Stress Isn’t the Enemy: The Science of Peak Leadership Performance | Sebastien Page

30:00So when you ask a group of people who don't have any fundamental understandings in philosophy out of those four questions, what do you want? Well, of course, they're going to ask for fame. Of course, they're going to ask for power because that is there in the moment where wisdom, as you were mentioning, begins to stretch the timeline of what becomes really important to you as a human being and what you are going to leave for generations to come. Well, I know one of the principles in your book is choosing role models wisely. And part of our pursuit of wisdom through the show, and we felt fortunate in a lot of ways to meet some of those role models, is the downside of fame and power and wealth.

30:49That is not quite clear, especially to those in the audience yesterday, having not experienced what those role models that they have, choosing the wrong roles models, in fact, have had on influencing what their goal should be. And it's always one of those catch-22s where we have friends of the show and clients ask us like, oh, who is the most famous person you met? Or what do you feel about having that one person on your show? Or who do you look up to the most? and especially being immersed in LA as well, we see those downsides of the fame and the power and the chasing of wealth that many haven't experienced yet.

31:25Yet through wisdom, the pursuit of wisdom, we've had this great opportunity to have conversations with you and other fantastic guests over the years who've imparted on us the truths from their leadership roles, the truths and the principles in their lives that have helped guide them to success. So what is it about, I think, at a larger understanding of leadership that so much of what we think that we know about is just so flawed and misguided and it's bumper sticker and it's not based on the philosophy that Johnny was talking about and choosing the wrong role models that lead us astray? Yeah, you know, there are lots of counterintuitive conclusions in my book.

32:04And you talk about role models, have a bit of a fascination with billionaires, and I explore billionaires, what motivates them. I love what Johnny said about philosophy, though, to circle back for a second. forcing you to think long term. That's super important to me. And I do touch a little bit on stoicism in there. I actually have this ring on my finger that looks like a neural ring, but it's not. It's a memento mori ring, which is basically, remember, one day you're going to die. And that sounds negative, but it's actually very liberating and helps you think about the meaning of what you do.

32:45but you know when you when you think about meaning i also like what johnny said about people building something that would last for multiple generations and in europe where they wouldn't even see the final result you know there's a bit of a crisis of meaning too um this story i use in the book is the three brick layers. Are you guys familiar with the three brick layers? I see AJ's nodding yes. You know, there's a famous story about an architect. It's probably a made up story, but it's about meaning. The architect walks up to three brick layers and the first one looks a bit depressed and tired.

33:27And he asked the brick layer, what are you doing? And the brick layer goes, I'm laying bricks and I'm doing this to help feed my family. Now he walks up to the second brick layer and the second brick layer says, well, I'm building this wall here. And what really switches the story is when the architect walks up to the third brick layer who answers the question, what are you doing with, I'm super excited about what I'm doing and he's clearly energized, he goes, I'm building this awesome cathedral. And this story is important because all three of them have the same job. And in the sort of world of money management, for example, I could walk up to an analyst working on a spreadsheet and they might say, oh, I'm debugging that spreadsheet.

34:23Now, another analyst might say, oh, I'm building investment strategies to beat the market. Now, the third one with a greater sense of meaning might say, I'm looking for ways to beat the market, to make money for my clients so they can have a more comfortable retirement. Right. Three levels of meaning. And so that's very powerful. And it's also lacking. We talked about how flow is kind of lacking and not managed well in business. I also think that meaning we talk a lot about it. There's all popular business books around it. But meaning is also lacking in terms of how you practically do this in your business, how you encourage a sense of meaning.

35:03For the students, I won't go over it today, but for the students in finance yesterday, I just talked a lot about the meaning of what we do in money management. And I think it was important for them to hear it. But guys, I want to pause here because we're all saying the right things, right? Wisdom, meaning, think long term, relationships are important. At the same time, I'm conscious we might sound as if we're saying pursuing money, fame, power is really bad and is going to make you unhappy. I don't think that's true either. I think being ambitious and having measurable goals around money or whatnot, if you have balance in your life and perspective, And to Johnny's point, if you think philosophically about things, you're just going to enjoy the game much better.

