The Job Search Mistake Everyone Makes | Michelle Schafer

25:01And now those second degree connections can happen. Those weak ties can lead to opportunities. For sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's it is. It's just part of building relationships. And, And, you know, for anybody who is hesitant to network, I mean, networking does get a bad rap sometimes. I mean, AJ, you've probably gone to events and I've been to events where, you know, you encounter the first person at the door. That person thrust their business card in your face. Transaction. Starts talking at you. The transaction, right? I want to get your card. You wrote about this on LinkedIn the other day.

25:35Actually, it was great. But networking is not transactional. It's not about selling yourself. it's actually the reverse of that. It's about learning about the other person, learning about where they are, what was their career path, what's their organization like as a place to work, which means that networking, I like to think I reframe it as research through conversation. Conversation as being the important element of it. You are learning through talking to other people. We have conversations with people we don't know every single day, right? You're in the line at the grocery store or like, you know, for, you know, individuals with kids and like parents of their kids' friends or any of those individuals.

26:14We're talking to people. But in a job search and especially career development, networking is just really seeking out individuals who we can have conversations about, learn about what they're doing in their organization that will support our job search. And it can just really open up the door and make networking accessible for people, even that are really hesitant to do it. Yeah. And I think that the misnomer there is that we have to be transactional to get ahead. So I have to be thinking about, well, what can I get out of this person? Or if I do a favor, then I'm going to naturally get something back.

26:46Yeah. Whereas networking for me is just it's five minutes a day of just giving those favors to the people that are on my LinkedIn, the clients that I've worked with, the friends in my phone that maybe haven't checked in on and not looking at it as like, OK, well, well, how do I connect all the dots to get to this place that I want? But just looking at it, if I spend five minutes a day helping people, then when I'm in that situation where I really need help, I've helped so many people, it's going to flow back to me effortlessly. It totally is. Yeah. The universe has a way of delivering, doesn't it?

27:16You know, and if we're if we're giving of ourselves to other people, it will come back. And, you know, I've I've talked to people who sometimes are are so hesitant to reach out, AJ, because they feel I don't want to bother anybody. That person is too busy. And so I say to them, let's just reverse the situation for a moment. So I say, let's say you are back employed at your previous organization doing what you were doing. And maybe a friend or somebody reaches out to you and says, you know what? I'm really interested in your organization or I really want to follow your career path. Would you have 15 or 20 minutes to talk with me?

27:52So I say to this client, what would you do in that situation? And I mean, nine times out of 10, people will say, well, of course I would help them out. Of course I would give time. So I say, stop right there. Is it possible, is it a little bit possible that if you reach out that somebody will respond in the same way and then they stop and think, yeah, yeah, I guess it would be. So I say, it is okay to reach out. If they say no, it's not the worst thing in the world and it's okay to follow up after a couple of weeks. But if they say no or they ghost you, nothing happens. Move on to the next person.

28:26You've got other people in your circle who would be more than happy to help you out. Well, that that reaching out to a busy person or reaching out to a person of higher status. I think the most frustrating thing to be on the receiving end of that, being busy, recognizing that a lot of people who follow me on LinkedIn or are in my network might want that support is when I'm getting questions or asks that are going to take a lot of time. are readily available information that if you just talk to ChatGPT or you watch the YouTube video, you could figure out. But if you're specific in your request that shows you're thoughtful and the thing that you need, again, it's time boxed in a way that I can give it to you quickly, that I'm, no matter how busy I am, I feel compelled.

29:05Yeah, I want to help. Absolutely. And I mean, sometimes we can fool ourselves into thinking, oh, how is this person really going to be able to help me? And I've heard that from people that say, oh, like a friend of mine or a former colleague has recommended that I speak with somebody else. Well, what is that person going to be able to do for me? I say, go for the conversation anyway with your clear call to action and you just never know what will come out of that. And I remember when I was looking for work. So, I mean, I've been a career coach for 10 years, but before that I was in financial services, I was in not-for-profit, I was restructured twice.

29:40So my job was taken away from me, not with my choosing and I reinvented myself both times. But I remember when I was looking for work, there was this one person and I was introduced to them and I thought, what is this individual going to be able to do for me? He was working in a sector I didn't really want to get into. He was with an organization that I thought, no, that's not really a fit for me. And he was in a path, fundraising, that I really didn't want to follow. But I went for the conversation anyway. Well, he actually offered to take a look at my resume, take a look at my cover letter. He gave me some really strategic feedback that actually helped me get interviews after that, like more interviews than before.

30:17Had I said no to that, thinking, well, he's not going to be able to help me, I would have cut myself off from that. So, you know, networking is that thing that can really open up doors, not just necessarily to new connections, but it could be new insights and strategies that will really inform your job search. I mean, it's so important that you just can't ignore. You just can't, you know, not do it in a job search now. Well, I feel a lot of people are facing that reinvention situation. So I want to dig deeper into that because I know and even myself, you know, in my own career, I have a lot of side projects going on that I'm not as public about on LinkedIn or sharing because some of these channels don't really pertain to the coaching business that I have.

31:02But in my side ventures, every time I've entered into a conversation with someone who knew me as the coach or knew me as the podcaster is like, oh, wow, you're doing this AI marketing agency on the side. OK, that's fascinating. I want to learn more. I'm not sharing that publicly. And I think for a lot of people, when they've been in a role for a very long time, maybe they've worked in finance or maybe they've been in consulting or maybe they've been in hospitality. And that's kind of outwardly on LinkedIn. That's what they've shared. They're feeling the heat internally at work. They want to reinvent themselves.

