Why You’re Afraid to Open Up | Leslie John

11:36Johnny:With that, I think a big part of it is also extending your emotional vocabulary.

11:41Leslie John:A hundred percent.

11:41Johnny:Because if you're using the same emotions over and over again, I'm happy, I'm sad. Yes. It becomes less connectable to those who've heard these stories from us. So if we're trying to get extra vulnerable with people that we're already close with, that's usually the safest place to start, add emotional vocabulary. What is that anger? What's behind it?

11:59Leslie John:Yes. So I'm also a recovering emotional illiterate. A lot of confessions today. You're revealing a lot. A lot of recovering, a lot of growth, all the things. So I, you know, I think it's my generation of growing up was, you know, also like stiff upper lip. Nobody really, nobody talked about feelings. I mean, I had a wonderful childhood. I'm super grateful to my parents you can't get everything right and coming from their generation was even more guarded so so I did not I learned only like in my 30s that I did not have a good emotional vocabulary for example I was talking to my therapist and and he said well what are you feeling and I kept listing thoughts he's like those are cognitions what are you feeling I'm like sad and it was just so basic the emotions and then he literally I have one in the book handed me an emotion wheel which is such an amazing tool so you start in the middle the core is like the basic basic emotions like sadness anger joy there's there's kind of four basic ones and then it and then it breaks out you can get distilled further so he's kind of like choose your own adventure like hmm I feel angry and then then you can refine it the more you go out you can refine it and that process of articulating your feelings, putting them into words, even if no one's listening in and of itself is super, super helpful to you because it's like a different, instead of the lizard brain animal part of you being like, oh, ruminating and freaking out.

13:38Leslie John:When you have to put those feelings into words, it activates the prefrontal cortex, the logical part of your brain. So it literally gives you an outside perspective, which helps you calm down.

13:50Johnny:And they're universal. They're universal. So if we talk about vulnerability, what is universal to all of us is that emotional wheel. Yes. We've experienced all of those or we will experience all of those emotions. So if you want to be more charismatic, if you want to connect with more people to be able to extend your emotional vocabulary, that's that piece of vulnerability that actually creates connection. We might have different stories of how we got here, how many kids we have, what the experience has been with a colicky baby, not peaceful baby, whatever that is. But the emotion tied to those experiences, everyone can relate.

14:22Johnny:Even people listening who aren't parents can relate to feeling that emotion.

14:26Leslie John:Completely, completely. Yes, absolutely.

14:28Johnny:So I always say with our clients, like figure out the emotion, start there and then paint the picture behind that emotion. And now you've got a great story.

14:37Leslie John:Yeah, yeah. And the other thing about the story is that when we tell stories, because we're so natural at doing it, there's naturally some kind of sense to it. There's a challenge. There's an ending. It doesn't necessarily have to be a happy ending, but there's some kind of ending. And that process of narrating your life, kind of putting a story on it, helps you make sense of it. And it helps you get through difficult things. And it's, of course, not just about getting through difficult things. You also, when you can better articulate your emotions, you also, I have found it's easier to relate to others and you can empathize with others better, right?

15:14Leslie John:Because you have a more sophisticated view.

15:16Johnny:And you just attract more people to you when you have that larger emotional vocabulary.

15:21Leslie John:Yeah, totally.

15:22Johnny:Because when you pick on one of those refined emotions that really strike the chord when someone hears that, they're like, yes, me too.

15:29Leslie John:Yeah, that one, totally. That exact thing. And then they feel so understood. And when we feel understood, that is such a powerful connector. In fact, there's fascinating studies on how people would rather feel understood warts and all than kind of idealized. So there's studies of marriages where, so suppose my husband, suppose I have low self-esteem, hypothetically, and my husband realizes that. And he's like, Glass, I know you have low self-esteem, like recognizes it. versus the situation where my husband says, you are such a power boss. Like you're like always confident. You're amazing. That the marriage is where the spouse actually really, really gets the person and the person knows that they get them.

16:18Leslie John:They're actually longer lasting than those where the spouse just kind of idealized. So really feeling understood is such a powerful connector.

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19:14Leslie John:Right. But if you're hearing someone else's story

19:16Johnny:and you pick up on that emotion and you with your emotional vocabulary can call out that emotion. They feel understood. They feel validated.

19:25Leslie John:And then what are they going to do? Then they're going to open up to you more. And then we're going to do the dance of reciprocity where one person shares another shares and you kind of gradually deepen as far as you want to go. Right. And there you're off to the races.

19:35Johnny:So that to me kind of gets at the core of like, how do I expand my ability to be vulnerable, getting in tune with those emotions and being

19:43Leslie John:able to communicate completely those emotions completely um yeah so i think self-awareness is number one which is i i don't say that in a glib way because it it really is it it really is fundamental and it's actually harder than it seems to become self-aware right we need that that's a whole other thing but then once we're self-aware how do we actually get it out and express ourselves and how do we take that risk and i think what i want people to know is we are so scared of TMI, right? That like gut-wrenching disclosure hangover, the like feeling the next day of, oh my God, I said too much, which also you're welcome.

20:25Leslie John:There are stories of that in there. And so we live in fear of TMI. And so when we're thinking, even if we're considering opening up, which we often don't even do, but suppose we're already there and we've listen to this podcast, we're a client of yours, and we're thinking, okay, I make all these decisions, maybe I should open up more. The tricky thing is that we don't consider these decisions, right? I'm a decision scientist nerd. We don't consider them in an even-handed way. We massively overweight the risks of revealing. When I put people in situations and I ask them, hey, you're struggling with ADHD.

21:02Leslie John:If you tell your boss, you'll get a combination. Should you tell your boss, hey, you have a sexual fantasy, should you tell your partner? Whatever the disclosure dilemma, right? These are things that we don't know whether to share it or not. Then when I say, what's on your mind? The number one thing, like by a landslide, is the risk of revealing.

21:19Johnny:Absolutely.

21:20Leslie John:Right. Of course, it's relatable. What people don't consider, they don't consider the benefit of the revealing. The upside. They don't consider - Your partner being into it.

21:26Johnny:Right. Your boss being like, oh, absolutely, me too. Being understood.

21:29Leslie John:100%. And the risks are real, don't get me wrong. You almost completely neglect the downsides of concealing the rumination, the fact that your partner won't understand you, that there will be this distance between you, the fact that you're going to be flailing at work and your boss is just going to think you're incompetent as opposed to, hey, you can perform like a badass when you have the support. Right. So so and it's because there's something deep in our brains, the way our brains work. I actually went right into like neuroscience on this because I'm like, interesting rabbit hole, rabbit hole.

22:00Leslie John:And our brains actually are wired to make us overweight the risks of opening up. And so what we need to - Keep us safe. Right, right. But what we need to realize is that silence is not safety. Silence is just as risky, right? There's so many harms that come from not sharing. And so I think the more you realize that these are decisions you face all the time, the more you can experiment with being just a little bit more open. Because when you do that, you will then see the benefits. And then you realize, oh, if I stay silent, the risks are I miss out on all this good stuff. So one, for example, one easy way to start, because I know like, talk about your feelings.

22:46Leslie John:That's a bit heavy to start with. I mean, now I'm like, I will talk about feelings forever. My children, my boys. I'm like, I think I'm doing the opposite. You always screw your kids up in some way. I'm screwing them up, but it will be a different way. It won't be the same way I'm screwed up. We're course correcting. Right. Maybe overdoing it, but that's okay. What are you feeling? It's okay. But no, sorry. Feelings got me all worked out. So, okay, an easier way, kind of a nice low-hanging fruit to try starting these things is something that we often undershare in real life, this is all real life, is praise.

