In short
“Easy discipline” for long-term goal achievement—using enjoyment, creativity, variation, and momentum instead of grinding through pain or relying on willpower.
Guest backgrounds
Jia Jiang is an author and speaker (East Asian descent) who immigrated to America at 16, struggled with self-help “toughening up,” then discovered he’s a writer. He later wrote and became known for “100 Days of Rejection Therapy” on YouTube, leading to major publishing deals and speaking/public speaking.
Key claims
There’s “nothing wrong with you” if you can’t sustain hard-grit discipline; people are built differently. Find what you like most and repeat it as your core action. Procrastination is a bad-feeling loop—avoid discomfort by distraction, then feel worse, then distract more. Discipline should align with human nature: make tasks fun/artistic, use “repetition with variation,” and build momentum so stopping becomes harder.
Notable examples
100 Days of Rejection Therapy (asking strangers for $100, food requests, filming daily) turned fear into fun and boosted his career. Fitness example: home workouts (P90X, Caroline Girvins, Peloton) removed friction like driving and deciding. Momentum in outreach: follow-ups add new value/insights rather than repeated asks. Fear of rejection reframed via John Chu’s “love letter” to Coldplay after being denied using “Yellow.”
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Easy Discipline
0:03 to 0:59
Jia Jiang explains the concept of easy discipline versus traditional discipline.
“So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for.”
Understanding Easy Discipline
1:59 to 3:43
Jia Jiang explains the concept of easy discipline versus traditional discipline.
“I'd love to just jump in and break down what easy discipline is, because I feel a lot of our listeners are huge fans of traditional discipline.”
Cultural Perspectives on Hard Work
3:44 to 5:26
The hosts discuss societal views on hard work and its impact on individuals.
“Well, I think many of our listeners feel that that might be a struggle for them because they've tied so much of their self-worth to their ambition.”
The Nature of Willpower
5:27 to 7:03
Jia Jiang talks about willpower as a finite resource and alternative paths to success.
“I achieve all these things because I work harder than everyone else.”
Finding Core Values for Fulfillment
7:04 to 10:36
Discussion on aligning core values to achieve fulfillment in work and life.
“resource and not something that we need to beat ourselves up over, but recognize there's another path?”
Personal Journey of Self-Discovery
10:37 to 14:00
Jia Jiang shares his personal story of discovering his passion for writing.
“is get them aligned with their core values, the things that are important to them, the things that give them meaning in this world.”
Finding True Alignment with Your Goals
14:00 to 15:11
Learn how to align your actions with your true passions instead of external goals.
“I landed two book deals with major publishers.”
Finding True Alignment with Your Goals
15:48 to 16:15
Learn how to align your actions with your true passions instead of external goals.
“So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for.”
Understanding and Overcoming Procrastination
16:16 to 21:55
Explore the reasons behind procrastination and ways to combat it effectively.
“And that internal battle needs to be embraced.”
Making Exercise Enjoyable
21:56 to 25:56
Learn strategies to turn exercise into a fun and engaging activity.
“And try to use your own curiosity to see, what if I do this?”
Show all 25 chapters
Making Exercise Enjoyable
25:57 to 27:02
Learn strategies to turn exercise into a fun and engaging activity.
“And I just actually just did that before I came to this report.”
Making Exercise Enjoyable
27:40 to 28:01
Learn strategies to turn exercise into a fun and engaging activity.
“and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for.”
Reframing Discipline for Success
28:01 to 30:07
Learn how to view discipline positively and focus on enjoyable actions.
“From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook.”
The Misconception of Mastery Through Repetition
30:08 to 31:34
Discover the pitfalls of traditional repetition and how variation can enhance learning.
“And religiously, every day, talk to people, network, talk to people, build relationships, talk to people, influence.”
Applying Repetition with Variation
31:35 to 34:28
Explore techniques to practice skills in varied ways to maintain engagement and excitement.
“So when you think about repetition, I, I, in my book, I talk about this tool called repetition with variation, right?”
Building Routine with Enjoyment
34:29 to 36:28
Understand how to incorporate enjoyable elements into your daily routine to sustain motivation.
“And part of what I love about cooking is not cooking the same dish like him every single day, day in and day out, burnt chicken, it's the vegetables.”
Overcoming Language Barriers Through Routine
36:29 to 40:38
Learn how developing a routine can help overcome challenges in learning a new language.
“But then within that routine, I try to find the one little kernel that gives me some satisfaction.”
Overcoming Language Barriers Through Routine
40:39 to 41:14
Learn how developing a routine can help overcome challenges in learning a new language.
“That feeling is back and Mint Mobile is bringing it.”
Community Cycling and Momentum
42:00 to 42:18
Exploring how community activities can build momentum in life.
“The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew.”
Creating Momentum Towards Goals
42:18 to 45:01
Discussing the challenges of starting and stopping in goal achievement.
“And I think for many of us, the challenge with a lot of these big goals that we set for ourselves is we fail and then we stop.”
The Power of Momentum in Communication
45:01 to 47:00
How to use momentum in communication and outreach for better connections.
“Momentum can be knowledge and momentum can also be the things that you do.”
Finding Value in Tasks
47:00 to 51:08
Shifting perspective on work and finding enjoyment in task-driven roles.
“So I try to create this thing called momentum loop in everything I do.”
Reframing Fear of Rejection
51:08 to 55:59
Understanding how to overcome fear of rejection and use it as motivation.
“in the day, every day, everything, even failures, even potential threats.”
The Impact of Rejection Therapy
56:05 to 58:40
Learn how Jia Jiang's experience with rejection therapy reshaped his outlook on success and creativity.
“that many no's that many rejections asking for outlandish things on camera getting this huge youtube following personally how did that impact you outside of all the extra attention that it brought on you?”
Promoting Rejection Therapy and Jia's Book
58:41 to 58:52
Discover how to engage with Jia Jiang's work and his upcoming book, including special offers for early supporters.
