The Secrets of Body Language | Joe Navarro

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34:17With all the technology we have, it's easy for people to get into this headspace where everything is very pragmatic, next step, next step, next step. Some people learn in a very organized fashion. Some people like myself need to just walk in and make a complete disaster mess and then start picking up the pieces to see how it all fits. And I had to get comfortable with that idea because that was the only way that allowed me to function in a learning capacity. Doing it in a very pragmatic, organized way made me so frustrated that it made me hesitant in starting a learning process because it wasn't as fun to me.

35:02And with life in itself, I think for a lot of it, It has to be done in a very messy fashion. Life is not going to be fair with you. Nature is certainly not going to be fair with you. There's going to be a lot of uncertainty to it. And so trying to deal with life in a very pragmatic, organized fashion is going to leave you pulling out your hair because it's not going to be dealt out to you that way. And you have to get comfortable with that uncertainty and learn how to maneuver through it. Yeah, because you never know what, you know, talking to AJ, talking to you, it's going to be different. And that's one of the things that we're not taught in school, that every person that you talk to, you talk to them differently.

35:49because each person interacts with the world differently. You know, Johnny, in many ways, you're like my sister, Terry, and I love her. She comes into a room and she's talking to everybody and she engages everybody. You know, and I'm kind of shy. I go from one person to the other and so forth. But she can engage a whole room. and people love to be around her and so forth. And we have to learn that each person talks differently, interacts differently, has different comfort levels, you know, our spatial differences, the cadence at which we communicate, the energy of, you know, if I'm talking about this, If you're talking about music, you're going to talk about it with a certain energy.

36:49Like earlier, we were talking about jazz, you know, and you're arching your eyebrows. So those are the exclamation points and you're excited about it. But each person, we have to learn that there's a benefit to talking to each one, engaging that energy on a similar plane. You know, I always say synchrony is harmony. And if we can achieve that, you know, if you want to have a quiet moment with me, we're going to have a quiet moment. And if we're going to, you know, get excited about something, then let's get excited. But to observe, you know, to detect that, you have to be able to observe it. And I think that's where you guys shine is that you can observe, hey, this is this person's personality.

37:52And I'm sure you see it, you know, when you're doing your live instruction and, you know, as you call people up. Oh, this person, you know, he's shy. He needs to be brought up or, oh, boy, you know, this is Mr. Theatrical or, you know, whatever. But that's one of the things that I wish was taught more often, especially now where we have more executives, frankly, more leaders who are on the autism spectrum. And I know of a few of them, and they're mild on that, but you have to approach them differently. You have to talk to them differently. Oh, yeah. And if we don't learn that, if we don't learn to have that respect and also be aware of culture, that we're harming ourselves.

39:02Because in the end, that's who we're harming. We're not harming other people. We're really harming ourselves. Well, I love that you brought that up because that's what we mean by the art of it. Everyone would love just a one page, one sheet, crack the code. How do I instantly build rapport with someone? How do I make them a lifelong friend? And it's the art of it. It's understanding, hey, what are they not sharing about their college experience? What did they do when they looked away when you brought up jazz? Was there discomfort there? Maybe they're unfamiliar with it. That level of observation and curiosity is really what fuels these exceptional communicators leading to this third trait of understanding that everyone wants to be valued.

39:48Everyone wants to be validated and feel heard. And if you're not observing, you're not going to be an exceptional communicator. So valuable that point that we humans don't seek perfection. We seek psychological comfort, number one. But number two, we seek validation. And validation, I know you know this, Johnny. Validation is something as simple as, oh, you know what? That's a good point. And that means so much to me that you would say that, even though you may disagree with it. It's the, you know, when I look at failure to validate, especially intentional, When I see managers who fail to validate people who absolutely, you know, I just read a book on Humphrey Bogart, and I wanted to see, you say, Joe Navarro, body language guy?

