When Grind Culture Meets Burnout: How To Revitalize You & Your Career Path | Dr. Debbie Sorensen

26:18If the actual chronic stress that's coming from communication at work, workload, meetings, the way that people are treating each other, the culture, working out more, sleeping more, doesn't actually address what's going on in that environment. And I think, along with what you were saying earlier, it can be very difficult for many of us who are overachievers to not only ask for help, but in an environment where people are being laid off, people's performance is being judged. And we see in the economy that maybe the job prospects aren't that great. And there's a worry that if I raise my hand and say, hey, this isn't working for me, or this is a stressful environment that I'm not able to operate my best in, the simple solution for the company may be to say, okay, well, it might be time for you to find another job.

27:04Yeah. And I think that that economic framework, let's just call it that, right? This culture in which we live is a big part of the problem here because I think we're all afraid of that. We all feel like we have to earn a living, of course, and provide for ourselves and our families if we have one. And so there's this pressure to keep our job. And when that becomes the expectation and the norm, you know, and then you feel like you have to kind of keep hustling away to just to keep up. And so this is where it really is a more of a cultural problem. And people end up feeling stuck. You know, they feel like, well, what can I do about that?

27:44because I can't quit my job. Or if I don't achieve at this certain level of performance, I might lose my job. And that's really scary. And so it's a, yeah, it's really a bind for people. Yeah, and I've witnessed this in my wife's situation. And it's, again, easier, as I said earlier, to see it in others, where some of these concerns start to be brought up and the promises are, well, let's just get through the holiday season or let's get through Black Friday or we're gonna make those changes in Q1 of next year. And Q2, don't worry, we're hiring more help. and it can just feel like you're staring into the abyss.

28:17Like, hey, I raised this concern. I've tried to communicate it in a way that's team-focused, not just about myself. And the solutions just feel further and further out and don't actually feel, as you were saying earlier, get at the root of the problem. You know, free massages sound great. A little bit of extra help with childcare sounds great at the surface. But if your workload and chronic stress is at an all-time high, those are just handling some symptoms and not the root issue. Yeah, that's right. In that regard, I'm curious, would you say that burnout in these days is over or under diagnosed, even if we include self-diagnoses as well?

28:57You know, that is a great question. And I don't really know the answer to it because I do think there's a lot of talk about burnout. And I actually think sometimes people use the word burnout to describe things that aren't very severe. And there's no real criteria for this. So I don't know if it's right or wrong, but people say, oh, I'm so burnt out when they're just having a couple of rough days. And I tend to think about it as more of a chronic thing. Like burnout has a big impact on your life when it's really extreme burnout and it tends to last a while. It's kind of hard to move out of it.

29:29So in that sense, maybe it's a little bit overdiagnosed, which is that people are using that term pretty freely. But I also think at the same time, there's a lot of people out there who are chronically stressed and probably at least teetering on the edge of burnout who aren't really saying much about it. So that's a great question, Michael. And I don't know. I think we're seeing more conversations about it and more acknowledgement of it, which in my mind is a really good thing, because that is one thing that could potentially move the needle on this a little bit is for people to talk about it.

30:02And some of the conversations we're seeing in the media these days about things like, quote, quiet quitting, where people are just saying, I'm not going above and beyond at work anymore. The cost is too high. I think that those kinds of conversations are actually helpful, even though some people might have an issue with that. They don't like that concept. That's fine. But people are just talking more about it. And in my mind, that's a really important step is let's just discuss what's happening here culturally. That might move the needle more than we realize. Well, regardless of it being people identifying it and way too much or under diagnosing it, there are great tools that you've put in the book to deal with this either or.

30:49So we should get into those. And the first part of that, and we've talked about this multiple times on the show, but it's incredibly important, which is psychological flexibility. So if you can define that for our audience, so we can go from there. Yeah. Psychological flexibility. This concept comes from acceptance and commitment therapy, which is my book is an act for burnout book. I think that there's a few different pieces of psychological flexibility that are important here. It's really about being able to feel your feelings and have your thoughts come and go from a place of awareness and openness and being really present with what is.