31:31But then to start posting about that publicly with their coworkers, their boss might raise some red flags and make them more likely to be let go in that next round. So they're very hesitant to share that. And that's why I love the conversation because the more conversations you get in, they're not public. These are private conversations that allow for that opportunity for you to reinvent yourself, to talk through some new ways that you can leverage those skills, some industries you haven't thought of, and some connections that might actually have opportunities outside of the industry that you're in.

32:02We can't reinvent ourselves without the conversations. Exactly. I mean, I have some clients who come to me and they say, you know what? I think I might want to get into consulting, start my own business. And that's all great. I mean, now as a business owner myself, I mean, I've been, I mentioned I've been a career coach for 10 years and I joke that at age 46, I finally figured out what I was going to do when I grow up. I mean, I'm 56 now. But yeah, it's certainly a process. And, you know, I started, I remember my very first reinvention from financial services and a not-for-profit, a few friends of mine actually did say, you would be great as a fundraiser.

32:41I mean, I had never done sales before, but somehow they thought because of my relationship building skills, that would certainly lend itself very well. It absolutely does in fundraising. So if I just started applying for fundraising roles, that would have been the biggest mistake Because what I found through the conversation, by meeting with fundraisers, by asking them questions, different organizations, different sizes of organizations too, I realized, you know what? Fundraising is not going to be my next gig. And I'm glad that I did that. But that was the research through the conversation. Yes, I did some research online, but I learned so much by talking to other people.

33:18And that's why, you know, especially when you are gainfully employed and you're starting to think about what that path might be going forward, start doing that research early. Like while you're working, you can be very quietly tapping into your very trusted circle and starting to have those conversations and starting to really align yourself with a path. going back to those five questions, when you do that reflection, it can really intentionally help you to align yourself with a path that's really meaningful for you. Picture this late at night, scrolling through your feed. You see the product you've been looking for.

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36:12Promo code CHARM for 30 % off mattresses, plus an extra$50 off. Support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. Lisa.com, promo code CHARM. I love that you shared with people that you're close with. hey, you know, part of the reinvention process is I don't really know what it is that could be that next thing, but you know me really well. So what do you see in me that might be a blind spot or I hadn't thought of or an industry that maybe I haven't touched yet that would actually be a really good fit for my skill set, my mentality and the way I approach work? Yeah. I mean, those plant I call those like planted seeds, you know, when and it could be even in passing, you know, where somebody says randomly one day, like, I think you'd be great as X, Y, or Z.

36:56And that actually happened to me. That's what led me to coaching. So a friend of mine in my last year, I was working for a large national cancer organization. And a friend of mine who is a coach just randomly said one day, I never understood why you didn't get into coaching. And at the time I said, but I love my job. I'm working with these volunteers. They're very attached to the cancer cause. I am as well. I had successfully negotiated a five-day-a-week job to three days a week so I could be home with my kids when they were younger. All of those things really aligned for me. So I said to her, well, yeah, the timing.

37:30Like, why would I think of that? I really love my job and the people I work with. But then fast forward a year, I was restructured and I lost my job. And I never lost sight of what it is that that friend told me. So I kind of, you know, took that seed from the back of my head. And I thought, you know what, maybe this is the universe giving me a sign. I should really check this out. So then I started, I mean, I was looking for work, obviously, but I was starting to network with other coaches. I want to know, well, what do you specialize in? What kind of coaching school did you go to? What's rewarding about coaching?

38:00What's scary or challenging about coaching as well? Like I wanted the full picture. And through that process, I realized, you know what, like this is something I don't just want to do it off the corner of my desk. I want to do this more full time. And that did lead me to establishing my coaching practice, getting a coaching certification, and really establishing myself in the marketplace, like with no clients to start. But it really aligned for me. And all of that came, it definitely did the research. But that planted seed, you know, when friends or other colleagues maybe say, you know, I really see this kind of path for you.

38:36I think that's a great point. You know what, Especially when you're looking to reinvent yourself and find something new. Ask people who are really close to you. They might have some really significant ideas that might surprise you. Yeah. And the other ask is go back to previous roles and managers you worked with, team members that are doing amazing things and check in with them and say, you know, I'm in this seat currently. I'm in this role. And, you know, I'm not sharing this publicly, but privately, I'm actually thinking I want to make a change. Yeah. You know, what do you see in me in my last role or that last opportunity we had to work together that, you know, might give me that perspective that I need around this reinvention?

39:14Yeah. Because, again, the hardest part in all of this and the reason I want to have you on the show is I know how impactful this is on our relationships when we're stressed and anxious about work. Oh, my gosh. And then when the worst happens and you lose it and you are on flat footing because you didn't tend the fire, you haven't looked at your resume in years, you haven't touched your LinkedIn in 10 years. And now you're realizing that you're up against people who are sending 300 resumes a day. I know. And just spraying and praying is not going to get you that role that you want. Absolutely. Yeah.

39:45I mean, there's just so many things that we can just be doing ongoing that are really impactful. I mean, I'm working with somebody right now and, you know, she's having a hard time in her job search. And I asked her point blank about how supportive her network is because she's not getting a lot of traction right now with reaching out to people. She's admitted. Yeah, maybe I've had some conflict over the years and maybe now that's affecting those relationships. And that's, I think, a big lesson for a lot of people that, you know, we can't just abandon our networks. We really need to keep them active and we need to add value.

40:20It's not about just taking and it's not about abandoning, you know, people who are around us, like those former colleagues, former directors, people we went to school with, maybe people we met with in a class or we volunteered with. there's neighbors. I mean, there's so many connections. I actually do a lot of work with newcomers to Canada. Newcomers from other countries have very limited networks, right, in the community that they're settling in. But when I work with them, I say, you know what, your network is actually bigger than you think it is. Like reach out to people, like anybody that you know.

