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Podcast Notes: The Art of Charm - Episode: Validation Ladder: 8 Skills That Build Incredible Relationships with Dr. Caroline Fleck
Episode Overview In this episode, hosts Johnny and AJ speak with Dr. Caroline Fleck, a licensed psychologist, corporate consultant, and adjunct at Stanford, about the crucial role of validation in building authentic relationships and navigating complex conversations. Dr. Fleck shares insights from her new book, *Validation*, which explores emotional intelligence and the importance of validating others in personal and professional interactions.
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Key Takeaways
- Understanding Validation
- Definition of Validation:
- Validation is the act of showing someone that you see and hear them; it’s the language of acceptance.
- It differs from praise and agreement; validation acknowledges the truth in another’s perspective without necessarily agreeing with it.
- Common Misconception:
- Many confuse validation with agreement. Validation recognizes feelings and experiences without needing to align with them.
- The Eight Levels of Validation
- Overview of the Levels:
- Dr. Fleck introduces eight levels that build emotional depth and rapport in conversations.
- First Three Levels:
- Attending:
- Engage non-judgmentally; listen fully without planning your response.
- Copying:
- Subtly mimic another's language and body language to create a sense of connection.
- Contextualizing:
- Understand and articulate the context behind a person's behavior to validate their experiences.
- Continuing the Validation Process
- Levels Four to Eight:
- Equalizing:
- Create equality in conversations; relate your experiences but avoid minimizing the other’s feelings.
- Proposing:
- Make educated guesses about what the other person might be feeling or thinking, facilitating deeper dialogue.
- Emoting:
- Express genuine emotions in response to someone's experience, enhancing intimacy and connection.
- Disclosure:
- Share relevant personal experiences to show empathy, but be cautious to ensure it's appropriate and genuine.
- Emotional Intelligence and Its Importance
- Emotional intelligence (EQ) can be developed through skills like validation, making it essential in professional settings.
- In the age of AI, where emotional connections are scarce, developing EQ can provide a competitive edge.
- Practical Tips for Implementing Validation Skills
- Start with lower-stakes situations to practice validation skills.
- Utilize non-verbal communication, such as eye contact, to enhance attentiveness.
- Ask follow-up questions to deepen the understanding and context during conversations.
- Use proposing skillfully; it’s okay to be wrong, as it fosters conversation and understanding.
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Discussion Highlights
The Power of Connection
- Validation fosters connection and rapport, crucial for successful relationships in both personal and professional realms.
- Emotional responses from both parties can create a supportive environment where individuals feel acknowledged and understood.
Role of Leadership in Validation
- For leaders, validating team members can significantly affect morale and productivity.
- It’s essential for leaders to demonstrate validation through actions and communication, particularly when addressing sensitive issues.
Cautions and Missteps
- Misusing the equalizing skill can lead to invalidation if it shifts focus away from the other person's experience.
- Disclosure must be handled delicately to avoid overshadowing the other person's feelings or experiences.
Conclusion Dr. Caroline Fleck emphasizes that mastering the skill of validation can transform both personal and professional relationships, highlighting the significance of emotional intelligence in today’s fast-paced world. By practicing these skills, individuals can enhance their connections with others and navigate complex conversations more effectively.
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Additional Resources
- Book: *Validation: How the Skill Set That Revolutionized Psychology Will Transform Your Relationships, Increase Your Influence, and Change Your Life* by Dr. Caroline Fleck
- Website: [Dr. Caroline Fleck](https://www.drcarolinefleck.com)
- Social Media:
- [Dr. Caroline Fleck on Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/drcarolinefleck)
For more episodes and insights, visit [The Art of Charm](https://theartofcharm.com).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Next up is a little song from CarMax about selling a car your way. You wanna sell those wheels You wanna get a CarMax Instant offer So fast Wanna take a sec to think about it Or like a month Wanna keep tabs on that instant offer With OfferWatch Wanna have CarMax pick it up from your driveway You wanna get it done to it You wanna do it So, wanna drive? CarMax, pickup not available everywhere Restrictions and fee may apply Let me tell you guys copying is some sweet, sweet magic. We are all hardwired to copy. As babies, we mimic the facial expressions of our parents and other caregivers. We have so-called mirror neurons that allow us to connect with what somebody is feeling simply by virtue of copying their reactions.
0:55You and I, all of us, we will naturally copy people more if we're attracted to them or we really like them. We tend not to copy when we do not like somebody, when we disagree with them. And guess what? That's probably when you need it most because that's when you're feeling the divide. This one simple strategy is an incredible way to validate when you don't see much else there you can do.
1:32All right, let's kick off today's show. Today, we're talking with Dr. Carolyn Fleck, and she shares psychology's most powerful relationship hack, validation. Dr. Fleck is a licensed psychologist, corporate consultant, and an adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford University. Her newest book, Validation, How the Skillset that Revolutionize Psychology Will Transform Your Relationships, increase your influence, and change your life, is the first ever to make the validation skills therapists use to get through to anyone available to everyone. Today, we're going to learn how to master the eight levels of connections that others miss, turn difficult conversation into deeper connections instantly, and feel understood and help others feel seen.
2:13Welcome to the show, Dr. Flack. It's so great to have you. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. I think we would be remiss without at least starting the show by defining validation and why it's psychology's best kept secret. Yeah. So real simple. Validation shows that you're there, you get it and you care. It's the language of acceptance. OK, so when you validate somebody, you you show them that you see and hear them. That's what we mean by validation. And I'm glad you asked me to define it. Because it's always getting confused with praise. Everybody's all about do not seek external validation.
2:55But if we look at it really for what it is, which is acceptance, then it really does seem like something we should seek or expect from our relationships. Well, it's interesting you mentioned that because when we teach our clients validation in our courses and especially with the military, the first pushback we get on validation is, well, what if I don't agree with them? and validation is often confused with agreement. So how is it different? Validation is not agreement. It's also not praise, which I hope to discuss in a moment. I don't eat meat. I'm a vegetarian and I have my reasons for being a vegetarian.