31:31Instead of struggling against it, it's allowing it and being sort of open and aware of your inner experience. And I think there can be a bit of a transformation there when it comes to burnout, which is, again, instead of detaching or disengaging, it's allowing yourself to feel all of this, but from a place of openness and awareness instead of getting caught up in that internal struggle. And then it's also about moving toward your values and toward whatever a meaningful life is to you in an effective way. So very centered on your values and what's going to give you a sense of purpose and noticing when you're caught in some behavior patterns that might not be so helpful so that you can respond effectively to whatever the situation happens to be.

32:15And that can look like all kinds of different things. I mean, all kinds of behavior patterns that might not necessarily be helping with the problem of burnout. So in looking at those personas earlier, it sounds like a lot of those personas move you away from your emotions and give you a reason to disassociate or not engage with them, whether it be perfectionism or people-pleasing or being the busy bee. We're doing activities and taking actions that don't actually deal with the emotions that we're feeling. We're acting out of a sense of trying to fulfill this identity or trying to fulfill others' wants and needs of us.

32:51So if you're in that situation, this idea of like, okay, well, recognizing these emotions, understanding and bringing some empathy and compassion to myself around these emotions, that can feel very intimidating for someone who's worked very hard to avoid feeling and recognizing emotions. So if you're in that situation, what are some of the steps we can take to start to identify, recognize these emotions and process them in a more healthy way than getting more busy, being more of a perfectionist or procrastinating? Yeah, I mean, every single one of those examples has at its root some sort of control or avoidance component, right?

33:30So you're trying really hard to reduce your stress or to feel better or to, you know, in the short term, a lot of these things do feel better. And so the first step, you know, you really need some awareness. First, you need to notice, okay, I'm in this cycle, it's not really working for me. Maybe it is driven by some sort of control or avoidance. So having that awareness. And then here's the hard thing. This is maybe the bad news for people who are listening is you also have to be willing to face that discomfort that's showing up that you're trying so hard to avoid. You know, so you may, there may be some sense of, I don't really want to do that because the thing that's hard for me is really uncomfortable.

34:12You know, it might be stress, it could be anxiety, fear. In some types of roles, it could be, you know, sadness or just your own fears about your own abilities or something like that. And so when you're starting to shift some of this, sometimes it's pretty uncomfortable to step out of those patterns. For instance, if the perfectionist lets go and says, okay, this is good enough. I'm going to, you know, submit this and go home. They might feel a sense of, oh, I don't know, anxiety around whether it was good enough or not. And I think that can be really hard for people or the people pleaser saying no for the first time to their boss.

34:53I can't do that project. Ooh, that's going to be really painful. And so that skill of willingness to feel, that's probably the primary thing that I'm suggesting. And that is so counterintuitive as well. I can imagine that right now, everyone listening is like facepalming and going like, what is this? What are they telling me? I should feel all of that yucky stuff. I've been working years to get away from it. If I'm finally productive enough, if I'm finally competent enough, then I don't have to feel that stuff anymore. But here's the catch. If you busy yourself day in and day out, running away from that stuff, you can't move towards what is really important for you, what is really giving meaning to your life.

35:41Because most of the time, you're just trying to numb out, run away, avoid and control all of these emotions. And what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is to open the door and say, hey, look, I have a lot of important stuff to do. I know that I'm going to feel perfectionistic or anxious or stressed out about this, but why don't I allow that stuff to just sit there next to me while I'm doing those things that are very important so we don't add that struggle against the thoughts, against the emotions to our goal pursuit and our value pursuit. I think in a lot of our clients that we work with directly, anger is one of those emotions, especially as men, that they're trying to control and move away from.

36:26And unfortunately, those actions that they're taking, whether it's working hard or packing their schedule, or maybe it's numbing with some substances, the anger then spills out in other areas. It might be in your personal relationships. It might be towards your spouse. It might be towards your coworkers in a very passive-aggressive way in your communication style. And oftentimes it's really hard to identify, I'm just feeling angry about the situation that I'm in. I'm angry that I'm not achieving. I'm angry that I hadn't gotten that promotion this year. I'm angry that that project failed. And we find ourselves trapped by that anger, but it's really scary to admit that you actually are angry, especially as a man.

37:05Yeah. And I think that anger is such a fascinating emotion. Actually, as I go in on my career, I'm more and more interested in anger, I would say, because I think that, yeah, people have to use their anger effectively. I often see people with burnout who are very irritated, just very frustrated and angry. But if you ask yourself, and it can be unhelpful when people get really stuck in anger, but if you ask yourself, what's my anger telling me about what's going on here? I mean, sometimes it's just random. Like, I don't like that person cutting me off in traffic or something like that. You know, it's not that deep.

