In short
The career and personal costs of self-silencing, and how leaders and workplaces create “cultures of silence” that punish questions, feedback, and visibility.
Guest background
Elaine Lynn Hering is a former Harvard Law lecturer and author of Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully. She previously taught negotiation and difficult-conversation tools from the Harvard Negotiation Project.
Key claims
“Talking” isn’t the same as having “voice.” Silence often comes from learned safety (fawn/freeze) and from environments where senior leaders dominate, questions trigger defensiveness/retaliation, or speaking up feels too costly. Leaders may mislabel quiet people as unprofessional instead of changing norms, expectations, and inclusion. Quiet can be nonverbal, disengaged, or asynchronous (not replying in email/Slack). Agency matters: silence can be strategic or oppressive.
Notable examples
Using “From where I sit…” to share perspective and invite others (“What does it look like from where you sit?”). Low-risk self-advocacy like correcting an order at a coffee shop. “Toilet Gate” is her “connect the dots” example with her husband. Four-step voice process: know your why, connect the dots, make your ask clear, embrace resistance.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Workplace Silence
0:15 to 0:56
Discussion on how workplace cultures can suppress voices and the implications.
“Shopify is behind millions of businesses and 10 % of all e-commerce in the U.S.”
Understanding Workplace Silence
1:34 to 2:20
Discussion on how workplace cultures can suppress voices and the implications.
“They need to do some professional development.”
The Impact of Silence on Careers
3:21 to 4:50
Elaine discusses her journey and the detrimental effects of silence in professional settings.
“Now, my own background is teaching skills for how to negotiate, have difficult conversations, tools and frameworks out of the Harvard Negotiation Project.”
Breaking Out of the Quiet Box
4:59 to 6:28
Exploration of how individuals can break free from the labels of being 'quiet' and own their unique perspectives.
“It's so hard for many of us to break out of.”
Navigating Hybrid Work Environments
6:39 to 7:39
Discussion on the challenges of speaking up in hybrid work settings and strategies to be heard.
“And now, especially in situations where much of our work life is hybrid.”
Creating a Culture of Voice
7:41 to 10:18
Elaine emphasizes the importance of leaders fostering an environment where all voices are heard.
“We don't want to be one of those people, right?”
Creating a Culture of Voice
14:03 to 14:36
Elaine emphasizes the importance of leaders fostering an environment where all voices are heard.
“posted directly on Indeed are 95 % more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs.”
Understanding Quietness in Teams
14:54 to 17:47
Exploring the reasons why team members may remain quiet and how leaders can foster a more communicative environment.
“then either a you made a mistake in choosing your team or you're not developing your team the way you should be.”
The Perception of Silence
17:48 to 19:46
Discussion on how silence can be misinterpreted in professional settings and its implications for personal identity.
“We see it on video all the time where our clients will shy away from even showcasing any emotion nonverbally in the interaction.”
The Dangers of Self-Silencing
19:47 to 24:09
Examining the negative effects of self-silencing in relationships and careers and the importance of expressing needs.
“And if I just get, I can't see you as analytical anymore.”
Show all 26 chapters
Articulating Needs and Agency
24:10 to 28:00
The significance of recognizing and articulating personal needs and how it can enhance relationships and work dynamics.
“That's true of, you know, outperforming, but I'm at this role, but it's safe.”
Articulating Needs for Better Collaboration
28:00 to 28:41
Learn how expressing your needs can strengthen teamwork and relationships.
“But again, that that feeling of comfort of like, oh, I'm not infringing on anyone else.”
Articulating Needs for Better Collaboration
28:42 to 29:02
Learn how expressing your needs can strengthen teamwork and relationships.
“With Red Bull Summer All Day Play, you choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best.”
Navigating Emotional Responses in Conversations
29:39 to 31:28
Understand the biological responses that complicate difficult conversations.
“But when we are flooded with that tension and pressure and that biological response to this discomfort that we've been avoiding and been conditioned to avoid, it can be really challenging in those moments.”
Low-Risk Experiments to Speak Up
31:29 to 32:42
Explore strategies to practice self-advocacy in low-stakes situations.
“mocha that I don't like, that has full fat milk, that I go back and say, actually, I ordered tea, or I ordered oat milk.”
Understanding Intentions in Conflict
32:43 to 34:52
Learn how to clarify intentions to reduce conflict in conversations.
“And sometimes those can come out of nowhere where we haven't had the chance to practice the ordering tea, resetting what the order was and these lower stakes things.”
Creating a Supportive Communication Environment
34:53 to 37:12
Discover how to foster an environment for open dialogue and growth.
“Well, what I like in that example is you're clearly stating your intention, right?”
Competing in a Scarcity Mindset vs. Abundance Mindset
37:13 to 41:28
Shift from a scarcity to an abundance mindset in career advancement.
“If you choose to stay silent and not reconnect or continue the conversation, you are deciding that I'm not even going to allow for the opportunity for repair.”
The Growth from Taking Risks
42:34 to 43:45
Discussing the importance of taking risks for personal growth in careers.
“to look at another department within the organization.”
Baggage and New Opportunities
43:46 to 44:56
Exploring how leaving an organization can create new opportunities for growth.
“And what we fail to factor in when we're just focused on the VP role is it is actually easier to start a new organization without the same baggage.”
Analyzing Costs of Silence
44:57 to 47:27
A detailed analysis of the costs of staying silent versus speaking up.
“Let's do that calculation for our analytical listeners.”
The Dangers of Low Maintenance Attitudes
47:28 to 49:24
Discussing the hidden costs of being ‘low maintenance’ in work environments.
“And now the costs are the stress you carry at home, the extra work you're doing for other people, the fact that you feel like your ideas are being sold.”
Intentional Career Choices
49:25 to 50:52
The importance of being intentional about career decisions to avoid future regret.
“And how much of yourself have you sacrificed along the way not paying attention to those internal signals?”
Four Steps to Use Your Voice
50:53 to 53:08
Presenting a four-step process for effectively using your voice in the workplace.
“you've encouraged many of our audience members to finally speak up.”
Connecting the Dots
53:09 to 56:00
Exploring the importance of connection and community in overcoming professional challenges.
