The Myth Of Normal & The Trauma We Acquire | Gabor Maté

30:48and in her actual life she was abused as a child, abused as an adult. And so we create these avatars that have nothing to do with the actual real person. And we attach ourselves to it and they become our ideals. And there's an escapism tied to all of this. If culture is toxic, if we're overworked, if we're detached from our loved ones, our family members, our children, well then it's easiest in that suffering to escape to the Super Bowl or the celebrity or whatever is the latest entertainment piece that's being pushed by the mainstream media. And in a lot of ways, they're just amplifying what we're psychologically motivated to engage with, the salacious, the over-the-top nature.

31:30Well, absolutely. And look, not to put myself above any of this, like when I'm tired and stressed, instead of actually taking care of myself, my tendency may be to go on YouTube and watch the latest sports highlights or the Rolling Stones singing, give me shelter for the 10 ,000th time. I've been there. Well, that's okay. But it's not okay when it takes my mind over. I'm no longer even conscious that I'm doing it. I'm just flipping from one thing to the next. Then I say, where the hell has this hour gone by? I could have been in bed resting, could have taken a hot bath, could have meditated. So the blandishments of the culture to escape from ourselves are ever-present and very powerful.

32:09Again, as I pointed in this book, a lot of that need to escape comes from emotional pain. Why do we have to escape? Because we're in pain. And a lot of that pain is originated in childhood and childhood trauma. And this is a highly traumatizing society that hurts a lot of people. And then it builds entire industries on helping people escape from the pain of the trauma that society imposed on them. It works beautifully. Well, part of that celebrity you touched on earlier is also the dramatization of trauma, the bringing forward of trauma. Trauma now is part of the popular zeitgeist. Everyone is using it in their marketing.

32:52I went through trauma. I have trauma. So from your perspective, I think it's best to at least help our audience get a deeper understanding since they're inundated with this version of trauma that's publicly out there. What is the trauma that you're discussing? How do we define it? And how do we actually start to heal from it instead of escaping from it? Because that is clearly not working. Yeah. So the word trauma is used a lot these days. On the one hand, on the other hand, it's not used nearly enough. It's used in a trivial kind of way as any kind of an upset. You know, I'm on a picnic on Sunday and it rained.

33:30I was traumatized. No, you weren't. You were just disappointed. You know, went to a movie last night and it was traumatic. No, it wasn't. It was just upsetting. So the word is used too trivially and too promiscuously on the one hand. On the other hand, where it matters, it's not used hardly enough at all. Where is it not used? In the medical profession. The average physician doesn't get a single lecture on trauma. And yet, scientifically, trauma underlies a lot of chronic illness like rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, often malignancy. certainly all mental health conditions. There's a British psychologist who pointed out that the statistical link between childhood misfortune and adult mental health challenges is as well established as the link between smoking and lung cancer.

34:19But you go to the average physician with depression, anxiety, ADHD, OCD, whatever you got, nobody's going to ask you about childhood trauma. They don't even know how to ask. They haven't studied the links, let alone if you go there with rheumatoid arthritis or multiple sclerosis, despite all the studies linking childhood trauma, adult stress, to all these different conditions. So that's the place where it's not used at all, is the medical profession, hardly at all, except in a narrow sense of what they call PTSD. It's not used in the schools. So a lot of the kids that are so-called misbehaving, acting out, what they're actually acting out is their trauma.

34:57Teachers are not trained to recognize that. For the most part, they're trained to control and punish behaviors, which is further traumatizing the child, despite all the scientific literature linking childhood dysfunction and misbehaviors to traumatic circumstances. Where it's also not used is in the courts. Most of the people in jail have suffered significant trauma. The average lawyer, judge, prosecutor, correctional officer never gets a single lecture on trauma in their education. So on the one hand, yes, we can use it too loosely. On the other hand, where it matters, we don't use it at all.

35:39So what is trauma? Trauma is a wound. That's what it means. Trauma literally means a wound, psychological wound that hasn't healed. And those psychological wounds, the Greek meaning, the Greek word for wound is trauma. That's the meaning of the word. And as long as the trauma is unhealed, it's going to affect our behavior just as unhealed physical wounds will affect our behavior. We'll be more defensive, more scared, more limited, more constricted, perhaps more defensively aggressive to keep ourselves from being re-wounded again. But the point is that these psychological wounds incurred early in childhood, unless they're understood, seen, and healed, they can create a lot of problems in relationships.