“What a wonderful way to end this great episode.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook.
0:59Roll out! There's not something wrong with you. A lot of people have this feeling like, I should do this, I should do that. Like you're shooting yourself. You're shooting yourself to death. I should do this, I should do that. Then because I should do this, if I'm not doing exactly that, and then I am not a useful person, right? There's something wrong with me. We're all built differently. Every person is extremely unique based on what we like. what I will say is try to find the most, the things you like the most that will get you closer to your goal. And then just do that over and over again. Do that.
1:39Make that foundation of your achievement journey. Not the things that you don't want to do, but you should do, because you will never get there.
1:58Johnny:Welcome to the show, Ja. It's great to have you. Also good to be here, AJ and Johnny. I'd love to just jump in and break down what easy discipline is, because I feel a lot of our listeners are huge fans of traditional discipline. Pushing hard, working through pain, suffering, building grit. What do you mean by easy discipline and how can we use that to our advantage? Yeah, as you mentioned, AJ, traditional discipline is all about grinding, right? going beyond yourself and pushing the boundaries. I think there's some truth to it. But the thing is, it's just like physics, like you're going against gravity, because you're human nature.
2:40For long term, we want pleasure. We want to do fun things. We want to be able to do things easy. That's why you see some of the biggest technology companies, they deliver things to you to make your life easy. Now, the traditional discipline is going against that gravity, going against physics, human nature to be like, I can forever just push harder. But easy discipline is the opposite. It's a system or a mindset and system that make you go with your human nature. So instead of constantly trying to be like, I'm going to do things I don't want to do because it's good for me, you do things that you want to do.
3:22That's fun for you. That's more artistic for you that, that, that make you get pleasure and you, but by doing that thing, you actually, you're actually working hard. So easy discipline is a way for you to achieve discipline with, uh, with you human nature and through, through, through easy system. So that's the long answer. I should have rehearsed that better.
3:45Johnny:Well, I think many of our listeners feel that that might be a struggle for them because they've tied so much of their self-worth to their ambition. And then that identity of having grit and powering through. And even on social media, when we think about the videos, we watch the content we consume. A lot of it is about, oh, I worked harder than everyone else. I ran an ultra marathon. I pushed beyond my limits. And that's the message that we get constantly reinforced as well. So then hearing this view of discipline feels just counter to what I've built my identity around and what I value. I mean, that's a problem, isn't it?
4:23We glorify this hard working. We think hard results should also feel hard. We should feel ambition somehow require us to sacrifice in the way that we hate ourselves in the way. Right? So that's why you see in the late 2010s and you see a lot of Navy SEALs writing books about how they're pushing themselves. And you know what, what has it done? For the past 10 years, if you look at statistics, at the beginning of the new year, we're like, we're fired up. We're going to do things. It's going to be a different year. End up 9 % of the whole total population keep their new year resolutions. No matter how motivated you are at the beginning, at the end, you just fall lot because you are going against your human nature.
5:13Over the long term, human nature wins. So that's why I want to be like, let's reverse that. Let's have your human nature to go with you and you can roll downhill in a way that you don't stop. So if someone tells you, I achieve all these things because I work harder than everyone else. I can tolerate we're paying more than everyone else. Maybe we feel that's awesome. We feel like that's, woo, you know, that guy or that gal is like a super person. But when that person tells you, I'm doing work, I can't stop. I just have so much, I just work a lot. And because I feel like I'm having a great time.
5:57You think that person has problems. You're like, hey, let's be a therapist. But the thing is, if you look at the people who achieve real long-term success. Just look at people in the industry, right? The people who change industry at the top of their field. You ask them, how hard are you working? Are you here because you work harder than everyone else or because you're achieving, you're having a great time, you're learning? They will all tell you, right? They love their work. They'll all tell you they don't want to stop. They can't stop if they force them to. So that's the type of discipline I'm helping people to achieve.
7:02Johnny:so much. So how can we shift that perspective to start to think about willpower as a finite resource and not something that we need to beat ourselves up over, but recognize there's another path? Yeah, that's why I wrote this, my new book. And I, for a long time, I, for a long time, ever since I came to America, you know, I came to America when I was 16, I was in that former camp. I want, I started, the first book I read was, or these self-help books, you know, and talk about how to toughen yourself up. For a long time, I had this ambition that I wanted to do that. Like every year, every day I would have plans and I wanted to just overcome.
7:44And over and over again, I just felt straight down, just on my face. You know, I face plan in all different ways. And I started just hating myself, you know, honestly, just because I couldn't do it. But then I started thinking, what do I like to do? You know, what is the thing that, man, if I just sit there, I will do naturally, okay? Other than all the entertainment, all the video games and stuff like that. And like, even with that, I learned a lot about myself. I learned that, hey, I'm someone who loves to write. right. I'm someone who actually responds to this type of, you know, innate, you know, artistic expression.
8:27Now, what if I can just do that? What if I can actually use that as a strength and do things I like? And then, so that's really the enjoyment part, the easy part. So I talk about there are different ways you can make you like things more, right? You can like, Like you can, you can live things more, gamify it, you know, and, and, uh, and building little momentums every day you can, uh, and then make you go forward. And then the next is A, like I said, easy, right? I'm probably artistic. Meaning before I saw the world as a goal, trying a goal I'm trying to conquer. I have this goal. I'm going to go every day to, uh, to achieve it.
9:10But then I start forgetting about that goal. Don't worry about that goal. Because when you think about that goal, you're still very far away from that goal. And sometimes if you're not moving forward toward it, you feel like your gap is not getting closer. You feel discouraged. But what if I, instead of thinking about the long-term goal, I try to think about just be present. I think about how do I be the best self today. I think about how to actually take every moment I see, every moment I do and make art out of it. That's really the, you know, I see this moment between you and me, this between us, that's a moment that will not be replicated.