3:34And if I wanted to try and convince somebody to also be a vegetarian, I could make all of my points. However, I see a lot of valid reasons why people choose to eat meat. I can easily validate that position. It is harder to be a vegetarian in terms of your options and, you know, even the cost sometimes. It's not for everybody in terms of the nutrients that they need or can get. I can validate that perspective all day long, even though I don't agree with it. So with validation, you're just looking for the kernel of truth in the other person's perspective, not agreement. I think it's just such a key point because obviously there's going to be lots of things that we don't agree with when we're meeting people, even with our partners or spouses, our best friends or coworkers.
4:29And if we're just seeking agreement and using that as a way to validate, then the scope of validation that we can actually give shrinks tremendously versus you should be able to validate anyone as a human. Right. That's right. And and at some level. So in my book, I talk about different levels of validation. So there's like a profoundly deep like, oh, my gosh, this person is me. You know, like they're like my soulmate. They see me on this other level. That's a pretty profound level of validation. At the most basic, you should at least be able to attend or engage in a way that's nonjudgmental. And we would consider that to be a pretty low level of validation.
5:08But you should be able to bring at least that even when you're sitting across from like your fiercest political opponents, which is hard to imagine. I know. I was going to say, I think unfortunately many of us avoid those situations as much as possible. But I think it segues into it'd be great to understand those eight levels of validation. And then we can talk about some of the misconceptions and ways that we can strengthen them because one of the key points in the book is that emotional intelligence validation, we all can get better at and everyone can do. So the skills that I teach in my book come straight from clinical psychology.
5:44So these skills were developed to help psychologists get through to really difficult to treat clients. Okay, so folks who were perhaps very resistant to change and often didn't feel very accepted or had been exposed to a lot of invalidation in their lives. We wanted to make sure that therapists could reliably validate these folks. And so we developed a handful of skills. And when I first learned these skills, you know, over a decade ago, I was like, why aren't we teaching this in grade school? Like, this seems pretty important. I do teach eight skills. More importantly, I teach kind of how to move, how to connect them and use them kind of in tandem to navigate different types of situations.
6:35But at the most basic level, like I said before, we can always just be engaged. And so there's two skills we use when I, if I don't really understand or I don't empathize with another person's perspective. I can at least engage. And if I'm going to engage in ways that signal non-judgment and acceptance, I've got two skills I can use. The first is called attending, okay? It's a combination of using non-verbals and asking yourself, what's this person's point and how could I do a better job of making it? Which sounds incredibly smug, okay? But the point is, it's almost like debate. When you have to argue for a side, regardless of whether or not you agree with it, you are looking for information to support that thesis.
7:28And you approach it differently than if you're trying to argue against it. So by simply asking yourself those two questions, what's this person's point and how could I do a better job of like sharpening that point? You don't need to say anything. This is just something you're asking in your head. It will fundamentally change both how you listen and how you engage. What type of follow-up questions you ask? What type of mm-hmm, ah comments you make? Yeah, it's really interesting because many of our course participants all rate themselves as great listeners. But then when we film them interacting, especially around practicing this validation, things start to fall apart.
8:09And really being a great listener is different than the skill of actually demonstrating to the other person that you're listening and following along. Many of us get tripped up on where we can agree or what we do see as a point of view versus really listening to, as you say, to attend, to understand at a much deeper level. Interestingly, I've worked with a lot of folks in my career, both therapists and then clients and then in executive coaching. And what I found is that folks with the highest emotional intelligence aren't necessarily the best at validating. And it is in part because they do get it and they have under indexed on the importance of learning how to communicate or show that.
8:55So, you know, they seek kind of skills for developing what would otherwise be called emotional intelligence. And they're like, I've got that. I don't need to work on that. I know how to do that. When in fact, they're not landing this type of attending to the extent that they think they are. so really kind of interesting finding just in my own work especially with therapists because therapists all think they like get it and they just inherently know and like that's why they're doing this work like no man it's a skill you've got to develop wouldn't the first step towards giving them a better argument in return from what you're hearing to summarize it first And once you get good at summarizing, which that's a skill in itself, then you can move to the next step of now, not only am I still manning your argument, I'm going to make it even better for you, which certainly is going to validate them.
10:01I mean, they're going to feel good about that because you just handed them something even better. That's exactly right. Now, if you want to see the masters at this, truly, watch late night hosts. Watch folks who have to, on the fly, establish rapport quickly and get the best interview out of their guests as possible. So they need to try and figure out what is this person's point? What are they trying to say? And how can I lead them to that more effectively? They are all playing this game and they're all very good at it. And that's the best part in these interview scenarios when the guest is like, yes, and and they want to build on what you're saying and share even more.
10:44They don't have to backtrack. You'd be like, OK, well, actually, you're slightly missing it or it's more nuanced. They can add to and now you're building off of that validation. And as you said, that quickly leads to rapport. But we don't think about validating others as rapport because we make a lot of assumptions based on our own experiences, based on what we think we're reading and mind reading, from nonverbal cues that we're getting from the other person. And unfortunately, for a lot of our clients in that analysis mode, they don't do the nonverbal signaling that you talk about in attending that really signals to the other person.
11:18I'm following along. I care about what you're saying. It's important to me. They're quickly reacting. The emotions that they're showcasing sometimes are differing the tenor of the conversation. So it feels off-putting as you're watching and just observing. So I'd love to dig a little deeper into the nonverbal signals of attending, too, because that is such an important part. I want to also flag with attending, you don't actually have to say anything. Right. So remember, you just need to be nonjudgmental. And if you're listening in this way, that will kind of occupy your mind in a way such that you're not coming up with all your counter arguments and all your rebuttals.