36:23but most of the problems in couples in a couple situation is that one set of traumas is competing with another set of traumas and the two people are not even present there's two pasts fighting with each other and people don't even realize that and so it shows up in how you relate to work for example to workaholism it shows up in my case it shows up in your relationship as it showed up in my marriage It shows up how you treat your kids. It shows up often in your politics, for that matter. And yet, we're not really talking about it in a deep way. So on the other hand, we trivialize it. On the other hand, we actually ignore it.

37:09Is it safe to say that everyone has trauma that they need to resolve? Well, it's probably safe to say that, although I might be biased, but I have yet to meet too many. you know no there are degrees of trauma there's degrees of wounding right it's a continuum certainly in my work as a physician or providing therapy to people i don't meet people who haven't been traumatized because why would they come to me but i also know that if you look at what people are reading so a best-selling book for in the new york times for about 250 weeks now has been in Bessel van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score, which is a fairly dense, it's very eloquent, but it's also deeply scientific.

37:53Not an easy read necessarily, but it's a big bestseller. My book, The Myth of Normal, has been a New York Times bestsellers for 18 weeks now. Well, another book called What Happened to You by a wonderful neuroscientist, psychiatrist, physician called Bruce Perry, written with Oprah, What Happened to You? there's been another 40, 50 weeks on New York Times bestseller since its publication. What does that tell you? It means that people are actually interested and they're looking for this information because they need it. That means there's a lot of people out there. Then you have books like Matthew Perry's recent book, Friends, Lovers, and whatever it was called.

38:33Well, he was an addict based on trauma. Pamela Anderson's recent book, she was a trauma-tossed child prince harry's recent book spare so much childhood trauma and his childhood so there's this book called uh i'm glad my mother died a big bestseller these are all about trauma the public wants to know it and to understand it in fact in that sense the public is way ahead of the professionals so johnny touched on one of the a's in in healing that you discussed in the book recognizing that we all may have encountered trauma We have unreconciled, unhealed wounds that are now impacting our behaviors.

39:13They're impacting our relationships. They're impacting our propensity for chronic illness. How do we start to recognize and move forward the healing process from all of this trauma we may have sustained? Usually it's, as you say, AJ, it begins with some kind of suffering, a divorce, your partner or cheating on you, an illness, loss of a friendship, addiction, mental health challenges of some kind. So usually there's some suffering that makes us want to say, well, why is this happening? So that's the first question. You know, unfortunately, when most people go to physicians, nobody guides them to the essential source of their suffering.

39:57They'll be given a diagnosis maybe, but nobody's gonna say, you know, this diagnosis doesn't really explain anything. It describes it, but it doesn't explain it. Take an example. I often use depression. So somebody's mood is low and they have poor sleep and they're socially isolating. So the doctor says, oh, your mood is low and you're isolating socially because you're depressed. And you can say, well, how do you know I'm depressed? Because you're socially isolating and your mood is low. But why is my mood low and why am I socializing because you're depressed. How do you know that I'm depressed?

40:35So these diagnoses, they don't explain anything. They describe them, but that's where most of medicine stops. Is it some description, but not an actual explanation. Even if there's inflammation in your body, such as there is in autoimmune disease, like multiple sclerosis or rheumatoid arthritis, why is there inflammation? And now you have to look at that person's life. what inflames what causes inflammation in the body stress and trauma cause inflammation in the body as the certain chemical agents and so on and so forth so the diagnosis don't explain very much they describe them but so people usually begin on this journey by some kind of suffering and then they have to ask themselves well why am i suffering and then i would ask them what do you believe about yourself?

41:23What do you believe about your life? What stresses might you be generating for yourself without even meaning to or knowing that you are? What extent are you in touch with your needs? What happened to you in childhood? What do you believe about the world? All these questions pertain to your physiology because scientifically you can't serpate the mind from the body and therefore your emotions and your unconscious beliefs that have a lot to do with your physiology. So how do people do that? Well, they go see a therapist, they read any number of books, including mine. They go on YouTube and they listen to, I mean, in my case, there's dozens of my talks and interviews on YouTube.