35:57So it's more like, to use a statistical term, it's more like there's not as much correlation, association between those traditional goals and the more meaningful goals and happiness, right? So the traditional goals might not be as strongly linked to happiness, but they're not linked to unhappiness generally per se. They can be. So I just want to add sort of that nuance and caveat because, you know, I just I think there's nuance in a lot of these things in psychology. There's always sort of a couple sides to it that you have to think about. Want to go beyond just reading about networking strategies?

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40:01encryption. It's time for WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Learn more at whatsapp.com. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the key parts of the book for us is the core values piece to those goals. And when many of our clients sign up to work with us in our coaching programs, they have goals in mind. They want to coach, they want to achieve those goals faster, but oftentimes those goals are either shared by someone else saying you should reach this amount of money or you need to be a millionaire or you need to get this level in your career. And they haven't unpacked, well, what is the deeper meaning behind that goal for me?

40:40And what are the core values behind pursuing those goals that I can engage with every single day, whether or not I succeed in reaching the goal? So we're all for aiming high and creating goals for yourself that allow you to achieve. But have you asked yourself the deeper questions around, well, why is this goal important to me? Is it because of someone else? Is it because of impressing someone else or because someone else told you that should be your goal? Or is it truly aligned with your core value, right? Maybe your core value is freedom. And to reach that goal of being a millionaire and allow your parents to retire sooner so you could travel more.

41:17Well, that's a goal that aligns with your core value that you're going to get up every day fired up to achieve, even if it takes you a little longer than you had set out for. But if your goal is to be a millionaire because someone on social media is also a millionaire and it looks like their life is cool and it looks like they got cool gadgets and toys. Well, it's going to be pretty empty once you actually hit that number. And we've talked to tons of millionaires who've then said, well, I got to reach 100 million and I got to reach a billion in order for me to be happy because they've lost that sense of what is the meaning behind the goal.

41:48Yeah. And I know that's a principle in the book. So I'd love for you to unpack your own journey around that, because coming from wealth management background, I think many of our listeners assume, well, you just have big numbers as your goals. And you know what, AJ, I do. And I've had for most of my career, you know, I've wanted to get promoted. I've wanted to make more money. But if you bring perspective, value, and balance your life, and remember how important positive relationships are. What's fascinating about billionaires, when you read their biographies, almost all of them, if not all of them, are actually horrible at relationships.

42:32I think that's kind of interesting in itself when you pause and think about it. The problem, AJ, is and why what we're talking about is so important, meaning, long-term perspective, philosophy, wisdom, positive psychology, all these things, why they're so important to bring into your life and your leadership style is the risk, especially in business leadership, of goal-induced blindness. So goal-induced blindness occurs when you have a measurable goal, which is the most powerful kind of goal, and you lose perspective of everything else that's not reaching the goal. So the thought experiment to illustrate goal-induced blindness I want to do with you is about Mount Everest and the deaths of Mount Everest, because that's the typical example that academic psychologists use to illustrate goal-induced blindness.

43:30People die trying to reach the summit of Everest. So AJ, Johnny, I think I know the answers, but just for our audience to pause and think about this. And I asked the question to a thousand students yesterday. I was shocked by the amount of votes that came out of this. So here's the question. I give you a bowl of 100 gummy bears. Four of them have poison in them and they're going to kill you. And I ask you, what would it take for you to take one gummy bear and eat it? So you have four out of 100 that are going to kill you. So I think I know your answer. If I offer you a million dollars would you do it just for the record i'm guessing it's no no a billion dollars i'm guessing it's no too because you're you're you're clearly have this figured out right but yesterday in the room i asked people be honest and i got a tremendous amount of like i got it like maybe 15 of the hands just that one million dollars and uh so there's a million dollar of goal-induced blindness here.

44:41But the reason why I use that example is if you want to reach the summit of Everest, you have 4 % chance of dying in the process. I don't understand why people climb Everest. And that is, to me, an illustration of goal-induced blindness. A lot of those deaths are not preventable. They're kind of random. And it's morbid, but if you want to reach the summit, you basically walk over dead bodies to get there. And so goal-induced blindness occurs like this, where you just look at something, you want to achieve it, and you're going to do everything. You're going to sacrifice relationships. You're going to sacrifice your health.

