Why Conversations Turn Into Arguments | Julia Minson

25:44Johnny:I think the elephant in the room here is politeness. And that's what trips us up in these situations because we feel it's impolite to disagree openly, outwardly. We want to save face. We want the other person to not feel like we doubt them or we challenge them. And there's also hierarchical structures in place here at work where we're expected to act a certain way. And those politeness impulses that we have rob us of actually asking more questions and trying to get deeper into what that person's perspective is. We look for shortcuts to avoid conflict because there's uncertainty, there's doubt, and there's that emotional tension and pressure that doesn't feel good.

26:26Johnny:So we try to soften it with politeness. And that's what often makes it clunky. By being polite, we're actually making the disagreement worse and we don't recognize it. So here's a very interesting thing. That's a really that's a good tie in because a lot of what I study is what I call receptiveness to opposing views, which is, you know, how do you thoughtfully engage with other people's perspectives? How do you think hard about things you disagree with. And since we're talking about, you know, conversation and using language, the question is like, how do you express your receptiveness, right? How do I show you with my words that I'm really paying attention to what you're saying?

27:09And people often conflate that with politeness. And it's not politeness, because sometimes, like right now, we're really into what the other person is saying, and we're interrupting each other a bunch, because we're really engaged in this conversation, right? Politeness sometimes sounds very distant and cold, right? So you can be receptive while interrupting each other and cursing. You can be unreceptive by saying, thank you so much. I will take that under advisement. Like that's polite, but you're pretty sure that I'm never going to think about it. And I'm certainly not going to do anything about it.

27:48Right. There's another point to politeness as well, which is who are you being polite to? Are you trying to be polite to them or are you trying to be polite to yourself? By being polite to them, is this going to make your life that much harder, which you always do because you're unwilling to be polite to yourself, the one person that matters? because again the other person might respect you more or have some more compassion or understanding of your perspective if you were if you treated yourself well right so sometimes it's really a matter of you know people people talk because they want to be heard that is literally the only purpose of talking like i wouldn't say words if i wasn't trying to get you to hear my words right So if you show me that you heard me, if you give me a sense that you understand and you're thinking about it and you're somehow incorporating what you're hearing into your point of view, then I can stop talking.

28:52I'm done. The message has been delivered. But if you don't, then I'm just going to keep saying it over and over again because I haven't accomplished my goal of making you hear me.

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32:02Johnny:It feels like we weren't listening. It feels like we're not getting the other person. And it can start to feel like an inquisition when we're just adding all these questions to try to get to the deeper perspective getting and not perspective taking. and that impoliteness robs us of that ability to actually manage this disagreement better. And we see it all the time in our drills and exercises in the X factor, that politeness of like, well, I don't wanna get their perspective wrong. I don't want to misspeak something that they didn't say. And then it feels wrong to be corrected. It doesn't feel good when someone's constantly correcting you.

32:38Johnny:Like, well, that's actually not what I said, AJ. I said this, or I meant this. And the other side of the coin that I want to point out is politeness often leads us to saying not the full truth up front. So we will jump to conclusions with our perspective taking based on that one thing that someone said. But if you get skilled at this and you ask a great follow up question, did I get that right? Am I fully understanding? You actually create the space for them to go deeper and say the real thing that they were holding back because of politeness. And it allows you to smooth over the disagreement faster.

33:12Johnny:Feeling heard is a very big part of this, both sides to managing that disagreement. And one thing that we've seen in the video work that we do and with clients is that they can be very skilled at asking questions. They often aren't so good at listening. They make assumptions that they are good listeners based on other situations where maybe they've been tested on their memorization, their ability to follow along. And then these heightened emotional states, they go, well, I'm a good listener, so I'm just asking the right questions. and we'll solve this. But how should we be thinking about listening?

33:47Johnny:Because it's not just the questions. It's also what we hear from those questions. You can divide listening. It's interesting. Like if you really get granular with what listening is, right? So there's, you know, a person speaking, their words produce sound. The sound hits your eardrums, right? So there's sort of like a very mechanical portion to where, you know, sound waves hitting eardrums, like vibrations are happening, right? Then there's another level, which is those sound waves are getting processed in your brain and turned into meaning. Right. So you're turning sound waves into words. Right.