23:20Leslie John:so think of like all of the things you admire of people that go unsaid right and so even saying I said to a new acquaintance at a dinner I said I like you you know so that's vulnerable right we never do that but that's a great way to start sharing praise because it's not that risky and it's almost always you know unless it's something sexist or whatever we're gonna not do that but it's almost always well received. Absolutely. Right. And then then you once you feel it, you have to do it. Doing it is believing. Right. You can't just be told to share more. You have to do it. And then you start realizing, oh, wow, if I tell my husband what's really on my mind and that it bothers me that he's so neurotic about the toilet paper being put on the right way, just saying, then if I tell him that, then we can we can work through it and we can come to a better agreement.

24:16Leslie John:And then I can understand also why he cares so much about that. And then I realize, oh, it's important to him. So maybe I shouldn't be such a jerk about it. Right. So it all starts with and I give the toilet paper example because it's it's often like the most mundane, silly things. They seem silly. And then we censor because we're like, oh, it's just the toilet paper. I'm overreacting. But no, your feelings are valid. And if it keeps coming up, like talk about it.

24:40Johnny:I think in that vein for a lot of us, these these stories. Right. So recognizing that story is now conveying emotion. Yeah. There's a recency to them that carries a lot of vulnerability. Yeah. So my business partner, Johnny, always says, either you're sharing your story or someone's writing your story for you.

24:57Leslie John:A hundred percent.

24:57Johnny:So when we withhold from our boss, we're not sharing that story. He's writing the story that we're a low performer, that we're not paying attention, that we don't care about our work. Yes, yes. Versus us writing the story. No, I care so much about my work that the struggle with ADHD is impacting it. And it's important that I let you know that. Totally different story.

25:14Leslie John:Yeah.

25:14Johnny:But every one of us as humans, we are writing stories about other people. We are not looking at their numbers, their data. We're writing stories about them. They are this person because I experience them this way.

25:23Leslie John:We do it so effortlessly without even realizing it. I love that reframe. That's a great reframe because it's like if you don't tell your story, someone else will.

25:31Johnny:And then that story for you, OK, maybe the recency of it has a lot of impact. Like, oh, if I share this vulnerability, I'm going to be judged because this just happened yesterday. So maybe for you, the challenge is we'll share a story from your childhood that we all we've passed. It's slightly embarrassing. Right. And we can all have some fun with it because we've all been there.

25:49Leslie John:Exactly.

25:50Johnny:And that creates an opportunity for vulnerability. That's maybe not yesterday or last month. Right. You feel more harshly judged.

25:56Leslie John:Yes. And it's not so raw. Yeah, completely. Yeah.

25:59Johnny:Now, let's talk about some phenomenon that that we've experienced with our clients who try to join the online dating sphere, the rise of online dating. love this topic and and how oversharing is often regarded as a way to meet the right person to find the right match but science actually says something different here yeah so yeah all the

26:19Leslie John:dating tips I love it um okay so and I I was as I well I had already found my prince charming when I wrote this but like I was going back to my dating days when I was in my mid-30s so I'm studying I'm a huge disclosure nerd and I'm studying this stuff and I'm going on dates all the time. So I'm thinking like, what should I put on my profile? How much? What's too much? What's too little? And it turns out that, yeah, some of our instincts are a little bit wrong here. In the beginning, when we're writing a profile, when we're trying to attract a mate at the very beginning, less is more. And the tendency is often, right, to kind of like put it all, throw it all and hope something sticks, right?

27:01Leslie John:But the problem with that is what's called a dissimilarity cascade, which means that when you put a lot of stuff about yourself, a suitor will see stuff that they can relate to, the things that they're similar, because it turns out similarity breeds liking more than opposites attract. Opposites can be fun for short term, but let's assume we're looking for long term. Okay, so they see stuff that's similar, great, but then they see stuff that they can't relate to, that's dissimilar. And it turns out that dissimilarity at the beginning looms larger than similarity. Dissimilarity is more of a turn off than similarity is a turn on.

27:38Leslie John:So you can see that the more stuff you have, the greater the chance for these dissimilarity cascades. So you want to have fewer attributes, something that's fairly unique, but probably well received. Obviously photos matter too, but that's a whole other thing. But then the other thing I think that people only, so studies have looked at dating profiles. I love my field of science. Is it science? It is science, but it's also fun. It can be science and fun, right? Yeah, and fun. Yeah, okay. So only one of the things that distinguished the profiles that got more hits than the ones that did not was the ones that got more hits, in addition to having less information, they expressed some kind of interest in getting to know the other person.

28:24Leslie John:And it was 1 % of profiles on average that did this. And by that, I mean, you're like, how do you do that in You say like, oh, I'm into historical nonfiction. What about you? What books do you like reading? So ask a question. And that is great because it signals you're interested in getting to know the other person. You're not just being like, please take me, anyone. And so it also signals that you're discriminating, right? You want to be with people that are picky, right? Because you want to feel wanted and like you're special. And so those are some really good signals. So then what they did in these studies is then when they got people to edit their profiles and do this, they got more dates.

29:09Leslie John:So that's at the beginning. The other way that people go wrong at the beginning is they get into these like text banters, right? They just text and text each other. And when you do that, because you're really motivated, because finding a partner is a primal thing, Our minds go crazy and they like fantasize and they they fill in the blanks of how amazing this person is in all ways. So the longer you do this and you haven't met them, so it's ambiguous. So your brain is going crazy and making shit up. When you meet the person, you're more likely to be disappointed. Right. And and this isn't actually the person.

29:50Leslie John:Right. When you're when you're texting.

29:52Johnny:It's the trap because vulnerability over text is so much easier.

29:55Leslie John:Exactly. A hundred percent. There we are full circle. That's the trap. And so what you need to do is you need to go and meet the person. And you can be ruthless, too. Like, I was a little bit ruthless. You know, mid-30s, my eggs weren't getting any younger. So what was ruthless to you? Sorry. You are an enlightened bro. You've come around. Full circle, yes. Exactly. Dad. I can say that. Exactly. Exactly. So, OK, so I would, you know, I would arrive and see and I'd walk past the bar or the coffee shop and I'd look in. And if the person was not as advertised, I'd just keep on walking. Like, so you have to have like kind of a real a good good photo of yourself, but but realistic.

30:42Leslie John:And that's OK. Like, it's OK if if someone is misrepresented. They misrepresented. You don't owe them anything. OK, so then should we go to dating or do we have more thoughts? I can see your thought bubbles.

30:56Johnny:Yeah, there's a happy middle here. Yes. Right. So there's the guys oftentimes in these apps will rush to just put anything up and get to the swiping and the matching.

31:05Leslie John:Yeah.

31:05Johnny:And then there's no vulnerability. And they're just like every other generic person who likes beach and enjoys the sun. And yeah, has read a book. OK, well, so is everyone. Right. So there's there's too little information that's not going to get you the right match. And then there's too much information that's going to create the dissimilarity. So what should we choose to put out about ourselves that it's going to spark enough vulnerability but not? Right.

31:29Leslie John:That's a great question. I think one thing that I found helpful was actually giving my profile to a very dear male friend of mine. OK. And being like so. So he caught up on. So, for example, I had the word quirky and he's like, quirky, not good. Yeah. And so if you have again have have a really close friend who can be like, oh, those are like there's you want to go for like alluring traits, like curiosity inducing. Or maybe that's not you.

31:59Johnny:Like maybe that's not how they would describe you. Right. Oftentimes we have a bias of ourselves that might not be totally attractive to other people.