9:53Even though when I see each other again someday in a convention or maybe at a grocery store, but I'm never going to replicate this moment. What if I just be the best self? So in this way, I didn't think about how to have a great interview with you. I just think about how to have this great conversation with you at this moment. So those are the first two things I do, you know, make things fun, make things, you know, enjoyable. Then next thing, how to make things artistic. Think in an artist mindset with everyday move. So those are the first of my go-to moves. You brought up some very important points.
10:29I mean, for a lot of our listeners, I'm sure a lot of them are thinking, well, that's just great. if you like what you do. However, one of the first things that we do with all of our clients is get them aligned with their core values, the things that are important to them, the things that give them meaning in this world. And for a lot of them, they don't understand how that works. Well, you just brought up a very big point. When you turn everything into something of work, of art, well, then there's a core value tied to that of perhaps creativity. And for those people who don't have that, they have to look deep within themselves to find a different core value that aligns with finding some sort of enjoyment or fulfillment in the task they are doing.
11:23I'm now 52 and have been an entrepreneur for the last 20 years, which means I have had to reinvent myself and learn new skills multiple times over those two decades. And there would have been no way I would have been able to do that without having an understanding what my core values were to get me through all of the bits of learning that suck to get to a point where I'm now enjoying things. You mentioned a point about core value, right? I'll share a story with you. I met Bill Gates when I was 14. He came to China to promote Windows. The first, you know, and I thought he was the coolest guy in the world.
12:10I thought I'd be like, that's my guy. I want to be like him. Okay, probably not nowadays. Okay, he's in the news for the wrong reasons. But back then he was really cool. You just have to trust me. And when I saw him, I was like, I want to be the Chinese version of Bill Gates. That goal drove me to come to America, to take a computer science degree in college, to get jobs and start companies. That goal drove me so much. And it drove me to the ground. I mean, it did take me through the tough times I had, but also it drove me to the ground. Because later on, I found, huh, actually, the idea of wanting to be a Bill Gates, wanting to be a billionaire.
12:54and the things that are doing that take you to get you there aren't the same. The things are about hiring, you're going to fire, you're going to build products and stuff. I can be pretty good at it. I read so many books. I listen to all the podcasts in the startup world. I go to all the conventions, all the conferences to learn everything possible. But then one day, the pandemic hit and everyone got depressed for a bit because you're also fully isolated. And it took me feeling better. I'm just like, I'm going to write just to feel better. And then I just rode more and more and more. I just feel like, oh, I feel better and better.
13:36Then I look back, I was like, I'm a writer, actually. I didn't know that about myself. I thought I was real good. I thought I'm on this path. I was just grinding myself into this glory. As it turned out, inside me, I'm a writer. So I started writing and that completely turned my life around. I became so much happier and I became really good at writing. I landed two book deals with major publishers. I become a speaker, one of the only speakers of East Asian descent. And I go to public speaking. All of that because I actually found out what I like. And instead of fighting that, instead of saying, no, I'm going to be this entrepreneur.
14:19someday I'm going to ring the bell and ask that, whatever, right? But now I'm like, I'm actually doing things that I enjoy that's in their alignments with who I am. That takes a long time to actually listen to yourself, to figure yourself out. Instead of just keep suppressing it because you want to achieve an external goal.
14:35Johnny:Johnny, you remember what summer felt like as a kid? No homework, no schedule. It was total freedom. That feeling is back and Mint Mobile is bringing it. Right now, all of Mint's plans are$15 a month, even unlimited. it. That's premium wireless, high speed data, unlimited talk and text on a T-Mobile 5G network for less than you're probably spending on lunch. And you keep your phone. You keep your number. Sign up online. Done. No store. No hassle. No big wireless gimmicks. Pick a three, six or 12 month plan and you're out of the monthly bill cycle for good. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com slash charm.
15:14That's mintmobile.com slash charm. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash charm. That's it. There's no catch.
15:25Johnny:Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12 months plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Includes up to a 20 gigabyte hotspot capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew.
16:03Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. Yeah, and there's an internal battle that goes on for you to actualize that. And that internal battle needs to be embraced. As difficult as it may be, and for the people around you while you're going through it. Absolutely. Absolutely.
16:34Johnny:One of the first signals many of our listeners are facing is procrastination. So we've identified, hey, I want to be Bill Gates. I want to be the next president. I want to be a Nobel Prize winning scientist. And I'm going to study hard. I'm going to get the advanced degrees. I'm going to follow the path of the people that I idolize, that I look up to. And then you start that journey and it's hard. It's not easy to achieve these great levels to become famous enough that you are sought after by other people. And then I don't want to do this today. This doesn't feel good. This is uncomfortable. You know, I don't want to go to these conferences.
17:14Johnny:I don't have a company. I don't have an idea yet, but I want to be a startup founder. And we start to procrastinate and do things for pleasure that don't move us to our goals. What is that procrastination signal? And under the guise of easy discipline, how should we be looking at procrastination? I'll give you a personal example, right? A lot of times when you're procrastinating, what is happening is you are fighting against the feeling. The feeling is you are doing something that you should be doing. But when you do it, you're like, oh, this sucks. Right. And I'm like, okay, when that feeling is not good, what you do is, hmm, all right, let me feel better.
17:57Let me feel better. But do something that I actually like to do. Let me do something that, that distracts me. And that usually comes in the way of, I mean, you scroll, you know, you, you, you scroll on the phone, you watch, you watch stuff and, and then, then time passed. Now what? You feel worse. You're like, oh, shoot. I just wasted two hours. Instead of working to my goal, I wasted two hours on this thing that's pleasurable. Okay, what do I do? Let me get back to work, okay? Work hard. And guess what? You feel even worse this time because not only you're feeling the same task that brings you no pleasure, added the feeling that you just wasted two hours.