“And we see this in our coaching clients, the sense of relief after they've joined the program.”
The Importance of Finding Your Voice
56:00 to 1:02:59
Discover the significance of using your voice in professional settings and how it impacts relationships and processes.
“And so you're not just doing something good for your co-workers, you're also doing something good probably for your friends and family or whoever loves you the most.”
Transcript
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1:29Supplies Last ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college pc. It's way easier to just say, oh, they're the quiet one. They need to do some professional development. Then maybe we can promote them or hear them or respect them versus I as a leader or just as a human being in this world might have something to do with whether or not they feel safe or think it's worthwhile to actually show up. If you're newer to a team, you're usually looking around saying, how do things work around here. And if we only see the CEO only see the senior leader speaking, and we see that when other people ask questions, the senior leaders get defensive, or there is retaliation, or it's too costly, we very naturally conclude, I guess we don't actually speak up around here because the costs are too high.
2:18What world am I creating? Are we creating a culture of voice or creating a culture of silence?
2:31Welcome back to the show. Today, we're talking to Elaine Lynn Herring, former Harvard Law lecturer and author of Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully. Elaine spent her career studying why capable people stay silent when it costs them and how leaders inadvertently silence their own teams. You'll learn why talking is not the same thing as having a voice, how silence undercuts your influence at work, and what creates environments where people speak up instead of shutting down. She shares, Elaine shares why you confuse silence with professionalism and what it actually costs you, how to use the three levers of your voice without raising your volume, the real reason well-intentioned leaders silence their best people, and what your body knows before you do.
3:16Welcome to the show, Elaine. It's great to have you. Thanks for having me. I'd love to hear the backstory to recognizing the impact of silence on your career and your personal life, because I think many in our audience identify as the quiet type and might not realize the impact that being silent has on our lives. I was that person, maybe like many of our listeners who throughout my life, people like just speak up more, like literally speak louder or speak more or speak more directly or essentially change something about yourself and then you will succeed. Now, my own background is teaching skills for how to negotiate, have difficult conversations, tools and frameworks out of the Harvard Negotiation Project.
4:03I did that for 10 years, noticed that it's useful, but some people still wouldn't negotiate, still wouldn't have the difficult conversation, still wouldn't give and receive feedback, no matter how good these Harvard frameworks were, which to me means we've got to ask the question, what's missing? And to me, what was missing was silence. The ways that we've learned to stay silent from our families of origin, the ways that the people around us, even well-intentioned leaders, don't leave room for us or require us to speak like they do in order to be heard. And so what we really need to solve for is silence because trying to fix yourself when nothing is fundamentally wrong, you're chasing the wrong problem and therefore you're never going to get to the right solution.
4:48So many of us I've probably heard that label early on in adult life or maybe early on in our career and just self-identified and then fit that box. And once you're in that box and you start to see people around you who are louder, more boisterous, talk over you, command the room with their voice, their volume, and then maybe not have the same credentials as you and get ahead, it becomes incredibly frustrating. But it's a box. It's so hard for many of us to break out of. Completely. And it is also a box that someone else has created, which means that you can tick all the boxes, but they move the goalpost versus starting from a place of agency, which is what are my skills?
5:32Do I believe the value that I have to offer? I start from the place that no one can be you. Literally, no one has had your same life experience, sits in your same home, has your same job title, has the exact same life experience. So no one can see the world that you do the way you do. So why would you try to be someone else? Why would you diminish the value of what you can bring when only you can be you? So instead of chasing what other, what seems to work for other people, can we fully own the skills, the perspective, the talents, the gifts that we have? And the world should not just be built for introverts, because if we're talking about just good thinking, Daniel Kahneman, social psychologist, Nobel Prize winner, we need both fast and slow thinking.
6:27And a lot of times the loud talkers, we're just doing the fast, intuitive, quick, impulsive thinking rather than the slow analytical. We need both. there's a lot of people listening to this that have heard in their career they need to speak up more they need to be more visible and if you've put yourself in that box or someone else has put yourself in that box it can feel inauthentic to then be asked to speak up more what does that truly mean and if someone else has made a point before you or they're thinking fast and you're thinking slow you feel like you're being repetitive you feel like you're lowering your status you have a lot of self-doubt and lack of confidence in those moments.
7:09And now, especially in situations where much of our work life is hybrid. So sometimes we're in the office where visibility can be easier. Sometimes we're just on Zoom meetings where visibility can be very difficult. And that speak up more is advice that we still readily hear, but it's so difficult to actually change about ourselves. Completely. I think this is where there's so much opportunity and diagnosing what's going on accurately gives us our best bet at actually making progress. So let me unpack this. Number one, those of us who are often told to speak up more, we're also conscious of not taking up too much space.
7:50We're really considerate. We don't want to be one of those people, right? The loud, annoying, always about themselves people. And so at times we overcompensate because we don't want to be like them. So let me start with us, which is if you have any of those thoughts, like, I want to create space for other people, I don't want to dominate, you are already ahead of the curve. You are very unlikely to be one of those people, by nature of the fact that you have self awareness that you might have that impact. And so the part that we can own is, am I actually offering my perspective? Right? Other people have a much better chance of hearing us if we actually say something and own it from our perspective.
8:34Otherwise, they're just assuming what we think. If you're literally looking for the words of how to offer your perspective and speak up in that meeting, but you're worried about the rebuttal, you're worried about the impact. My favorite go-to phrase is from where I sit. From where I sit, that timeline doesn't make sense. That's not to say that it doesn't make sense from where you sit, but let me fully own the perspective that I have from where I sit. And it also begs the question after I've stated my perspective, what do things look like from where you sit, AJ? And then we're in conversation rather than conflict.
9:06Okay. That's what I can own. The other part is what world are we creating? You mentioned hybrid and zoom and all of these other pieces. I actually think there's incredible opportunity there to leverage asynchronous communication. And this means the world that we're communicating in, we don't just reward the loudest or fastest voices, the people who dominate the meeting. But that voice isn't just what you say in a meeting, voice is how you move through the world. And voice is any thought, insight, or expertise. So the message I put in Slack or in email should hold as much weight as what's said in the meeting in three succinct bullet points with no umps.