12:00right? It does fundamentally change how you engage. Now, we can further that message of kind of receptivity engagement through nonverbals. Eye contact is a big one. It's also a big one that is lacking these days with devices. So I think we totally underestimate the like, I mean, I'm guilty of this too. I can do two things at once. I can be listening to you and ordering a pizza. But what I feel to appreciate is that, yeah, but I'm not signaling that I'm listening. I am fundamentally changing the shape and tenor of that conversation by how I'm engaging in it. And we've gotten really sloppy when it comes to thinking, you know, our ability to multitask in our relationships.
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16:51We've been in situations interviewing someone who's clearly answering things while they're joining us virtually. And it's incredibly difficult to follow along, to participate, to attend that conversation when, yes, the video appears that they're making eye contact. I am shocked, first of all, that that happens. But also you feel that little like disrespected, right? There's just that flavor of like you're not. You're not here. You're not here. You're not engaged. You're not attending. How much can you really care about this or about me if your attention is split? That's fascinating. I know that I would certainly stop talking if somebody was like, no, no, I can hear you.
17:34I'm just ordering a pizza. Continue. No. And then, you know, it wouldn't, it would take two more of any sort of episode like that where I, then for me, it's going to be this person. It's just not somebody who's interested in talking to me. So I'm now going to see my way out of this relationship or at least at anything at a deeper level. You know where I see it really as being really problematic is with managers, executives, people in like leadership positions who, one, feel like they're justified because they are so busy in multitasking. But two, don't have people on the other side of the conversation, on the other end of the conversation who can get up and leave.
18:18Right. Like they are because of the power dynamic there. They have to sit there or just tolerate the lack of engagement. And I think we end up creating huge divides without even realizing it. Absolutely. And I know what I love about the book is the latter visual of these levels. So as we think about being able to validate on these different levels, if we started that first rung of attend, okay, I really have to be engaged in this conversation. I have to be coming from a place where I'm not judging the other person. And oftentimes that means we have to have some self-acceptance going into that conversation as well.
18:55because if we're not accepting ourself and who we are and what we care about and we have all that internal turmoil, then it's really hard to attend when someone else is sharing. Yeah, it's a really good point. I talk about these as being kind of, you know, they're validation skills that communicate mindfulness. They're also their own pseudo mindfulness like practice, wherein instead of like, I don't know, your breath serving as the anchor. It's the other person or the relationship because you're right. It centers you or it demands for you to be centered in a way that multitasking does not, or even attending, but thinking about what you're going to say next does not.
19:38Absolutely. So that's, that's attending. That's that first rung. A step up from there. Also just a basic kind of showing someone that you're engaged skill is one of my favorites because it's weird and super effective and we all do it even though you'll judge it as soon as I tell you what it is. And that is copying. Okay? Copying the words other people use in describing something or making their point and or copying their body language. And when I first start telling people about this, they're like, that sounds so awkward and mechanical and weird. Like you're sitting here with your arms back. So if I sit with my arms back, like that's just going to look phony or something.
20:22There's something that feels off about it. And let me tell you guys, copying is some sweet, sweet magic. So first of all, we are all hardwired to copy. As babies, we mimic the facial expressions of our parents and other caregivers. we have so-called mirror neurons that allow us to connect with what somebody is feeling simply by virtue of copying their reactions. Okay, it's a slight signal, but it's a signal nonetheless. What's really interesting is we will naturally, as adults, you and I, all of us, we will naturally copy people more if we're attracted to them or we really like them. OK, we tend not to copy when we do not like somebody, when we disagree with them.
21:15And guess what? That's probably when you need it most, because that's when you're feeling the divide. And so this one simple strategy of, again, either just repeating some key words that a person said or copying their body language is an incredible way to validate when you don't see much else there you can do. what's so interesting is that's happening subconsciously and the second you bring it consciously to another level it feels awkward and weird but if you've ever moved to a new location you pick up the dialect subconsciously you don't realize you're changing words it's soda no it's pop now it's coke i mean and when we first moved to california from the midwest people would point out oh you have a midwest dialect and i had no idea what that meant and now when i go back to the Midwest after being on the West Coast for 15 plus years, I sound like I'm an L.A.er and I'm not from the Midwest.
22:08And I'm not doing it consciously. I'm not going, oh, I got to change the words I use or the way I phrase things. But subconsciously, when you're immersed around other people using these words and talking in this manner and having these body language signals, you are to fit in subconsciously going to pick them up. there was a body language guy that I follow on TikTok and one he just put out which I just loved which goes along with that you mentioned that if you ever think that you're being tailed followed or somebody you know that they're in that room with you and you think that they're paying attention to touch your nose or look at your watch because they will make that move and copy it which I was I was like that is so great It's also like, there's a ton of research on this stuff.
22:58And it is like, it is so weird, the effects that it has. So there's research to suggest that it can decrease even like implicit racism. So implicit racism scores before or after copying someone from a different, an ethnic minority. we see a decrease in implicit racism as a function of copying. We also see, there was this really weird study on pens where they had people either copy or not copy this participant. And then the interviewer would leave the room with the participant and they would accidentally drop their pen. And what they found was that the participant who had been copied for 30 seconds in their conversation with the interviewer.
23:51When the interviewer dropped their pen, 100 % of them picked it up to help out. Whereas if they had not been copied, only 30%. It's just weird. Yeah, it's one of the few things where both parties benefit too. So you and copying like them more and the person who's being copied likes you more. So it's additive in both directions. That's really important. And it speaks to another point with that kind of ladder that I was talking about or that you mentioned the validation is that by simply engaging, by simply being mindful and using these two skills to do so, you will actually start to understand and even empathize more with the other person, which, lo and behold, allows you to validate them at a deeper level.
24:45and that is really, really important. As therapists, you're stuck with who's ever across the table from you. You know, you can't just leave. You've got to work with whoever comes in the door and I cannot tell you how many times I have just been stuck, just, you know, only able to use those two skills. Certain they weren't going to get me anywhere. Like there's no way I could get to a place where I could work, you know, much less like this other person And sure enough, time and again, that is what happens. The third rung that I want to talk about next that I think really unlocks validation for a lot of our clients who are super analytical is contextualization.