42:12Other people, I'm not the only one. No, I'm saying I'm the best one. I'm just saying I'm one of the people out there whose work is very available out there, you start looking into it. You start talking to your family. What happened? If you're talking to your family, you start asking questions and you don't assume that there's something intrinsically wrong with you. I just conducted a workshop this weekend called Your Illness Tells a Story. And so your illness tells a story. And what is the story that my illness tells? That's the question. It's fascinating because most of Western medicine in is around treating the symptoms and not focusing on any of these underlying beliefs that you have that are tied to wounds that lead to behaviors that lead to you choosing the addiction, choosing the unhealthy patterns, and choosing things that don't necessarily support your full mental and emotional and physical health.

43:07When we look at recognizing, so there's this acceptance. This happened to me. One of the A's is a little counterintuitive. And we've talked a little bit on the show about anger, but it's counterintuitive for many in our audience because we're taught from, as you said earlier in an example, from a young age that anger is bad. As a child, we're disciplined for feeling anger. We repress our anger. It doesn't make for civil society if we're angry. We look at the protests going on in Paris and they're not looked upon kindly. So anger is often something that we try to avoid, but you argue it's something that can be healing.

43:41Well, yeah. So there's only one phrase that you then quibble with when you say you choose addiction and you choose, nobody chooses these things. I've worked with the most densely addicted population in North America, here in Vancouver's downtown east side, that there's no area in North America like the cities downtown east side. People are addicted to heroin, fentanyl, cocaine, crystal meth, alcohol, nicotine, whatever you care the name. nobody chooses to be an addict. They're trying to run away from intense pain rooted in trauma. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I'm gonna choose unhealthy lifestyle.

44:21I'm gonna choose to be an addict. So these aren't choices. They're choices only on the unconscious level. So I will make that distinction, okay? Now in terms of anger, nobody chooses to repress anger either. Have you ever met a one day old baby that doesn't know how to get angry? try feeding it something it doesn't want to eat you're going to find out what anger is about okay anger is not unhealthy our brains are wired for anger we have a circuitry in our brain for anger we share that with other mammals why but look if i were to um enter your space right now your physical space i mean we're far away from each other but if i weren't in your physical space or your emotional space by being insulting to you, what would be a response on your part?

45:13Anger. Yeah. Would that be healthy or not? You'd be saying, you're in my space, get out. Or I will not have you talk to me that way. Stop it. Is that good or bad? Well, it's certainly good that you're protecting yourself and anger is the emotion that allows us to protect ourself. And I guess the real question is what we allow anger to allow us to do. Well, here's the point. There's healthy anger, such as what I've just talked about, which is just a boundary protection. It's not evil to hurt somebody else. It's just all animals do it. They'll generate an anger response. You've entered their space.

45:58Get out. It's healthy. It's a boundary defense. You can't live without it. When you get the message that your anger is not acceptable to your parents and you repress it, now you have lost your boundary defense. Now you're the kid who's going to get bullied. The bully can always tell. It's not random who gets bullied. Kids who get randomly bullied are the kids with no boundary protection. The kids who are bullied are the ones who actually feel very weak inside and they have to make themselves more powerful by dominating somebody else. something happened to both the bully and the bullied kid to create that dynamic so healthy anger is just a boundary defense then there's unhealthy anger that's when we trigger it into a reaction by some unhealed wound from the past so um i'm walking towards you in the street and i'm thinking about something and i'm looking at you in a certain way and you get offended Hey, you're disrespecting me.

47:03I didn't even know that you were there. Never mind, I don't know you. But then you go into a rage. Or we do this in a relationship, like my wife might disappoint me somehow and I go into a rage. That's not healthy anger. That's unhealthy anger. So anger is basically three resolutions. The expression of healthy anger, which is in the moment, it's a boundary defense. Once you express it, it's done its job, it dissipates, it's no longer necessary, just an emotion that's there to protect you. Or there's the repression of anger, which can, by the way, what do we call depression? What's depression? What does it mean to depress something?