9:51Can we as leaders value and recognize those contributions just as much? Because then we harness the talent of the introverts, of the post-processors, of people who might not have had a good night of sleep, right? It's an adjustment to the dominant norm that so many workplaces have created or valued, but actually allows us to get more out of each other. Well, what you touch on is, I think, an invisible factor that many of us don't realize, and that is the impact the environment has on our voice or our team members' voices. So often if we encounter someone who might be quiet in those moments, who might not be speaking up, we label them as the quiet person.
10:35It's their character. It might even be seen as their flaw. When in actuality, in many situations, the environment is playing a much bigger role than we even realize and why that person's not speaking up, why they're not included. And and then it begs the question, why are we so quick to judge the other person and not think about the bigger perspective of, hey, what is the environment doing that's causing people to shut down, people to be quiet, people to not speak their truth? And I'll offer a diagnosis about that. You know, you ask the question, why are we so quick to point at them and not at us or the environment?
11:10Because it's easier. It's way easier to say, oh, they're the quiet one. they need to do some professional development, then maybe we can promote them or hear them or respect them. Versus I as a leader or just as a human being in this world might have something to do with whether or not they feel safe or think it's worthwhile to actually show up. And so whether you are a leader with a fancy job title or not, it is really that consciousness of the environment around me, particularly if there are more junior people or newer people to the team, right? If you're newer to a team, you're usually looking around saying, how do things work around here?
11:50And if we only see the CEO, only see the senior leader speaking, and we see that when other people ask questions, the senior leaders get defensive, or there is retaliation, or it's too costly, we very naturally conclude, oh, I guess we don't actually do that. I guess we don't actually speak up around here because the costs are too high. So every time there is a what world am I creating? Are we creating a culture of voice or creating a culture of silence? And those norms are co-created by every decision that we make. People hear Mint Mobile is$15 a month and they all ask the same thing. What's the catch?
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14:36Just go to Indeed.com slash charm right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. indeed.com slash charm terms and conditions apply need to hire this is a job for indeed sponsor jobs if you are the creator then if you have people who are not voicing their opinions then either a you made a mistake in choosing your team or you're not developing your team the way you should be. And so the quiet person has to decide who it is they want to be, because we deal with a lot of quiet folks and our clients, but they come to us saying, I was told that I need to speak up and I want to speak up.
15:28Okay, well, then you have to go through the process of taking those steps to do that. Whereas the team leader creating that space, what kind of space do you want? And have you picked the right people to create that space? And if you don't have those people, either you need to replace them or you need to train them to be the team players that you want to create the space that you want. Yes. And the training them is both professional development in skill, but it is also creation of norms by the leader. Have you as a leader articulated your expectations for what your team will do? I've seen so many people who hire, it's like, well, you're at this level.
16:13Of course you would speak up. If not, you shouldn't be at this level versus have I articulated clearly, this is my expectation. I am paying you not just for what you produce, but for your perspective. and I've made that clear. And I've also said in the meeting when AJ is being quiet, Hey, AJ, what's on your mind right now? And I want to hear what you have to say, AJ, because I know you're closest to the data, right? Have I extended that to co-create this environment, including being really explicit about the assumptions I have? Because the biggest blind spot I see with leaders is I assume as a leader that if I would speak up, then you would speak up in the same situation.
16:52but we're actually different people and I've never made that explicit to you. It's such an easy gap to close. Recognizing that there's this environmental factor, have you explored, is this person really the quiet one or maybe are they better in writing and asynchronous? Maybe do you need to check in with them later in the week after they've processed the meaning to get their perspective? Maybe they don't like being pulled in the spotlight in that moment, or maybe they've been in conflict with a team member that you're not really aware of. And because of that ongoing conflict, they don't feel comfortable sharing.
17:25These are all factors that oftentimes get lost in us as leaders because we have a lot on our plate. We have a lot of deliverables that we need to be focused on. And it can be difficult in the moment to diagnose why is this person being quiet? What is their perspective? And how do I get it out of them with all these environmental factors going on? And what we found in our work with our clients is there's a lot of ways that we could be quiet. I think many of us have this misconception that quiet is just not using your voice, but you can be quiet with your nonverbal communication. We see it on video all the time where our clients will shy away from even showcasing any emotion nonverbally in the interaction.
18:03And maybe they grew up in an environment where that wasn't allowed. Maybe they've found in conflict that it's better to shut down, feel safer for them to shut down. But there are a lot of ways that we can be quiet, not responding to email, not engaging in the Slack thread. So I think we also have to broaden what we view quiet as because it's not just the words. I would agree with that and add, then what does the quiet mean? And we see this all the time on Zoom, which is, OK, you know, John's quiet. Is John thinking? Is John mad? Is John distracted? Is John thinking about the next meeting? we so often fill in the meaning without really knowing what it actually means and so i'm now telling a story about john as disconnected doesn't care about me when john's actually trying to get his tech to work usually the case okay i was like john this might be the moment where you actually get to speak for yourself yeah and and with that there's this connotation then So you've got this feedback.
19:09Hey, you need to speak up. You need to be more visible. You're doing great work. But in order to get to that next level, we need to see leadership out of you. So then it's, man, now silence is a weakness or it's being seen as disengagement and that's not how I am. So I have to like counter against it. And now I'm acting inauthentically. I'm speaking out of turn in ways that make the team uncomfortable, make me feel uncomfortable. And then I still don't get ahead. Completely. Which goes back to John's point of who do I want to be? What do I actually want? Because part of self silencing is also not paying attention to those very things.
19:43Who am I? And what life do I want? This is why you get people on the grind, just hustling, and you wake up and you've gotten the C-suite, the golden handcuffs, whatever it is, and you realize it's empty. that voice is also how how do we want to move through the world what life do i want how do i want to show up all right john you're smiling i'm curious what's going through your head there well you brought up an an incredible point and this is something that i i i try to talk to our our clients about which is if you are going to use the moniker or the the term uh i'm analytical that's why I'm so quiet or I'm introverted that's why I'm so shy analytical means you're you you you think a lot introverted means you're introspective you should have a lots of thoughts then when I ask you about what's going on what do you need uh how do you feel how was your day.