18:36Now, guess what? This feeling is even worse. What do you do? Oh my gosh, let me distract myself a little more. Let me do a little bit more doom scrolling. So you have this loop of feeling bad and get distracted loop. That's why people procrastinate. What I tell people to do is, is there ways? How about you? Number one thing you find is, and I make the thing that I want to do. Can I make it fun? Can I make it crazy fun? Can I make it something that I just like, oh, what is possible? I'll give you an example. I actually became, I become known because I did this thing called 100 Days of Rejection Therapy.
19:16I did this over 10 years ago on YouTube. I remember that. Yeah, so I started out by thinking, you know, I was afraid. I was doing this entrepreneurial thing, you know, grinding through, right? And then I was like, and I got rejected with the investment. I was like, oh my gosh, I have to quit. This sucks. And, but then I'm like, I'm so afraid of rejection. I should be overcoming my fear of rejection. Maybe I should have some fun with rejection. How about instead of running away from rejection, let me go look for rejection once per day for every day for 100 days. You know, I started out by asking$100 from a stranger.
19:51And then later, the next day, I try to get a burger refill. The next day, I try to get like Olympic, I try to get Olympic donuts, try to get a box of donuts that look like Olympic reins just by asking. What ended up happening is extremely counterintuitive. because this, no one likes rejection. I didn't like rejection. But 100 days of rejection therapy, the idea of me looking for rejection and filming myself that I'm putting on YouTube was fun, right? It was pleasurable. But because I did that and I couldn't stop doing, you know, I come in with the idea of I'm going to make art. I'm going to have fun this today.
20:30I'm going to talk to that person and see what happens. This thing people, sometimes people are like, you couldn't pay people to do this, but I do it. but on purpose because it was fun. And so I did it. It just blew up. My YouTube channel blew up and I have millions of views of people. I don't do YouTube anymore. But for that period, I had a lot of fun. So by letting fun, by letting this curiosity drive me, I opened up a whole door of possibilities. I didn't know that thing could exist. I didn't know what YouTube channel was. I didn't know that other people are also afraid of rejection and they're living their fears through my eyes.
21:11It becomes therapeutic for people. It opened all kind of doors, changed my career. I did that because I turned something that was hard, that was grinding into something that was fun, into something that I want to do, I'm curious to do. And the results was amazing. So I advise all the listeners that if you feel like man, you're up against it and today, right? You feel like you have to do something you don't want to do. And if that feeling repeats over and over again, don't try to fight it every day. When you do it, you're going to start failing. You're going to start hating yourself. You lose confidence.
21:52You think there's something wrong with you. Now, try to find the thing that intrigues you. And try to use your own curiosity to see, what if I do this? What if you're a salesperson? And, you know, instead of writing cold sales pitches and you're like, oh man, this sucks or maybe give it to AI or whatever, right? You'd be like, what if I have some creative write? What if I do something that always intrigues me? What if I write a love letter to a stranger? And I don't know, like I'm not a sales person, but think about the things that intrigues you and that makes it fun. Try that. Those things might open doors and you can find a different person inside you.
22:32Johnny:I think one area that many of us find procrastination comes up going along with your New Year's resolution is working out, exercising, going to the gym. We know we want to be healthier. Maybe we want to lose a couple extra pounds. Maybe we got some bad news from the doctor that we want to change our health trajectory or we're just thinking about longevity and we want to live longer. But that procrastination of getting to the gym and actually sweating and doing the hard stuff can feel like pushing a boulder uphill. So what do you say to that person who's facing that procrastination to make it fun?
23:05Johnny:How can we reorient ourselves to break through? I'm going to use the exact example because I changed my life. Like I, in my early 30s, I was that, I was hypertension. You know, that's very early for somebody in their 30s to get high blood pressure, right? And I'm like, oh my gosh, if I don't control this, I'm going to be in trouble. So I need to start exercising. So I mean, but I don't want to go to gym. This idea of me going to the gym, driving there every day, just driving. I bought a gym. I bought like two years worth of gym membership. Pretty much I used. Pretty much I went there a couple of times like, oh, you know what?
23:42I'll go the next day and then never go. And they just spend the money. That's how you make money. I'm like, okay, my biggest friction is for me to drive to the gym. What if I just live at home? What if I just do things? I also, instead of my, I feel like my biggest friction point that I, this procrastination is me changing my clothes and go to the gym and sitting there deciding what to do. All right, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. And what do I do? So I started just looking for things that be, like you tell me what to do instead of me doing it. It's not me trying to figure out what to do.
24:21So I did P90X, that really changed my life. I'm sure a lot of you have heard that. The reason is that simple. You know, Tony Horton, this great trainer, he tells you what to do. He's funny, right? You just do what he does. You don't have to even think about it. And guess what? I got addicted to doing that. So I started doing that. I followed Tony Horton. Later I did this woman called Caroline Gervin. She's amazing. This Irish woman. And now I can't stop working out. And also I bet I also bought a Peloton, you know, and because it's at home, I don't have to go out and I'm just in my, you know, I just see my workout room.
25:03I did Peloton at one day, the next day, I do weight training with Caroline on YouTube. She's on YouTube, by the way. And I just do this every day. And then I started adding things that I want to do into this, right? So when I'm writing Peloton, I watch TV. I just watch TV, I drive the Peloton. And, but when I do a workout, I listen to podcasts. I listen to a few episodes of yours, you know, just doing workouts. And so I, now I reduced all the fictions that was holding me back, this procrastination. And then I added a sugar, actually not sugar, don't do sugar, don't do sugar in real workouts. But I added mental sugar into my workout.
25:49Now, every day I came, every day, this is my stable. Every day I get, I got up, I do workout, had a lot of fun. And I just actually just did that before I came to this report. So remove all the fictions you have, all those things that you want to want to do. Try to do, if you can do it at home, do it at home. If you don't, that's fine. Go to the gym, but remove the things you hate. And then also add fun. You know, this thing, this idea of habits stacking. Add the things you want to do to the things you don't want to do, but you feel it's hard. And together, they're a nice meeting.