37:43But sometimes it actually can be deep. Like, if you're chronically angry in your work role, there might be some sense of injustice or there's something about this situation that's not working for me or maybe your boundaries are being violated. I actually love to tune into it in a sense of, is there some wisdom in my anger? And if you can step back from anger a little bit and get some distance from that hot, you know, adrenaline feeling of anger, you can actually use it to think about, okay, what needs to change here? Do I need to speak up about something? Is there something going on here that's just not working for me?

38:23And if so, what am I gonna do about it? With that, I think the problem that we see time and time again, and we talked about ACT, and we are huge fans of ACT, but when some of our listeners hear ACT for the first time, they hear acceptance. And it's like, well, I just have to accept the situation. I have to accept what's out of my control. And acceptance isn't actually in that definition what we're talking about here around what's causing the burnout. Sometimes accepting the things you can't change might actually mean you have to make a change in terms of changing career, changing location, changing environment.

38:55It's not just a blanket statement of, well, take whatever the world sends your way and be a doormat level of acceptance. It's certainly about creating change. If we don't accept the situation and have a radical acceptance of it, then how can we begin to take responsibility to do the things that we need to do to make those changes? And the other thing about anger, and I find it utterly fascinating, is that anger is one of the emotions that pushes you outside of your natural behaviors because it is a survival mechanism. It is there to protect you. So you're going to do things when you're angry that are uncharacteristically you, which freaks people out because they're going into the unknown.

39:43They're using behaviors that they're not comfortable with. And they're going to see a side of them that they've never seen before. And that can scare them. but I think for some, it could actually thrill them a bit as well. And so because of that, it can be scary, but if we're going to need to create change, if we're going to need to do things and go into the unknown for the first time, well, anger is a great motivator. Anger is a great place to start to push you into the arena so you can do the things you need to do. I think most importantly, though, you just don't want it to consume you to where that's all you see is anger.

40:31Yeah, I think sometimes people get so stuck in that righteous anger. And it can, as you're saying, it can feel really powerful and sometimes actually feels kind of good to be in that place. I just read a study about this recently, and I can't remember the source off the top of my head, but about how people who have a little bit of anger often will be out in the world doing important things, right? It can drive social change. So it can actually be really channeled for good, but you do have to be a little careful there because it can also get you into all kinds of trouble. Of course, I'm sure everyone's aware it can be problematic, but if you channel it effectively, it can be your friend.

41:12So when we think about acceptance commitment therapy, For our audience who may not be familiar, why do you believe it's such a great way to make our way through and manage burnout if we're actually feeling some of those symptoms and frustrations we've talked about earlier? Well, there's a couple of reasons why I really think, to me, it's the best clinical fit for working with burnout and for helping people prevent burnout, in part because it's very contextual. And so in the acceptance and commitment therapy philosophy and framework, all human behavior makes sense in context. And I think that's very much true for burnout.

41:50You really have to look at the situation and the context and what's driving it. And it makes sense to have burnout if you're in a chronically stressful situation. And so I think it actually adds a dose of self-compassion because people can say, it's not my fault. It makes sense that I'm feeling this way and that this is happening to me. And then also acceptance and commitment therapy is really about helping people engage in their lives in a meaningful way. And that's what it comes down to. That's the ultimate goal in acceptance and commitment therapy. And because burnout, one of the hallmarks of burnout is the sense of detachment and disengagement.

42:29I think the goal is the same. If you want to get out of burnout, it's because you want to enjoy your life. You want to live fully. And when you're burnt out, you're just not. And so I think that the philosophy of ACT and the goal of ACT really fits with what's happening with burnout. And we can add here, because we're using ACT so much in our coaching programs as well, that I feel like there's so much to talk about when it comes to ACT. There are six core processes of change, and we've just talked about one. We've talked about experiential avoidance or acceptance. So it's important for our listeners to not have this idea that ACT is all about exactly just one thing that make room for your emotions, but there's like five others and they're all intertwined and they work together.