20:49And if I just get, I can't see you as analytical anymore. I can't see you as introverted anymore. You're now just empty. I think that's an argument for anyone who stays silent because many of us have also learned that silence is safety. If I don't push back on you, I don't give you anything to work with, then I assume that you think that I'm on your side. I'm just parsing this out. I don't necessarily agree with it. Right. Right. But if I don't give you anything to work with, then I'm safe. It is also the fawning moment of fight, flight, freeze or fawn of let me just think that let you think everything is peachy keen.
21:36The challenge with that is, as John, you're saying, if I don't give you anything to work with you're telling a different story about me that is not the right story nor the one i want you to tell we have a much better chance of owning our own narrative if we actually show up incredibly important and you mentioned the safety that happens about being quiet right because you get this cool little badge i am introverted i'm special i also say perceived safety because it's not real safety it's not real safety that's right i agree um and again you know both of those things both of those terms warrant a lot of thought right when i someone tells me they're introverted i'm like oh good let's open up this nut and find out what's inside and then when i don't get anything i'm like you're not introverted there's just nothing there.
22:34But John, you're calling them a nut. It's to crack the nut to find out what's inside. I gotcha. I gotcha. Also introverted means you get energy from one-on-one interactions rather than group interactions. Absolutely. Yeah. So we, we should be able to open up, but one thing that I want to touch on it with the safety piece is like, we don't recognize the slippery slope that that creates. And we see it all the time in our clients who ended up coming out of a terrible relationship, a breakup or a divorce where they stayed quiet when they knew they shouldn't have, when their values were being infringed on and they stayed in fawn mode because they didn't want to enter the conflict.
23:13They didn't want to have the disagreement or they're in their career and they're stuck at the same level, even though they know they're outperforming their peers. But they feel that it's safe. And part of that is also perfectionism. And I don't see or hear too many people talk about this, but we can be a perfectionist. And if we don't offer up anything that can be criticized, that can be seen as misspeaking or out of step, then we can stay in that safety that it feels like to us. Like, oh, they see me as perfect when in actuality it's a mirage. They could see you as someone to be taken advantage of.
23:49They could be stealing credit from you in your career. They could be leading you astray in your social and romantic relationships. What's safe or feels safe that perceived safety is actually often just comfort. And what we're comfortable with is not necessarily right, good, just or valuable. It's just what we're familiar. That's true in domestic violence situations. That's true of, you know, outperforming, but I'm at this role, but it's safe. For my favorite chapter of my book, Unlearning Silence is chapter three, which is when silence makes sense. There are real times when silence is self-preservation, survival, but the difference between silence that is additive and strategic or silence that is damaging and frankly oppressive is agency.
24:33Am I choosing it for a strategic purpose or does it feel like the only choice? Because that choice feels safer only because it's what I'm familiar with. And I don't yet know what it looks like if I'm getting underpaid, AJ, as you said, and not valued at this company. I don't know what's out there. I don't know what could be. I also and it could be beyond my wildest dreams. But this feels comfortable because it's known versus the unknown. oftentimes these traits of people pleasing and putting other people's needs before your own makes it difficult to even define what it is that you want in that relationship in that career setting in that environment of what matters to you and and this is something that i've personally struggled with in my own life and career is understanding that hey i have this tendency to focus so much on everyone's wants and needs that i'm not even in touch with my own and it can feel comforting and safe to be the person who makes everyone else around them feel good.
25:37But then it can be really harmful to your career, to the partner you end up with, to not show up fully and not be able to express those wants and needs. And it doesn't make you needy to express what those needs are. But to someone who is quiet, to someone who is a people pleaser, it can feel like, oh, now I'm being needy. I'm asking of others and I'm sharing the things that I need. And that makes me feel less than that lowers my status or value. I love that this is an intervention for former AJ. And you have arrived at this version, right? Having needs doesn't make you needy. It just makes you human.
26:15And having the awareness of what your needs are allows other increases the likelihood other people might actually be able to meet them because they can't read your mind. But if you can articulate it, self-silencing often shows up as deprioritizing our own needs out of altruism or supposed altruism for others. But if you're one of those people, and I spent several decades of my life like that, to me, that is how do we re-nurture our sense of self, our sense of voice, which is asking two simple questions. What do I think? As we're listening to this conversation, what do I think? Not what does my mother want me to think?
26:55What does my partner want me to think? Not what does my manager want me to think, but what do I, as an autonomous individual, think? What would I add? What's missing from the conversation? And second is exactly what you said, AJ. What do I need? Do I need a nap? Do I need a moment? Do I need someone to just shut up so that I can think? But that awareness of what I think and what I need is a starting place to then say, I matter too, because you do. It can be very difficult in the moment to recognize that you may feel comfortable in this safety of not expressing your needs, but you are entering into a covert contract with the other person that they now have to read your mind.
27:39They have to adjust their behavior and anticipate things that you haven't communicated. And then in the off chance where they don't do that, now resentment builds on both sides. Maybe it's your partner, maybe it's your friends, Maybe it's your coworkers who are starting to resent you because you don't actually say what you need to say in the meeting or you don't actually explain what it is that's missing for you to complete that task that's so important to the team. But again, that that feeling of comfort of like, oh, I'm not infringing on anyone else. I'm not asking anything of anyone else. That's really where the tension lies.
28:11And that mindset shift of my articulating my needs is not me being needy or self-centered. I am actually doing someone else's service. so that we can work better together, right? For those of us who are others oriented or have been conditioned that way, the, oh, I'm actually doing something that makes it easier for my partner to show up or for my teammate to show up. That is a more compelling reason to actually share what I need. Let's take all the mental hacks that we've got in order to get there. Ready to soundtrack your summer? With Red Bull Summer All Day Play, you choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best.
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29:28It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception, and it won't impact your future fertility. That's Freedom to Be. Use as directed. there's a point now where our audience is like shaking their head like intellectually a very analytical audience like yes i i hear what you guys are saying and i i really appreciate this but we touched on this fight or flight fawn this biological mechanism that floods us in these moments where after the fact or even before the fact preparing for these moments we can intellectualize and analyze what the other person's going to say and how we're going to respond to whatever that response is.