Read the full transcript
26:27Johnny:Johnny, you remember what summer felt like as a kid? No homework, no schedule. It was total freedom. That feeling is back and Mint Mobile is bringing it. Right now, all of Mint's plans are$15 a month, even unlimited. it. That's premium wireless, high-speed data, unlimited talk and text on a T-Mobile 5G network for less than you're probably spending on lunch. And you keep your phone. You keep your number. Sign up online. Done. No store. No hassle. No big wireless gimmicks. Pick a three, six or 12 month plan and you're out of the monthly bill cycle for good. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com slash charm.
27:06That's mintmobile.com slash charm. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash charm. That's it. There's no catch.
27:16Johnny:Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12 months plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Includes up to a 20 gigabyte hotspot capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew.
27:55Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook.
28:07Johnny:Well, I think many of us have heard discipline is pain. And what you're talking about is being that discipline to show up and do it again and again. That's painful. And now, as the pleasure-seeking side of me is like, but I don't even want to get started in something so painful. And how should we look at discipline now recognizing that, hey, hard discipline might not be the way for me and that might be taking me off course? Yeah, absolutely. First of all, the biggest mindset shift is there's not something wrong with you. Okay. A lot of people have this feeling like if I'm not doing the things I'm supposed to do, right, I should do this.
28:49I should do that. Like you're shooting yourself. You're shooting yourself. to death. I should do this. I should do that. Then because I should do this, if I'm not doing exactly that, and then I am not a useful person, right? There's something wrong with me. There's not like we're all built differently. There are things that we, that I like that you don't. There's just, every person is extremely unique based on what we like. What I will say is Try to find the most, the things you like the most that will get you closer to your goal, all right? And then just do that over and over again. Do that. Make that foundation of your achievement journey.
29:34Not the things that you don't want to do, but you should do because you will never get there. Do the thing you want to do and do that again, again, and again. And then you can start adding others on top of it. but always have that core action. You know, for me, is I love to write and love to speak. So I write every day. That becomes a core action, right? For you, I don't know. Like, you know, you're in the corporate world. If you're a people person, if conversation with people, making connection, that's your core thing. Make that your foundation. Talk to people every day, every day. And get energy from it.
30:16And religiously, every day, talk to people, network, talk to people, build relationships, talk to people, influence. If you like to teach, right? And every day think about how you can teach something to someone. And if you like to write, every day make that your core, right? If you find that your core and just do that thing. And make no apologies about it. There's nothing wrong with going crazy on the things that you love.
30:42Johnny:Well, I think what I'm hearing that I'm sure a lot of listeners are saying, okay, well, repetition, I just got to do repetition to arrive at mastery. And then we burn ourselves out through that repetition. We feel bored, we feel like we've struggled to do the same thing day in and day out. And it's counter to what you're saying around creativity. I I'm starting to understand I want to be creative but I've been told to master something I got to do it 10 ,000 hours I got to do the same thing day in and day out to reach that level of mastery yeah that's the biggest uh probably the the most useful and most damaging thing all at the same time this idea of Malcolm Gladwell's 10 ,000 hours right a lot of people think 10 ,000 hours man I can I can't even do one hour like five minutes later I'm gone so we'll happen to do 10 hours 10 ,000 hours, right?
31:35So when you think about repetition, I, I, in my book, I talk about this tool called repetition with variation, right? I do this every day, but differently. So every day, I create a different scenario. So, um, I use this, uh, story of, uh, you know, this guy, uh, is, uh, if you're a sports fan, you know, this, uh, you, you, if you're an NBA fan, you've heard of him. He's the coach of the Boston Celtics. His name is Joe Mazula. So what happens is he's got a really talented team, right? But his team could never get over the hump. He was never to win their championship. They were in the final four of the NBA for like years, but they could never win the big one.
32:17That was because when things get really tough, they mentally break down. They get out of the comfort zone. So the first thing that became the coach is like, how do I get these people out of their comfort zone every day? How can they become more resilient in different situations, right? When things get tough. So he started this idea that every day his practice is different. Every day. He events a scenario for his players every day. So one practice, he would have people just, you cannot dribble the ball. That's why you have to dribble, right? Nope. Today's game, you can't dribble. You can only pass and shoot.
32:54now that involves everyone moving and practicing. The next day, he's like, okay, today we're going to do football, basketball. Basically, everyone talks to each other, right? The defense will be like, you know, very physical and you can't get mad, right? And then there's another day, it's like you play, he would play Simpson. He would play Mozart in the background. And then now you're, I don't know, being like making music and making art play basketball. So he would change up these things every day and do a different scenario, right? He's doing practice. That's all practice. But there's repetition with variation.
33:34And I started using this with my own work, right? Every day when I write, for example, I started adopting a different character. Today, like if I'm getting bored with my writing, right? Okay, today I'm this guy. Tomorrow I'm a little bit melancholy. and think I'm kind of reflecting on life. The next day, I'm the best joke writer ever. I'm just gonna write jokes. I'm having a great time. The next day, I become this inspiration guy. I become this like, here's what I'm gonna teach you. The next day, I'm a coach. I'm a personal, just being one-on-one. I'm speaking to your heart. And I start changing things up for every day I do.
34:14And it's so much fun. So this tool, whatever you do, try to come up with a different scenario every day. And that makes your goal fun.
34:27Johnny:Yeah, I love that idea because I feel, even for myself, some of the things that I enjoyed the most have naturally built that variation in. So Johnny knows I love cooking. And part of what I love about cooking is not cooking the same dish like him every single day, day in and day out, burnt chicken, it's the vegetables. I like trying to learn different cuisines and different techniques. And through that variation, I've been able to consistently be cooking for our family day in and day out without feeling like, oh, this is drudgery. This is hard work. This takes discipline for me to home cook every meal.