45:20Early in my career, I was not healthy because I was working around the clock, globally traveling. And your sense of ethics, too. A lot of companies have these goals, like Wells Fargo, Number of accounts opened and they started opening dummy accounts. You know, Volkswagen emissions target in the purity of the emissions. They started fudging the emissions stats. Just go. Yeah. Stay a mile away from the ethical gray zone and realize that this go and do blindness. Really, it occurs to the best of us. I think a challenge for many, especially early in their career when they're recognizing, OK, you know, fame or wealth is tied in large part to their success goals for themselves for success, struggle with this idea of discovering their core values.

46:13And when we put a list of core values in front of people, they often want all 30 of their on the list to be their core value. So talk a little bit about yourself as a leader and how you approached defining your own core values, because I know that's a challenge for so many in our audience when we talk about core values. You know, having the ability to understand people and work to help people in their development is a huge part of becoming a senior level leader. And it's kind of the number one core value for a leader is developing others. and one way to think about it is the real powerful leaders are those that make others around them more powerful.

47:05Now, almost all leaders in an organization, they're going to go through this process where they start off as a really strong individual contributor. And this happens in sports and money management, for example. You're a high producer. So you get promoted into managing a team. And then you might keep going up the ladder and managing larger and larger organizations. As you move into a leadership role, and there's different kinds of leadership. You don't have to manage people. You're a leader in your family. You're a leader in your community. You're a leader in your church. As you go up, your core value, you have to realize that one of your core values, if not the core value is helping others develop, making other people successful.

47:54And so the most successful leaders almost have to kind of make themselves replaceable if they want to continue climbing the ladder and be more effective and increase their impact. That's a big one in leadership that we all go through and we have to develop over time. It's not about you. It's not about you. It's about the organization. It's about the people. It's about enabling others. others to perform at their best. And we see this in athletes a lot, especially later in their career, after they've amassed all of that experience at that sport, being able to put the pass in the right spot for the rookie to shine, being able to line up the team in the right formation for that winger to score the goal, whatever the case may be, the athletes who have built up all of this experience and become the real true leaders, they recognize that it's not about just their own athletic gift.

48:48It's about putting other people in the right spot to succeed, even if they're below average players. And you'll see this time and time again. Then they get that huge contract bringing up that below average player and they go on to another place where they're not with that experienced leader and they struggle. And so much of those parallels in sports and in leadership and business are there. And that's what one of the main reasons that we got so interested in sports psychology and had so many great guests on over the years talking about sports psychology, because it does really mirror those experiences in business.

49:23But I'd love to really transition to part three of the book, because one of the exercises that Johnny and I put all of our boot camp participants for. So these are the people that travel to work with us in person is through the big five personality test. Part of it is to get an understanding before we meet them of how we can adapt our coaching and personalize our coaching to be successful with them. But part of it's also to understand how they're going to work together with another group of individuals who are joining them for this program. And it's been really interesting over the years to sort of compare what the big five scores are and sort of see what the patterns are for behaviors in our own clients.

50:02And we're huge fans of it. But for those who aren't maybe familiar with personality psychology, just talk a little bit about how you came upon it and how it's impacted your career. And we can start to dig into those five characteristics or personality traits. Well, first of all, I love that you're doing that in your business and your coaching. And I love that you're using the big five. There's a bunch of them. They're all pretty good. But the big five is the one that has the most research behind it. We're all familiar with the trait, the personality trait, extroversion. Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

50:38Now, those traits are not set in stone. They can change over time. They can even change based on the situation. And also, they're maybe about 40 % heritable, meaning genetic, if you will. So it's fluid around those traits. But they do help you develop empathy and understand people. Now, the business world has latched on to extroversion, introversion. And there's a really, really good book about this by Susan Cain about how introverts are somewhat underrated in the workplace and they can make wonderful leaders. But what I'm trying to do with the book is there are four other traits, and they're super important too.