40:53Maybe you go to a gym. Those people are part of your network. Maybe you're taking a class. those people are part of your network. Like there's so many possibilities. And when we when we're genuine and we talk about what it is that we're looking for and the companies that we want to be part of and we talk about those things with other people, it delivers. Like I had I had one person. This is an interesting story. So I had this one individual. She dropped off her son at a street hockey game. So with a bunch of friends. And so when she dropped her son off, she started talking to the dad of one of her son's friends.

41:26And they were just, you know, talking. And so this the dad asked her, well, you know, what do you do professionally? She was looking for work. And she said, oh, I'm looking. And he said, oh, what are you looking for? I want to get into IT. Well, she didn't know it at the time. He was the chief information officer for a big tech company in Ottawa. And he said, well, we're actually hiring. Like, can you send me your resume? She did that. She got an interview from sending that resume and then she got the job from a street hockey game. So just randomly talking to people and letting them know what is it that you're interested in, what kind of companies especially do you want to be part of can really help you align.

42:06And that is engaging the network, like just talking, reaching out to people, having conversations, buying a coffee for them, adding value, sharing resources. All of those things go such a long way. And I'm willing to bet that that job and the opportunity for her landed at the right time because by the time these jobs get posted publicly, now it's thousands upon thousands of AI automated resumes. Oh, it's nuts. But every job search starts internally at the organization. Who can we move into this role? Who do we think is a good fit internally? Then it starts to bubble out. Oh, there's an opening.

42:44People at that job start talking. Hey, there's an opening at my company. Let me share it with my network. Then it goes public. So to be in the front door in that conversation with him probably allowed her to get a resume in before the thousands of other resumes and gave her a real opportunity at good odds in this job search. Yeah. You mentioned something really important there, AJ, about, you know, like the the AI spamming, right? Because, you know, there's a job that gets posted on LinkedIn and you just have to see within one hour, like 500 people have applied. And I mean, it's not uncommon now for more than a thousand people to apply for the exact same job.

43:22So this is something I think that's really important for anybody who's looking for work to understand today, which is a growing number of recruiters are abandoning LinkedIn and other job boards. And what are they abandoning it in favor of? Posting on the company website, because now they're sourcing talent that's really interested in that company. And in some cases, is they're not posting at all. They're only leveraging the network of that organization and their own networks, obviously, too. So if you're not part of that conversation, you're not getting the lead, you're not gonna get the job. Does that mean that that job isn't available?

43:58No, that job is very much available. It's just, you're not gonna see it anywhere publicly until you get in the inside. So I say to people, make a list of the top 20 organizations that you wanna be part of. And that does not mean that you're seeing positions posted. It just means that these are companies that believe what you believe in. They have values alignment. The mission is aligned. Maybe by doing some research, you realize this is an organization that I could really work with. I'd really be interested in. Then start to strategically think about within your network, who do you know that's connected in those organizations and get those kind of conversations.

44:36If you have to reach out cold, but that is strategy like at the very bottom. Right. Reach out to your first degree connections. If you don't have first degree connections, reach out to those second degree connections through your first degree connections. Make sure that you're getting conversations. Show that you're keen. Want to learn about the organization. And, you know, if you make a great impression, then chances are they will consider you for jobs as they come up. You brought up a point earlier that I also want to make, and I've seen this in my wife's career, especially, you know, there are job losses.

45:08There are situations where you leave a job and you find something else. And when we don't manage those relationships and the why I'm leaving conversation and we just walk away from those coworkers, we walk away from that role, even if we hated the culture and hated the company and really struggled with a lot of our coworkers. Yeah. Maintaining a positive relationship with them, letting them know what you appreciated about working with them, keeps them in your network. And I've seen my wife land consulting roles from ex-co-workers that she struggled with, like literally had conflict with when she was in the role, but knew that she was leaving and, you know, said, I'm not going to keep the conflict going.

45:52I'm not going to burn this bridge. Yeah, I'm going to celebrate what I took from learning with this person, working with this person, having this opportunity to work together. And that's turned into future work. And she's even had friends and college friends reach out to be like, how do you just always land on your feet in these situations? And it's in large part because she has nurtured those coworkers and invested in relationships with them. And I think it's unfortunate, especially when we hear from Gen Z that, you know, people don't want relationships with their coworkers. They like to keep things isolated.

46:25They just want to stay on Zoom, pop in for the meeting, pop off. When you're not investing in those relationships and then managing the why I'm leaving conversation. Oh, yes. You are burning those bridges. Oh, yes. Well, and AJ, you've probably seen some of those posts on LinkedIn, right? It's not a good look when somebody is commenting not in a positive way, right, about the employer that let them go. And I mean, business decisions are made every day. Right now we live in a time where companies are restructuring. There's like mergers and acquisitions, all of that. Business decisions do affect humans, like at a very profound level.

47:00There is shame and there's discouragement and there's frustration that goes with that. Anger as well, like we mentioned the grief earlier. there's also hope and opportunity that that comes with that as well so you know you mentioned something really important about those relationships from the place that you're leaving so stoking that fire with those individuals and yes letting them know what you really appreciated them that's really key but then the other part of that is you know when you're in an interview especially this is something I see a lot of people struggle with when they are leaving an organization and the interviewer asks, tell me why you're looking for opportunities right now.

47:42And some people, like they struggle. Maybe they are leaving a toxic environment and then they overshare. They're a little bit taken off guard and they share way too much. And then again, it's not a good look when you're throwing your past employer under the bus. So I say to individuals, like think strategically about what you're going to say in those situations. And you can tell your leave story. And I like to think of three parts that go with that. So one is do share the facts. So if you've been restructured, it is, of course, OK to say a business decision was made because of restructuring to eliminate my position.