32:06Leslie John:Completely. Completely. You're right. We have our own. And and so if you can have something like, you know, ask me about my favorite ice cream flavor. That's lame. But something a little bit more curiosity inducing. That's also alluring. Right. In a profile. So that's some. And then you can also experiment. Like I view getting these decisions right as a campaign. It's not a one shot. Like I literally experimented when I was online dating. I would try different things of saying. And I actually had a spreadsheet, but you don't have to go that far. You were split testing your dating profile. I think, you know, it was like it was a safety blanket.

32:44Leslie John:It was a way of coping for me. Right. Of putting structure on a really hard, uncertain. Well, that's the nice part about it.

32:49Johnny:When you actually go to the spreadsheet route and it becomes data, it's it's less personalized. Yeah. You're not feeling personally rejected. It's like, oh, that my profile got rejected. All right. Let's swap. Yes.

33:00Leslie John:Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And then.

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36:19Leslie John:Do we want to keep talking about dating?

36:21Johnny:So we get the date. Yeah. And this is, I think, again, and this has changed quite a bit in my own life. And I didn't get into online dating. Thankfully, I met my partner before.

36:30Leslie John:How did you find your partner?

36:32Johnny:At a pool party in Las Vegas.

36:34Leslie John:Oh, amazing. Yep. Lovely. Labor Day. Lovely.

36:37Johnny:David Guetta, Encore Beach.

36:40Leslie John:Nice.

36:40Johnny:She was on a bachelorette party. I was with friends. We bumped into each other in the pool. Amazing. Now, obviously, not every love story is like that. And many of us are going online to do our dating, to find our partner. But what also happens with online is, well, we're going to look this person up. We're going to see what their Instagram is. We're going to see how vulnerable they were online. I know. Geez.

37:01Leslie John:Yeah.

37:01Johnny:And then I found, especially with a lot of our clients, we will do this where we will overfill ourselves on their online vulnerability and then come to the date and not know what to talk about. Know too much about the other person and not know what to share ourselves. And figuring out where the vulnerability on the first date that sparks enough attraction for the second date. Yeah. I think that is a struggle for a lot of us is now we've seen more and more information about us proliferate online.

37:28Leslie John:Right. Right. And so I think maybe one of the lessons there is try to resist the urge to do too much Googling. And also there's different facets of people. Right. Like, well, my husband later admitted to having Googled me a lot before the first date. Which I guess he stuck around, so I guess it's okay.

37:48Johnny:So he liked what he found in the results.

37:49Leslie John:Yeah, I mean, or overcame it. I don't know. But, you know, like when the way I, you know, when I'm teaching, when I'm teaching MBA students, it's a different side of me than when I'm playing with my kids. Your LinkedIn would be different than your Instagram. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's kind of hard to adjust for that. We know it cognitively, but it's hard to adjust, especially when it's a first impression because first impressions are super sticky. Yeah. So try not to – that's why I always say, like, you've got to just go meet the person. You really – you learn so much in, like, 45 minutes with the person.

38:20Leslie John:You can tell. You can really tell in the first five minutes, I think, if you've got – I've become more of a hopeless romantic after this. I used to be like – Forty-five is too much. There's no such thing as love at first sight. And I'm like, oh, maybe there is. What does the science say?

38:36Johnny:Yes. Someone who's crunched the numbers here. No, I know.

38:38Leslie John:So the science says that – so there's something called thin slicing. Have you heard of that? Yeah. It's super classic. Malcolm Gladwell is probably talking about it.

38:46Johnny:We've got the story, right? We fill in the blank. Right, right. Even with small information.

38:49Leslie John:And so our gut on someone is so powerful that here's an example of how powerful it is. They've done studies where they have videotaped an instructor first day of class. And they have found that the impression that that instructor makes in the first like five, 10 minutes of class is the strongest predictor of the teaching evaluation score at the end right like first impressions matter um so so do trust your gut and i do think that like as much as i like to science stuff out when it comes to love it's not there's so much we don't know about how it happens and you you just have to trust your instincts too right like it's kind of something we've evolved to like it's a balance because we just had a scientist on recently who

39:41Johnny:studies attraction in humans and said the third impression is actually the most impactful because by the third we're both a bit more relaxed and comfortable that our true self shines through that's interesting the first impression on a first date yeah we're we've done the research so we're in our head about what we research and then what we want to share vulnerability wise so we don't have the best representation of ourselves in that first date or even the second date. The third date is when attraction actually really develops and grows.

40:08Leslie John:That makes total sense. The way I would think about it is the first impression is very powerful. There is signal in it for sure. But you need to keep going. To me, it says it tells me whether I should keep going with the person or not. And usually my if I was in doubt, if I was like, maybe I would always go on another date. Right. Because of what you just mentioned. And then what happens as you date someone these rules of less is more they go away right the thing what you want to do which jives with what your other expert was saying is that you want to do the dance of disclosure together so you want to start the whole thing is built on sharing right so you say something maybe it's more superficial at the beginning and then then your partner shares something matches you or or raises you a little bit and then you keep going taking turns getting more and more vulnerable.

41:01Leslie John:And that by the third date, if you've gotten pretty vulnerable, like on the third date, I think it was on the second date, maybe even, I told my now husband that I was divorced. And that was like a really, really hard thing. And I didn't put it in my profile because I'm like, people will, they got it. There's a lot of damage. There's a lot of baggage around that word. Right. So they won't give you an opportunity. Right. They won't learn me. Learn me. You know. Study you. Spreadsheet you. Yeah. You're right, he did all the things. And so I deliberately omitted that. And then on the second date, I told him.

41:37Leslie John:And then it was so amazing because he, like, didn't flinch. Okay. And he then proceeded to tell me a really, really intimate story about his own life, about his brother, about how his brother passed. And so that like I just I'm like, oh, like not the sad story was horrible, but like the meta, what we were doing, the level of vulnerability that you both felt comfortable. And then I developed. Right. And then you develop feelings and trust and all the good stuff.

42:09Johnny:So walk us through that, because that's that I think a lot of our audience members can can feel themselves. They have that thing about their past. Yeah. And some of us might be divorced. Some of us might have kids. Some of us might be really struggling in our career. and we are sensing like I should share this about myself, but I also don't want to push the other person away. I like this person. What were you wrestling with and how did you know the second date was time?

42:32Leslie John:Yeah, that's a great point. So I felt the second date was time because I mean quite a bit of time had actually passed between the first and the second because we were traveling a bunch. So like that made it feel like it was more of an advanced date than it actually was. OK. But I I started to feel like increasingly like it was an omission. And so it started to feel increasingly like a secret I was keeping. And when you feel that, that's when you need to start thinking about how to reveal, because when you feel it's keeping distance, that's impeding you from developing, from deepening your relationship.

43:10Leslie John:It's also inauthentic. Yeah. It's also preoccupying. Right. Studies have also shown that when you have something, you're ruminating, you're trying to keep it. It takes actually a lot of mental work to keep a secret, right? You need to monitor and not hear that subject. And it's very depleting. But then I think it also helps for people to think about the way they will share it. And this makes me think of that amazing HBO show, The Rehearsal. Oh, my God. Greatest show ever, possibly. Like season two is just epically good. oh okay it's a lot to get through it is it's a lot it's intense it's intense it's absurd it's hilarious it's deep it's oh my gosh it's everything it's so good um but i think that people like um under prepare in some ways and they're like oh just go off the cuff but it's these things are so hard to do off the cuff so like for example when i when i mentioned to my ex that i thought we should get divorced i i said i remember sitting in my office i called him saying the words out loud trying it because that's so helpful it's also really empowering you get more confident because you practiced it the other so literally saying the words out loud is something that people often find helpful yeah but secondly I think you also want to think about to your earlier points the frame right what's the story um and the story is really important because you could tell a story of divorce in lots of different ways so the way you know you want it uh what I did what I there's lots of ways doing it but like I wanted to focus on the future right I didn't want to be dragged in the past nobody wants to talk about the baggage of what happened.