51:24Openness to experience. Do you like to try new things or do you like a routine? Conscientiousness. Are you neat, organized, or can you sort of shoot from the hip and you're more creative? Neuroticism. Are you someone who tends to get anxious at things and anticipate things under uncertainty? Or are you like Neil Armstrong, which, you know, 75 heart rate while you're landing the moon mission? And so agreeableness is also an interesting one to complete the big five. Are you someone who's a people pleaser and try to just get along with people? Or do you have more of a sort of intellectual mindset where you like to debate and confront ideas?

52:11Right. So in the book, I do this thing where I actually map celebrities to both sides of each of these traits. As I said, it's a lot of fun because it helps you understand people. So that's the jits of the big picture of personality psychology and this model with the five traits. It's super fun to discuss this with people over dinner and try to guess what they are and what they do. But it's also a real practical way to put teams together. You want to balance personality traits as a rule of thumb within a team if you want top performance. And just as a leader, understanding how people are wired, for me, it just helped me build more empathy with how people react in certain situations.

52:57So I'm super, super happy to hear that you use this in your practice.

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53:51Bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. These things depend contextually as well. So when you're organizing these groups of people, you can look at those tests as deeply as you like, and you will come up with a hypothesis of what you think a good team will look like. But you don't understand the epigenetics in these people, the things that turn off and on when they're around other traits.

54:36And so, sure, put some thought into it. See if you can balance it out. But there's going to be a trial period to see what happens. And you're not going to know how people are going to respond contextually until they're in those situations. So it's also something to have in mind. So it's like, you can put all the work in that you want. You could feel great about it, but have an understanding of, let's give this about a month. Let's give this six months and see what the result is. If the production and the result is desirable, hey, fantastic. But let's make sure that things aren't going haywire and things are breaking down because until they're in the mix, it's all guesswork.

55:29I love this idea of trial and error because those personality traits do change based on situations. And it's not set in stone. These are loose descriptions of how people tend to interpret the world and behave, but it's not an exact science. So, Johnny, I love your idea of saying, OK, do it. See how people react. See how they behave. See who comes out as an extrovert. And you might be surprised. Like your person that is generally an introvert in a certain setting, they might become the extrovert of the situation because maybe they know more or they feel good that day. So there's a lot of, I agree with you, trial and error.

56:11But AJ, Johnny, are you both extroverts or introverts? I'm going to say I've done the test. It's also in my book. When you get to the third part, you'll see my own scores. And I'm mostly an introvert. Where are you guys? Yeah, I'm mostly an introvert and we've kind of laughed a little bit about where Johnny is on that scale towards the middle or more introverted. What are your thoughts today, Johnny? I mean, again, it's contextual, isn't it? You know, depending on the, yeah, it's all contextual. So there's situations where I'm going to be incredibly extroverted. I'm going to, I'm going to be in flow state and I'm going to enjoy myself chatting up the room and having the spotlight on myself.

56:59And then there's going to be other moments and other situations where, Hey, I just want to, I'm observing. I'm getting all the notes that I can. I'm learning a lot in this situation. And and the result of that is advantageous for me. So, again, it comes down contextually. And, you know, you might be somewhere in the middle, too. You might not just have a strong loading on the personality trait. So how about on conscientiousness? So I know I score high on conscientiousness. I tend to be organized. I tend to be on time. Um, what about you guys, Johnny, AJ? I score lower on conscientiousness for sure.

57:41Yeah. As, as I gotten older, I higher and higher and higher, the more routine based, uh, the better I am. Um, I've certainly, I've always, and, and AJ is pretty well, I probably definitely more timely, but that's just been ingrained in me from my dad. But yeah, I would guess high on conscientiousness. I think that's one you can develop. I talk about it in the book, but the routines, Yanni, are super important. Yeah, that wasn't there earlier in my life. Yeah. And exactly. You can develop conscientiousness and it's kind of a super trait. If you're extremely conscientious, like too much, you might fall into perfectionism or difficulty delegating tasks because you just want to do it yourself perfectly.

58:29Yeah. Difficulty delegating. That's I can definitely on me. But but the other one, what was the other one that you mentioned? Perfectionism. Now, I don't I don't have that issue. I will I will turn stuff in just to get feedbacks to see how I can do it better. I don't need to have it perfect. But, you know, it's interesting that you can just develop develop some of those traits and conscientiousness. The routines help a lot. What about openness to experience? Like if you're high in openness to experience, you want to try new things, you want to go skydiving, you want to try maybe illicit substances, you want to listen to different music, you're just openness to new experience.