35:00Johnny:So that variation has naturally been there for me. And I think for many in our audience, if you think about the things you've stuck with, there has been a level of variation, whether it's playing new styles of music or watching different types of exercise or trying different activities to work on your mobility or your strength, mixing it up. I think that variety actually creates the sustainability to get to your goals. A hundred percent. That's why I think when it came to the home gym revolution, right? In the late 2000s, early 2010s, right? I would think P90X was actually a big breakthrough. And I learned a lot about, you know, workout because, you know, they would start doing something different every day.
35:48Now it's very normal. You go on YouTube, there are different programs that people do it. But the trick is you don't do the same. You do a different work. And even you work on the same muscle groups, the next work is always different. You always change it. This way you keep yourself engaged, you keep yourself fun. and otherwise you do the same thing over and over, that becomes driverly really quickly. For another aspect of that, it is, at least for myself, the parts that I am not excited about, I make them routine so that I'm just doing, they're part of what I'm doing every day, so it's going to get done.
36:31But then within that routine, I try to find the one little kernel that gives me some satisfaction. And that is where I get to create that. That little piece is where I get to have fun, where everything around it is just routine. It's just happening. It's going to happen regardless. Even if I'm having a bad day, it's going to get done because I have built a routine around that. But on the days that I'm excited, I'm focused on that one little thing that I get to enjoy within that routine and process. And that helps certainly in learning new things because when you're learning, everything is new.
37:18And so there's so much failure going on around every aspect of it. So the routine part allows you to slowly get better at one little new piece every day while enjoying that one little kernel that's wrapped inside of it that you get satisfaction from. When I first came to America, right, I was a 16-year-old. I didn't speak a word of English. And I learned, I mean, I can say hi. I can say thank you. And that's pretty much it. I said, okay, I know, I know how to, I knew how to say, okay. And I was the cultured chain student, right? And then I went to rural Louisiana of all places, my whole family.
38:01And the way people speak there is a little bit different than, than everywhere else. So, and the social isolation and the idea of learning English was just overwhelming. It was overwhelming. The culture shock and everything that, that, that the schoolwork. So for the first two months, it was just miserable because I couldn't talk to anyone and it was bad. I just constantly beating myself up. Like, why can't I speak like that person? So I thought about maybe I should go home. You know, maybe I should, this is not for me. Then I talked to my uncle. He's a great, he's a great, also come from China, but he became a very well-known lawyer.
38:44And he speaks impeccable English. So he taught me saying, instead of doing all the things that, that you think you should do, the idea that you're going to speak, you're going to write, you got to do grammar. How about you try to find one thing that you would like and you do, you develop a routine on that. And I was like, okay, what is that one thing? So I developed a routine of me writing every day. I will go through a day and I see a lot of words I don't understand, right? I will write down every word that I don't understand and put them in this right on the, on the, on index card. Then I read it, you know, I read definition on the back index, the words on the top and I put them in random pile, right?
39:25Every day I would put up 15 of them and I learned the word. And also I try to have a conversation. I have to use that word in that conversation. Some of these words are tough, you know, and, and, and like, you know, gang, gang, say, like I learned that word. I'm like, what the, I, the tough D was that word. And people were like, what's wrong with you? Right. But there are words that are pretty easy. And that was actually fun. So I, I was, I look forward to that one thing every day. When I was happy, I did that one thing. I did that, that index card. And, and when I was sick, I did that. When I was sad, I did that.
40:04And that became my, my foundation every day. And that was, reputation was variation because every day I got tried different things. I started just having conversations and that became my English blew up. And I, you know, I, I started writing better. And now I'm, I do, I'm a professional speaker, right? Of course, I still speak with a, with an accent, but it's fine. This is who I am. This is like, you know, actually my trademark. So people pay me a lot of money for people hearing me talk now. And that was all because I found that one thing I liked and build a routine over that.
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41:17That's mintmobile.com slash charm. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash charm. That's it. There's no catch.
41:27Johnny:Upfront payment of$45 for three months, $90 for six months, or$180 for 12 months plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Includes up to a 20 gigabyte hotspot capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was. The bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew.
42:06Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook.
42:18Johnny:What it sounds like you did is you built momentum. And I think for many of us, the challenge with a lot of these big goals that we set for ourselves is we fail and then we stop. And then the longer we stop, the harder it is to start again. and then the gym clothes are collecting dust. The guitar hasn't been picked up in months. You haven't gone out of your house and tried to speak to new people and you've avoided that rejection because, well, I stopped and the cost of getting started again just gets increasingly more difficult the longer you stop. So how can we create momentum where the stopping is out of the equation and actually feels like we're moving towards our goals consistently because that start stop is what breaks for so many of us, Even our coaching clients were like, oh, I want to be more social.
43:04Johnny:I want to have better relationships. But I didn't feel like reaching out today. Oh, it was easier for me to watch Netflix. Or I didn't really want to go on that date because I have a lot of work at home. So it's easy for me to cancel last minute. And that cost of start-stop keeps us from the action that makes things fun, that actually moves us forward. Yeah, you mentioned momentum, right? A lot of what I write is based on physics. I'm actually like a big physics guy. When I see physics, it doesn't mean like the hardcore physics. I see like Newton's law. If something is not moving, it's hard to get started.
43:48But once things start to get moving faster and faster, it's hard for that thing to stop. How can I get moving in a way that's hard for me to stop? is actually by doing this thing with variation, but also adding momentum. So I started finding out like when I did 100 days of rejection therapy, right? Every day I would go on and do something. And people will tell me, Ja, you're so brave by asking stuff to strangers. I'm like, I can't stop. This is so much fun. Why? Because I will learn what I did that day, right? What that person tells me, what is my interaction was, I would write it down. I would write what did I learn that day?