34:24Now, a lot of people who say they're good listeners, like you said, they are good at comprehending language and they're good at memorizing content. But the person speaking, what makes them feel heard isn't that I memorized the words you said, it's that I understood the broader message you were trying to convey, right? And a lot of that message is emotional content. It can be sarcasm, right? It can be sort of, you know, how this even relates to a prior conversation we've had, right? So like somebody could say something to me and you could memorize the words. But if that somebody is referring to an experience, you know, she and I have had before, you're not going to get any of that content from just listening to the words because you don't know the backstory.

35:18Right. So when you make somebody feel heard, it's because you show them that you sort of get it in this other like extra way, which has nothing to do with either your eardrums or your brain processing sounds and words.

35:33Johnny:So what can we do practically to strengthen that muscle and not just focus on the memorization and comprehension of the words? There's a couple of bits to it. So I have a book coming out called How to Disagree Better. and I very much share your guys love of like exercises and drills. So in the book, there's a lot of, you know, every chapter has like very concrete things that people can do to practice the different skills. You know, and we talked a little bit about question asking and rephrasing, which I think, you know, is in some sense, very common advice. But on the other hand, is advice that nobody carries out because in a disagreement, you don't want to be the other person's therapist, right?

36:21Like, like you didn't sign up for that job, right? You are also a person with an opinion and you also want to state your piece. So I think where a lot of it falls apart is that people ask questions and let's say they ask decent questions and let's say they paraphrase and like really understand where the other person is coming from. But they often give up on that process because they want to talk too. And then when they get to talking about their perspective, that's when the wheels really like go off the apple cart because, you know, you start arguing again, right? You forget that the other person and like this whole thing you just learned about them actually exists.

37:06So a lot of what my research is, is how do you show engagement with the opposing perspective? even when you are actually arguing for your own side.

37:16Johnny:In a lot of those situations, we then default to, well, my intention is good. Like I intend to understand the other person. I intend to treat them fairly, to recognize their perspective while still arguing for my perspective. But those thoughts are invisible and irrelevant. Like your intention in this is not going to solve the disagreement. it. Yeah, I like I like how bluntly you put that in invisible and irrelevant. Yeah, so a lot of the a lot of the work we have done is on an idea we call conversational receptiveness, which is like how you show your receptiveness to the opposing perspective with words and conversation.

37:59And the way we did this is basically, you know, imagine you paired up thousands of people to have disagreement online. And so they're all paired up with somebody they disagree with, and they all have some conversation about some controversial topic. We take the transcripts, and we essentially use machine learning to figure out what are the words and phrases that make some people sound like they're engaging with the other person's argument, even as they're making their own argument, right? So like there's no body language, there's no facial expressions, it's just words. And the question is like, what are the right words that make you sound receptive in disagreement?

38:48And so then through machine learning, we're able to identify sort of like the right words and phrases and then train people on them. And again, drill them on it so that they get used to it to get that feeling of engaging with each other's views, even as you're making your own argument.

39:06Johnny:So what are some of those words and phrases that stood out? Oh, I thought you'd never ask.

39:15You know, so the way machine learning works, right, is that you get just a giant list of words that sort of, you're like, huh, words, okay. And then where actual psychology comes in is that you have to think about which ones kind of go together and fall into kind of themes and categories. And so we organized these into these categories that we call receptiveness features. And then we took the most important receptiveness features and turned them into a snappy acronym. And the acronym is HERE, as in I hear you, right? It's like, it's very on brand. It's all about, It's all about acronyms. So the H, H of the letters in here stands for something.

40:01The H stands for hedging. So hedging your claims. So, for example, words like sometimes, maybe, possibly, right? I could say the COVID vaccines are safe and effective, right? Or I could say most physicians tend to believe that COVID vaccines are largely safe and effective. I basically said the same thing, right? Like I expressed my confidence in the COVID vaccines. But in the second version, I shoved three different hedges into it, which is a lot of hedges. The E stands for emphasizing agreement. So it's phrases like, I also want to, or we are both interested in, or I agree with some of what you're saying.