40:48What's he doing? I wanted to see what it was like when the old studio system existed. These guys would sign up, literally, for seven-year contracts. Humphrey Bogart had a 15-year contract with, that's one, what, one-fifth of your life in those days? And, you know, they're signing their lives away. But what did they want the most? They wanted validation. They wanted to be validated. and we forget the importance of it. They had money, but it was, if you asked these old stars, what did you really value? You know, for a studio executive to say, hey, you know, you're helping us make 56 movies a year and we want to thank you for that.

41:54I love this. In our classes, we talk about the value that you're giving in any social situation and in an interaction. And the value, we define value as attention, approval, and acceptance, which is, it's a very simple thing, but we all crave it. And you mentioned, and I love this term, I'm going to have to steal it, but it's the failure to validate and the consequences of that failure to validate. and this is what's great about everyone is so worried in interactions or i think it's easy to think about how do i get something out of this for myself which makes then every interaction increasingly difficult because you're asking for something and you're trying to get something rather than focusing on the other person and we've always said the answers for every one of your questions in the interaction or in the other person so you need to be present and focusing on them with your listening skills.

42:53And I just love that because, and you stated it, validation is such a simple thing, but it has such a profound effect on how the other person feels about hanging out with you, about spending time with you. And I want to unpack one thing you shared there, Joe, because this is so key. And this is a misconception that many in our audience and our clients have around validation. You can validate without agreeing. Oh, yeah. That's a great point. I've never thought of that. That doesn't mean you agree with the direction they're going. And I stumbled across one of your recent articles promoting the book around this exact thing, that it's important whether you're interrogating someone or you're just trying to build a friendship, that we're not in this constant disagreement and I'm right, you're wrong.

43:43Actually valuing someone else's opinion and then shifting to your opinion is far more effective than telling someone you're wrong, shutting them down, proving to them all the ways that they haven't thought through something. But that nuance is lost on many people when they hear validation. They hear, oh, I have to be a people pleaser. I just have to be really agreeable. I have to sacrifice my own wants, needs, and desires to make other people like me. And that's just not true. That's not what we mean by validation. You're both exactly right. In fact, that article, the lead author on that was my business partner, Anna Marcha-Out, because she runs into this in her business in Europe.

44:23And it's true. People think that validation means acquiescence, that if you validate others, then you're basically becoming their chew toy. No, no, you're not. When you validate others, it is the ethical thing to do. They have a point. We listen to their point. We try to understand their perspective. And I've done this. I've sat next to criminals who have done really bad things, and they're explaining things, okay? I am validating what they are saying. Yes, I can see that, okay, that was a bad mistake. I understand that. But that doesn't mean I yield. That doesn't mean I, at the end of it all, I say, yeah, but you're still going to jail.

45:23It's not because it's not. Great points. I get it. Those are great points. And, you know, and I think a trial, I mean, I've literally said this maybe 10 or 12 times over my careers. I said, You know, I think at trial, those might be useful points for you to make. But you're still going to prison because, you know, society just, you know, frowns upon bank robberies. So, you know, validation is what you don't realize is the power of validation. That by listening to others, that especially in relationships and in the workplace, your children come to you, they acclaim, I did this. Okay. You give them that validation.

46:19that that's really interesting. How did you do that? Right. So the first, a lot of times, you know, they come in as, hey, I built this fort. Oh, good boy. And then off they go. That's that's really not validation. Here's what validation sounds like. How did you do that? So by yourself, you gathered up these things and, you know, the twigs and the sand and And you made this castle. How did you put that in your mind? How did you put that together, right? Now we're validating because we're using that sweet component called benign curiosity. Okay? So now we're making this person. We're elevating this person.

47:10Yeah, but we're elevating ourselves. we're elevating ourselves because that person grows to trust us you know we talk about rapport and trust it's not that complicated it's it's really not when you begin to validate you're you're both being elevated and you know the worst thing we can do and and and johnny you were hinting on that from the book where I say failure to validate invalidates. And think about how many times we as humans are invalidated. When we look at the Me Too movement, when we look at people that are habitually abused, when we look at any minority, any group that has suffered anything, the minute you do not validate you're invalidating them and and that's just that in many ways that's just cruel it's it's um you know one of the things that i wrote about recently for psychology today I said, the bully uses invalidation because they know that it's the wound that doesn't go away.