44:47Leslie John:Because then you're litigating it yeah who's right who's wrong. Yeah and that's another thing of like that is something we do overshare sometimes is gossip and talking negative things about other people it's not so nice I'm Canadian but it also looks bad on you too. Yeah. So I knew that I didn't want to do that but I needed to kind of give him enough of the why. And then think of the future focus of it and the growth, the upside of it too.

45:13Johnny:The opportunity for both of you. Totally. With this decision. Completely. Versus the past and fighting over how we got here.

45:20Leslie John:Right. But it's really hard. I mean, I'm sure you've had moments of like, what are some of your go-tos? Yeah.

45:25Johnny:So, you know, the most challenging decisions that I've had to make and then the conversation around that decision, I've put in my phone notes. I've then shared with a close confidant. This is what I'm planning on saying. This is how I'm feeling. And like, I also want to get a sense for what they're feeling and receiving it.

45:42Leslie John:Yeah.

45:43Johnny:Because to that frame, you know, that I know is just so important for you to be persuasive in any argument you're making.

45:50Leslie John:Yes, completely.

45:51Johnny:What is the frame that you're setting? And I need that feedback because often in my head, I will assume things. I'm pretty empathetic. I'm introverted. that'll come across differently for me than they would for someone receiving it. So my two best friends, they tend to be a bit more extroverted and they're open with me sharing these. So I had a really difficult conversation with an ex-business partner, had to go through the divorce of the business and it was weighing on me and I knew it had to happen, but having that conversation, how to have it, what to say, yeah, I had to note it. I had to practice it first myself out loud and then say, okay, listen, buddy, can you just walk me through you hearing this?

46:30Johnny:Is there anything I'm missing from this? And then I finally shared that.

46:33Leslie John:And how did it go over?

46:35Johnny:You know, it's a very tough conversation. As much as I like practiced it and felt good about it, it didn't land the way that, you know, I would hope it would. But at the same time, I felt much better prepared in doing it. And I was able to step into that discomfort.

46:51Leslie John:Completely.

46:51Johnny:Because for me, much like you were sharing, you know, my emotions growing up were pretty disregarded. It was less important. Yes. The emotions of the adults in my life, they were the most important. Mine were dismissed. So very often I will dismiss and bottle up my emotions to protect someone else's.

47:08Leslie John:Same thing. Same thing.

47:09Johnny:So because of that discomfort around my own negative emotions with this business partnership, I had to step into that negative emotion, own and say, this is how I'm feeling. This is why I'm feeling it. This is what I think the solution should be. And it didn't go as I'd hoped, but I still felt a lot better and I was willing to do it because I took those steps, the prep and the sharing with someone else.

47:28Leslie John:Right. Right. Totally. It is another area where this comes out is giving hard feedback to students. So one of the things I'm also the official bad guy at HBS because I am in charge of the academic performance committee. So people are struggling. and it really is at first I was like this is I'm dizzy from all this spin when I first started and it really is developmental I'm like how is this developmental it really is because we we spend a lot of time the committee trying to understand what went wrong because there's all kinds of different things that can go wrong and then how because we have agency we can do lots of things to support people and there's also

48:11Johnny:a lot of pressure to maintain standards for the graduates and to have opportunities for them after and if you withhold that feedback they're stunted in their development. Totally. They don't get work. They don't get what they wanted on the education. So it is a tough conversation that has to be had.

48:27Leslie John:And I've actually shifted my focus in how I've done these conversations because when I started in the role, I would start by, like they always want to know, like what did I do wrong? And so then I would answer them. But no, and then I realized no answer is ever going to be satisfying to them because they're hurt. They feel like failures. They're full of emotions. This is not a logical conversation.

48:49Johnny:It flips immediately to defensive.

48:51Leslie John:Right. Exactly. Like defend your decision. Right.

48:54Johnny:Like, OK, you you are now telling me exactly what I did wrong. I can think a thousand different ways where you have the wrong perception. That's not what happened. Completely. Now I want to fight it.

49:02Leslie John:Completely. I don't want to hear what you're going to say. Completely. Completely. So now what I do is I ask them questions and I listen. And I realize that like a lot of it is they need someone to listen. They're they're going through something hard. They need to process it. But I happen to be the person. They already know in their heart of hearts.

49:20Johnny:These are top performers. They know when they're not performing. If you got into HBS, you know.

49:25Leslie John:Yeah. And so, but I also, when I do speak, because they'll, sometimes they actually, they sincerely ask me for once. I always, the first 20 minutes, I'm like, they're talking. And even if they try to get me to talk, I ask them questions back.

49:42Johnny:Redirect it.

49:42Leslie John:Yeah. And then in the end, sometimes they want my advice or my take. And the way I always lead that is with something that is true and warm. I genuinely want you to succeed and I know you can. Right? So showing before you deliver difficult feedback, I've done studies on this. It matters so much to convey your intent. because even though, and it seems so silly in the abstract because you're like, of course, like I'm like a professional here. Of course I want them to succeed. But again, what feels like community. From your perspective, yes.

50:17Johnny:From their perspective in hearing that doesn't often feel that way.

50:20Leslie John:It's like some scary person. So it'll feel like over-communicating. And once I do that, it's so disarming. And then we can like really get into like, oh, how can we get creative with your course of lecture or whatever. Then it's actually constructive.

50:36Johnny:Well, I think this is a challenge professionally, whether it's in your professional education and pursuit of an MBA or once you actually get into work. Vulnerability for a lot of people is often misconstrued as transparency. Yes. And how do we tell the difference between the two and what is more impactful in our career to succeed?

50:55Leslie John:Right. That's a great question. I think they're both important in their own ways. So I think of transparency as cognitive openness, as sharing your thoughts. it's like kind of level one disclosure. Level two, deeper is vulnerability, sharing your feelings. And both are important. Both get us stuff. Vulnerability is, of course, riskier, especially in the workplace. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. The rewards are much greater, even though the risk is greater. And so trying these different techniques of when am I just going to... Transparency would be like telling someone your thought process behind something so it's a generally a pretty safe way to go because it is being open and you get the benefits of being open without the risks of vulnerability so like if you're in a job interview and someone asks you what's your greatest weakness right dreaded question and suppose suppose you're gonna give like a quasi real weakness that you know you're not so great at speaking off the cuff in meetings.

51:58Leslie John:Okay, so you could say it like that, which I wouldn't recommend. Or you could say it with transparency, which would be like, you know, I find that I like to have some notice for meetings because the way my mind works is that when I have more notice, I can jot down a few notes and I've got kind of the basic structure of logic. Now, you can always ask me in the moment and I'll give you my view, but that's just the way my mind works, right? That's like so reasonable, so relatable, so like this is a human who –

52:31Johnny:You gave a weakness, but there's a much better way to present it.

52:34Leslie John:And it's better also than a humble brag of like I work too hard. I wish – because then it's just like that. I don't know how to turn it off. Eye roll. You're just not real. And this way you're showing emotional intelligence because you understand yourself, which is super baller, and you're framing it in a way that's really like you're on top of it and it's also showcasing a strength, right? Yeah. That you prepare.

52:54Johnny:The hidden strength is that in another context, I'm even better.

52:57Leslie John:Exactly. Exactly.

52:59Johnny:Versus, hey, this is my weakness.

53:00Leslie John:Completely. When you want your spring break to feel like.

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53:59Leslie John:And now, so vulnerability in a job interview, that would be a riskier thing, sharing like, I get really anxious when public speaking. I would not recommend that in a job interview.