48:17And now I'm looking for opportunities. That's the fact. But for somebody who is choosing to leave an organization, they can just say, you know, at this point in my career, I've really reflected on the kind of work I want to do and the organization I want to be part of. And this opportunity really aligns with those things. Can be really nicely phrased. But then part two is so important. Talk about the value that you offered in your last job or the job that you're leaving. So talk about something that you loved about your job. Talk about a result that you have obtained that you were really proud of.

48:51In this way, you're sharing your value. It shows that it's not a performance choice. It shows that it's more of alignment. And then when you connect the thing that you love or the result that you're proud of to the job that you're interviewing for, you've really moved people away from what's happened or what is happening and moving them to this is why you should hire me. In fact, when you answer that question, tell me why you're looking, answer it like the question is tell me why you should hire me. And that is just really going to be very impactful. It's going to resonate with people. introducing shark facial pro glow a first of its kind at-home facial pro level extraction removes impurities and dual temperature technology boosts radiance and deep puffs with both insta heat and insta chill technology treat yourself to a hydro-fueled glow in minutes and because shark facial pro glow fits in the palm of your hand you can get that luminous post spa glow anywhere visit sharkbeauty.com to learn more We all have that dream trip we've been wishing we could go on, but too often life, or usually price, gets in the way.

50:01That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60 % off hotels and up to 50 % off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today. Go to your happy price. And there's a frame that I want to point out that's so important, especially for those who are younger in our career. I think when we get into resume building and we get into this conversation on interviews, we think in skills and not outcomes.

50:36And there's a lot of work that I do with my clients when they're asking me to review their resume or they're thinking about making a career move. They will default to, well, I've trained really hard. I've become certified in these skills. I've become a master of this skill set. And they don't think about, well, what is the organizational impact that that skill that you have had in that role? Totally. And you need to be able to communicate that in the next interview, communicate that to your network, communicate that on LinkedIn and in your resume. Exactly. To actually fit that next role. Because skills, everyone with AI is touting right now.

51:12Yeah. Thousands found thousands of resumes are talking about skills. when you can point to outcomes that you had a hand in, that you led, that had a real impact at the organization, that is how you land on your feet. Exactly. I mean, you know, a number of my clients, especially if they're, you know, experienced professionals, maybe they're like mid or late career, it's very easy to kind of fall into the thinking of, well, my experience is just going to sell itself. Like my experience speaks for itself. Yeah, because of those certifications, those skills of things that you've done, but it's more about what you've achieved and what that value and impact is.

51:49So I like to say for individuals, especially, you know, when you're crafting your resume, each bullet should really showcase three things. You're going to think I like the number three because it really does fall into a lot of different things, right? But you do want each of those bullets on your resume and your LinkedIn profile to communicate what you did as a start. But how did you do it? The depth and complexity behind what it is that you did carries a lot of weight as well. And then what are those results and outcomes? You know, if you've, you know, developed a new process that has lived on for five years and has saved people time and money, then talk about, you know, what kind of time and money did you save and how did you actually get to that?

52:30And that depth is really going to speak to recruiters and hiring managers. It's also the front end work for an interview because in an interview, you know, the interviewers in the panel, they just don't want to know like a list of things that you did off your job description. They want to know, well, what was the value that you offered? What was that impact? Because if you offered value in your past roles, chances are you'll be able to offer that value to them. And they need to have a really good sense, especially in that interview, that you are going to be able to bring the value that they're looking for.

53:03You are going to be able to solve the challenges and the problems that they need help with. And so talk about those specifics. If you're not talking about specifics, you're telling anybody's story. You need to really own what is your story. On the specific point, and this has come up a number of times with my coaching clients, unfortunately, is they become very skilled in their role and oftentimes very industry specific. And then if they're looking to reinvent themselves or they have to make a pivot, that bullet on their resume is full of garble and jargon that on the interview, the person who's looking at these resumes can't really make sense of.

53:44No. So one thing that I say when you're looking at your resume is go through every bullet, talk it out with someone and let them. Do they understand what that bullet is? Do they fully grasp what you're trying to say with that arc that you're building and recognize that you are actually planting the seeds for the interview? So every one of those bullets needs a clear story that you are prepared to go deep in that allows the person interviewing you to see how do you think? It's not just the skills, the credentials, the GPA, where you worked before, but how do you think in this role? Because problem solving is what everyone is hiring for right now.

54:20The skills are being replaced with AI, as we know. So you have to be able to show in your resume and in the interview how you think and solve problems. and those problems can't be so specific that only one company in an industry could hire for it. It has to speak to a broader audience. It totally does. You know, and, you know, I'm going to share something that might be surprising right now, which is, you know, you can actually leverage AI, like whether it's ChatGPT or whatever it is that you use, to be your thinking partner for creating those accomplishment statements on your resume. Now, I say thinking partner very intentionally.

54:57You do not want AI to write it. Like you've probably seen resumes, right, AJ, that have been written by like any form of AI. It just strips away the value. It's too high level. So, you know, you can dictate everything to do with one particular achievement. What did you do? What were all the different things that you did in order to solve that problem? And what was the outcome? And then just simply ask ChatGPT, like create an achievement statement that includes the what, the how, and I say the so what, which is the results and the outcomes. in a way that yet doesn't rely on the jargon and those acronyms and make sure that the value and impact is there.

55:34Do that as a starting point and then adjust it, obviously customize it. But that can actually give people a running start if they really struggle with building that out. And you're absolutely right. Like in an interview, you have to be able to talk to those very specific examples. Those are achievements, things that you're proud of, and make sure that it can be understood by other people. Like when you write your resume, give it to a few people that will give you feedback. You don't just want to give it to people. Sometimes a spouse or a partner or even a really good friend will say, oh, yeah, that's great.