30:06But when we are flooded with that tension and pressure and that biological response to this discomfort that we've been avoiding and been conditioned to avoid, it can be really challenging in those moments. I'd offer two things. Number one is knowing that if you have entered into this covert contract that you mentioned of this is how the relationship works, then by nature of you doing something different, there's going to be rupture. It's not because you did something wrong. It's because you did something different. They have been used to being able to take advantage of you. They have been used to getting to pass off your work as their own and getting credit for it.
30:49So if you're going to change your input into the relational system, that's going to upset them. Not because you did something wrong, but because you're doing something different and you're doing something different for a good reason. So when that pushback or that rupture comes, don't be surprised by it. Don't take it as a message that you're doing something wrong. It's actually a message and feedback that you're doing something right because you're doing something different. That's one. The second is start with low risk experiments, right? I might not go to my boss right away and be like, this is everything that sucks about our team.
31:24My speaking up might be at the coffee shop when the barista gets my order wrong, instead of just drinking the peppermint mocha that I don't like, that has full fat milk, that I go back and say, actually, I ordered tea, or I ordered oat milk. And what that does, though, is gives those of us who do not inherently or in our life experience don't have the reps. It gives us reps to show us it is okay to advocate for yourself, to express your need, to push back, to speak up, it actually won't kill you. And that gets to conditioning or reconditioning the fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, that fawning and freezing aren't the only options.
32:04And it's not actually fighting. It's actually just articulating what's on our minds. So I would start with low risk experiments. And also when the pushback comes, because it does, take it as a sign that you're doing something differently, which means you're actually doing something right. Now, there are these moments where the stakes are incredibly high. We can go against the culture at work and speak up in a moment that can literally impact our career. We can speak up in a moment with a relationship that leads to breakup or divorce. And those moments have incredible impacts on ourselves, our vision, our identity, who we are and how we show up in the world.
32:45And sometimes those can come out of nowhere where we haven't had the chance to practice the ordering tea, resetting what the order was and these lower stakes things. And that physiological response can lead to the same pattern over and over again. So what do you say to those in our audience now who might be recognizing, I'm facing one of these crossroad moments where I've been taken advantage of, I've compromised my values, I'm actually not progressing in the way that I envision myself and what matters to my identity and my relationship or my job. What do you say to them in that moment? Because I know you went through a situation yourself personally that impacted you.
33:26Yeah. Number one, when you're going to use your voice, play to your own strengths. So if you communicate more easily by typing or writing than by talking, then write them a letter, type an email, whatever it is, rather than forcing yourself to speak in the mode that works best for them. The second is life is not a Hamilton musical, unfortunately or fortunately, which means there's the moments that feel like I got to shoot my shot. I only have this one shot. Rarely is it actually just that shot. If you were to come back, AJ, if I were to come back to you and say, hey, I was thinking about our meeting yesterday and here's what came up for me.
34:05And I care so much about our relationship or the team that I wanted to be sure to close the loop, I imagine you would be receptive to that. Because what it actually signals is you care. You actually are the thinker that you told John you were. And you were still thinking about it. And so that one shot then becomes less charged. Because I can usually, relationships are not one shot deals. It's what is the next thing that I do? And if I flub it up or I can't show up in the moment the way that I do, what's my next step? Because that next step can be repair for the relationship. It can be additive.
34:46It is a continuation of the relationship rather than I missed my one shot and the door closes. Well, what I like in that example is you're clearly stating your intention, right? Going into it saying, hey, I've been noodling on this since we met yesterday. I want to make sure that I got it correctly. I care a lot about this relationship. Like we are stating our intention for this conversation. This intention is not rupture. This intention is not let's end things here or I can't do this anymore. The intention is I'm trying to understand you. I'm trying to make my way through what I heard. And it gives the other side in that relief, number one, of like, OK, AJ is coming with great intention and to an opportunity to maybe reset.
35:30Like maybe you did mishear it or maybe you misunderstood what was going on and now they can clear the air before it even gets to the conflict. So you create that exit ramp in that preparation for the actual conversation by stating it in that manner. And that nuance, I think, is so helpful for those who are so trepidatious around conflict because we're expecting the impact. We're expecting crash. We're expecting the blow up. And these are simple things we can do that avoid the blow up completely, that soften and actually strengthen at the same time. So soften what the impact is for the other person, but strengthen what your message is that I'm seeking clarity.
36:11I'm seeking consensus. I'm actually looking to understand here, not I'm seeking conflict. I'm seeking to be in combat with you. Yeah, it does two things as well that I think are important to highlight. It goes back to what you're saying, AJ, about environment. If you want an environment where it is okay for people to think, okay for people to change their minds, because changing your mind is actually just part of growth, then coming back and continuing the conversation is actually creating the environment where we continue the conversation, right? Each of those actions co-creates the norm. And so you're actually not just doing it for you.
36:52You are creating the very environment that we said matters. And you could do that whether you're the manager, whether you're the more junior person, whether you're the higher power person, lower power person. But the second thought is you exponentially increase the likelihood for repair if you engage. If you choose to stay silent and not reconnect or continue the conversation, you are deciding that I'm not even going to allow for the opportunity for repair. I am precluding that possibility by not telling you what's going on and then getting mad at you and continue to be resentful that you can't read my mind.
37:35Right. And we've all been in this situation where there has been a peer, so not a boss or superior, but a peer who, you know, sometimes your career can feel like Hunger Games. Like we're all jockeying. There's a limited amount of roles. It's hierarchical. And you know that you're both gunning for the same role. And this peer can be the more vocal one, the more outgoing one, the more boisterous, and sometimes even the more commanding one. And in those moments now, where you break from that silence and you are trying to assert yourself, as you said, this person who's been winning that battle is not going to take kindly to it.
38:15They're not going to respond in the way that you would like. And those moments can be really challenging where we now feel like we're coming up against someone else who feels like a bully or feels like they're trying to outgun us still, even when we're just trying to find our voice and break out of that silence. So how do we manage those relationships where we're now actually angling for the same role? We're angling for a position that there's only one of. And we went from someone who was the low maintenance one they don't have to worry about to, no, we're jockeying now. And it's a new feeling for us.