54:08Johnny:Yeah, I've once cried on stage. Peed my pants on stage. Now we're getting to vulnerability that's too much.

54:15Leslie John:Right, right. But even then, there's still some times where you would be surprised at how vulnerability, like you wake up with a disclosure hangover the next morning and then you realize that there's actually a lot of redemption. I think some of the problem in how we think about disclosure, opening up, keeping mum is kind of like a one shot thing that like it's a binary that is either good or bad. But the the effects are multiplicitous. Is that a word? So like, yeah, sharing an embarrassing story may make you feel regret in the moment and feel embarrassed. But this is what happened to me when I we were going around a circle late at night in a conference and people had the great idea of like, let's share the most embarrassing story ever.

55:02Leslie John:And I was a baby academic and there were some super senior people in the field there. And everyone was like humble braggy. Like, yeah. And then I decided because I maybe I had a little too much to drink to just go for it and share my actually most embarrassing story. And so the next morning I just, oh, my gosh, what did I do? Career suicide. Oh, my gosh, can't show my face ever. But then it turned out that the two super senior scholars there became two of my closest mentors. Like one of them is a super close friend of mine. And I think it might have been partly because of that, you know. So, yes, there are downsides, but it's not all or nothing, right?

55:43Leslie John:There's often surprising upsides.

55:45Johnny:I think the problem in a lot of these situations is the redemption is is further in the future completely than that emotional state that you feel immediately after the morning after. So that redemption will come a year later where they're like, yeah, I'll publish that paper with you. Oh, yeah, I'd love to tell you about this new job opportunity that just opened up at the university. But oftentimes in the moment after you've had a couple too many glasses of wine and you shared that thing and everyone was aghast and no one else shared anything like that.

56:11Leslie John:Right.

56:12Johnny:You can feel that weight for months.

56:13Leslie John:Right. And that and moreover, when when, you know, it's not like my bestie said to me, you know, when you told me that embarrassing story, let's let's do a collaboration now. Let's do a research. It's not linked to that. Right. Because it's just a je ne sais quoi vibe that they get and that grows and blossoms. And so I think that that's where the work on emotional processing, putting thoughts and feelings into words can really help you in those really tough moments. Also, just general things like working out. I find working out is like probably one of the best forms of therapy ever. Yeah. There's nothing like a HIIT workout to just like.

56:49Leslie John:Clear all of that. Yeah.

56:50Johnny:Let's talk about this vulnerability. Because for our audience who's very analytical.

56:54Leslie John:Yeah.

56:54Johnny:They love frameworks. Yes. And you have a great two by two matrix that I think will help us as we start to think about the different contexts where vulnerability is so important.

57:03Leslie John:Right, right. So what we want to think that when we think about whether to share or not to share, as I said, the number one thing we worry about is the risk of revealing. And we are great at telling stories and catastrophizing that. What we need to force ourselves to do is to consider three other considerations. There's actually four considerations. This is where the two by two is, oh, angel singing. So one of the axes is reveal or conceal. The other one is pros and cons. So you get all four combos. There's pros of revealing, pros of concealing, cons of revealing, cons of concealing. And the reason why I like to actually draw the diagram is because when you think about it, you will see that you're filling up the one quadrant.

57:54Johnny:Always.

57:54Leslie John:Always. And you have to when you seeing is believing, seeing those empty quadrants stretches you.

58:00Johnny:Right. Exactly.

58:02Leslie John:Exactly. And so that's I've found it in my own life to be a very helpful framework. I'm not suggesting we do a full four quadrant reckoning for everything, but I would suggest trying it for a few. And then then you start to do it more naturally.

58:16Johnny:Yeah, I think oftentimes in these situations, we know that there's risk with the vulnerability. We're already thinking about it. So why not draw the matrix, right? It's not every vulnerable situation where I got to think, OK, I need a matrix. But we know when those moments are arising that, OK, I should think through how I disclose this and why it's important.

58:35Leslie John:Yes. And the how is important, too. Right. And the how can shape, you know, if you just if you do it in a certain way, you can mitigate the risks.

58:43Johnny:Right. So let's unpack that. How.

58:45Leslie John:Right. Right.

58:47Johnny:You had a great example from the job interview, but there are these other situations where we've been in where we screwed up. We hurt our partner. We frustrated a friend. We disappointed our boss. And how we frame it and how we share that has a big impact on whether or not we heal, whether or not we can move forward from it.

59:05Leslie John:Yeah. So one thing that I think is really important that we sometimes overlook is timing. I found that in my own marriage to be really helpful, where if you try, if you're having a tiff, a little argument or misunderstanding and you try, I'm not capable of this. Maybe some amazingly self-actualized person can do this, but I'm not capable of having a conversation about it when our lizard brains are active. So what I do now is I keep notes. Everything is on my phone. I write a note. And then when we're calm, when we're maybe having a drink, every Friday night is date night. We have a nanny hired by default.

59:47Leslie John:So if we don't go, we still pay for it. So it's like forcing mechanism. Forcing, yeah. Yeah. Like when you're calm and relaxed and you can talk about it even with humor. Right. And learn more. So timing is important. So don't it's off. And sometimes we feel like we're trapped, like we have to do it now. It's now or never. It's usually not. Take a breath. Think about the next conversation. Pause.

1:00:11Johnny:Well, let's talk the flip side, though, because timing does work both ways. Yes. So in the moment, we might not be able to solve it, but you wait a year.

1:00:19Leslie John:Oh, you can't.

1:00:19Johnny:And then you're like, hey, I got to talk to you about the toilet paper.

1:00:22Leslie John:Yeah, right. The moment's gone.

1:00:24Johnny:That date night is not going to be a fun one.

1:00:25Leslie John:Right, right. Although I dare say we can probably make any topic fun. Like toilet paper, that's an easy one. Did you know, here's a fun toilet paper. Did you know that there are two types of people, and it's a very stable individual difference. It's half of, I don't know if it's 50-50, but some people are folders of toilet paper when they use it. Okay. Do you go number two? And others are scrunchers, right? So Paul Rosen, he's a psychologist at Penn. He's one of my favorite. He's in his 80s. He is amazing. He's so good at like that je ne sais quoi capturing human behavior, right? Yeah. And then when he does this talk, when he does this talk, when he tells you, you can see everyone in the crowd is like, yeah.

1:01:01Leslie John:Like everybody knows what they are, right? So anyways, even toilet paper can be interesting. But I digress. What are we talking about?

1:01:08Johnny:So the timing of the vulnerable. So in the moment, yes, it's heated. There's emotions. But then there's also probably a hangover if we go too long and not sharing that. Because now we're withholding something that's bothered us, that's frustrated us, that we've done to wrong the other person, hurt them. And that makes us look bad and withholding.

1:01:26Leslie John:Yeah, completely. So there is a sweet spot for sure. You want to do it. Maybe one way to think about it is like as soon as you can after lizard brain is deactivated. deactivate it after you've cooled off. Process the emotions. And you have time and there's no like children running around. Yeah, that's that's another tricky thing is.

1:01:46Johnny:So there's another context for our audience who are now accelerating in their career. And we often find a lot of our clients have moved from individual contributor to now a leadership role. And we've heard the adage share your flaws as a leader. It makes you more endearing. It gets the troops on your side. But it's hard. For sure.

1:02:08Leslie John:And risky.

1:02:09Johnny:Very risky. And often much of what got us to that leadership role was not sharing the flaws as an individual contributor, was selling ourselves and being visible and taking the lion's share of credit to get that spot. And now we're in a leadership role and the advice is share your flaws.