59:10High or low or average? I think we're both high in openness. I would say high in openness earlier in my life, incredibly closed later in life. Interesting. And agreeableness, I'm going to try to guess here for both of you. So agreeableness, people pleaser versus you like to debate and give the other side. I'm going to say AJ high, Johnny low. And by the way, I'm low. I thought it was, everybody thinks they're high in agreeableness and you start taking the test and you think about it. It turns out I'm low. I disagreed with the test result that I'm disagreeable. That's my guess. Shocking. Where do you self-report?

59:54Yeah, spot on for me. Yeah, I agree. And it's only gotten lower as the years go on. And then the last one is neuroticism. So, you know, you tend to get nervous, generally speaking. By the way, celebrities tend to score self-disclose as very high in neuroticism. They tend to be anxious. and I'm not talking about clinical anxiety here. You know, we're talking about positive sports and personality psychology. We're not touching any of the clinical issues, which is a whole separate thing, but just the personality trait of neuroticism, high, low, medium, AJ, Johnny? Low, low. I'm high. And I think that's part of how I perform, right?

1:00:39I have to get a little bit anxious about things and then it just motivates me. It motivates me to prepare. I need a little bit of adrenaline. Yeah. And I mean, it makes sense looking at celebrities, right? They have to embody a completely different person in order to sell the role. So it requires a level of anxiety around understanding yourself and then immersing yourself in others to try to nail those performances. You look at the best performances of the year and how those characters can take on historical figures and these movie characters that we all look up to and admire. I think it's fun for our listeners, and we'll link up the tests that we give our boot camp participants to just go through it.

1:01:20One, for that self-awareness that we talked about. But two, it's actually really powerful, as we've discovered, around conflict resolution. When you start to actually understand yourself better and you start to look at other people and what they might score in some of these areas, you might realize, oh, OK, well, now I understand why we're in conflict. I stepped on their agreeableness. or wow, they're highly neurotic and I probably shouldn't have been doing what I was doing. You start to really understand how people interact. So it's not just about yourself and your own behaviors, but it really raises that awareness as a leader in others.

1:01:54And it's one of the reasons that we've enjoyed it, looking at our students before they arrive and what their scores are and then mapping to some behaviors and coaching that they're going to experience working with us going through the boot camp. 100 % AJ. And that's why I built this into the book. Look, it will make you a better leader. It will help you build empathy once you begin to understand personality traits. And again, to Johnny's caveat, don't over engineer or overthink it because they're fluid. But once you understand generally how people are wired, there's someone who might always disagree with you.

1:02:34It's got nothing to do with you. It's just how they process information. Right. So I'm completely on board with the fact that you've built this in your practice. I think it's awesome. Well, now I'm going to ask you the hardest question. What's your favorite principle from the book of all your children in the various principles you outlined in the book? So there are 18 of them. By the way, you still haven't told me whether you rank sport positive or personality psychology the highest. You haven't. You've declined to pick one. You know, to me, I think the most important goes back to goals and it goes back to positive psychology.

1:03:24And if we circle back to what we talked about at the beginning is is the principle about relationships. because so much of our ability to perform, to lead, to thrive, to be happy in life comes down to quality relationships. And I go into this at length in the book, but that's not about unicorn and rainbows and agreeing on everything all the time. Money management teams that always seek consensus and don't debate ideas perform much poorly than those that actually kick the ideas around. But it's about, it's about like the quality of the relationships is sometimes is disagreeing, but with a tremendous amount of trust and mutual respect.

1:04:12So, yeah, that was a tough one. You know, I had to pause a little bit, but I would say it comes down to the principle on relationships as part of the positive psychology part. But I love all of them. You know, I talk about social comparison. There's a, you know, we talk about motivation. We didn't touch on this today. And I know we're almost out of time. But social comparison is fascinating, too, as a source of motivation. And we kind of flirted with this when we talked about billionaires comparing each other. Right. If you have$600 million,$700 million, hey, why do you need more money? A lot of it seems to be driven by just social comparison.