48:43See, if I hit you, you're going to have a hematoma, but it's going to heal. It's going to heal, right? But your brain, we have the hippocampus. We have two of them. Everything negative goes in there for more than a decade or more. When we fail to validate any kind of suffering or experience of others, we're just compounding that suffering. And the bully, they're using it because they know that pain will not go away while we fail to invalidate. And that's why the exceptional really make it a priority to validate the experiences of others.

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50:44Joe, that brings up a question in discussing this. right now we're seeing a pretty wide divide politically. And I think all of us here understand that we're going to need to be able to communicate together in order to forge a path forward. However, you could say that there's a lot of folks who are uninterested in starting off the communication on any sort of equal ground, on an agreement on any sort of truth where we can begin to have a conversation. Now, in your line of work, I certainly know that you've talked to a lot of bad apples, a lot of folks who are being very uncooperative. In your experience, did you feel, well, I'll just flat out just give you the floor on that.

51:39What were your tactics in order to be able to get people comfortable to come to the table with a shared agreement of reality and or a stance where you can start communicating from. Because I see they're like, well, I'd love to talk to this person, but they're a bad actor. And it's like, well, okay, well, do we move to the next person or what can we do to try to get them to be able to validate each other on our points to begin this conversation? That is one profound question. And how long is this show? Because, no, this is one of those questions that really is for the ages. because this phenomena is with us, that we now have shorter fuses.

52:39We don't have the time to sit down and have the salons that you would have in Paris where you would invite everybody and you would sit and discuss things and so forth. I think my methodology is, one, you have to consider the venue. If it's a shouting match and you've got 30 people and they're shouting at you, there's really not much you can do. I believe on the one-on-one approach. And my approach was always, and this is an approach that I use with not just extremists, but with people who are so married to an ideology that they're just simply inflexible. And that was whether they belonged to a cult and they were protecting a cult leader or maybe they were part of the Islamic jihad or whatever.

53:48the the the trick or the artistry was let them vent don't cut them off hear them out get them to explain things but in different ways try to get as much out of them as to how they came to that philosophy, what they believe in, what is their worldview, what have they suffered. You know, many of these people are wound collectors. They're constantly collecting wounds of, well, you know, you Americans did this, okay? You know, just listen, listen, listen. And one of the things that I found over time, and that's the problem, is often we don't have enough time is people purge themselves of all this angst of all this animosity of of all these things and when you've given them that opportunity i found that it's at that point that then they become receptive to talking to you that if you intercept them earlier and say whoa wait no no no America gives more aid than any other country.

55:12And we tend to cut people off. No, no, no. Let them express themselves. As we do so, what we're doing is building FaceTime. And then the system of reciprocity kicks in. And they sort of, okay, you were decent enough to listen to me. Now I'm going to listen to you. And I have, I can tell you, obviously I can't give you specifics, but I can tell you that the most ardent of anti-American, of anti-government, whatever, at the end were willing to talk and to be considerate where in the beginning it wasn't going anywhere. But, you know, that has applications at home. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, what I've noticed about that exact strategy is people who have such extreme viewpoints tend to clump together and only be around people who share those viewpoints.

56:17So they've never actually had to express them fully in their thinking behind them. They're operating around assumptions that everyone in their in-group is carrying. so all of these logical fallacies are never pointed out because it's just assumed we have the exact same viewpoint and goal in mind so let's move forward together but if you give someone enough opportunity to actually explain how they arrived at that point they're going to start to see the logical fallacies without you having to do anything to point them out and in fact if you point them out it's just going to harden their views and their beliefs further because they don't see you as being on their side.

56:58And this works whether it's a terrorist or even in a conflict situation amongst friends where one side has dug their heels in, the other side has dug their heels in. And many of us just want to jump in and insert our viewpoint instead of giving them the space to actually express fully how they got to that conclusion. Because how they got there is often fraught with some assumptions, some false data, some experiences that maybe now upon reflection are different than they thought. But we're not giving people enough time to express themselves. And, you know, we were laughing earlier when we started, much of this conversation is happening in 140 characters.