47:45It means to push it down. What do we push down in depression? Our emotions. Why do we push down our emotions? Because the environment couldn't accept them. So we pushed on our healthy anger, we pushed on everything, we become flat. So there's the repression of healthy anger, which can lead to autoimmune disease and depression and so on and so forth. Then there's unhealthy anger, which is rage, a reaction triggered in the present by something that resembles the past. And you thinking you're reacting to the present when you're reacting to the past, to this unhealed wound. and that's toxic to you and to the people receiving it.

48:28When I had that unhealthy anger, that was toxic to my children and very hard on my marriage. So there is that unhealthy anger. By the way, in the aftermath of a rage episode, your risk of a heart attack or a stroke doubles for the next two hours because your blood vessels constrict, clotting factors go up and your blood pressure goes on. So there's healthy anger, there's the repression of healthy anger, and then there's unhealthy anger. And when people talk about anger, it's usually the last one that they're talking about. So what role does agency play in our healing? Because oftentimes we encounter people around us who are suffering, and part of that suffering includes feeling like the victim and feeling like everything is out to get them and this trauma is overwhelming.

49:22The belief that everybody's out to get you is not false, but it's a memory. It's a memory, implicit memory of when you're small and helpless and you're being hurt and there's no way there to help you. So you perceive the world as a hostile, dangerous place. But early trauma actually shapes the way we see the world. So if I said to you that there was a man who said that the world is a dangerous place, everybody's out to get you, even your friends that want your house and your wife, and these are your friends. It's a dog-eat-dog world. What would you imagine about the childhood of that person? They were unsafe.

49:59They felt unsafe. Yeah. So out of that lack of safety, they created a worldview. I've just quoted verbatim a recent president of the United States because he said these words in his autobiography. So he's not crazy to believe that, but he confuses his own emotional experience with the way the world is. And as long as he believes that that's the way the world is he's going to behave like that's the way the world is. So he's going to make himself bigger and bigger and more and more grandiose so that nobody can get at him. He's going to have to be aggressive attack others before they get him and he's going to have to be really selfish and acquisitive because otherwise they're going to take it away from him.

50:46So that worldview, which he obtained in the context of a very traumatizing family home, which has been described very intimately and articulately by his niece, whose own father drank himself to death, is going to behave according to those beliefs. What he doesn't know is that those beliefs actually were a natural outcome of his childhood trauma. and rather than healing the trauma. And it can't be very pleasant to be inside that consciousness. I mean, how pleasant it is to be inside a consciousness that says, I'm totally all alone. I'm on my own. I have to be aggressive, selfish. Everybody's against me.

51:30I mean, how does it feel like to be inside a head like that? You know, but he's compelled to act it out. If he was able to say to himself, If you actually listen to his therapist niece, his psychologist niece, who said, look, this is what happened. And the beliefs that you have came out of, came out as a natural result of what happened. You could actually be different. You could actually liberate yourself from this worldview. But of course, in this society, he's rewarded for having those beliefs. It's reinforced. and I'm not signalling him out by the way. You see this almost across the political spectrum.

52:15Yeah, those beliefs are common. Yeah, it's very common. And so agency means I don't have to believe the story that I downloaded when I was a kid. Right, you can rewrite it. Yeah, I can create my own story based on conscious awareness of what's going on. I don't have to be the victim of my childhood. So trauma awareness is not about victimhood. It's actually about power. Right. That's where the healing begins. And being able to change that story is something that we work really hard with our clients on. Because as you mentioned, how you view the world will dictate the behaviors that you express in it to navigate it.

52:56Everyone, they look for the root cause of certain behaviors and why they act in the way they do and get caught up in some of the loops that they do. It's like, well, there's a belief that is stuck that forces that pattern. And there's usually a clasp that holds that loop together. And it's going to stem from a belief. And usually it's that I'm not good enough. And there was a whole part in the book, in the belief structuring part, of how that belief runs through so many of us. And in fact, it's one of the most commonly held beliefs that we all have due to our growing up. Well, certainly it showed up in my life a lot and it drove a lot of my behaviors and emotional patterns.