56:05That's not very helpful. Like give it to somebody who will be somewhat critical in a constructive way and that will just make it stronger. Even better, run your resume when it's done through ChatGPT against a job posting and say, chat, pretend like you are a recruiter for this job. What is missing in my resume that I need to add in in order for me to get an interview? That can be really impactful, too, because there could be things that need to be added in or changed in your resume in order to be seen more. But, you know, again, don't rely just on that resume. You are one of thousands of people.

56:42Get that endorsement. Make sure that people are rooting for you and that they're giving an endorsement for you. Job posting is the lock. Your resume is the key. You have to look at it. At this point, it's table stakes. You should not just have one resume and spray and pray. It is table stakes to custom tailor your resume to fit that job posting. Everything that is in that job posting has to tie back to some outcome achievement in your current role that you can speak to. Even if it's a bit of a stretch, the role you're applying for might be senior to where you're at. We want to make sure that if they took the time to put it in the posting, they've recognized that this is important enough to find candidates around it.

57:26We need to be able to speak to either how we got there or how we're getting there. Yeah, for sure. So if you're talking, I like that lock and key kind of, you know, methodology. So if we want to think about the golden key, this is like, you know, the standard is, yes, you want to make sure that your resume aligns to that job, but the golden part of it is then reach out to your network and get somebody to notice your resume. So I'm going to give you a story here to show how this works. One of my clients I just worked with in the summer, he had applied for a job at a large national organization in Canada, probably one of the biggest.

58:05And so he applied online. At the time, because we were working together, I said, remember your network, who in your network might know somebody that, you know, you can make a connection with. So he had applied online and then he also reached out to, you know, he saw on LinkedIn, yes, I know somebody who works on the inside. I'm going to reach out to this person and see if maybe they can make a connection for me. Two days after he applied online, he got the rejection notice saying, sorry, we're, you know, end of the road for you basically. But because he reached out to his network, he found somebody that actually knew the hiring manager.

58:39Well, then this individual in his network made a connection with the hiring manager. And now he had a conversation with the hiring manager. But a week after he got that rejection, standard rejection notice from HR, he got another email inviting him for an interview for the exact same job that he was rejected for. He went for one interview, went for two, went for four interviews. This was a big company that a very layered process. He got the job and he loves working there. It is totally an organization that believes what he believes in. So had he not reached out to his network to get his resume noticed, it would have been the end of the line for him.

59:18He got the rejection notice. That's it. But because he also engaged those relationships, that was the key, that golden key that really unlocked that job for him. And so I say to people, never stop at just applying online. Really make sure, is there anybody in your network, even those secondary connections that can actually, you know, open the door for you. Yeah. If they could courier your resume to the hiring manager, if they could say, hey, you may have made a mistake or your AI that was screening all these resumes may have missed an amazing candidate. Because let's be honest, there's thousands of resumes coming in.

59:52Of course, they're using automation to also screen them to try to get to a sensible number they could manage. Yeah. And what I really think is important here is closing the loop. So don't just stop at the rejection. You got the rejection and so many people, I understand it. It stings. It's hard. It's hard. But do whatever you can to get the feedback as to why you were rejected. Hey, just so I know for next interview, was there something? And they may not answer. Or ask the recruiter, hey, I'm curious, who did they end up going with? What was the candidate they went with? And what did they have that I was missing?

1:00:30Your resume, again, the lock and key, it's a living, breathing, iterative process. And if you found yourself in the job search for a very long time firing the same resume, you haven't closed the loop on that feedback to make it more impactful. Exactly. And you know, that's a very important point. And it's one that a lot of job seekers who might be listening to this might be thinking, but I do this and I don't hear from anybody, which is also true because recruiters and hiring managers, HR departments, because so many people are applying for jobs right now, it can be hard to hear back from somebody like they're basically keeping their head above water.

1:01:09Like they're getting so many, so many messages. But I always say try, like you just never know until you ask. So yeah, maybe you ask 10 companies that screen you out and you don't hear from any of them, but maybe on the 11th, you hear from somebody and they do give you some good feedback back to if you don't ask, you don't get like you, It is really important to get that feedback, not just at the resume level, but also when you interview. So if you interview, whether it's a screening interview or you go through that process and you're one of two and you're second and you're not chosen, always ask for feedback.

1:01:44What is it, like you said, that the other candidate has that I don't have? What skills maybe do I need to develop that will make me a successful candidate if I applied for this job again at some point in the future? Or maybe there's some clues in the interview. Maybe you didn't come across as very confident. You didn't give specific examples. Like, I think a lot of people think that their interviewing is a lot better than it actually is. I remember one of my very first interview clients, like it was today, and it was 10 years ago. And we did a mock interview. And I said after to him, like, you know, what did you feel worked really well in that process?

1:02:20And he said, well, I answered all the questions. And he did. He had an answer for every question. But when we unpacked all of his answers, he was talking in generalities. He was talking very high level. He didn't give any results and outcomes. And he sure never gave a really specific example. There could be clues in the interviewing. I mean, I do interview coaching. I mean, that is sometimes the one thing. It just pays dividends. It's an investment, but it's an investment that pays off because you can practice in a safe environment, work through questions that you are very likely to get for that specific interview.