43:19And I think maybe we can put a little bit of a spotlight on dealing with unhelpful thoughts. In my own experience, I found that that is something that clicks with the end user, if you will, a little bit faster because we're mostly dealing with overthinkers and overanalyzers that are paralyzed by that. and to look at the thought process that's going on and how to disarm that a little bit and make it more useful in the service of our values and our goals. Can we take a little detour and look at that facet of ACT as well, maybe? Absolutely. I think that's an important one because often people do get in that pattern of overthinking, of self-criticism.

44:07We get into some narratives around our work roles that, you know, where we might be experiencing burnout. So for instance, you know, I have to achieve to feel worthy. I can't take a break. You know, we have these beliefs that add fuel to the fire of burnout, so to speak, right? So often people are cynical, negative, fixated on blame, or I mean, all kinds of interesting things can happen at the level of your thoughts when you're in a place of stress and burnout. I mean, you know, you're up all night worrying about all the things you have to do, or just, you know, you can think of your own experience of how your thoughts are going in terms of their content when you're really stressed out, right?

44:53You don't really see things in a very balanced point of view. And so with acceptance and commitment therapy, we work on what's, they usually call it cognitive diffusion, which is about getting some distance from your thoughts, right? Seeing them for what they are, taking a step back from them so that instead of being so consumed by those types of thoughts and narratives and beliefs, we can see them for what they are. So you might say something like, wow, I'm being really hard on myself today. Or I'm really feeling like it's the end of the world if I don't get this project done perfectly on time.

45:26And we can take a step back and say, well, you know, the world will probably keep on spinning and at least see that for what it is. And there is something about the process of doing that that can be really helpful, I think, to get just a more balanced perspective on things. Because when we're in that place, it just, it feels like that's the truth, you know? And so I think that when, when people are in that place and they can start to do a little bit of that work, they can really see a big transformation. And if anyone is listening to this is wondering, what are those beliefs or narratives or feelings that they're tied to that they need to diffuse from or get some space from.

46:07Well, we went over five of those personas earlier, the busy bee, the perfectionist, the people pleaser. Now you may not think of yourself initially as a people pleaser, but if you're one of those people who is at work and you want to do all of these things so that everyone around you is happy and in a good mood and feeling good, right? That is a belief that you are holding to yourself that is creating these stressors. Yeah. And it can be so subtle. I think even the way that our work sometimes becomes a really big part of our identity and we start to think, well, I have to do a good job at this in order to be accepted or acceptable to others.

46:49So it really kind of comes down to a fundamental sense of worthiness and wanting to feel valued by others and a sense of belonging. But it can become so extreme that it's like, well, if I don't perform at the top level in this particular role, then, you know, it's almost like, then who am I? And that's where, again, that slippery slope, like it's okay to have work that you care. It's great to have work that you care about and to be attached to your work. But if you over-identify with your work role, you know, then your life gets pretty upended when that's not going well, or we lose other parts of ourselves and we lose, again, psychological flexibility.

47:29If all I am is my work role, you know, what about the other parts of my life? Right. Right. And with that, we've seen in a lot of our clients that identity take over to the detriment of relationships and community in their life. And when they join the X Factor Accelerator community or they work with us and they find other people are also going through this burnout, are also recognizing that that work identity has grown in such a way that they've let relationships slide, time with their spouse, significant other slide. They've chose to focus more on the things they can control than just be open and honest and vulnerable with people in their life.

48:04it actually creates that isolation that we talked about earlier that can be very fertile ground for the burnout and can actually make the burnout worse. And I think right now, I'm very curious as someone who sees a lot of patients with burnout, is there a seasonality to it? I found in working with our clients that there is a lot of sense of, I didn't achieve as much as I wanted to this year, or I didn't see those goals that I had. And now they're reminded of that and they're feeling really overwhelmed with the sense of dread or the sense that they didn't make the year that they wanted happen. And with that, making more and more choices that lead to further burnout or don't even recognize that part of the reason they're feeling that at the end of the year is due to burnout.

48:48Yeah, that's a good question. I definitely think that there, back to this idea of context, that there are situational factors above and beyond just the regular work that you do that can contribute to burnout. So yeah, holiday season, end of the year, a lot of jobs are very busy during those winter months. And then of course you have the darkness and the cold and that kind of thing. You know, we also live in a world where there's a lot happening in the news and, you know, that fluctuates over the course of time. And here at this particular moment that we're recording this, there's just, it's winter.

