more like something like a thank you in a tone of voice that shows sincerity. And then agreement that I really don't, I certainly don't want Krista to get a cold. What I'll do differently next time is make sure that I check the weather and maybe do a little bit of margin for error and give Krista something else to take with her in case it does get colder.

55:17And then fourth is the tone of voice. You can say all those words in a tone of voice that has sarcasm attached to it. and they're all lost. But the tone of voice is crucial in addition to the acknowledgement of the issue and then the willingness to do it differently the next time. Yeah, I think it's important to recognize that in a lot of these situations, apology is not enough, a recognition of not only where the error was, but how we can improve next time, how important it is to get this right, to go along with that apology in a tone that actually welcomes the other person's perspective in instead of putting up a wall or withdrawing.

55:54which I've certainly struggled with in my own relationship. And as we go through the book and we go through this conversation, I know that there are some in our audience who feel completely time-starved, completely overwhelmed with work and familial obligations and things going on outside of their relationship. What advice do you have for those couples who are struggling to find the time in their life to do some of these important things that we've just covered in this episode to mend and strengthen their relationships? So what I find is once somebody does this, then they see, my God, how much time I have saved.

56:31So much of the time when I'm walking on eggshells about a concern, half of my psyche is thinking about that. How to say that? When to say that? On some level, I know that every cell in my body is being sort of poisoned. that I will live less long because of the stress and that I will do the compensatory behavior like drinking or maybe doing some drugs or playing a video game or watching something useless on TV just to relax and undo my body. If I add up all that time and add up the stress that it takes in my body, that's a lot more time than the couple of hours a week that I'm being asked to first appreciate my partner, be appreciated by my partner and listen to one concern that they have.

57:22And knowing how to do the other part of what's talked about in Rolemate to Soulmate, create a conflict-free zone and then sustain that free zone for the entire week leaves me with so much more internal relaxation and peace of mind. And knowing that the one concern I might have, I have ways of working with that concern, journaling with it, doing things that will allow me to process it. And if it survives as a concern at the end of the week, that my wife or my husband or my partner will be there to be able to hear me, even if I mistakenly frame it, even if I exaggerate it, even if I get upset in the process of telling it.

58:02What a joy that is to know that. What a source of internal peace that is. I couldn't agree more. And I think having that weekly practice is just so powerful for your relationship, the relationships that really matter in our lives. Thank you so much for joining us again. And I appreciate this book. We know the last time you were here, we talked about the boy crisis and how important it is to have healthy romantic partnership relationships and healthy families. So we really appreciate the work that you're doing. Where can our audience find out more about the book and the online course to help them in their relationships?

58:32The online course is so important that I'm basically practically giving it away when somebody buys the Rolemate to Soulmate book. And fortunately, Amazon right now has a 30 % discount on the Rolemate to Soulmate book. So that's probably the easiest way to get it. If you have a bit more money, please go to your local bookstore and support it. That's very important as well. And then don't just read Rolemate to Soulmate as a book. Really practice with your partner, your loved one, the online video course. If you go through that course with your partner and it doesn't work for you, my email is in the book with the guarantee that I'll give you full money back.

59:10I don't want anybody to ever feel that anything that they bought from me is not worthwhile. Well, thank you again for stopping by. We really appreciate it. It's been really wonderful talking to you. I can feel the kindness in every vibration in your body and your wife is a very lucky woman. Thank you. I appreciate it.

59:36And thank you for joining us for another amazing episode of the Art of Charm podcast. And now here's the time where we like to showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Ron. Hi, this is Ron Palermo, and I'm a corporate lawyer. Taking the X Factor Accelerator is one of the best decisions I have ever made. If you want to consistently show up as a high-value person, someone who makes a great first impression, effortlessly makes new friends and connections, and enjoys deep and authentic relationships, X Factor Accelerator will get you there. The AOC team is passionate about what they do and are totally committed to your success.

1:00:15And most importantly, they know how to get the results you want. My only regret is not taking the program sooner. If you are serious about showing up as the best version of yourself, I urge you to sign up for the X Factor Accelerator. You will be so glad you did. Thank you, Ron. It was a pleasure working with you, too, and good luck to all your future endeavors. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, please head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It means the world to us, and it helps others find the show. If you've listened this far, you're probably somebody who understands the value of building meaningful connections and expanding your network.

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1:02:11you you were the bad boy you threw your love away like you was just a toy and you sold the world you sold the tragedy cause you had your taste of black only yesterday yeah but I remember you oh yeah I'll miss you. You're the best. I'll miss you.