44:32And I would, next day, I would apply that very skill, you know, that very observation the next day. And then I gained a little bit more knowledge that day. So then I added again. So every day I became a better, like a communicator. I became a better negotiator. And that just started, I just started capturing momentum. By the end, it became so good. I could ask anything from anyone, anywhere. I felt I was able to capable because of this knowledge momentum. All right. Momentum can be knowledge and momentum can also be the things that you do. So a lot of the people I know they would, you know, whether they write or rather they write, you know, they do outreaches to salespeople or they do corporate outreaches, right?
45:19Sometimes you have to write someone email when they're not expecting you, right? And you pitch them something or you ask them to do something. It could be sales, could be corporate world. Most people, when they write something, they just write, right? And they get ghosted. They're like, huh, okay. Then it's like, hey, just want to bring this attention. Just want to, then no one says anything. Just want to follow up, right? Then after three times, you feel like, oh man, this is, I'm heading to a dead end. You know, I'm getting ghosted. What if you start adding momentum to this conversation, to this email.
45:54And this is what I do now. When I reach out to people, I reach out to people the first time, right? I must be, I mean, hopefully they respond. If they don't, at the next time, I never follow up with them. I never be like, can you do this? I always added something. I was like, hey, I did this. And I found out this insight I want to share with you, right? Then I forward to that, the initial email. Now my next, this one has a little bit of momentum. If you don't respond again the next time, or add again. And I said, hey, I found this about you. You know, I found this about your company. I found this about your team.
46:28So now I did three things that has momentum, even though the other person hasn't responded yet. And you know what? The salespeople who actually do this, instead of trying to bother people over and over again, but they try to add momentum and value to every outreach they make three to four times, they are the people who get the sales because the other person feels like, oh, there's something new. But momentum, it works in physics. It also works in your habits, your tasks. It works in everything. So I try to create this thing called momentum loop in everything I do.
47:06Johnny:So how should we be approaching those first three assets, those first three moves to jumpstart the momentum? Yeah, get yourself ready. You know what I'm saying? So like the example is, you know, writing people emails, right? Think about the different things you can talk to that people, right? Add a little bit of variation every time you do. If you are thinking about doing something, right? If you think about I'm going to learn something, always add what you're doing today based on yesterday, right? always added that added knowledge to what you do. If you're thinking about writing, writing blogs or you always, you add, you make what you're writing a full progress.
48:01You tell a story based on what happened yesterday. Based on what you wrote yesterday. So now everything you do is added on and that creates momentum on its own.
48:15Johnny:so looking at those in our audience now who are recognizing i have these big ambitious goals i don't have any momentum i feel stuck and in a lot of ways i'm not finding fun in any of it but i have bills to pay i can't just start creative writing i got to show up to work i got spreadsheets i have to crunch i have patients i have to talk to i got a business to build. How do we handle that tension, that duality where the stuff that actually pays our bills isn't fun, doesn't feel fun. The fun has been taken from us through the act of having to do that work. The thing that pays your bills is not a task.
48:58It's the value that task brings. Okay. So a lot of people think that we have to do this particular thing to be able to get paid. You people who get paid the most are the thing that are the people who do their thing, but bring the most value. Now, what you want to try to find is how can I bring the value I'm bringing in or even a lot more based on things that can be different. I'll give you an example. Okay. I work with a lot of tech workers and in the valley. I live in Northern California. I live in Silicon Valley. A lot of tech workers are very anxious now, nowadays, because they feel their work is going to be taken over by AI.
49:44So a lot of people are even writing, building this thing. And they feel like, man, I'm writing, I'm working myself out of job because everything I do, you know, is recorded in AI. Sometimes AI will do it and I'll be out of job. Someone is so sure. I have two people who told me that I'm going to lose my job by the end of this year. I know that for sure. I know that it's because it's coming and I should move to a different country. You just see this drudgery coming, right? So I was like, what if you change your mindset instead of fearing it, instead of having, how about you just having fun? Like you never know what's going to happen tomorrow with AI or whatnot.
50:24Instead of having this drudgery, what if you change your mindset to say, how about I do the most AI? How about I make this on my company AI ready? How about I become the AI expert? How about if I try to say, you know, say, how can we make AI the most added value for myself, for my team, or for everyone? If you change that mindset, right? You start creating momentum. You start seeing things a different way. You start seeing things as a task you have to do. Then what you end up doing is you're going to bring way more value by being in that role than this confined role you give to yourself. Don't be task-oriented, right?
51:06Think like an artist. An artist will see everything that happens in the day, every day, everything, even failures, even potential threats. Those here are your potential ingredients to make art, right? Those are your ingredients to actually to create something that was not there. Having that mindset shift can actually make you do things differently and see things differently and feel differently. In the end, how you feel about things determines whether you do them, how well you do them.
51:38Johnny:Well, what strikes me in all of this is many of us fear failure. We fear rejection. And that fear stops us from taking the actions that can even create the fun, that can create the momentum that can open up this new perspective and new way of thinking about ourselves and shift our identity. So to those in our audience who've felt overcome by that fear of rejection from talking to someone new, sending that cold outreach, connecting with someone they don't know on LinkedIn, stepping outside of their comfort zone, or the fear of failing, like picking up the guitar and not playing a single note, opening up your notebook and saying, I want to write today and and not being able to put pen to paper and create anything.