53:52I wouldn't say it's completely dissipated even now because, but that's okay, I'm only 79, so I got time to work on it. I often say this, but I think it's worth saying, I'm 79 and I'm glad I'm not as young as stupid as I was when I was 78. So there's hope for us all folks. But recently I had an event, quite a public event, where I was made to look really bad in the eyes of a lot of people, and in which I had made some mistakes that contributed to that. I thought I was immune, but I wasn't. I went through a real period of several days at least, not months or weeks, but some days of real despondence, and oh my God, what did I do?

54:36And I really screwed up, and you know. Well, that goes back to a sense of not being good enough. Because I mean, let's face it, even if I made a mistake, and partly it wasn't a mistake, partly it was just misrepresentation, but even if I made a mistake, what's the headline in the New York Times? Human being make mistakes? That doesn't sell any papers. Shocking. Human beings make a mistake. So we all do. Why should that undermine our self-esteem? Unless there's this wound there that I'm just not worth it. Unless I'm successful or liked and so on. So that one, as you say, is the deepest wound of all.

55:15And what's interesting about it, even that belief at some point played a defensive function. Because when you're suffering as a kid, either because your parents don't understand, you see you because they're too stressed, too distracted, really embrace who you are exactly as you are, or worse, if your parents are hurting you or if they're hurting each other.

55:40There's two beliefs you can adopt. one is that the world is incapable of meeting my needs I'm totally alone defenseless and helpless or this bad stuff is happening because it's my fault and if I work hard enough if I was good enough I could fix it of those two beliefs which is more palatable for most children it's the one that there's something wrong with me so even that belief that is so debilitating that there's something wrong with me actually serves a protective function at some point so you discussed five r's to unpack this limiting belief it's something that we find in our clients and ourselves to even struggle with what are the five r's and how do we start to move beyond this limiting belief that's so common this is actually an exercise that was originally developed by Dr.

56:41Jeffrey Schwartz, who's a psychiatrist at UCLA, working with OCD. And he developed these four steps to work with OCD symptoms. These steps have to be done regularly and with conscious awareness. And the conscious awareness reshapes the brain. That's the essence of what he's talking about. But the good news is that with practice, we can actually undo the effects of trauma. We can develop new brain circuits to regulate the older ones. And that's really what this exercise is designed to do. So now with his permission then, I applied these four, because I didn't say, you know, they worked for OCD for a lot of people, he found, but I thought, well, why couldn't they work for addictions too?

57:29And so I, at least behavior addictions. which have a lot in common with OCD. They're not the same, but there's a lot of commonality. So in my book, In the Realm of Hunger Ghosts and Addictions, I reconfigurated these four steps to apply to addiction. And then I broadened that. Let's work with all self-limiting beliefs. So those are the four R's. I had the fifth one. So I'll give Dr. Schwartz credit for the first four. I'll take credit for the last one. But they become, let's say you believe that you're not worth it, that you're not good enough. So the first one is you relabel, relabel. Relabel means not that I'm not good enough, but I have a thought that I'm not good enough.

58:13I have a belief that I'm not good enough. As soon as you relabel it, you're getting distance from it. Because as long as you say, I'm not worthy, you're identifying with the beliefs. As soon as you say, I have a belief that I'm not worth it, now you've taken the steps away from it. There's a separation between yourself and the belief. There's an I, then there's this belief. So that's the first step, the relabel. And this can be applied to any self-limiting belief. I have to please others. No, I don't have to please others. I have a belief that I have to please others. And so on. So that's the first step, relabel.

58:49The second one is reattribute, which is to say, attribute this belief to exactly where it belongs. So this is my brain sending me, you know, this belief, that I'm not worthy. It's just my brain sending me an old message, a message that I self-developed defensively when I was three years old. It was not that I'm unworthy. This is my brain sending me a message that maybe served a function way back then, but now undermines me. So that's the second step. The third step is refocus. And that means if you got this belief that I'm not worthy. Just take five minutes. This is an exercise you're meant to do.