38:48And they're probably not going to respond too warmly to it. Yeah, I'm gonna take a deep breath before I answer this one because it's personal. I'm also going to note that the hypothetical or the situation is not hypothetical. The dynamic and fact pattern you've articulated has an assumption of a scarcity mindset. There's only one VP role there. What would an abundance mindset or as my colleague, an author of Uncompete, Richie Gomothra likes to say, what does an abundance mindset look like? What does it look like not to compete with each other for that one spot, but compete with ourselves? and that to me is number one you're you're running your own race and by that i mean how do i going from a place of agency show up for the things that matter to me work to meet my needs goals hopes and dreams or in classic negotiations to meet my interests right and that may mean that i get picked instead of John.
39:52John may be pissed at me, but it's actually not my fault that others picked me. The reason I was keying in on the abundance versus scarcity is also that zero sum mindset presumes that the only thing valuable to us is that one single VP role, which in an organization may feel that way. But we're forgetting again, the multitude of other options that might be out there. Does it actually make sense for you to stay in this company? Have you outgrown it? Is there a different venture or a startup or a different role that actually would be a better fit? And when we're so fixated on that one role, we often forget the possibility of what could be, which is actually what makes us different as humans versus is AI bots, right?
40:43And so the places I would go are that are run your own race, knowing what matters to you and chasing that. And also not being so fixated on one role that you forget to ask the question, what do I really think? What do I need? Is this right? Is that if we have one life to live, all of the choices you're making, including whether to become VP, because that comes with costs and benefits, shape your life. So choose that very intentionally. And the reason I say it's personal is because we can very easily outgrow the organizations that we're in, or if the organizations relied on us to be one single version, and we're not that version anymore, where else might we be celebrated?
41:24Where else might the environment already support the talents that we bring, rather than having to put all this energy and trying to prove ourselves against someone else's goalpost that they continue to move? Expedia and Visit Scotland invite you to come step into centuries of history that await in Scotland. Castles steeped in legend, walk along cobblestone streets, come share the warmth of stories passed down through generations. This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore. Plan your Scottish escape today at expedia.com slash visit Scotland. So good, so good, so good.
42:08New markdowns up to 70 % off are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Stock up and stay big on shoes, tops, dresses, accessories, and more must-haves for summer. Join the Nordic Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. And with the reframe that that's growth for you, like actually standing up in that moment and saying, I'm going to enter the ring for this VP role, even if you lose it, that proves to yourself and grows the confidence in yourself to then look outside the organization, to look at another department within the organization.
42:51And we see this time and time again with our clients who have felt they came to us because of that exact thing. They felt like they were gunning for a role, maybe against one or two other people. They thought they were shoo-in because they had behind the scenes, quietly, been stacking up in their mind victories, delivering, going above and beyond, not being the most vocal, not being the most visible. And then in losing out on that role, it can be difficult to see the growth in that moment of, oh, I lost. I didn't get what I wanted. But if we can look then at like all the other ways now in pursuing that, we changed.
43:27We stepped up. We spoke up. We said we wanted something. We actually set a goal for ourself and we took real actionable steps towards it. So much better for us than playing it safe and avoiding even throwing your hat in the ring. And we found again and again with our clients that oftentimes leaving that organization was the best thing for them, What's the best opportunity for them to lean into their strengths instead of focus on their weaknesses that that organization that they were in previously was so focused on? Completely. And what we fail to factor in when we're just focused on the VP role is it is actually easier to start a new organization without the same baggage.
44:06and by baggage, I don't mean your own baggage. Baggage, I mean the relational perceptions that have calcified over time that would take a lot to undo or redo. And so it's, to me, choosing which battles you're going to fight. You can stay in the same organization and try to be like, I'm not that person anymore and try to create an environment where growth is allowed and we're going to see people in a new way or sometimes even a lateral move in a different context context that doesn't come with the same perceptions allows you to really grow. You might come back if that, you know, this one company is really your heart and soul and that's where you want to be.
44:45But the not limiting ourselves to a very linear path actually allows for more growth in multiple directions and recognition. Let's do that calculation for our analytical listeners. Hold on, I'm introverted, so I don't know if I want to talk about it. We'll cut you some slack, according to John. I think that calculation of when to speak up, when not to speak up, you know, is now dawning on some of our audience members of like, OK, I've seen in the past. I have sacrificed here. But give me something that my analytical mind can really help process. Yeah, I love this. Maybe we can link the visual of this in the show notes for our visual folks.
45:32We're going to try to meet everyone where they're at. It's what I call the cost calculator, meaning we often, when we're doing that calculation, we're so focused on what are the costs of speaking up? Like I got to find time. I got to find the words. I might have to deal with the interaction. And we're focused and fixated on the benefits of staying silent. I keep my head down. People perceive me as still on their team. I'm not going to rock the boat. That, if we're only asking those two questions, is actually flawed analysis. because what's missing from it are a second pair of questions, which is what are the costs of staying silent?
46:09No one knows what I really want, what I care about, who I am. I'm not using all my talents. I become resentful over time. What are the benefits of speaking up? Things might actually change. Others might actually know what I need. I might not be stuck. A whole universe opens up because it's not just about the next step that I can see, but every step reveals a different vantage point. So in order to make an informed and analytically honest, and I would say integritous decision, you need to ask all four questions. I structure this in two boxes and two boxes for those of you who like a two by two, right?
46:48But if you're not asking what are the cost of staying silent and the benefits of speaking up, in addition to what our brains naturally fixate on, the cost of speaking up and the benefits of staying silent, you're operating on flawed analysis. So at least make an informed decision that's not based on flawed analysis. Well, many of us have rationalized this as I'm low maintenance. And my pushback to that, and I hear this in clients, is, okay, to others, you may feel low maintenance. But let's be honest with ourselves. Are you maintaining? Is this low maintenance for you to keep up this charade of you being the low maintenance one?