1:02:57Don't just go online and say, well, what are the general interview questions? Like, no, actually be prepared for the ones that are aligned with the job posting and make sure that you are prepared to give not only specific examples, give some insight into judgment. Why did you make the decision that you made? Those are going to be things that really elevate your responses compared to somebody else who doesn't do that. I know it's easy right now to go to ChatGPT and say, OK, do a mock interview and you type in or you voice chat with ChatGPT. But it is so much different to have a coach or a friend or a peer or a colleague be the person actually going through the interview with another human because it is far different to be talking to AI and then show up for that interview in the moment that it counts and feel like you're prepared.

1:03:43Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've worked with some people, AJ, who have been paralyzed by anxiety over interviews. And I mean, the whole process is like it is anxiety producing, right? You might be in front of a panel. If it's a virtual interview, you don't get a chance to meet people like what we're doing here. Right. We're in person. Let's be honest. At this point, a lot of us are finding ourselves on our third interview, our fourth interview to get the job. The process has become so arduous just to sort through candidates that I've talked to clients who are like, well, yeah, I did a group interview.

1:04:16I talked to my potential boss and I have to talk to my potential boss's boss. So the stakes feel higher and higher as you go through the interview process. So it's natural that you're going to feel anxiety. Oh, for sure. But, you know, like, you know, when you're working with somebody one on one, it gives you the chance to build that confidence, not only just in terms of being able to to talk to somebody and articulate those answers, but it's it's being prepared. Like I do have some people that I've worked with and I say, you know, tell me what you do to prepare for this interview. And there's a fair number of people who kind of go in and they're winging it like they look at the job description, they familiarize themselves with their resume.

1:04:52but they're not really thinking about what those specific examples are that they can bring forward. So I say to people like, yeah, use chat GPT to generate questions that you should be prepared for, for the interview. And don't just leave it open-ended. Say, generate some knowledge questions, general questions, situational, like hypothetical questions and behavioral questions. And then now do the hard work to take all of your like bank of specific examples, things that you've done over your career and align those specific examples to those questions. Even if you do like the basic groundwork and take a look at the themes in a job posting.

1:05:30So a theme might be client service, project management, team leadership, for example. Think about like two, maybe even three specific examples that line with each of those themes. Now you can be really agile in the interview and you can kind of think to yourself, oh yeah, like that's a team leadership question. Remember those three examples. Pick the best one. Oh, yeah, that's a project management question. Pick the best example. Interviewers want to hear proof and evidence. And I even take it one step further and I'll coach my clients to give an example even when an example is not asked for. So an example of a question might be, describe how you build relationships with external stakeholders.

1:06:12So describe your approach, but then isolate a time when you had to build an example with an external stakeholder. Give like the situation, all of your actions, those outcomes. Now you're giving proof and evidence, even though they weren't asking for it. And I think that trips up a lot of us when we're starting out in our career, we're looking to move into leadership where we might not have that specific example that speaks directly to leading a team, for example. And it's so important if that's where you see your career, if we ask those five questions and we think about what our career is and we know we want to be a leader, to look for other opportunities, whether in your career or outside of your career, to lead volunteers at church, to lead a team, to set up an initiative, to set up a symposium for AI and lead a group of volunteers at work.

1:07:01Look for those opportunities if in your seat right now you're not getting them so that you're always preparing for that future interview. It's so much easier to take a step back, look at where your career is and where you want it to go. Talk to people who are a few levels ahead of you and how did they get there? What were they doing? What was their chutes and ladders to get to that situation? And then think about, OK, what are the experiences I need to have, even if I'm not getting them currently in my role, that will allow me on that next interview to shine in these areas? Yeah. I mean, what we're talking about now is really that future career development.

1:07:38And, you know, oftentimes leaders will allot, I don't know, five minutes at the end of a performance review and they'll say, tell me what you want to do as a next step. Tell me what you want to do with the next like two to five years of your career. But five minutes for that kind of conversation is not really a lot. So I'll actually say to people, like take the initiative, like book time with your leader that is just focused on career development outside of that annual performance review. Book 30 minutes, book an hour, but come prepared to the conversation. So do that reflection, like do the reflection on the five questions that we talked about earlier, especially the work that energizes you and the work that drains you because it can help you pinpoint what are those things happening within the organization that really align with maybe some skills that you want to develop, some work that you want to do.

1:08:27And now you can take the lead with your leader and ask for those opportunities. So maybe you need your leader to introduce you to somebody within the organization just to learn more about what they're doing. Maybe you can offer your assistance with your leader and say, can I take anything off of your desk? Can I lead this project? Can I be part of this meeting. When we ask for what we need, we have a much better chance of being able to receive that. We're showing our leader that we're really keen. I mean, a leader's responsibility is to support your career development, but your leader doesn't drive it.

1:09:00And, you know, right now people are leaving organizations because they say, well, there were no opportunities for me to get to to grow my career. Well, my question to them is, did you ask? Did you have a conversation? if we don't have the conversation. When we wait till that review, and we're gonna be airing this episode pretty early in the year, you've probably had your annual review, maybe in that two, three, five minute section, you heard some things that you weren't aware of as some gaps, or maybe you weren't prepared as to what to talk about. Schedule another meeting to follow up on that.

1:09:32You said something in my performance review. We only had a few minutes at the end to talk about my future. I wanna go a little deeper on that. Sure. And do it now, Because the other thing that I found with clients who find themselves flat footed and a little panicked is their leader leaves. And they've put all of their hopes on riding that coattail. I built a great relationship with this leader. I have an amazing relationship with my boss. What happens when they leave? Have you cultivated any other relationships in the organization? Because guess what? When they leave and someone completely external gets replaced, you're starting from zero.

1:10:08Oh, yes. And you don't want to be in that role because that person might start looking, well, who's actually a better fit for me to work with? Can I bring someone from my past role into your seat? And that does happen. And it's one of the reasons clients end up working with me is they've found themselves in this position of like, I have not cultivated relationships in my role. I've focused on making my boss happy, getting great performance reviews, nurturing that relationship. And now those coattails have disappeared. Exactly. I mean, you know, we can expand this even one step further and say what we're talking about here, that relationship with a leader can also be brought into how you evaluate opportunities for fit.