49:26A lot of people's jobs are very busy, short-staffed. And then you look at the news and read about all kinds of just really distressing, upsetting things happening. And maybe there's always some level of that, but I think you almost get into this perfect storm situation where you have these moments in time in your life where it just feels like a lot. And so absolutely, depending on the seasonal nature of your particular job, that can absolutely be the case. As much as you go on any social media and see all the incredibly terrible things that are happening at all times all around the world, how much is actually affecting you and your day to day, everyday life?

50:10Sure, you want to be involved. Sure, Or you want to feel like, hey, I have a hand in helping this or any of those things. And that's great. But at the end of the day, you have yourself and your obligations and your responsibilities that need pretty much a lot of your focus, if not all of it. Well, for many, I think the slippery slope is that escapism that the media and the news provide of like, hey, let me just scroll a little bit more. I'm feeling overwhelmed. Let me get some digital dopamine. And of course, the news headlines can be negative and compounding to that stress that you're feeling.

50:54I think for those in the audience who might be feeling this way or now recognizing it, I'm curious to hear from you what the road to recovery looks like. I know it's different for everyone, and I know it's more complex and sometimes simpler for others to untangle themselves. But, you know, when you do find patients in this state of burnout, you know, if you could just paint a rough picture of what it looks like to get yourself back to normal and feeling good and moving forward. Well, we talked about some of the internal things that you can do already. I think that sometimes it can also be worthwhile to take a look at, okay, what needs to change?

51:30How can I reconnect to what matters to me, to purpose, to vitality? And so I think sometimes we can do that in small ways and sometimes we can do that in big ways. Sometimes people want to make a really big change, like leaving their job. Sometimes people need to leave a situation, like a very toxic workplace or something like that. Sometimes people, maybe it might be a smaller scale thing, like reaching out for more support than they have been. It could be setting a boundary, like for myself, I'm not going to check the news after 7 p.m. It doesn't do the world any good for me to be doom scrolling.

52:08So that's maybe a boundary that someone might want to set, you know, or it could be taking a look at how they're using their time and making a shift there. You know, if people are finding that they're just maxed out, they might need to kind of redistribute things in terms of their schedule. And it can be sometimes some of those daily habits, like I really need to stop with the alcohol at night. That's not helping me. I need to get more sleep or I don't know, some of those little kinds of day-to-day things that can help you recharge. But the main thing I would say, if I was going to give one blanket piece of advice, really does go back to that thing we've talked about multiple times already, which is getting support.

52:50I think often when people are burned out, they're not necessarily asking for help or talking to anybody about what's going on. It could be coworkers. Maybe you need them to pitch in and help you out. It could be just someone in your personal life to say, I'm really struggling. I need some support. It could be a professional. You know, you could, if it's really bad burnout, you could reach out to get some professional help from a therapist or a coach or something. So yeah, I mean, again, it really kind of depends on your situation. But I do think one thing that burnout can do is make us take a look at what's working and what's not working and what needs to change.

53:24And from there, we can maybe get to a better place. That room for reflection around so many of those key areas, as you talked about. And I know one of the pieces that we do with our clients is look at habits and there are positive habits and there are negative habits. And sometimes those negative habits can take over, like having one too many glasses of wine that then ruins their sleep and doesn't get into the gym in the morning. and a helpful visual of, okay, what's going on with some of these habits that I've worked on? Am I letting them slide? Are they in the yellow? Are they red for a long period of time?

53:59Can really be that warning sign of like, okay, I'm putting myself vitality-wise in a state where chronic stress is really going to put me in a place potentially for burnout or actually I'm in burnout. And also recognizing that there are small steps we can take now. Maybe it's some vulnerability. Maybe it's even sharing this podcast episode with some friends to open a discussion around how you're feeling about it as a way to say, hey, are you feeling this way too? Are you maybe recognizing some of these signs in me that I myself am struggling to see? I know for me and my wife, that was really key in moments where I was really struggling with burnout, her recognizing Like, you know, I'm not the type of person in traffic to use the horn and screen obscenities.

54:43But, you know, a couple weeks in a row of me getting really bent out of shape in traffic, it's like, what's going on? Well, I'm really stressed at work and I'm really stressed that I'm not meeting the deadlines that I have for myself and letting down my team. And it's allowing me now to act out of character in traffic in L.A. You know, those are the simple conversations that we can start to have with our loved ones, too. And I know it can be delicate. Kit, I'd love to just hear your perspective on if we recognize some of these signs and symptoms in others, how can we maybe start to have that conversation to help support those around us who are struggling with burnout if we ourselves might not be feeling it?