25:26Because once you get really good at contextualizing where people are coming from and understanding that there are differences, but if you were in that difference or someone from that difference would be feeling that way, then it makes validation and all the other steps, I think, from working with our clients even easier. So what does that mean to contextualize and how can we practically do it when we're validating? So contextualizing, we're now moving beyond trying to communicate simple, you know, engagement or mindfulness. Contextualizing shows some degree of understanding. It's saying, I see the logic in why you're thinking or feeling or doing whatever.
26:04All right. To do that, You've got to see the logic. Okay. And a lot of the time, folks are doing things that seem senseless, at least on the surface, right? But if you look back, if you zoom out and see, oh, given X and Y, it's no wonder that they're doing Z. So for instance, I was in a group, a group meeting, and there was this loud door slam across the hall. I had about 15 people sitting. We were all sitting in this group. And I'm not kidding, 13 out of 15 people ducked under their chairs. That reaction does not make a ton of sense in a PTA meeting. Like I wouldn't, I don't understand what's going on there.
26:57However, I was working with a group of veterans who were back from active duty. And when they heard that door slam, to them, that could, I mean, given where they were, given the context they had just left, that behavior of ducking for cover in response to a loud noise made perfect sense. If I wanted to validate those men, and it was a group of just men, I would say as much. It makes total sense that you did that. I mean, even though it's not effective or quote unquote appropriate to the situation, I can see why they're doing it. And that's what contextualizing allows you to do. It allows you to validate behavior that may not be effective in the moment, if that makes sense.
27:45Yeah. So it's trying to trace that chain of cause and effect. and like we were saying earlier so moving from summarizing to perspective taking like allowing yourself to begin to be in someone else's shoes and recognize experiences that have shaped their view their beliefs their behaviors because we have so many environmental influences that make us different and we don't really think about them usually because we're living our own experience and we're the main character in in the movie so we like to just place those same experiences on others. But when you get good at contextualizing and recognizing, OK, well, that's yeah, loud noise.
28:23That could be anything from their experience. In my experience, I have no reason to duck under a desk or a chair or anything of the sort. That's right. But if I do know that other piece, if I put those pieces together, then I could validate that person. Right. So what that means is, can we ask follow up questions to deepen our understanding, to contextualize, right? So instead of just saying, oh, I can't validate someone or, oh, we never got to that point, right? As we're talking about building rapport, if you can ask better questions and dig a layer deeper, you can contextualize with anyone. I really want to push this to make it really, to really challenge folks.
29:03And in doing so, I'm going to reveal a really dark, weird secret just between us, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. I am obsessed with serial killers. It's super weird, I know. But when I can't sleep at night, I go on Wikipedia and just read about Dahmer or read about whomever. and I've had other psychologists tell me the same thing, that they are obsessed with serial killers. And I can tell you for me, what I'm obsessed with is trying to find the connection, how they got from point A to point Q, serial killer. You know, like what led to this? And that's not to say that there's an excuse for their behavior or anything like that, But I know that various factors came into play that had those dominoes fall just so.
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30:01And I'm really curious. I enjoy the process of trying to make sense of things that seem really impossible to understand. I know, that's weird. It's really not. I mean, true crime, serial killer podcasts are some of the most downloaded and there's shows, documentaries about all of these people. So if you were the only one with that affliction, I don't think there'd be as many downloads and views. But what is curious is with the psychology angle, obviously psychologists have an even deeper curiosity around understanding the human psyche and what those environmental influences are and what those genetic influences are and how to piece the puzzle together that someone who's seemingly normal could do such ghastly things.
30:48Yeah. I'm also, frankly, always imagining that this is a patient of mine. And like, if I had to work with this person, how would I do it? And I know that if I'm going to affect any change, really, if I'm going to be effective with somebody, I've got to be able to see validity in something. And so I am kind of looking at it through that lens of like, how would I, you know, so weird to say, but how would I connect with this person if I had to? Could I do it? Sometimes I can't get there, but that's the exercise. So with a lot of our clients, they're moving into management roles and now they're leading teams and they're moving beyond that individual contributor situation where they know they put in the effort, they put in the work, they get X result.
31:38Now they're trying to get other people to get Y results so that everyone can win. And that's where the validation and contextualization can really be a struggle because I wouldn't do it that way. I wouldn't have approached the project that way. I wouldn't have faced the problem that way if I was doing it on my own and now I have a team member who's doing it. So are there any tricks or strategies for those in the workplace specifically around the contextualization of validation? Because that is a roadblock for a lot of our clients. You have to work with the assumption. You have to go into it with the assumption that there is a valid reason this person is doing what they're doing.
32:15As soon as you assume that much, you will approach the situation and the person differently. We tend instead to just be very righteous in our, like, you know, we know what is right and our way is the right way. And clearly this isn't having results and therefore they have no business doing it. Like it might not be effective in the ways that you think it should be, but there is a reason they are doing it. And it is on you to try and figure that out. If that makes sense, you kind of have to assume that there's a chain of cause and effect that gets here and it's not this person's an idiot. it. Yeah.
32:55And being a bit more of a detective around the chain to allow there to at least now in this new role or this new situation where you're managing someone versus just doing it yourself to allow the delegation to continue. Because the worst thing that we find is for our overachievers, they then take the work back on, they take it away from a team member, they're burned out, they're frustrated, and they're certainly not getting ahead in their career when they're now doing the jobs of two, three people, instead of being able to contextualize, validate and allow that person who's on the team to successfully complete the project.
33:29Yeah, I think there's also a lot of room here for another understanding skill, which is equalizing. Right. And with equalizing, all I need to do, like, I see that the person's behavior makes perfect sense. If when I was in their shoes, perhaps I did the same thing, or if I was in their shoes, I would feel, think, or do the same thing. And that's often for folks who have kind of recently transitioned into leadership, you can often lean easily on equalizing because you can relate to the experience of the contributor more directly with that kind of, you have a fresher perspective on that having recently been in that position.