1:10:49So I've worked with people that say, but I really want this job because, you know, I worked with this person before and like we worked really well together. And I say that's great. I mean, if I think of the three keys to career fulfillment, one is the work that gives you energy, two is the organization, the leader, the team, and three are the non-negotiables. When all those three things can be honored, you are going to be fulfilled in your career. So definitely the leader relationship is part of it. So I'll say, what if we take that leader relationship out, though? Let's say you accept this opportunity and two months down the road, your boss finds another job somewhere else.

1:11:26Are you still going to feel the same about the organization? Are you still going to feel the same about your work? And then people start to think, oh, yeah, maybe that's a slippery slope. So, yeah, you really need to cultivate those relationships. I mean, even when you're starting a new job, I actually work with people to build their onboarding plan for themselves before they start a job. I mean, oftentimes we kind of defer to the organization. Oh, yeah, they're going to have an orientation program. Yes, they probably will. But what do you need for yourself? I mean, chances are this next new job is not your first new job ever.

1:12:01So if you take a step back and hit that pause button, you can reflect and think, what do I need when I start a new job? What do I need in the first 30 days, 60 days, 90 days? And relationships are key to giving yourself, like kind of setting yourself on the runway of success. Yes, learning the work and the business and all of what you need to do in your job. Yes, that's important. But building the relationships starts with the very first person. It starts with your boss. It starts with your colleagues. It starts with people you're going to be interfacing with. Learn about them. Learn about their work.

1:12:34Learn about what energizes them. You want to learn about them as people and then just continue to build those relationships as you go along. And I think that's ongoing. One of my clients right now, he's in a fast-paced startup. And he has been in the role about a year and he came from a very classic finance background. His previous role was excited to join a startup and get some more autonomy. And what he realized in a startup is there's just a lot of change, a lot of people moving in and out of roles, moving to entirely different departments, just leaving. And he's now recognized, oh, wow, this is a 12 month a year process.

1:13:11I just can't get in the role, nurture those relationships in the beginning and my onboarding and then just hope that it cultivates a garden for the rest of my career. I have to constantly be interacting with the new people who are joining, finding these these team members that I would be interfacing with and who are their managers and introducing myself, making sure that this cultivation of relationships in your role is ongoing. Not just when you start your job, not just at the performance review, but it's something you're investing in for the full 12 months a year. It totally is. Because when they go spread out, start a new venture, land in a new role, you want to be top of mind so that you have those weak ties to turn to if you do suffer a job loss.

1:13:52Exactly. You know, and as we're talking about this, AJ, you know, listeners might think that sounds really tiring, actually, you know, like there's a lot of energy that goes in it. I mean, the answer is, yes, it does require a lot of energy. But, you know, if I were to ask, you know, do you believe in your career? Do you want to advance your career? Do you want to go in and do other things? Do you always want to be, you know, like driving the bus in your career development? Well, the answer is probably yes, you know. So it is going to take some work. So, you know, we can kind of think of your career development.

1:14:20And, you know, I like that you that you're talking about, like, making this like a 365 day a year kind of activity, like set yourself a career goal even every month of the year, or at the very minimum, every quarter. So maybe this quarter, you want to be able to be involved in this project, or maybe the next quarter, you want to establish some new relationships, like really branch out from what it is that you're doing and really stretch yourself a little bit. Like whatever those goals are, keep that going. A lot of people don't pay attention to their career at all. Like they do the work and, you know, check the boxes.

1:14:56But then, you know, maybe you hit a plateau and you're not sure, you know, like there's no growth from there. What are you going to do? There are choices in every situation. And for some people, they choose to stick it out even though they've lost the energy for their work or they're misaligned with the organization. We talked earlier about how this can affect relationships. And, you know, the stress from, you know, when you're not satisfied in your career or especially a job loss, it affects not only you, it affects the people around you. Yeah, your friends, your family. Everybody. So, you know, for the health of you and the people around you, you know, continue to stoke those fires.

1:15:34Like, you know, continue to develop skills, build new relationships, think several steps ahead. Where is it that you'd like to go? even if you're nearing the end of your career. I mean, I've had some people come to me, AJ, and they say, is it too late for me to start a new chapter? And I have one client, he's 71 right now. So he sold his business, but he's not done working yet. He just knew he didn't want to be the owner of his business anymore. So we're working on a job search strategy. He's got like a bucket load of transferable skills, but he's not ready to stop working. So it's never too late.

1:16:08It's never too to start something new, start a business, leave a business, you know, change from being a leader to an individual contributor, any of those things. So long as you're aligned to those three keys of career fulfillment that we've talked about, are you doing work that energizes you? Are you working with an organization that, when I say believes what you believe in, like demonstrating the values to employees, clients, stakeholders, anybody, and are your non-negotiables at this stage in your life and career being met. My non-negotiables when I was in my 20s are definitely different than when I'm in my 50s.

1:16:44So making sure that your career choices really align with the changes in your life, your career choices are going to change. And thinking about your future. I have a family now. What I want to do in my 20s and what that work-life balance is is different than what it is for me now. And many of us don't really think about that. And I want to give a hack as we wrap here that I think, and it's helped a client recently, we often recognize that visibility is important in our career and we find ourselves siloed in a department. Maybe we don't interface much with other departments. Maybe the people that could help our career are outside of our immediate circle.