40:51And so the idea here is that we're not actually trying to compromise, right? We're not trying to reach consensus on an issue. It could be that it'll take us, you know, many conversations or, you know, many years to reach agreement on something. But in every disagreement, there's some stuff we kind of agree on. And so identifying what those things are and trying to kind of like highlight them puts us on the same page, right? Puts the two speakers like on the same side of the table. So I could say something like, we both want to work in a company where all employees feel respected for their contribution.

41:33That's hard to disagree with. Like, I'm not giving up anything. I'm just sort of stating a human value we probably share. um the a in here stands for acknowledgement so acknowledgement like if you've ever been you know in therapy it's the one you've probably heard of uh and it's the idea of acknowledging the other person's uh perspective before you start arguing for yours it's things like i hear you're saying X, Y, Z, or I understand that it's important to you that, or it seems to me that something, something, right? And so the thing with acknowledgement is most of us have heard about it and most of us are really lazy about it.

42:20So what people do is something like, I hear you, but here's why we can't open another position in accounting, right? What we want to say is something like, I hear that everybody in accounting is really overworked around annual close and you are concerned about the burnout of your staff. And also Sherry is going on maternity leave, which is going to make it that much harder this year. but we can't open another position accounting for this reason and that, right? So the outcome is still the same. Like we still can't open another position, but I have shown you sort of clearly and vividly that I was actually listening when you were talking about Sherry going on maternity leave, right?

43:10Like I have internalized that piece of information and I know that it's important to you. And then the R stands for reframing to the positive. So that essentially means that we try to drop some of the contradictory words, no, can't, won't, don't, and try to drop some of the like very negatively valenced words like hate or terrible, and replace them with more positively vain on sports, right? So instead of saying, I hated when people don't let me finish my sentences, right, I could say, I really appreciated when people let me finish my sentences. Right, same deal. Like I'm saying, don't interrupt me, but in a very different tone.

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45:01Johnny:Now, what stood out to me is there is no facts and data in what you shared. And I think many of us, especially the listeners of the show, are very analytical. They're used to building slides and showing all the data of everything that they have to back up their perspective. And in actuality, that is not what is happening at all. You're building a narrative. And what I'm hearing through the HERE acronym is that narrative is a we positive narrative as we work towards a resolution. That has to be seen by the other person. When we start throwing in butts and we start coming from a negative place and we try to overwhelm with facts and data, we don't actually solve the disagreement and it leans more towards full-blown conflict.

45:46Johnny:But I think it's hard for many of us to wrap our head around because we work in an information-driven job. We are expected to handle a lot of facts and data and make decisions around it. And then we think, let me just insert those facts and data in my conflict and let me resolve this and move on to the next set of facts and data I need to work from. The folks who are doing the analytics and the facts and building their slides, they're advisors, where the people who built the company built it through intuition. So they're feelings. They build it on feelings. So your facts are advisements and their intuition.

46:27One way or another is going to disregard your facts if they don't feel good about it. So presenting your facts in a story that they can vibe with is is going to be much more powerful. Most people, when they talk about disagreement, right? they think of it as a competitive interaction. And if you think about the words we use for disagreement and conflict, right, we talk about winning an argument, we talk about defending a position, we talk about, you know, mounting, you know, mounting evidence, right? It's like very martial, right? Like all these words have to do with war. And of course, most of the time, the reason we're disagreeing with a person is because we want to achieve something together, Right.

47:17Like we're in a company or we're on a team or, you know, we are running a family. We're not actually trying to, you know, sort of stomp all over them. And so if you're going to get them to hear your facts and data, you need to make them not feel like a loser as a result. Right. If your whole point is I'm going to sound smarter than you and drown you in facts, they're not like they're going to do whatever they can to not feel stupid. but people don't like feeling stupid. Here's some Harvard science for you guys. People don't like feeling stupid.

47:52Johnny:Thank you for doing that research. I'm glad you brought that up because even when I make content around this subject, my comments get filled with people who are, I will win you over with my facts. I don't care what, and like, you're not getting it.

48:15And I'm a strickler for data like anybody else. But again, when you build stuff, you're pulling data that feels good. You have a gut intuition from doing something over and over and over again and starting to see success that that data may or may not back up. And I think for a lot of people who are working with AI now are, are start, are starting to have an understanding of that because they're like, great. I have all the data in the world that, that I need now. But even Claude asked me, does that feel right to you? Does that track right to you? Like, well, you're the one to tell me this and that.