1:02:25Leslie John:Yeah. Yeah. Well, the first thing I say to when I teach executives is less pitching, more listening. So leaders should spend far more time listening than they should pitching. So in fact, pitching, studies have also shown on persuasion, if you want to persuade someone of your idea, it's generally more effective to do it by asking them questions, right? To lead them to that conclusion. So studies on sales calls where they've analyzed the number of questions the salesperson asks is strongly positively related to closing the deal, right? Yep. Less pitching, more asking. So that's like the general mindset.

1:03:04Leslie John:And also that in and of itself increases trust and employee rapport because when you ask someone, like to be a good listener, you have to also elicit information by asking them. And when you ask someone questions, you learn objective things about the true state of the business. But they also feel like you like them and trust them because you're asking them, right? Totally. So that's a huge thing. But then when it comes to this, like, share more, tell your vulnerabilities. Yes, it can be incredibly powerful. We've done lots of studies with executives where they have shared just a little bit more than what they think they should.

1:03:41Leslie John:Um, so for example, if you are one study, we asked executives to, um, write a list of their, of their, their, um, positive traits and then their, their negative qualities. And then we said, which of these would you say in a self-introduction to a new team? And of course, like everyone says that we'd share the positives and no one says they'd share the weaknesses. That makes sense intuitively, I guess. But then in another study, we actually forced them to. We said, okay, now you're going to put a weakness in there. You're going to do it and you're going to like it. No. And what we found was when they did that, the employees trusted them more.

1:04:21Leslie John:They were more motivated to work for them. They were better employees. Now, I'm not saying share anything. So we also, I love my job, did a study where we like, what's the tipping point, right? At what point is it TMI? And conceptually, one way I think about this is leaders have kind of a longer leash on vulnerability than when you're still climbing up the ranks in the following sense. When you are vulnerable at work, a main concern is that people are going to think you're not competent, right? And competence is king. I mean, warmth is important too, but competence in a leader is obviously essential, as is warmth in my opinion.

1:05:00But at any rate, so that's why we're

1:05:02Leslie John:kind of reticent to do it. But once you are already a leader, you are already a high status person, you already have like a wealth of competence. You've got this competence capital. And so the idea is that when you take one little bit of vulnerability, like a grain of salt, like it does nothing to your competence. It does not. And so that's the kind of logic. But if you take a giant boulder of vulnerability, then you may start putting a dent in it.

1:05:25Johnny:Right. So saying I lied on my resume to get all of this confidence.

1:05:30Leslie John:Right. Well, that's an interesting case, too, because the immoral things, those almost never get you revealing those. I mean, it's best to just not do them. Right. So but suppose, OK, if we say like a work related weakness, like sometimes I get nervous public speaking. What we did in this study was we actually had different scripts. We started with like the most tame, which is still vulnerable. I sometimes get nervous public speaking, a leader saying that. And then the next version was like, I sometimes get nervous public speaking and sometimes my mouth gets dry. I sometimes get nervous public speaking, my mouth gets dry, and sometimes I get full on panic attacks.

1:06:05Leslie John:So we're like, what's the tipping point? In those three examples I just gave, the first one, people still trusted the leader, didn't think competence took no hit. Even the second one saying, I sometimes I get nervous public speaking and my mouth sometimes gets dry. Like that second level also didn't decrease. It was the third. So the point here is that it's not the line isn't going to be the same everywhere, but the line I've always found almost always is further than you think it is, especially in leadership. And so the reason that opening up in this way helps is like it makes you relatable. It makes you human.

1:06:41Leslie John:And it also there's another amazing study that has shown that when you another tricky thing with leaders, in addition to being kind of pursued, perceived as aloof and out of touch is which revealing helps with is getting feedback. Right. Getting real honest feedback. Right. Once you it's hard to get to get to get honest feedback as you become higher status. And so what these researchers did in a study is they got half of managers to do the usual way to their employees. These were 360 feedbacks and say, I can take it.

1:07:16Johnny:Just tell me. Please just tell me. Well, yeah, right.

1:07:19Leslie John:Would be like as an employee, I'd be like, dude, no. Or do that. But the other half of people, they said, the other half of managers, they said, just share something you're working on and then elicit feedback. Right. Right.

1:07:33Johnny:So identify something that you've already found and say, I'm looking to improve here. So it frames it and it creates the psychological safety for the person who's lower status to share.

1:07:46Leslie John:It shows you can take it, right? Yeah, because you're aware of it. It's not just lip service. Yeah, completely. And so that was a real wow for me when I learned that result.

1:07:54Johnny:Yeah, I think oftentimes we don't realize the weight of our status as we are minted a leader. We're certified a leader. We're given this role and now given team members.

1:08:05Leslie John:How do you get feedback if you wanted feedback?

1:08:08Johnny:That exact thing. I didn't do the research. I didn't do the study. Well, you have a really good read. I recognized very early on. So when I left graduate school to start the company and got thrust into a leadership role, I didn't study. And you need feedback. Yeah. I knew that I was screwing up. I knew that I was screwing up as a leader because I had no experience. It was all new. I'm just trying to get the company rolling. And I recognized that in those moments where I was like, all right, we're going to do 360 feedback. And I felt really good giving everyone their feedback. And I'm like, all right, come on.

1:08:38Johnny:I can take it. I'm ready for it. I crave it. I care about it. I want to be a better leader. And crickets. And I was like, this is not what I'm looking for. And then I recognized, OK, well, what if I just share outside of the 360 meeting what I'm working on? Areas of growth for me.

1:08:55Leslie John:Great.

1:08:55Johnny:I'm working on being a better listener. I'm working on my public speaking. I'm working on my radio voice. So I got a coach for this. And then they're like, oh, hey, check this out. Or, oh, here's a little bit of feedback. And I'm like, wow, OK. So as a leader framing what I'm working on, what I'm open to feedback on actually gets that honest feedback.

1:09:14Leslie John:Did you find that it changed their receptiveness to you giving them feedback?

1:09:19Johnny:Yeah. Yeah. But not so much in the 360 like structure. Yeah. But in the off the cuff moments.

1:09:27Leslie John:Those are the best moments, I think. Right. Yeah.

1:09:29Johnny:And there's a recency thing. Right. That's what I was getting at. Right. And this is a framework that I'd love your thoughts on. So, you know, our clients love frameworks to operate, especially analytical introverts. Yeah. And we work mostly with men. So this vulnerability piece, you know, stiff up your lip stoic.

1:09:47Leslie John:Right.

1:09:48Johnny:You know, don't want to share what not to share. And I think for our clients, what has worked really well, I like to think of vulnerability is like an onion.

1:09:55Leslie John:Yes. And the outermost layer of the onion is your past.

1:09:59Johnny:So like what happened in your childhood, maybe in school, your past experiences in your career, starting there often, many of us have those same experiences in our past. And yes, it feels vulnerable to share, but it's still a lot easier than saying, here's what's happening in my present. Yeah. I'm really struggling as a dad or I'm really struggling with work. You're so right. To say that on a first date, to say that with someone you're trying to become friends with, something that you're currently struggling with, there's a lot more vulnerability and weight. And it has an opportunity to be too much.

1:10:35Leslie John:For sure. Completely.

1:10:36Johnny:And then the third innermost layer of that onion is your future, your hopes and dreams. It's like, I want to, you know, I want to turn this company into a publicly traded company. If I said that on a first date, that's way too much vulnerability.

1:10:47Leslie John:They're going to be like, yeah, what are you saying?

1:10:49Johnny:Yeah.