59:33It's not just a thought pattern. Take a piece of paper once a day or once a week or three times a week and sit down and do this exercise consciously with conscious awareness. Not routinely, but consciously. And do it in writing so that not typing on a computer, but write it out by hand. So the third step is refocus. Okay, I'm not worthy, but maybe I'll come back to that belief. But for five minutes, I'm going to focus on the people I've loved or the people that have loved me or things that I've done well or good thoughts that I've had or I'm going to look at a flower or I'm going to look at a beautiful photograph or a picture or I'm going to listen to a beautiful piece of music consciously I'm going to take my mind's focus away from this belief and put it on something that's nourishing that's called refocus simple little exercise the step four is called revalue which is to actually evaluate this belief for what is really done in your life so this belief that i'm unworthy what is this actual value what has it done oh it kept me a workaholic it kept me feeling bad about myself.

1:00:49It kept me desperate. It kept me isolated. It kept me ashamed. That's what it's actually done. That's its actual value. It's got a negative value. That's called the revalue or re-evaluate. The fifth one, which I've added, is called recreate, which is to say, up till now, largely, I've been driven by these unconscious forces, by these beliefs. I didn't have agency. I didn't deliberately take these on these are natural responses to my childhood programming now i can recreate myself what are my actual aspirations what is my heart's desire what kind of world do i want to live in what do i want to contribute or what do i want to experience so consciously recreate an image of who you want to be and and how you want to show up in the world so those are the five hours thank you for sharing with our audience i think many of us listening have had those moments, in fact, for me just recently, and in that moment, it can be all consuming and it can lead to behaviors that pull you away from your goals, pull you into inaction or to even more negative behaviors that aren't helpful to your health.

1:01:56That recreation step, the visualization piece is often, I feel the most difficult if we've been in that state. And that's been a limiting belief for so long in our life, it's come up over and over again. How, for those in our audience who would struggle to think about what they want to be or what that vision is start to work on the recreation step more impactfully look first of all if you're training somebody as a weightlifter how would you get them to bench press 300 pounds lift the bar first you lift the the bar first. So just start simply, you know, I wanna be a loving person, period. Or I wanna be a person who experiences love.

1:02:44Everybody's got some aspiration. It's not that difficult to identify something. This particular exercise, if somebody takes it on, it's like lifting weights. You gotta start somewhere and you gotta keep doing it. You're not gonna get to 300 pounds if you don't train for it. This is training. And the whole point is, our childhood kind of hypnotized us into a certain set of beliefs. Now we have to retrain ourselves. This exercise certainly is not the be all and the end all. It's just one way to approach these self-limiting beliefs, but it's in a training exercise. If you want to take it on, take it on.

1:03:18If you go to the gym three times a week, do this exercise three times a week. It takes 15 minutes, you know? Or do it six times a week, whatever. The more you do it, the more you're going to develop new brain circuits that can actually hold that message. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to join us and share your work with us. We love asking every guest one last question. What is your X factor? What do you think makes you unique and extraordinary? My absolute commitment to figuring out the truth of things and not just figuring it out, but also to speaking it once I think I found it. And that's true in my personal life that's been what's kept our marriage of 52 years vibrant is that we're both really committed to the truth we didn't just buy as much as we acted out our stories sometimes in hurtful ways we're actually committed to figuring out the truth and that's true for me in the realm of the human mind human health politics and just really committed to truth because i agree with a very great person who once said that you will know the truth and the truth will liberate you so i think there's freedom and truth and where can our audience find out more about this book and your other writings this book is available everywhere the metanormal trauma illness and healing and toxic culture um is published in or will be in 30 languages now you know over 30 countries uh bookstores certainly on online um i love it when people patronize their local bookstores by the way but um those that i it's none of it you can certainly get it online i have a website dr gabromate g-a-b-o-r-m-a-t-e.com at my website you can join my email list if you want to.

1:05:11So it's not difficult to find me out there. All right. Thank you so much for stopping by and sharing this book with us. Thank you very much. Well, thank you. It's such a pleasure. Thank you, guys. It's been a real pleasure. Take care.

1:05:32All right. This week's shout out goes to Brad who used our online profile audit to beef up his online dating profiles. Brad considers himself successful and decent looking, but had little luck. And it was frustrating to not get any matches. And he was about to give up on the whole thing. Well, a few tweaks from our profile auditor, Heather, and he's had more success than ever. For the first time in his life, he's turning dates down and only going out with girls he's interested in. Way to go, Brad. I love hearing those stories. And if you listen this far, my guess is that it is because you want more out of life and finally succeed at work loving life.

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