1:17:24And we say networking, we say cultivate relationships. But for a lot of people listening, they go, how exactly do I do that with someone who's in a totally different department, who's working on something else, who's super busy. And the one thing that I always say is find the one skill that they are just incredible at, the one attribute they have, the one thing that they bring to the table and appreciate them on that. Wow. Your project management on this project that was shared in the town hall has been incredible. What's been the most impactful thing for you in your career to develop that skill?

1:17:55That one question, what's been the most impactful on communication, AI, project management, leadership, management. You ask that of a leader in your organization who maybe you don't interface with and maybe your department doesn't have a lot of crosstalk with and you're going to build an ally. You're going to get a great tip, a great book, a great podcast interview and the seeds of that connection, that relationship that's going to pay dividends throughout your career. Absolutely. And we often sit on these moments of appreciation. We recognize that in someone else. We see them as, wow, that's a skill that I really desire.

1:18:30That's a skill that I would love to have. And we think, well, they're super busy. I don't know how I can interact with them. And that little bit of appreciation and the simple ask of like, what was most impactful for that development in your career? Yeah. Opens relationships, opportunities to learn skills. Absolutely. And resources that you might not currently be getting from your current role or leadership or department. Yeah. Yeah, well, you're highlighting something that I think is really key to making networking conversations work, which is people love talking about themselves, right? I mean, you know, as a host, like people love talking about themselves.

1:19:05So when you ask some really insightful, thoughtfully created questions like the one that you just shared, people are generally speaking more than happy to share their insights, their lessons learned, talk about their path, like any of those things. But we need to ask the question. And that's where, you know, a number of people get it backwards with these like outreach kind of conversations is they feel, oh, I need to sell myself. What do I need to share about myself? And I say, yes, you are going to have a time to share about yourself. Like in any conversation, the other person will say like enough about me, like tell me about you.

1:19:40You need to be prepared to share that. But you lead with the questions that will like unlock those insights and tap into that person's expertise. and who doesn't want to be sought after for things that they know or things that they do well. People are generally speaking, really happy to share about those. Yeah. And let's be honest, sell yourself on your LinkedIn. That's what you did before you came on. That's what I did with you. Like that is what we do as busy leaders at high value people. If we recognize that there's an opportunity to connect, we immediately go see what's online. That's where the selling happens.

1:20:14You don't need to sell in the pitch. You don't need to sell in the question. You don't need to sell yourself in person. Let your LinkedIn, your online profile speak to that and then come with that insight and go deeper in the conversation. And building these relationships is going to be a lot easier and a lot more impactful on your career. Absolutely. Well, and the biggest mistake that I see when we're talking about LinkedIn is people just like copy and paste from their resume. So they have resume statements that don't showcase any results. They have a headline that's really like a job title in their organization, which is what LinkedIn defaults to, you know, fair enough.

1:20:48And their about section is just a copy and paste from the summary of their resume. Well, that doesn't connect to the reader. Like you need to be able to speak in your profile in a way that connects to the reader. So tell a story. Like LinkedIn is all about storytelling. So create a headline that speaks to your value. And if people like your headline, they're going to read your about section. So write your about section using the personal pronoun I liberally. Talk about the work that you love doing. Talk about how you even got attracted to that work. Tell the story of your career and how it relates to what you're doing now.

1:21:25Kind of like if we were having a coffee and a conversation and you asked me, like, tell me, you know, tell me about yourself. How did you get into coaching? Why do you love coaching? So my LinkedIn profile is written with that perspective in mind. And when you bring all of those elements together, you're actually starting to form a relationship with the reader and then they want to reach out. They want to have the conversation to learn more about you. Absolutely. I think that's a great point to wrap on. I know for a lot of us, we might not feel fulfilled in our career. And I love that in this conversation, we started with the five questions to ask ourselves.

1:21:59Absolutely. So that we can actually start to get alignment. And I think everything we touched on today has been really strategic in our thinking. And I think that's really important to cultivate the career growth that we're all after. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I liken like exploring new career paths and especially looking for work, kind of like going on vacation, although not as much fun, AJ. We'll give it that. I was going to say, we take different vacations. Yeah. So the elements that are common, of course, is if you're going on vacation, you need to have a destination. Well, if you're looking for new work, you need to have a career target.

1:22:32You can't be open to like 30 different possibilities. You need to really stream it down. But the other element, you're going on vacation, you need to have a plan. Chances are you're not going to show up in Rome with no accommodations, no tickets to attractions, none of that. Although I do remember doing that in my 20s, but I wouldn't do that now. But when you're looking for new work, you have to have a plan. And, you know, a plan includes like looking online in the right places, talking to recruiters, headhunters. They hold the bag on really interesting opportunities. The biggest part of a job search plan is networking, doing that research through conversation, having those outreach conversations with a target and a plan.

1:23:11you're going to find that energizing work for those companies that believe what you believe in. That's my why. That's why I coach. I believe everybody is entitled and deserves that. And it's so rewarding for me to see somebody find something where they are truly aligned in their purpose. Well, thank you for joining us today. Where can our audience find out more about the book and your coaching? Absolutely. So my book is Cultivating Career Growth, Navigating Transitions to Purpose, can be found on Amazon. I'm giving your listeners two freebies today, actually. One is a free chapter to the book, so you can try before you buy through my website, mschafercoaching.ca.

1:23:45The other freebie is something that I call my career-focused framework. It's a free download. It can allow you to reflect on those five questions and more. It's a fillable PDF. It just gives you a chance to hit the pause button. There's a chapter in my book exactly about that. Do the reflection on where things are at in your career right now, and that can align yourself for your future roles and organizations. Thank you again. Thank you so much for having me.

1:24:40No subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the fridge for tip-off with a variety of non-alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com. Your beer, fit for all times.