57:37That's not enough time or space to express anything meaningful. You know, you need pages, you need time to really unpack. And as you said, to get someone comfortable enough to trust that you actually have their best intentions in mind. You're not adversarial. And what I see in the political discourse, what I see in how we're communicating with the people on the other side who maybe don't agree with us in our worldview is nothing that's persuasive. You know, when I look at all of my changing in my views over my lifetime, from the way I was raised in high school to my experiences in college and now as an adult, it's all come from me having to explain it, to actually vocalize it and sit with it, for me to have that shift in opinion and realize like, oh, maybe I was making an assumption that really wasn't true.

58:30Oh, what other assumptions might there be? And is there another way to look at this? You don't arrive at that viewpoint if you're just hanging tightly to your side. Well, think about this. How many people in your life actually give you the opportunity to fully explain yourself? Just think about that. How many times does that happen in a day, in a week, or a month? It's rare. It's rare. You know, if I were sitting down with Johnny, this might take three days, right? Because, you know, you think about all his experiences and things that he's done, the people he's known, venues where he's been at, AJ.

59:15You know, we would have to explore a lot of territory. but how many people take the time to say, you know, give me the full thrust of everything you got? Most people don't do that. No, you're wrong. They just cut you off. Most people haven't even done it with themselves. You know, we recommend a self-authoring program for all of our students to really understand who they are at a deeper level. And many of us have never really thought about those turning points in our lives and those experiences and those memories that we attach so much meaning to to really unpack and understand where that meaning comes from.

1:00:01And especially in today's culture, we're living for the future. It's just like, what's the next snapshot? What's the next opportunity? What's the next experience? And we haven't really taken enough time to collect our thoughts around, okay, well, what was that turning point in high school that got me off of medicine and got me more interested in communication? And what truly happened in that cancer lab that made me decide that I didn't want to do this anymore? And it's remarkable to us how many of our clients, when they go through that journey, realize that there's so much more to their personality, there's so much more to be expressed, and they can connect and relate to others in a deeper way, all because they understand themselves more.

1:00:45I like that. That concept that you guys teach of, like, do a self-journal. Why did you make those decisions? You know, it would be interesting. Even in my own life, I'm thinking, what if somebody had come to me and say, why did you leave South Florida? Why did you decide to go in the Bureau? Why did you... And decide to start writing. Now, what's interesting about that is we can turn that inward. But as you guys teach in your classes, what if you turn that outward? And had your executives say, you know, tell me, why did you decide to go that route? and i there's just i think there's a you're onto something that's very powerful is the why of of of our humanity well certainly goes to something we started this with which was you were um can't remember which context it was but we were discussing of finding out who you are, that self-mastery journey.

1:02:01And that can't start out with you being the best or a complete person. That starts out with you admitting that you don't know shit and there's a lot to do here. And I'm going to go start taking those steps to start becoming complete, or at least getting as close to that as I possibly can on this journey. I mean, what I love about it, what self-development as a whole is, the minute you decide I'm interested and you start gaining little pieces and implement them in your life, your life changes. Your direction changes. Your trajectory changes. The opportunities to present themselves change. And it's all from the little things that you add, the little skills, the acknowledgement of where you are, some self-awareness to who you are as a person.

1:03:00I even mentioned earlier the way I like to learn. I had to learn that the hard way.

1:03:08By going in every direction. Still learning it the hard way. Yeah, and even when it was presented to me, I was like, well, I don't want to learn that way. That sounds like a giant mess. It's like, well, try it the other way. It's like, well, this is even worse. It's like to accept that. It was like, well, that didn't make me happy. I was like, well, everything's going to be frustrating every time I try to learn something new. Oh, great. But also coming to accept that that frustration is only an indication that I'm moving in the right direction. I have this visual of you being in the middle of a court and everybody's throwing a ball at you and eventually one of them is going to stick.