49:01And then of course, you know, I'll, I'll ask it stuff. I'm like, Hey, that's really nice. Can you give me the source where you got that? or give me the where you're pulling those numbers like oh well I kind of I pulled them out of the sky and so anyone it's thinking hearing the message that Clyde is now sent yet well I don't know what version they got because mine not cutting it well you know here's what's really funny right is that I you know again as a researcher like I work with a bunch of nerds I'm a huge nerd myself. And so we actually we actually did a bunch of studies on this question of should you persuade people with stories or should you persuade people with data?

49:45And I think the question that people often forget to ask themselves is sort of who am I talking to and what's the purpose? Right. So if I'm presenting to, let's say, a panel of investors and they come in with an open mind because, you know, they'll invest in me or they'll invest in, you know, the next person pitching to them, facts and data are great, right? Because they are objective, unbiased people. But if I'm in a conflict, and the other person has their own opinion, and they think that I am biased by my own self interest, and I have an agenda, then when I present data, it sounds like I'm maybe twisting the facts, right?

50:30Like I took my data, and I, you know, did funny things to the spreadsheet, right? And so what we found in the experiments we've run is that you can make the same exact argument using accurate facts, you know, back it up with studies, or you can tell that argument in terms of a personal story. and when the when people use a personal story to argue for a particular perspective they're seen as more trustworthy so you know people just sort of like especially the personal story is a little bit vulnerable if it's about a difficult time you've been through or about a failure people are reluctant to believe that you just made it up look to be highly effective you need to speak both languages.

51:22And to answer your question with that, this is we demonstrate, show, and practice our clients how to identify what the person they're talking to needs to hear in one conversation for you to be effective. Their language will tip you off. And if you're practicing that skill, you will be highly effective at it and you will be efficient and getting what you want.

51:51Johnny:There's another part of this military speak that comes out with leadership, right? So once we start to arrange ourselves in a hierarchy, we feel as a leader, we can't show doubt. We can't show that we didn't hear that person. We can't show that we were wrong. And unfortunately, what that leads us to do is avoid hedging completely. We want to come of the gate just saying like, this is how it is. Like, I got the facts and data. I got the perspective. This is what my manager wants. So as a leader, it feels uncomfortable culturally to show that doubt and to hedge when other people are looking up to us.

52:30Which is, you know, again, funny because that's what we've always been told. And it's kind of wrong. There's a lot of good research that shows that showing uncertainty uncertainty and changing your mind even as a leader leads to some very positive judgments, right? You know, and here's like, here's a thought experiment, right? So imagine you wanted to express, imagine if you're deciding how much uncertainty you should express, okay? And you say to me, Julia, how many kids do you have? Okay. If, well, I have three kids. If I said I have some number of kids between two and five, that would be pretty weird, right?

53:18You'd be like, uh, too much. Why are you hedging? If you said to me, Julia, how many inches of snow are going to fall in Boston next year, and I said 27.4, you would say that's crazy. That is the definition of overconfidence, right? Like you do not have a crystal ball. You have no idea how many inches of snow are going to fall in Boston next year, right? And so you are claiming a level of certainty that is frankly bullshit. And we should not put you in charge of snow removal, right? So different situations call for different levels of uncertainty and being appropriately uncertain is what makes you sound competent.

54:08Johnny:It's hard in many of these contexts where we've seen other leaders demonstrate overconfidence and feel like they were compensated for that overconfidence when they hit the nail on the head that we then feel we have to demonstrate the same level of confidence in order to get people to follow us, in order to get people to fall in line and drive forward, especially in organization. And I think we often equate maybe with weakness, like, oh, it's a weak position to take. That's what psychologists call survivor bias, right? Because we see all the leaders that got promoted for overconfidence. We don't see all the leaders that got fired for overconfidence because they got fired.

54:50Johnny:There's far more, actually. Right. And every one of those overconfident leaders who didn't get fired is one overconfident step away from getting the same result. Exactly. So I do think that we get some sort of, you know, especially young people who are like, just starting their careers and just thinking about leadership and you know, whatever, getting their advice from TikTok, like some of them are getting terrible advice. And there is some great behavioral science out there that they could be consuming instead. Let's talk about this as we wrap here, because I feel like many of our listeners are consuming that same content and feeling that the world is more polarized than ever.