1:04:51I want more than the next person. Yeah. So there's a lot to uncover there. But I have this story where I was sitting at dinner with a pretentious PhD, and they shall remain nameless, and a Harvard MBA. And they start talking, and there's such a comparison going on. And the Harvard MBA asked the PhD, where did you study? And he goes, oh, you know, I had a PhD in economics from Princeton. What did you do? I have an MBA from Harvard. And the PhD responded, oh, that's awesome. You went to PowerPoint school. So that was an occasion where I thought, OK, I'm sitting down with people who are very much social comparison driven.

1:05:40By the way, 10 % of your thoughts, statistically based on exactly how the research was done, every day involves social comparison. That's like every 10 minutes, You might be spending one minute thinking about, oh, am I stronger, faster, richer than this other person? It's a kind of part of the human condition. It is. And it can be harnessed for good. I think a large part of what we're talking about here, and even in the billionaire category, is driving us to space. So you look at innovation and you look at social comparison and they're often woven together. You look at automobiles and the comparison between automakers and how they've driven innovation.

1:06:23Well, that comparison is in large part about beating one other person or beating one other company and the person at the helm of that other company. And I know we've on the show here talked a lot of the negativity that goes along with social comparison, especially with complete strangers and the power of social media now to compare across billions of people versus just your neighbors or your peers in school. But it does have some some positive upsides. And I think leaders should understand how to harness social comparison for success. Absolutely. And on social media, it's kind of like putting social comparison through your veins directly.

1:07:02It's kind of over the top and it will make you neurotic, constantly compare yourself to others. But there are ways to harness it. I completely agree with you, AJ, to make it work as a positive force. I talk about running as an intrinsic motivation, right? You get up, it's dark outside, you go running. No one's forcing you to do it. You're intrinsically motivated because it's going to make you feel better. But, you know, trying to impress people at the beach with a low heartbeat and skinny arms, right? But at the same time, so runners have a fair amount of intrinsic motivation. But at the same time, I mean, as a runner, I've had my best runs, my fastest runs during a race.

1:07:45And so in business, for example, right now we're looking at artificial intelligence. I'm thinking about asking my teams, find efficiencies through artificial intelligence over the next three months, and I'm going to declare three winners who find the most efficiencies. Gamify it. Play the social comparison a little bit. Make it exciting, a little bit competitive. Nothing wrong with that. Thank you so much for stopping by and having this incredible conversation with us around leadership. Where can our audience find out more about the book? The book is for sale everywhere. If you want to go buy it somewhere, go buy it on Amazon.

1:08:21I'm not sure my publisher wants me to say that, but that's the easiest. And the best way to find me, I'm not super present on social media, but my biggest channel is, as you might expect, from a business person on LinkedIn. Thank you so much for stopping by. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.

1:08:47thank you for listening to another episode of the art of charm podcast and now i'd like to showcase one of our x-factor accelerator members take it away mike my name is mike and i'm a real estate developer in los angeles my experience with the art of charm x-factor accelerator program has been phenomenal. And the most valuable lessons I've learned is how to carry a conversation better and identify emotional bits. Using these techniques now, I'm more comfortable in any social situations than I was ever before. By putting into practice everything I learned in this program has helped me improve my personal and professional relationships.

1:09:23I highly recommend this program to anyone that is struggling socially or in relationships in general because I have greatly improved. Thank you, Mike. Mike, it was a pleasure and an honor working with you too. And good luck to you and all of your future endeavors. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It means the world to us and helps others find the show. Before we head out, a huge thank you to our producers, Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. Until next week, go out there and make it epic. Yeah, I remember you You were the bad boy You threw your love away Like you was just a toy And you sold the world You're a song of a tragedy Cause you had your taste All black on the yesterday Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I know you You're my best ever Next up is a little song from CarMax about selling a car your way.

1:10:42You wanna sell those wheels You wanna get a CarMax instant offer So fast Wanna take a sec to think about it Or like a month? Wanna keep tabs on that instant offer With OfferWatch

1:11:04So, want to drive? CarMax. Pickup not available everywhere. Restrictions and fee may apply.