47:28And now the costs are the stress you carry at home, the extra work you're doing for other people, the fact that you feel like your ideas are being sold. That doesn't sound like low maintenance to me. It sounds like you're doing a lot of maintenance behind the scenes to pretend to be low maintenance to other people. It's incredibly costly to do that. And there is a relational reward that makes it hard for us to do that analysis, I think, honestly. If I remain low maintenance, I get rewarded. People like me. They want me on my team. I'm the ultimate team player because I have no needs and I serve everyone else's needs.
48:09I say this as someone who literally lived that life for at least three decades. And then, and I made partner at a global leadership development firm. And when I started to have my own perspective of what's missing, there was rupture. And I am now a solopreneur. It is costly. But I'm also living a life that is beyond my wildest dreams. I never could have conceived that I could be doing this with the flexibility, with the caliber of clients, with the purpose, with the alignment.
48:44And I share all of that because it's real and there are messy parts, but it's also worthwhile. And it starts, I would argue, with a fundamental mindset shift. That is, you matter too. Other people matter, but you also matter because you may achieve whatever you were climbing for, but end up realizing you're here, but there's no you. This doesn't meet my needs, goals, hopes, concerns. I don't get to show up as me. I only get to show up as the shell of a person that you want me to be that fulfills your other needs. And what a horrible life to live. Yeah, I think you touched on a lot of cultural bumper stickers team first we're family teamwork and this starts very early on in education play by the rules be the team player no one wants to be seen as the person gunning but then you get to that point in your career where you realize the only people moving ahead actually are the ones who are breaking those rules who were not always the team player who were willing to put their needs above the team to get to that next level and to gun for what they really wanted And it can be really difficult when you finally make it to that level and then look around and be like, well, this is not at all what I want.
50:05And how much of yourself have you sacrificed along the way not paying attention to those internal signals? I put an even finer point on it because I went to Harvard Law School and have lots of friends who are law firm partners, which is I have then also built a life with my multiple nannies, with the golden handcuffs, my kids in private school that I am literally trapped. because then I have to unwind all of the career decisions and life decisions I've built around this path I've gone down, which to me is always the invitation to be intentional about what you're choosing along the way, because it's so much harder to untangle it and unwind it, especially when other people, family members are involved.
50:52Well, I think at this point in the episode, you've encouraged many of our audience members to finally speak up. So walk us through your four-step process to help us actually use our voice? Yeah, I'd start with why. I mean, this is the essence of behavior change, know your weight loss programs, right? What is your bigger why that you would be willing to put up with discomfort, willing to put up with rupture? And if that why is I matter too, or I want to create a different world for our kids, Whatever it is, know your why. The second is connect the dots. And in my book, this is an example of my conversation with my husband we call Toilet Gate, which is, to your point, AJ, people cannot read your mind.
51:37So you have a much better chance of connecting the dots and understanding one another if you actually spell it out. The third is make your ask clear. Again, people can't read your mind. So even if they understand my train of thought, what are you actually asking for? Are you asking for a change in budget? Are you asking for a thought partner? Or on the home front, do you want me to just listen? Or do you want me to offer solutions, right? That problem solving versus empathy tension that so many of us get trapped into and then do it wrong? How can I best support you? Or how can you best support me?
52:15And the fourth is embrace resistance. That is understanding that rupture. And anytime there is change, there is resistance either from ourselves or from the people around us. And that's not necessarily wrong, right? This is a sales technique that resistance is engagement. they say no you actually got a reply to that email that's actually good because you've got engagement understand the no where is it coming from if people are asking questions or having a difficult time that's not actually bad it means that you're doing something different which if the point of lending your insights expertise thoughts and gifts to the world is actually bringing something different you're doing something right so know your why connect the dots Make your ask clear and don't be afraid of the resistance because it's just a natural part of the process.
53:07I'm glad you brought up your husband in connecting the dots. And we see this in our coaching clients, the sense of relief after they've joined the program. And now we've helped them connect the dots. But many of our listeners are very much prodding themselves on, as Johnny said, being the introvert, being introspective, being the lone wolf. I can do this on my own. I've figured out much more complicated problems in my career. I've credentialed my way on my own with no tutoring and no other support to get there. And we trap ourselves and we cannot connect the dots oftentimes without an outside perspective, a partner, a therapist, a best friend, a coach.
53:44And really that unlock transfers to so many other areas of your life, because I guarantee you this pattern that you are bumping into and bashing your head against the wall around is a loop that's probably running in your personal relationships. That's probably bugging the crap out of your partner. And your parents are probably not along and say, that's exactly why it was so difficult raising you. But right now we've put so much focus on, okay, this problems in my career or this problems with my friend group. And we try to go inward and connecting the dots in that manner is so challenging. Yeah.
54:18And life is not a solo sport. It is completely a group sport. you look at NBA players who is on their team, not just team mates, but physical therapists, coaches, right? We cannot do this alone. And in my book on learning silence, I also talk about the double pain that comes with it, which is not just I have to deal with it, but I also think I'm the only one. Those of us who have worked across industries and with enough clients, right? I work with corporate clients who say we're such a unique organization. And I'm like, yes, you are. And I've also seen the same pattern, right? Every company I talk with says we've got a niceness problem.
55:03So we've got Salesforce nice. We've got Chevron nice. We've got, you know, enter large name nice. That's actually not a unique framing. And so you see these fact patterns. Why wouldn't you do this in community or with a team of people who have seen this fact pattern and have strategies and approaches for unwinding it. And in doing so, you also solve for the problem of isolation, going inward thinking you're the only one when, you know, there's 8 billion people on the planet. Many of us have navigated similar dynamics. But it takes, again, a mindset shift that you are worth it. You are important, but not unique in the challenges you face.
55:53And AJ, as you said, the ripple effect of the patterns that replicate at work and at home are often very similar. And so you're not just doing something good for your co-workers, you're also doing something good probably for your friends and family or whoever loves you the most. And I know you can speak to this, you know, many listening are like, oh, well, maybe I'll just be a solopreneur. That sounds great. Then I don't have to deal with teammates and I can just talk to my AI agents. But unfortunately, we're not quite there. But AI agents are not buying our products or services. Other humans are buying from us.