1:10:49Leslie John:Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:50Johnny:So I like to think of my vulnerability of like, all right, start with my past, how I got here. What are those experiences? Then what are my thoughts, values, beliefs? And then the innermost, like what are my hopes and dreams and fears? Yeah. Those carry the most weight. So I protect them the most. I don't share those vulnerabilities with everyone. And I think that's part of being like a high functioning human in society is like knowing, you know, not someone when you get to the real core, you have to have established a relationship with someone usually.

1:11:20Leslie John:Right. Yeah.

1:11:20Johnny:And I think that creates the deepening of that relationship.

1:11:23Leslie John:Completely.

1:11:24Johnny:So if you're on the second, third date, start looking at those inner layers of the onion to peel back. Like, what do you want that future to be? Do you want a family? How many kids? What do you really want out of life? Right. You know, not on the first date. Yeah. Not on the profile. Right.

1:11:38Leslie John:Right. Yes. Yes, totally. And coming back to dates for a sec, but this is like in general. People just don't ask enough questions on dates or in general, in my view. And so it was always really surprising to me how people like that. Asking questions is an integral way to get reciprocity going. And so there's an instinct that people have. It's kind of ironic where the more again, this is also related to less pitching, more asking. The more you are like attracted to someone on a date. I experienced this myself. The more I was like.

1:12:17Johnny:Tell me more.

1:12:18Leslie John:No, me telling them. Right. Me sharing that because I was selling. I'm like, oh my God. And then the guys I wasn't so into, I would just ask them questions. And then the exact opposite happened. I was getting the text from the guys I didn't want. And then I realized, oh, wow. Yeah. Sometimes it doesn't come naturally to really ask those questions and elicit disclosure in someone else. Yeah.

1:12:42Johnny:We talk about that in our courses, the buyer-seller dynamic.

1:12:46Leslie John:Yeah. Interesting.

1:12:46Johnny:And I think oftentimes when we are trying to wow someone, impress them, influence them, we switch into seller. Yes. Talking about our accomplishments, our experiences, why we're so great.

1:12:57Leslie John:Right.

1:12:57Johnny:And we don't think about being the buyer. But it's actually higher status to be the buyer, soliciting the information to make the judgment on versus saying, hey, here's how awesome I am.

1:13:07Leslie John:It's also another thing that comes to mind. So this question asking work is my amazing colleague and bestie, Allison Brooks. She's done a ton of work on question asking. And one of my experiences with it was I am introverted and so somewhat socially anxious, too. I bet those often co-occur. And so going to dinners with, you know, visiting professors, people I didn't know, and it's like hoity-toity, and I would feel anxious about them. And then I realized, oh, I can ask questions. I don't need to make conversation. Just be curious and ask questions. And then it made my anxiety, my social anxiety just completely went away because I realized all I have to do is ask questions.

1:13:49Leslie John:So that was kind of a cool life hack that I stumbled upon.

1:13:52Johnny:I think the stumbling block there for a lot of our clients and audience members who we've shared this with is the false narrative then that it becomes an interview. Oh, yeah. You got to be careful about that. What are you doing with the information you're soliciting? For sure. Do you value it? Do you validate it? Does it mean something to you? So I think we have to, it's great to prepare questions. It's great to, in conversation, use questions. But we always share the real relationship happens when you ask the question, you listen to their answer and value it, and then have a statement after about what that answer means to you.

1:14:28Johnny:Can you relate to it? Is it interesting to you? Do you care more? Instead of falling into the question, question, question.

1:14:34Leslie John:For sure. For sure.

1:14:35Johnny:Because we've all been on that first date where we get asked a ton of questions. We don't hear anything about the other person. And we now can't even decide, is there anything here? Am I interested in them?

1:14:45Leslie John:What I would also say, though, is I would empower your listeners. If you feel like it's an interrogation, grab the reins. Ask a question back. How does this strike you? Does this jibe with you? Do you have a different experience, right?

1:14:58Johnny:Yeah, I realize I've been answering so many questions. What about you? What are your thoughts?

1:15:01Leslie John:Yeah, you can even make a comment like that. Totally, totally. And then they'll be flattered and happy. But what were we just talking about before this?

1:15:08Johnny:So that reciprocity, that balance is key here.

1:15:11Leslie John:Yeah, it really is key. Oh, another thing that I was thinking is thinking of like more business contexts. And one core application of this is negotiation. And I teach negotiation all the time. And again, I'm always saying to my executives there, more asking, less pitching, more same thing applies there. But I think that people often ask me in a negotiation. Like think of these like really fraught business negotiation. Although, frankly, I think the negotiations with children at home are in like in-laws and like siblings. Those are much harder. But anyways, I digress. So like there's a lot of money on the line.

1:15:50Leslie John:It's really fraught. It feels zero sum. So in order to get good deals, you do have to share information. But you have to be careful. And so then people are like, well, what do I share? I can't share. It'll weaken myself. But not everything will weaken yourself. The single thing that you want to make sure to share and elicit in them is what they value, what they care about. And we often forget about that. We get too much into the numbers. Like, what do you value? What do you care about? And people will often say, like, I want a higher salary or whatever. Well, you have to get under that. That's a position like, okay, why do you want the higher salary?

1:16:29Leslie John:What will you spend the money on? Because when you're able to tell people that, when they understand you like that and when you understand them, that's when you can make win-win deals, right?

1:16:38Johnny:Yeah, it opens up the playing field to so many other opportunities.

1:16:41Leslie John:Completely. And then it's also more fun, too, than this awkward, contentious, zero-sum negotiation.

1:16:47Johnny:And for some times, that salary is tied to a title that they actually care more about. Right, it's status. Time off and time with their kids that they care more about. Yes, yes. But if we just say, okay it's salary and we don't ask any other questions then we only have one thing to actually negotiate on right it's so tight and that's like almost

1:17:03Leslie John:the often the hardest thing right salary and so it's interesting when I ask more my MBA students when they come in with their job offers like who is amazing and then they're like I want to get like another$20 ,000 on like a 400k salary and I'm like do you money's great but why and they get flustered sometimes so like like that and i'm like why and consider like how you ask and how you're going to come across this is a new employer like i'm not saying don't negotiate i'm just saying like what do you really want right it's a little crass to just be like and sometimes it's just because well my classmate got

1:17:39Johnny:it right or i heard of this other offer from stanford and it like told then i feel like i'm

1:17:44Leslie John:like a psychologist bad one but like because then they start saying these things and like my friend

1:17:48Johnny:i'm like yeah but it's just one of those things that we can you know force rank ourselves on compete on. So it feels like, well, then I just got to ask for it. Someone else got it. Right. Oh, another thing I was thinking when you were talking about like, how do you know, like how to

1:18:02Leslie John:do it? Like when did we talk about timing and we talked about the story and we talked about practice and we talked about framing, all of which are amazing. Another thing, it's a bit quirky, which is the physical environment we're in. So that can have an enormous effect on people's comfort opening up. Studies have looked at, they put people in, they call it a hard room, which is, as you imagine, like cinder blocks and fluorescent lighting versus a soft room. Like this is, oh my gosh, I love this room. It's such a soft room because it's a cozy, there's carpet, the lighting, if there's kind of warm lighting, these features of the environment that you'd be like, what?

1:18:41Leslie John:That's crazy. They actually, studies have shown like randomizing people to cold room, warm room, People are more comfortable opening up and they kind of take difficult things more in stride. So even that, like, is there a pillow there?

1:18:55Johnny:What about body language? Because this is another thing that we talk about with our clients is oftentimes we will put ourselves in what we call positive body language, fully facing the other person.

1:19:07Leslie John:We're kind of closed right now, but yeah.