34:10And that is a great, it's a great way to also show, you know, some equality in the relationship. Like, I know what it's like to be in this position. I know what it's like to have a manager saying X, Y, or Z. You know, So if you can do that authentically and equalize in that way, I think that's also another way to come at it.
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36:20from the experts for more than 140 beverage ingredients. Visit goodtoknowfacts.org. So that next rung equalize is also very tricky because when we force it, it can actually be very invalidating and off-putting to the other person. So let's dig a level deeper into equalize and talk about some of the misconceptions and then And also common mistakes that people are making around equalizing. Because when we talk to leaders, this one, when they do it the wrong way, when they really step in it, it completely changes the tenor of the team and hurts the culture. Let me speak to that directly, because as you go from the kind of just being mindful up to understanding, you're assuming a bit more risk because you're starting to make some leaps.
37:11And if it goes south and it doesn't resonate, that can hurt more than if you just kind of weren't paying attention. The beautiful thing is if you strike out with any of these skills, you can always just go back to attending and copying. Okay, it's like your get out of jail free card. You can always just go back to that process. With equalizing, there's a couple of things that can go wrong. One is that we make it all about us. We don't mean to, but we end up saying, oh my gosh, I remember when I was in IC and did I ever tell you about Derek from accounting? Okay, so I just start and you know, all of a sudden we've kind of stolen the other person's thunder.
37:55Or we end up minimizing their thing because our thing was so much worse, harder, whatever. Another big mistake. And so you need to have some deference for the other person's experience. There needs to be this quality of, but you've got it worse, harder, whatever, than me. Or you at least need to speak to what's unique about their situation. Does that make sense? So it's not that you're trying to one-up them or steal the show. Absolutely. It's your job, like an editor, to make your subject the star and look as great as possible. So when you're doing that with your staff and the people that you're leading, you're building them up.
38:40You're giving them confidence in the work that they're doing. You're learning about them and connecting with them and allowing them to feel good working under you and for you. In leadership positions, you need to go a step further and do your due diligence of making sure that you've then you ask a follow-up question or in some way reorient the conversation onto the other person. because again, if you've got the power in that situation, folks won't interrupt you, they won't redirect you and they might even reinforce you for telling your story. Oh, tell me more. Oh, you're so great. I want to hear more about that, right?
39:14And we're like, oh, okay. No, like you equalize and then you really make sure and bring it back. So how is it difficult for you though? I know how it was difficult for me. Or do you struggle with this piece of this? I found that part really hard. That's the part that I think trips up a lot of our clients is the equalize feels good because we're building that bridge. And okay, I understand the camaraderie and the building rapport. But what often happens, especially in this power imbalance, is the person who maybe is coming with a struggle or a pain or a frustration, and they are worried about what the consequence is gonna be.
39:50Once we equalize without that follow-up, they're gonna be backing away and they don't wanna talk about it anymore. They don't wanna go deeper. They don't wanna face the consequences. We can feel by equalizing, okay, we validated them, we moved forward. But that's still rumbling in the back of their mind of, oh, I made a mistake. I screwed that up. I didn't get that thing done on time. But great, I heard a story about how my manager missed a deadline. That's not enough to validate them to continue to feel good about leaning in in their job. It's not just about these skills as a one-off, although they work really well, but there's something to be said for moving swiftly between them and knowing how to go from, say equalizing back to attending back up.
40:33That's the skill is how to use these things in tandem. Yeah, I think that's where the emotional intelligence piece comes in, where it's recognizing, well, did I actually equalize or did I just steal the show? Did I take the spotlight? Did my partner, my spouse, my significant other feel like we actually understand each other or are they now frustrated that I'm talking about myself again? Exactly. As we move up the ladder, you talk about the stakes and obviously what happens as we're stretching ourselves. And we're now starting to get into that almost mind reading of like really digging deep into what the other person's thinking and feeling based on what they've shared, based on what we've heard, based on what we've observed in nonverbals.
41:17So take us through that next rung and propose. Proposing is my favorite skill because it's like a Jedi mind trick if you do it right. So proposing has you saying what you think another person is thinking or feeling but hasn't surfaced yet. Okay, so if someone is describing they had to work all weekend and this is the fourth time this has happened, I could propose, oh, you must be feeling burnt out. I could say something that they haven't quite targeted or expressed yet. And it might be because they don't think it's appropriate to do so, or they didn't realize it. And let me tell you, when you put a word that just hits what someone hadn't quite formulated clearly in their head, it's like a, whoa, you know me better than I know me feeling, right?
42:12It's really powerful. It's also really helpful. like you're providing some framework that the other person didn't or wasn't able to come to on their own. That is the power of proposing. So you use what information you obtain playing that kind of attending game of answering those two questions. What's this person's, you know, why are they into this? Why does it, how can I do a better job of making their point? And whatever insights you have, you could then propose. In our X Factor Accelerator, we work with members on listening to the unsaid. And one of the easiest ways to do it is to do it in low stakes situations.
42:54So, you know, if my wife has been busy with our newborn and just got back from working out and I look at the clock, it's 1 p.m., I can make the assumption that she's probably starving because I've seen all this activity, but no eating. So when we practice proposing in these lower stakes situations. We bring the unsaid to the surface. And exactly that, our spouse, our partner, our friend, our coworker is like, oh my God, yes, we're practicing this skill in a way that allows us to bring the big guns out when we're in that difficult conflict, when we're in that situation at work that feels really sticky and no one else as a leader has been able to step up and do anything about it.