56:27So you may think the solopreneur of like get rid of the team and just play a solo sport. And then you're going to recognize the same pattern when you're trying to sell your services, when you're trying to deliver for your clients, when you're trying to actually make revenue. So we can't run from this. And I think that's just an important point that oftentimes doing this hard, messy work can pay off in so many other areas. And we see it in our clients, the sense of relief now of like, oh, wow, okay, I don't have this loop and this roadblock and this hangup moving forward. So what are those other goals and tasks and things that I've really cared about that I've sacrificed along the way?
57:05Let me pick those back up and let me really invest in what my voice really means. And what I love is this three levers of our voice, because I think it's such a great way to frame it for those in our audience who've been playing the silent game and maybe avoiding using it to really reconsider thinking about your voice and the impact that it has. So I'd love for you to unpack that as we wrap. Yeah, I've been saying throughout this conversation, voice isn't just what you say in a meeting, it's how you move through the world. But very tactically, again, for our tactical analytical people, we've got a framework for the visual folks.
57:43Often we think voice is what am I saying? And so that to me is just a very narrow slice of how you might be able to show up. The three levers are substance, relationship, and process. So at any point, if you want to add to the conversation, contribute, you could say something about the subject matter, right? the deadline, the timeline, the budget, why or why it's not going to work. But if you are worried about that, if you don't feel like you're the SME, the subject matter expert in that area, you don't have a PhD in whatever the topic is, you might hold back. But you still have got two other levers.
58:19The second is relationship, which is how are people feeling? As much as we talk to our AI agents and bots, we are still human. And as much as the AI agents make us feel good, real relationships, AJ, as you said, are messy. And so is someone tending to the relationship, right? I saw John smile and saying, John, what was behind that smile? What are you thinking? Who's missing from the conversation? What's the level of trust? Those are the things that people term as emotional intelligence, but that very few people are paying attention to. So you add tremendous value on a team, in a group conversation by tending to those things, relationship.
58:59The third is process, which is the least sexy of the three levers, but maybe the most important and impactful, meaning it's all of the things that we talked about before. How are we having this conversation or interaction? Are we on Zoom? Are we typing? Are we texting? Is it phone? Is it in your power hour? Is it in your time zone? Is it not in mine? All of those process choices, and by process, I just mean how we're working together, can either make it easier or harder for someone to speak up. So this goes back to the environmental piece of leaders. Are we accepting that something, a Slack message is just as important as what someone said at that 9am meeting on Thursday.
59:43And then for each of us, are we playing to our strengths? If you can say the hard things better, let me put up the quote, say, communicate the hard things better by writing them out. And also then editing out some of the things you probably don't want to say, then by all means, write the email. Because the point is to get the thought out rather than make sure you say it in a meeting at exactly the right time. Substance relationship process. You've got three different places to go. And the point is always to be able to show up and lend your insights and gifts because no one else, again, can be you and we need you.
1:00:23I love that because I think for many of us, the most obvious is substance. And therefore, especially in that group scenario where we haven't spoken up, we can feel elbowed out and we can feel like it's already been talked about. What's the deliverable? What's the project outcome? We've discussed it. We've talked about, I don't know what else to share. But if you're the introvert who loves just observing people, and maybe you are higher on the emotional intelligence and less likely to speak up, you can say, hey, you know, I recognize that in this partnership, the leader on the other side, they're really frustrated with that last email we sent about the process.
1:00:57We might want to make sure we smooth that out before we just keep talking about the deliverable here so that we get them back on our side. Wow. You added your voice added to the relationship piece here. Visibility for yourself, a great way to speak up. Or maybe you're recognizing there's an inefficiency in how we're getting that deliverable, the process. And now you can say, hey, guys, I've been playing around with Claude over the weekend And I figured out that we can actually jam together with Claude and speed up this piece. And now while everyone else is jockeying over the substance, you found two other lanes that you as the quiet one can operate in and be highly visible and maybe not even compete with anyone else because they're not as focused on those areas.
1:01:38Completely. Let me end with this, which is what is obvious to you is not obvious to everyone. Yeah. And expert blindness means that we discount what we see or what we know because we assume, oh, I know that. It's easy for me. Everyone obviously would see that. They do not. They do not. And so be sure to offer it because that question, hey, sales team, this is all sounding great, but have you consulted with engineering about what's realistic or given them a heads up because I know they've got open headcount and we really pissed them off last time, right? That's all relationship and it's in part of process of who have you talked with but that is also reducing friction enabling collaboration allowing people to get things done and just because it's obvious to you does not mean it's obvious to everyone i love that it's it's such a powerful reminder of the ways we can use our voice that we haven't even thought of by labeling self-labeling as the quiet one by self-censoring to keep some level of comfort over safety, not recognizing the impact.
1:02:46Thank you so much for joining us. It was such a great conversation for so many members of our audience who unfortunately have been self-censoring to their detriment. And ideally, I'd encourage them all to speak up. Where can our audience find out more about your work, Elaine? ElaineLynnHaring.com or I'm most active on LinkedIn, ElaineLynnHaring. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Elaine. Thanks for having me.
1:04:07We'll be right back. today in the app or at order.sweetgreen.com available at all participating locations
From the publisher
Most people think having a voice means talking more. It doesn’t.
AJ sits down with former Harvard Law lecturer Elaine Lin Hering to explore why so many capable people stay silent at work, in relationships, and in life — even when that silence comes at a cost. From people-pleasing and perfectionism to psychological safety, leadership, and self-advocacy, Elaine explains why silence is often learned, reinforced by our environments, and mistaken for professionalism.
This episode offers a practical framework for speaking up without becoming someone you’re not — and why finding your voice has less to do with volume and more to do with expressing your perspective, needs, and expertise.
Chapters
00:00 – Why capable people stay silent07:00 – Speaking up without becoming someone else14:00 – The hidden role of environment and leadership22:00 – People-pleasing, perfectionism, and self-silencing30:00 – High-stakes conversations and finding your voice40:00 – The cost calculator: when to speak up47:00 – The 4-step process for using your voice55:00 – The 3 levers of influence beyond speaking louder
communication skills, self-advocacy, leadership, psychological safety, people pleasing, perfectionism, confidence, workplace communication, difficult conversations, emotional intelligence, speaking up, career growth, influence, self expression, professional development, workplace culture, introverts, relationships, personal growth
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