55:17Yeah, I absolutely think so. I mean, this is where a little self-awareness, but also checking in with people who might notice the signs in ourself is really key. And so having that level, having that ability to look at yourself. I'll give a personal example just this morning. So I'm leaving on a massive holiday road trip tomorrow. I have a really long to-do list. I knew I had this interview today. I have a few clients. I'm just, and I was sitting there. I could just feel my nerves buzzing in my body and my mind was all over the place. And I said to myself, I did not have a whole lot of time this morning before my first appointment at 9am.

55:54I said, I have to exercise. It's only going to be 20 minutes. It's going to come at the cost of, you know, doing my hair and all that kind of thing. I just, I can feel the stress in my body. And so I did it. And I think that that's the moment, right, where we can maybe do something different that's going to help us recharge a little bit, help us through that situation versus my instinct would be to say, I'm going to do as much as I can possibly get done in this 20 minutes. But it's that intentionality. And so, yeah, absolutely. And I hope conversations like this one help prevent burnout because I think if you can catch some of this earlier, you don't get to that point where you hate your life, you hate your job, you're completely exhausted for months on end.

56:35That's my hope anyway, because I think I found since that period of my own life, I can catch it earlier, talk about it, make some changes, set some boundaries, take care of myself, and then it doesn't get to that extreme point. That is certainly the ideal outcome. And thank you so much for taking time with us today from your busy schedule. We love asking every one of our guests what their X factor is. What do you think makes you unique and extraordinary, Debbie? I think I'm pretty brave. I don't know if this is that extraordinary, but I think sometimes I'm willing to kind of go for it with things like, you know, starting my own podcast or just, you know, kind of putting this book out there or something like that.

57:15I don't know if it's anything I'm doing is truly that extraordinary, but I do. I think I have a certain level of courage that I'm proud of. So I'll go with that. Well, we're proud of your courage as well in writing the book. And I'm sure it's going to be very helpful to a number of members of our audience who might be feeling some of these warning signals we talked about on this episode. Well, thanks. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was great having you. Where can our audience find out more about you and the book? Yeah, I mean, the book's pretty easy to find, Act for Burnout. So anywhere you like to buy your books.

57:46I'm online at drdebysorensen.com is my webpage. I have a blog there and I'm also on some social media. And then of course my podcast, Psychologists Off the Clock, which I think is kind of a cousin of yours because we have had some overlap quite a bit, especially Michael's engagement in both. So if you like hearing the sound of my voice, there's plenty more on Psychologists Off the Clock. Thank you, Debbie. Thanks so much. Thank you.

58:21This week's shout out comes from Bauer, who wanted to write and talk about his journey through the Art of Charm X Factor Accelerator. He writes, hey, all you high achievers out there, it's Bauer. Have you ever felt burnout creeping in or feeling stuck or disconnected from your career? Well, shortly after running into my 30s, I became depressed and started dreading waking up every day into the usual grind. I felt as if the days were starting to blur into each other and I was becoming numb. Now, I had been a fan of the Art of Charm podcast for quite some time and decided that it was time to stop passively listening and start taking action.

59:01Now, I was amazed at how attentive AJ and Johnny were towards my challenges and how quickly things began to change. This program revitalized my entire outlook. It wasn't just about my career, looking at the numbers, going to work every day. It was about getting in touch with my core values. Suddenly, my career wasn't a grind. It was a meaningful journey aligned with what truly mattered to me. It helped me fight burnout and gave me a fresh perspective on my career that's in sync with who I am at my core. Even my friends have commented that I seem happier and more engaged with life. Now, if you're battling burnout or seeking a new perspective in your career, this program is your answer.

59:46You're not born to go to work and pay bills. It's about embracing a career that resonates with your values. Give it a shot and watch how it redefines your career path. Trust me, it's worth every second. Well, thank you very much, Bauer, and it has been a pleasure working with you. Now, if you've gotten value from our podcast, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It gives us visibility, helps others find the show, and it means the world to us. Now, before we head out, I'd like to give a huge thank you to our producers, Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. Until next week, everybody, go out there and crush it!

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