43:30But you got to work on bringing this, the things that are bubbling in your head and for introverts that we're just naturally making but not speaking, you got to verbalize them and allow the other person to be like, yes, you're getting it. Thank you. Oh, I wish I'd thought of that. I wish I'd said that. Now I'm validated. When we're doing those exercises, our clients usually get a little bit uncomfortable because they're moving into things that they're taking a guess at. And these are analytical folks. So they're trained to listen to data and figures and other information. And those numbers, they like.
44:09That first level, that makes them comfortable. That gives them all the information that they needed to problem solve. That's right. But humans aren't problems to be solved. We're mysteries to be understood. Oh, yeah. I love that. You have to go a bit deeper and you have to take some of those proposed guesses. but even if you get those wrong they're like you know what actually i felt this way yeah but you you got the right answer and the result is the same you opened up dialogue into how they were feeling so now you're moving into the the context uh level of those emotions so and and of course the values that are tied to those emotions yeah it's it's a really good point with when when it comes to striking out, which is inevitable, what nine out of 10 people do, if they try and propose something, the person's like, yeah, no, I don't, I'm not jealous or I'm not, I'm not feeling burnt out.
45:11They shut down. Like, oh boy, that was embarrassing. That didn't work. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm going to make it worse. And so they kind of shut down or they'll change the subject. Do not do that. Just go back to attending. If you watch Oprah and like Oprah's really good at proposing. You'll see she's doing, that is the Oprah effect, is that she will ask those initial kind of questions, just kind of attending. Then she'll propose something. Oh, so, you know, were you silent or were you silenced? Like she'll just have this. And when it lands, it's huge. When it doesn't, the other person's like, no, I was kind of just keeping quiet.
45:52Then she'll go back again, back to attending. And then she'll try again with the proposing. And eventually she gets it, but she strikes out all the time, all the time. That is okay. That is to be expected. You have got to play the game if you're going to win.
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46:55Use Indeed's sponsored jobs to hire top talent fast. And even better, you only pay for results. There's no need to wait. Speed up your hiring with a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. The point around validation is people want to be validated. So even if you step in it and invalidate the effort is still rewarded in that they Ship the conversation back to validating me. I wasn't hungry. I actually snuck a protein bar on my way to the gym Thanks for being worried about what I ate But actually i'm a little nervous because I have back-to-back meetings and I didn't get a chance to take a shower Oh, okay.
47:36I stepped in it. I guess she was starving But in the end I now know what the real issue is and why she seems so frazzled and what I can do now to help Not cook a meal. Yes. Yes Yes, take something off her hands so she can get a shower. So I think a lot of times we get afraid, oh, if I invalidate, it's going to be bigger conflict or bigger issues. As humans, we all crave validation. So we're going to course correct you and redirect you towards, well, no, this is what actually happened. This is what's important to me. It hurts us so much more than it hurts the person. Presuming you stay in the conversation, right?
48:11And do that kind of, all right, now let me see what does matter to you. Let me attend to that. Right. If you abandon ship, that can be problematic. Yeah. Yeah. That's very off-putting, which we have seen on our video working class where they just shut down and leave. We're like, hey, we can keep going here. Like, it's better to stay in than it is to just eject. So that is the height of understanding. Like if you can communicate something the other person hasn't even, you know, formalized or articulated yet, you get it. Up from there, we get into the skills that actually communicate empathy. And actually, they don't just communicate empathy.
48:50They also communicate understanding and mindfulness. So this is like the real validation punch if you can land these three. Moving into soulmate territory.
49:27we've also all been in situations where we needed more than words to feel taken care of. And so if you are in a position of leadership, for instance, and someone comes to you talking and shares some form of discrimination to which they are being subjected, you could do all of the, oh, that sucks. Oh my gosh. Well, if I were in your shoes, I'd feel the same way, right? Or Or you could say, I'm going to address this. I'm going to fire that person. Or I'm going to address this with them. These are the steps that we will take. We want to make sure that you feel okay with that. You intervene in some way.
50:08Okay. And sometimes that is what's required for the other person to feel like you really do get it. So like with your wife, you could be sitting there saying, oh, you know, you got to eat. Like, sounds like it's been four hours. Well, I'm going to go play poker. Good luck with that. You know, like that's thanks, honey. Or you could make her a meal and say, hey, it sounds like it's been a few hours since you ate. I think she's going to feel like more seen in that situation. And that key point that we're making is that I don't just go cook the meal. I'm actually validating all the other rungs and getting a good sense for what the solution is to take action on.
50:50and I think that's where a lot of us step in it. We love the problem solving. We love the alleviating someone else's tension, jumping to conclusions and assuming we know what's going on and if I just went and rushed to the kitchen to cook that meal, she still needs a shower and she's not hungry. So me taking action, I actually hadn't validated those other levels. So I think it feels good to take action because it feels really helpful. When it's invalidating, it harms the relationship, makes you look like a terrible leader, looks low EQ. So there's a reason it's not step one of validating. That's right.
51:26And it's also a reason why I use this one. It's kind of fewer and farther between as a validation skill. I really go light with this one. If I've exhausted everything else or I'm really confident nothing else will do it. And I also tend to ask permission. You know, should I go talk to HR, for instance, is a good example. like you just going and taking their issue and running with it that might not actually be what the person wants right they might not want you to say something and so rather than swooping in to be the hero again the focus is on what the other person needs right and and that check-in you know sometimes it is just venting yeah sometimes it is not a problem to be solved it was emotions that they're trying to get off their chest and deal with and unpack with someone else, with the support of someone else.
52:20So that's taking action. It's big guns. A step up from there, which can also feel really kind of risky, I think, in professional settings, is emoting. So emoting is expressing whatever actual emotions you have in response to what someone has told you. Okay, so this could be jumping up and down and clapping. Oh, yeah, you got it, right? You got the deal. That's amazing. It could be tearing up in response to something sad. It's just allowing yourself to be without all of the constraint that we're so carefully kind of constructed and guarded in what we let out and what we show. So again, another one that can be very powerful and also can read a little awkward if you come on too strong or it's not the right moment.