1:19:08Johnny:And in that positive where I'm giving you my full attention and I'm right on you, it creates more of an impediment to being vulnerable. We feel fully judged when we're being fully perceived by the other person versus side to side. We're angled a little bit out. We call this more open body language. And, you know, if I'm a doctor giving a patient bad news, something really vulnerable, if I'm next to them, it's a much different impact than if I'm directly facing them.

1:19:34Leslie John:Yeah, definitely. Seeding body language. And this is the cool thing that you're saying is you can orchestrate this by how you choose where to set the furniture. I love doctors who sit down when they talk to you. Right. It's come around and show you the results here.

1:19:48Johnny:Let's walk through this together.

1:19:49Leslie John:Exactly.

1:19:50Johnny:And now whatever you're facing, whatever the diagnosis is, you have a team member who's attacking you together.

1:19:56Leslie John:Collaborating. Yeah.

1:19:57Johnny:And same thing with first dates. We find often clients will feel like, well, I have to sit across from the person, but actually just moving next to them.

1:20:03Leslie John:Yeah. Interesting.

1:20:04Johnny:And being side by side creates more of that opportunity to get comfortable being vulnerable.

1:20:09Leslie John:Yeah. What do you think about, what would you, like, what do you advise your clients on? Is there like a first, the best date? Like, what should you do on your first date?

1:20:18Johnny:So to get to your point around the vulnerability and environments, the best first dates actually have a couple different environments tied together. Okay. So can you do a coffee and then a walk? And can you go get your favorite milkshake or groceries? Or can you go to your favorite wine shop and then go have a bite? So can you create different environments that will accelerate the environments you've been in together that create the closeness that allow the vulnerability and allow you to open up?

1:20:46Leslie John:And why does the multiple environments, why is that so powerful? I believe it. I'm just curious.

1:20:51Johnny:It's again, we are wired to feel more connected to people that we've shared more time and experiences with. And if you can stack the experiences in the first date, you then create a closeness that other first dates don't have.

1:21:04Leslie John:Yeah. I also love the idea of like doing something together experiential because it's it feels so much more natural than to to converse that way. Then if you're like sitting, it takes the pressure off you.

1:21:17Johnny:You're an introvert. Maybe you're a little socially anxious. If you know you're doing an activity together, then the focal point is not the conversation. It's going to happen, but it's not the focal point.

1:21:26Leslie John:Completely.

1:21:27Johnny:And we we feel the dinner is a level of intimacy. Watching someone else eat and eating with them creates too much on that first date.

1:21:37Leslie John:Yes. Yes. I feel I was always anti dinner. I would never suggest dinner for the exact reasons you use. It's too much, too much, too soon. Yeah.

1:21:47Johnny:There's just a lot going on with what and especially for a lot of our clients who then are worried about their own physique. They're following diets. They're working. I know there's all that. all this going on it's like well where can i take her where she's gonna find i'm gonna find

1:21:59Leslie John:they're gonna find something that they like maybe judged for the choices even if they're not judging you it just it feels more nerve-wracking yeah yeah yeah so that's that's the the first date

1:22:08Johnny:hack that we so even even my own meeting my wife we ended up doing multiple things together so we went to the pool party then we had a bite teeth then we walked around the strip and just going through those experiences together it created much more closeness than if i just had a one spot date.

1:22:25Leslie John:Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.

1:22:27Johnny:So as we wrap here, what did you take out of all this research as the most impactful for you, recognizing your own revealing and not revealing in these moments?

1:22:39Leslie John:So I learned and literally as I wrote the book, I learned I mean, I learned so much about I had been doing research on this for a long time, but there's so much more to be learned. I went down, like, is ecstasy therapeutic? Like, there's so many interesting angles that I went down. So I learned a lot. But what I learned most was about myself. And I learned that I even maybe fancy myself an oversharer. But as I wrote the book, I realized that even I, self-professed oversharer, was really holding back on the important stuff, the feelings, the deep stuff. And so it was kind of like a performative oversharing, which wasn't the kind of sharing that I wanted to get better at.

1:23:29Leslie John:Right. It was kind of a facade. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like fun. And I love it's a fun thing. Sharing is fun. But and so the thing that struck me the most was what I learned about romantic relationships and marriages and sharing and how the dating stuff I find fascinating because there's so many angles and so many micro decisions about what to make. But the thing that really struck me was what I learned about long term relationships and how they don't they don't when they fail, it's often not because of some horrible, dramatic hurt or affair or something like this. It's more common that people just grow apart.

1:24:13Leslie John:and you hear these statistics on people feeling lonely in their own marriages and I started thinking why like what's the role of disclosure in that and what I learned is that over time it's very common in marriages for people to stop sharing and the reason is because over time we do know our partners better but our confidence that we know them our confidence that we can always intuit their thoughts and feelings our confidence massively out sizes outpaces is our actual knowledge. And that's where the problem begins, right? Because then we assume and we don't ask and we don't tell. And that, you know, there have been studies that have looked at even, they put people who have loved each other for years, like they've been in marriages for 12 years, which is longer than either of my marriages.

1:24:56Leslie John:And they only were, like 80 % of the time they were wrong in intuiting what their partners were thinking and feeling. And so that to me, it's like this secret sad part of, that we can do is very addressable, right? The answer is share your feelings. It's going to feel like over communicating. And so that really, really has changed my own marriage.

1:25:17Johnny:And with that knowledge, because that also came through in the book to me, is recognizing that maybe our assumptions about the people we're closest to in our life, we aren't right on. So don't make that assumption. Like listen more, ask the follow-up question. Don't assume you recognize the emotion, your best friend, your partner.

1:25:36Leslie John:I think it also makes you more empathic too because when you don't ask, like maybe I'm just a negative Nelly, but I come up with like, oh, he's trying to hurt me or whatever.

1:25:44Johnny:We personalize things in negative ways. Yeah. Well put.

1:25:48Leslie John:And then when I ask him, it's like, no, no, no, he's, we're just in different universe. He's got a completely reasonable, nice, logical thing. And so it's made me more empathic, I think, or it makes people more empathic, I should say. I don't want to brag about myself.

1:26:02Johnny:Well, thank you for stopping by. Where can I just find out about the book?

1:26:05Leslie John:You can take, so there's some quizzes that might be fun on my website, proflesleyjohn.com. And then you can buy the book anywhere books are sold.

1:26:13Johnny:Thank you.

1:26:13Leslie John:Thank you so much.

1:26:25AJ:And now comes the part of the show where we showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Tammy. me.

1:26:33Leslie John:Hey, everybody. This is Tammy. And as a retail business owner, the old saying, you know, it's lonely at the top. It's true. I joined X Factor because I wanted to be in a group of people who were kind of on the same level that I was, who were trying to live their best lives. And it has been an amazing community to be a part of. I am in X Factor with people who are really trying to create their best future and their best lives. And I highly recommend the program to anybody

1:27:03AJ:who's thinking about it. I don't think that you'll ever regret it. To invest in yourself is the best investment you can make. Thank you, Tammy. It was a pleasure working with you too, and good luck to you and your future endeavors. If you've gotten value out of this or any of our podcasts, head on over to your favorite podcast player and rate and review the show. It means the world to us and it helps others find the show until next week go out there and make it

1:27:34Leslie John:and you saw the world You're a song of a tragedy Cause you had your taste Of black all weeks today Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you

1:28:14AJ:Rinse knows that greatness takes time But so does laundry So Rinse will take your laundry and hand-deliver it to your door, expertly cleaned. And you can take the time pursuing your passions. Time once spent sorting and waiting, folding and queuing, now spent challenging and innovating and pushing your way to greatness. So pick up the Irish flute or those calligraphy pens or that daunting Beef Wellington recipe card and leave the laundry to us. Rinse. It's time to be great.