52:20Johnny:What do you say to them to help them overcome that fear? Because that fear keeps us from the action that creates the momentum and opens the doors to fun. People have fear of failure and rejection because what they focus on is the perceived success, is the perceived acceptance. They think that's where opportunity lies, right? If someone says yes to me or I get to do what I want to do, I made it. Right. What if you change that mindset? What if you're like, what if the failure itself? Whatever, okay, failure, success, whatever happens next is the opportunity. What if I just lean into that rather than having to get from A to B, this perceived outcome, for example, there's this famous Jiang Chu he's a famous director he's the director for Wicked I'm sure you've watched the movie I think the one Oscar last year I think I could be wrong but he became famous he came to know in this movie Crazy Rich Asians back in 2016 it was the first movie that's like all Asian cast and he wanted to write use the song Yellow at the end of the movie and so the Yellow I mean it was by Coldplay right so he was like hey Coldplay can I use your song at the end of my movie they're like no we don't want to turn our song into a slur right there's a lot racial uh you know stereotype but we don't want to use that word for that particular movie that's a failure right they said no that's a rejection and then john chu he wrote a letter to to uh to them and he's like you know for when i grew up in i was born and raised in america for a long time this this word yellow has a very complicated relationship with me right it could be uh you You know, it could be, most of the time it's not good.
54:32But for the first time, when I listened to your song, I felt the world can be so beautiful. I felt this phrase can be, describe the most beautiful thing I can hear in the world. I changed my perspective with the word. And that's why this song is so important to me. And I want people to associate this term and this song with the most beautiful thing they can think of. It was in half an hour. They saw, Lee Coppola saw this letter. They're like, sure, let's do it. So most people, when they get rejected like that, they just leave it like that. They're like, okay, that's fine. To me, what John Chu did was he made art out of that rejection.
55:16He wrote a love letter to this song, right? And he would not be able to do that had he not been rejected. That's where the artist mindset lies into. When you get rejected, when you feel things don't go your way, instead of complaining, instead of like being mad, yeah, get creative. Think about what opportunity you can create based on that failure. When you have that, now sometimes I look for rejection. Like I'm like, okay, ask people something. If I get a no, if I get a yes, great. If I get a no, awesome. Now I get to see a hug and turn that around. So that's how you lose that fear.
55:59Johnny:so coming out of that experiment and i know it was a over a decade ago what was the biggest aha moment for you personally that changed the trajectory of your life because going through that many no's that many rejections asking for outlandish things on camera getting this huge youtube following personally how did that impact you outside of all the extra attention that it brought on you? Uh, it changed me as a person, uh, because before I think I thought the world go with a script, right? You have a goal. You, the goal requires you to perform a certain task. If you master those tasks and do them well, you'll achieve your goal.
56:43It's pretty simple. I thought the world was, world, uh, worked like that. And that's the world I couldn't succeed in because I hated to do those tasks. But since then, I found the world is so different than I thought. And there are so many ideas, so many innovations, so many creativity that's killed here. Because I thought, these things don't follow that script. These things I should cast, I should focus. I'll just single-mindedly focus on that particular task. And then I disregarded all those things that came to me, those ideas came to me. After 100 days of rejection therapy, I learned that it's those things, those weird things, those weird ideas, those wacky thoughts that come to you, those are your opportunities.
57:39Because those things actually say something about you. And you are the biggest weapon or asset in your achievement, not the script, not the how hard you work. It's not the script, it's you. It's who you are. I did a hundred days of rejection therapy because it spoke to me. It felt wacky, it felt fun to me. So I started just building everything based on me, based on what I, that was speaks to me. The results was I'm able to make art, write books, give speeches, you know, give interviews and talk to people, have conversations, work with clients the way I knew how. and the best way I can do it. But it's also, there's a unique way that only I can deliver.
58:26So find that thing that speaks to you. Don't aim at what works. Aim at what moves you. That's really the starting point of your success.
58:41Johnny:Beautifully put. What a wonderful way to end this great episode. Where can our audience find out more about the work you do, Joe? Yeah, you can, Find me, if you're interested in rejection therapy, you can go to rejectiontherapy.com. I bought, I actually bought the website, I bought the cars, I bought all the assets, but it was a lot, you want to go overcome your fear of rejection and that's where you go, rejectiontherapy.com. If you want to pre-order, if you want to buy my book, you know, you can, I built a wall of all supporters. You can, your name can be forever, forever be with my new book, right?
59:18and that wall will never change. So if you buy a book and go to jiajian.com, j-i-a-j-i-a-n-g.com slash 10 ,000, the first 10 ,000 purchase of my book get to be on the wall. So if you upload your name, you're going to be on the wall and that wall will be forever. Thank you so much for joining us, Jia. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Have a great time. Thank you.
59:56Johnny:Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-CONTACTS. The Viore Core Short moves with you. With everyday versatility and classic athletic fit. It's the one short for everything your day brings.
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From the publisher
Discipline gets a lot easier when you stop treating misery as proof that you’re doing it right.
AJ and Johnny sit down with author and rejection expert Jia Jiang to challenge the traditional idea that success requires endless willpower, grinding, and suffering. Jia explains his approach to “easy discipline”—reducing friction, making difficult work more enjoyable, and building routines around the things that naturally give you energy.
You’ll learn how to break the procrastination loop, use “repetition with variation” to avoid burnout, build momentum that makes consistency easier, and rethink failure and rejection as opportunities for creativity. Jia also shares lessons from his 100 Days of Rejection experiment and why lasting success starts with finding what moves you instead of blindly following someone else’s blueprint.
Episode Resources:
https://www.jiajiang.com
https://www.amazon.com/Easy-Discipline-Unconventional-Achieve-Ambitious/dp/1668093588
Chapters
00:00 – Why discipline doesn’t have to feel hard06:15 – Make difficult goals easier and more enjoyable13:05 – What procrastination is trying to tell you19:15 – Removing friction from habits that don’t stick25:30 – Repetition with variation beats boring repetition32:25 – The routine that helped Jia learn English36:35 – How to build a momentum loop42:00 – Finding value when your work isn’t fun45:40 – Turning rejection and failure into opportunity49:10 – Stop following the script and find what moves you
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Keywords
discipline, procrastination, easy discipline, habits, motivation, consistency, rejection, fear of rejection, fear of failure, personal growth, self discipline, behavior change, momentum, willpower, productivity, goal setting, creativity, routines, mindset, confidence
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