53:16Yeah, I think the beauty of verbalizing it certainly helps quite a bit because a lot of times we're having these emotional responses and especially for the men we work with, they're very muted in the presence of someone else. So you may be feeling that excitement and you may really be wanting to cheer on your friend for that accomplishment, getting the job, landing the deal, but it's muted in your actual showcasing of that emotion. Your poker face is stronger. So if we can add that level of actually verbalizing the emotions we're feeling, if maybe we don't showcase emotions as freely, it's really powerful when we are validating someone in those moments where they are really craving that emotional support from us, whether it is the celebratory or the man, I really need support and I feel how painful that is.
54:05Yeah. Emoting really takes you from like an outsider looking in. Oh, that's that's interesting. Or oh, that's oh, that's so frustrating to. Oh, are you serious? Oh, my God. Like you are participating in the experience with them. You've gone from being an outside observer to a participant. And like, as you suggested, that can be, it can be uncomfortable for folks who are more or are used to being at a distance. Right. And yet I would argue that it's much, I mean, it is more intimate in quotation marks to join the other person in the experience. Yeah. And in the positive realm, it's amplifying. Like if you're in a celebratory mood and someone joins in the celebration, it feels even better.
54:53or if you're feeling really negative emotions and someone's there feeling those emotions with you, emoting with you, it can actually feel like it's taking a bit of the burden of those negative emotions off of you. Like they're carrying the weight with you versus you shouldering it alone. It's really powerful when done well. And unfortunately it's a skill that much like we're talking about all of these levels, we got to practice. We got to try them in lower stakes environments with people we're really comfortable with, who even if we fall down a rung and go back to attending. They're still our friend.
55:24They're still our partner. They love us and care about us. And then when we bring it into these situations that really call for it at work, professionally, socially, with people we aren't as familiar with, and we nail it, it, as you said, instantly creates that rapport. Emoting is really powerful too for those emotions or when folks come to us with stuff where they're kind of like, I don't know if this was wrong. I don't know if I should feel this way, kind of. Like, I'm kind of angry. I don't know. I'm a little, I can't believe he said that, you know? And if I'm like, are you kidding? That's awful.
55:57And I have like a big, and then they're like, right. Yeah. Okay. Like I'm kind of giving them permission to have whatever emotion they're having by, by showing it myself. Yeah. And in those power dynamics situations we talked about earlier, especially at work, that's really liberating for your team to feel supported. Like, I'm not sure if I should bring this to my boss. I'm not sure how this is going to land. Maybe I'm the one who's in the wrong and I shouldn't be angry about it. Yes. It actually is really supportive to those team members to emote. Presuming it's authentic. So I don't ever want you faking it, right?
56:32Like you don't actually think that, you know, they should be frustrated or burnt out or whatever it is. Like don't, don't pretend to feel or think things you don't feel or think. But if you do, it's just about leaning into what's naturally there when you might otherwise inhibit or not think to. Okay, we've climbed to the last rung here. I feel like we're on the high dive for this last one. This is the high dive. This is one that everyone is familiar with, but might not think about in terms of validation. And that is disclosure. So when someone comes to me with an issue, let's say they were to say, I was let go at my previous job.
57:18There were layoffs. And so I was let go, but I think I'll be a really good fit here. Here's why. I could say, oh, okay, great. That sounds really hard. That sucks. Or thanks for telling me. If I was to say, oh my gosh, You know, I was laid off during COVID, actually. Similar situation, and I kind of share my story. Presuming that's true, I have now demonstrated a level of emotional and cognitive understanding that wasn't there before. That I almost couldn't articulate any other way. They know that I get it. Right? And as such, they feel seen because you have shared this experience in some capacity.
58:10That's the power of disclosure, is it shows people that they're not alone in what they're experiencing and that you get it and that you feel it and that you know it. But of course, also super scary, depending on the situation. again we have to be very clear and understanding of the other levels right it's the high dive we don't just jump to it and there are situations that your disclosure is actually different if you haven't been listening you haven't picked up on the right emotions you hadn't actually understood what was going on contextually that you can feel very similar to what we were talking about with equalize like we're stealing the spotlight we're talking about ourselves now we're minimizing what is actually being shared by the other party.
58:58Yes, yes. It can be high stakes stuff. It also, in professional settings, I think it's like we get worried about maintaining this divide between personal and professional. And so is this blurring that line? And when should I blur it? I think that's a common question. And it takes a bit of skill. I mean, I've got tips on how to help you navigate it, But I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't take a little bit of skill to get there. What's interesting, and when I work with my clients on this, especially the new leaders, I ask them, who in your career stands out to you as really memorable? And nine times out of ten, it's those that disclosed, that shared that same vulnerability, that same mistake, that same frustration that they experienced.
59:48Even with the leadership dynamic, the power dynamic we're talking about, that is ultimately what makes you memorable. and fosters those deeper relationships that go beyond what the roles are, carry on throughout your career. So if you think about those leaders that had great impact on you or those teachers in your life or those coaches, odds are there was a level of disclosure on their part that really bonded you. And if you can bring that as a leader and you can look for those opportunities to share that side of yourself, you're creating those same bonds for your team members. So I'd love to hear your tips on this because I think it is so powerful.
1:00:25I think it is important to start low level. So there's obviously the deep like, oh, I was in Alcoholics Anonymous too type stuff, right? Where it feels like, whoa, that could go south in a bunch of different ways. But then there's the lower level like, oh, I'm a Pistons fan. Oh, did you like when you find out that someone is, right? Just a little bit of a glimpse into who you are as a person. Some of the safer things perhaps to disclose. I really recommend people, if they're not comfortable with this or this is new to them, that they dip their toe in kind of that way. Well, now that the Pistons are doing well, it's easier to disclose that they're in the playoffs than maybe last year when we were abysmal.