1:03:49I think you're talking exactly about, in the book I referred to Joseph Campbell, who, the great cousin, you know, the mythologist. And he talks about, you know, and he said it in the terms of the 1970s and 80s. And he said, you know, find your own bliss. and people made fun of that and said, oh, what? You know, I'm going to sit in a lounge chair and my bliss is going to come to me. No, no. And it's exactly what you're talking about, Johnny. It's you go out and you script what that future is going to be. You go out and you seek and find. And sometimes it's like that crazy ball thing where you've got to do it your own way.

1:04:41You're not going to do it the university way. You're not going to do it the coach's way. You're not going to do it your father's way or your mother's way. But you go out, and one of the things that I learned from Joseph Campbell was you don't know the doors that will be open to you. the personalities that you will meet, that all of a sudden, things that you never anticipated are now open to you. And in my own life, I can tell you of just incredible amount. You know, we grew up, I mean, we were poor in Miami. My parents were working for tips that sometimes were 15 cents, 27 cents, things like that, who never anticipated that I would be, you know, giving a presentation where, you know, the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO would be there or a president of a bank or anything like that, right?

1:05:49You know, or I would meet Paul Ackman or, you know, all these dignitaries. but but joseph campbell was right when we make that effort whether we call it the universe or happenstance or whatever things just open up look at how many people you've had on your show could you have imagined that when you were in high school never in a million years you know Maybe you thought about it. Maybe it was in the back of your mind. But those things didn't begin to happen until you started moving in that direction. When you started to claw to build your future, that's when those things started to happen. Now, many in our audience are at that point of clawing and starting to build their own future.

1:06:43And not only do we love your curiosity and all of your books, but you've been through so much training and sought mentorship yourself. What's that piece of advice you wish you had starting out in your career? Or maybe you were fortunate enough to have it early in your career. I think if I had to summarize it into something really compact, it is feed my curiosity and don't stop. I could have easily stopped with a baccalaureate degree. I could have stopped with a master's degree. I could have stopped with 10 books, 12 books. But you know what? It hasn't hurt me to read 5 ,000 books. It hasn't impacted, it hasn't debilitated me in any way.

1:07:32It has not hurt me in any way to ask people, how do you do that? Or how did you achieve that? Or what was your, you know, what did you think about when you decided to get into that? I genuinely want to know from others what they know. And I see nothing wrong with doing that. I think the biggest problem we see in society today is people who say, well, I've achieved. I need to learn nothing more. And that's rather unfortunate. Well, we recommend all of our listeners read your latest book, Be Exceptional. The last question we ask all of our amazing guests is, what is your X factor? What is it that makes you exceptional and extraordinary out of all the traits and everything you've experienced in your career?

1:08:27Well, I don't see myself as exceptional, perhaps because I know my weaknesses. But I think if you were to say, what is an admirable trait that Joe Navarro has? It's that. It's curiosity. Nothing else. It's not my flying skills. It's not what I did on a SWAT team. It's not interrogations or anything like that. It isn't even the books on nonverbals. I think it's just my curiosity. I think we could add humility to that list we find you exceptional thank you for joining us fantastic conversation my pleasure, thank you guys

1:09:23thank you for listening to another fine episode of the Art of Charm podcast and now comes the moment in our podcast where we showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Mike. Hi, my name is Michael, and I'm an accountant for an insurance company. Before the X Factor Accelerator, I struggled to build and maintain close connections in my social circle because I wasn't the best at sharing thoughts and feelings with others. The reason I joined the X Factor Accelerator is to improve my overall social confidence with my family, friends, colleagues, new acquaintances, and in my social and romantic life.

1:10:02My favorite thing about the X-Factor Accelerator is that it helped me overcome my fear and anxiety when interacting at large social events so that I can now confidently approach others and make new connections with ease. What I'm looking forward to now is using the skills, techniques, and experience I've learned to create long-lasting and more meaningful relationships with the people I care about most in life. Thank you, Mike. And it was a pleasure working with you too. And good luck to you and all of your future endeavors. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show.

1:10:41It means the world to us and it helps others find the show. Before we head out, a huge thank you to our producers Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. Until next week, go out there and make it epic. Yeah, I remember you You were the bad boy You threw your love away Like it was just a toy And you sold the world You sold the tragedy Cause you had your taste I'm black only yesterday Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you

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