55:30Johnny:I don't share that belief. I think the content that we're consuming leads us to that reality and that belief. And because of that, we're not even attempting to solve disagreements. We're going straight to full blown conflict or cutting these people out of our life, saying you're undateable. I can't be friends with you. I don't want to work in this environment because you share a certain viewpoint. So what do you say to those listeners who are feeling this polarization and saying, OK, I love to hear framework, but I can't do that with someone who's across the political aisle or someone who has this crazy worldview on vaccines, etc.

56:03I'll do the typical academic thing and say you're both right a little bit. So there's a lot of data that we are more polarized than ever, but we are not nearly as polarized as we think we are. Right. So like it's bad, but we all think that it's worse than it is. And, you know, there's a there's a terrific think tank called More in Common. And they have they did a research project a few years ago called the Perception Gap Project. And you can go it's like perceptiongap.org. What it does is it asks you, let's say, what your political affiliation is. and then it asks you for your opinions on a bunch of topics.

56:48And then you have to guess the opinions of the other side. And then the website sort of crunches all the data and shows you here's the real opinions of the people on the other side. And here's what the people on your side, including yourself, guessed. And so what you see is both liberals and conservatives are like wildly pessimistic about how bad things really are. Because people on both sides are actually more moderate by far. And then the more strong you are politically yourself, the worse your estimates are. So people who are on the extremes think that everybody is on the extremes. And that's just not true.

57:37Right. And that's a little bit part of naive realism, right? Like the thing we talked about in the beginning, how I think I get it. Like, well, if I think that everybody is extreme, then that, that shapes my views of the world. And that makes me approach conversations in a particular way, which is usually pretty, you know, pessimistic. But, you know, people actually want to talk like, you know, what I often tell my students, and this is an assignment I give in class, you know, regularly, the assignment I give them is find a person in your real life that you strongly disagree with. And you have to talk to them for 20 minutes.

58:19And, you know, it can't be like email or text. It has to be a conversation. So, you know, pick up the phone or, you know, set up Zoom or go show up in person. And the goal of that conversation is for you to understand why they believe what they believe. And so you can express your own point of view, but only sort of like in the service of helping you understand their point of view better, not to argue. And, you know, and then of course they have to do it for class, but they can't dodge it. And they have to write a paper about it. And I hear some like incredible experiences. People have sort of like truly profound experiences because they've never done this before.

59:02And what they often find is that the other person really loves that they finally approach them and ask them about their beliefs. And that other person wants my student to come back and thank me for it, which is really, really very interesting.

59:21Johnny:What I find so fascinating about that exercise is that it doesn't mean you have to change your beliefs. It doesn't mean that you have to come to some sort of agreement on what the disagreement is, but just seeking to understand is the place of finding common ground. So when you say everything is so polarized, I can't find common ground. You're not even trying. You're not even seeking to understand where that other person's perspective is coming from. Common ground is great, but the goal should not be common ground. The goal should be understanding the other person in a way that they would say, yeah, that's right.

59:58You got it right. You understand me now. That should be the goal.

1:00:02Johnny:Well, thank you so much for joining us, Julia. Where can our audience find out more about all of your great research in the book? So my website is disagreeingbetter.com. The book is called How to Disagree Better. It's It's available for pre-order now and it will be in your inbox on March 24th. Thank you so much. Thank you guys. This was great. Thank you.

1:00:35Thank you for listening to the Articharm podcast. And now comes a part of the show where we showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Boris. My name's Boris. I'm a senior software engineer. I was born in Europe and moved to the United States 10 years ago. There was a time when I was lacking sense of community and belonging. I chose the Art of Charm program because I wanted to advance my career and build a personal circle of people with similar values. The program made me view people around me as doors to new opportunities. That person at the conference can refer you to your next job.

1:01:13That stranger at the coffee shop is a gateway to your new hobby. That passenger on the train is your significant other if you make the move. I recommend to take a step and sign up for the Art of Charm program. I will see you at the AUC Family Reunion. Thank you, Boris. It was a pleasure and honor working with you two. And good luck to you and all of your future endeavors. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It would mean the world to us and it helps others find this show. Till next week, go out there and make it charming.

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