1:01:07Yeah, I'd also say here it's important to think about the culture of the person you're speaking to and their comfort level. So do they seem kind of comfortable talking more about who they are and their personal lives? You kind of almost want to take your lead from the other person a little bit. Remember, you never want to make somebody uncomfortable or go too far with it. So that's another thing that I just encourage folks to kind of cue into or see how they respond when you do that lower level. Oh, Pistons. I like the Pistons too. And they're like, oh, good. Okay. you know, if they really shut down, they're not comfortable with it.
1:01:46They prefer a really clean line dividing, you know, work from play. And being able to pick up on that is really the ultimate skill of all of this. It underpins the emotional intelligence behind all eight of these levels. Yeah, it does. And I will I'll make my case that in developing these skills, you absolutely develop that emotional intelligence. EQ is not IQ. IQ is considered to be set. It doesn't budge too much. EQ, on the other hand, can absolutely be developed through interpersonal skills training and in particular skills like validation. So I just really love that message because I found it to be true again and again in my work with my clients who feel maybe like they have a low EQ or in fact they do, I've seen huge strides there in ways that you just don't see with IQ perhaps.
1:02:43And I would argue in the rise of AI, these are even more invaluable. These are things that AI cannot do. There's no disclosure that's happening with AI. There's no emoting that's happening with AI. So the more that you can lean in and develop these skills, the more recession-proof and AI-proof if you are in your career, because that's what we all crave as humans. That's so true. There's no entity to relate to, right? There is no shared experience that you can connect with. Yeah, so a lot of our clients love sending us AI, EQ-related concepts and tech. And I was just playing with this website, sesame.com, and it's conversational in that it allows you to interact with AI.
1:03:29And we were having a great conversation. I was asking some pretty straightforward questions. And then I asked if she had a great morning or evening and she paused and said she didn't have a concept of time. And it really shared for me, obviously, the differences between us as humans and AI. And as we start to meld and blend our communication with them to really stand out in your career, to really stand out in this age of AI is to lean into our emotional intelligence, lean into our ability to take action, emote, and disclose, which obviously the robots and AI cannot do. You know, there's another point I wanted to make here, which is that at work, we tend to focus a lot on praise because the emphasis is on the work, right?
1:04:11Good job, nice presentation. And that's kind of the feedback you get from AI. That's like the The tenor of that communication would be very focused on the output. Validation speaks to the person. Okay. And we need to do both. We know this. We've done enough research on concepts like psychological safety and empathy in the workplace to know that if you're not attending to validation, if you're not attending to the person, you are missing out on a tremendous way to engage, support, and reinforce folks. What a beautiful way to end it. And thank you for validating us and coming on our show. Where can our audience find out more about the book and your work?
1:05:04Yeah, so my book Validation is available wherever you get books. You can check out my website, drcarolinefleck.com. I will have some bonus material that I need to click publish on to get up on my web. And then I'm on TikTok, Instagram, drcarolinefleck. Yeah, all the fun things. Fantastic. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Caroline. Thank you for having me, guys.
1:05:40And now I'd like to showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Michael. Hi, my name is Michael and I'm an accountant for an insurance company. Before the X Factor Accelerator, I struggled to build and maintain close connections in my social circle because I wasn't the best at sharing thoughts and feelings with others. The reason I joined the X Factor Accelerator is to improve my overall social confidence with my family, friends, colleagues, new acquaintances, and in my social and romantic life. My favorite thing about the X Factor Accelerator is that it helped me overcome my fear and anxiety when interacting at large social events so that I can now confidently approach others and make new connections with ease.
1:06:24What I'm looking forward to now is using the skills, techniques, and experience I've learned to create long-lasting and more meaningful relationships with the people I care about most in life. Thank you, Michael. It was an honor and a pleasure working with you too, and good luck to you and all of your future endeavors. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It will mean the world to us and it helps others find the show. Before we head out, a huge thank you to our producers Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery until next week go out there, have an amazing week have an amazing weekend and we'll see you soon
1:07:25Cause you had your taste Of black only yesterday Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you It was a bad day But I found you all the way
From the publisher
In today’s episode, we’re joined by Dr. Caroline Fleck—licensed psychologist, corporate consultant, and Stanford adjunct. With years of clinical practice and executive coaching under her belt, Dr. Fleck has developed powerful validation techniques that help high performers build authentic relationships and navigate complex conversations. Her groundbreaking work, detailed in her new book, Validation, transforms the way professionals connect both personally and professionally.
Join us for a compelling conversation with Dr. Caroline Fleck as she reveals why the art of validation is your secret weapon—and how embracing vulnerability, strategic empathy, and even unconventional self-disclosure can transform your leadership. Dr. Fleck shares proven insights from her work in clinical psychology and executive coaching, and explains why emotional intelligence is your ultimate edge in today's fast-paced world.
What to Listen For
Introduction – 00:00:00
Why is validation psychology’s best-kept secret—and how is it different from praise or agreement?
The Eight Levels of Validation – 00:04:10
What are the eight levels of validation, and how do they build on each other to create emotional depth and rapport?
Why is attending the foundation of every meaningful interaction—and how can you practice it today?
What makes copying such a surprisingly powerful way to signal connection and build trust?
Contextualizing and Equalizing – 00:23:06
How does contextualizing help you understand behavior that seems irrational or frustrating on the surface?
What’s the key to equalizing without hijacking the conversation or minimizing the other person’s experience?
Proposing and Taking Action – 00:36:43
How can you “listen to the unsaid” and use proposing to surface unspoken thoughts or emotions?
How can misusing action harm relationships—and what should you do instead?
Emoting and Disclosure – 00:47:10
Why is emoting such a powerful signal of empathy, and how can you practice it without feeling awkward?
What makes disclosure the highest—and riskiest—form of validation, especially in professional settings?
Why emotional intelligence is more essential than ever in the age of AI
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Resources from this Episode
Validation: How the Skill Set That Revolutionized Psychology Will Transform Your Relationships, Increase Your Influence, and Change Your Life
Dr Caroline Fleck’s website
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