Your Brain Needs More Space, Not More Hacks | Dr. Anne-Laure Le Cunff

26:22We commit for a new habit for the rest of our lives. We commit to a new habit for the rest of our lives without having ever tried it before. And then we wonder why it's not working. So tiny experiments can also be a gateway to discover habits that you might want to implement then later on in life. Going along with that, so many of us will view procrastination as failure and because of it, then beat ourselves up and not want to design any of these experiments. And actually you say we should treat that like a signal and we should actually think about procrastination as something that we can use in the design of these experiments.

27:02Can you elaborate? I talk a lot about in my work about systematic curiosity, which means being curious about absolutely everything, even the stuff that's uncomfortable and that we'd rather not look at too closely. And I use procrastination as an example because I find procrastination fascinating. It's something we all do. We all do it. And we're all very happy to talk about it at a conceptual level. So we say, oh yeah, procrastination. Yeah, I know, I know. But still, there's still so much shame and taboo around it in the sense that nobody ever walks to their boss at work and says, I'm sorry, I haven't finished this presentation because I was procrastinating.

27:47Nobody does that. We never admit to procrastinating. And so what would it look like to be curious about this psychological phenomenon that apparently we're all trying to ignore is happening? It's happening in general, but it's not happening to us. And so I created this little tool that's very simple and that allows you to have almost like a conversation with your procrastination because that's what your procrastination is. Your procrastination is just a signal from your brain trying to tell you that something is not quite working right now. So instead of trying to push through using your willpower and discipline and blaming yourself for procrastinating, what would it look like to just have this conversation and say, hi, procrastination, you're back.

28:33Hello. What are you trying to tell me? So the little tool I created is called the triple check. And the idea is to ask, where are you coming from? Where is this procrastination coming from? Is it coming from the head, from the heart, or from the hand? If the procrastination is coming from the head, it means that at a rational level, you're not fully convinced you should be working on this task in the first place. So it might not be conscious, but deep down, you know that it makes no sense for you to work on this. You're wasting your time. And it might be that this is a task that someone gave you a long time ago that's outdated now.

29:11It might be that the task makes no sense, is not aligned with your priorities. It might be that someone else should do the task. But rationally speaking, you should not be doing this. Then if the problem is coming from the heart, it means that at an emotional level, you don't feel like this task is going to be fun. It's not going to be enjoyable. It's not exciting. And if the problem is coming from the hand, it means that at a practical level, so maybe rationally speaking, you're convinced you should be working on this. Emotionally speaking, you feel like this looks like fun. But practically speaking, you believe that you don't have the right tools, the right resources, the right support network in order to complete the task.

29:55And what's great is that when you start systematically being curious like this about any kind of challenge or resistance that you're facing, you can also be systematic in the way you find solutions. So if the problem is coming from the head, you can go back to the drawing board, either on your own or with your team, if you're working with your team. And you can say, hey, I've been procrastinating on this because I'm not fully convinced that it makes sense. Can we talk about it? Can we brainstorm? Can we figure out a better approach? If the problem is coming from the heart, then you can make it fun.

30:29Grab your favorite colleague to go and do a little co-working session. Go to a coffee shop that you like. Give yourself a little reward. And if the problem is coming from the hand, then raise that hand. Ask for help. Get someone to coach you or mentor you or watch a tutorial or get a course or get the help that you need in order to do the task. instead of feeling stuck. When you ask yourself those questions of why am I procrastinating, you're going to come up with a few answers. But what's interesting is usually the answer that you find is the reason you procrastinate because of everything else as well.

31:15So you've figured out a way to rationalize it or hide it from yourself so you don't have to do the things you need to, but it's obscured enough so you don't see for the reason why you're procrastinating and get over the hurdle. For instance, a while ago, I had learned that when things are novel to me, that I procrastinate because I have to do something new for the first time, which probably means I'm going to make a mess, which is probably I'm going to get upset with myself. I'm going to get mad. I'm going to beat myself up. But once I learned that and realized, oh, well, it's because I'm walking into a black box.

31:52I'm walking into doing something new for the first time. And I easily combated that by letting myself know, I'm doing this for the first time. I'm going to do it terribly. And that's okay. So let me go make a mess. And having that understanding of what the procrastinating was and the right tool to get me over that hurdle, then I never had that procrastination ever again because it was always the same one. I love that. And yeah, you're really describing the hand one here where a lot of people, if they don't feel like they know exactly how to do it, they're never going to start because again, there's this fear of not doing it correct, of making mistakes, looking like a fool.

32:36And you touch upon another point, which I think is amazing, is that once you've had that conversation enough times, sometimes one time is enough, Yep. But very often, and it's the same for me, exactly the same as you, I noticed that I always go back to the same sources of procrastination. And after a while, that conversation takes two seconds. I'm just like, oh, yeah, I'm doing the thing again. And it's just a lot easier and you get unstuck a lot faster. Yeah, it's also something that we work with our clients with in the X Factor Accelerator, listening to them talk and understanding how they uncover their own procrastinations and hurdles with whatever cognitive distortions they have roped together to make it palatable to them.

33:23But as soon as we figured it out, I could always bring that up. Is that the way you're seeing it? Or is it this pattern, this unhealthy pattern that we've uncovered that has been in front of you for everything so far in the program? you got me yes it is but as you said once we've had that conversation once that's identified and i pull it out a few times they begin to catch themselves in it and so the learning curve is expedited when that happens so that's why we have so much fun i'm uh smiling and nodding while listening to you because it's it's actually funny how good we are at telling ourselves stories Oh, yeah.

34:07We're amazing storytellers. And I think that we're really good at telling ourselves stories, whatever, to make it a little bit more comfortable and whatever lies are needed for us to not necessarily look at what is actually happening.

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36:57And getting it right starts with good information. That's why America's beverage companies are sharing more information about our ingredients at GoodToKnowFacts.org. No spin, no judgments, just the facts straight from the experts for more than 140 beverage ingredients. Visit GoodToKnowFacts.org. I'd love to hear your response to those in our audience who are like, OK, I like the concept, but the idea of tiny, I want big wins. We talked earlier about that career ladder that everyone thinks they're climbing and wants to climb it faster. And this concept of a tiny experiment feels like, well, now I'm just slowing myself down.

37:38We just talked about stories, right? I think there's a very dangerous, toxic narrative in the media of the overnight success. And I think this is what is perpetuating this idea that you need to have this very big ambition and you need to go for that big goal and anything less likely than that is laziness. And this is very unfortunate, I think, because anything that is worth pursuing is going to take quite a few iterations. That's just the reality of it. There's nobody that woke up and went from zero to a thousand without actually trying different versions of a project and making a lot of mistakes, failing, learning from them.

38:27To me, tiny experiments is just a more structured way to do this. It's just a method to make it a little easier to go through that experimental phase that is absolutely necessary in order to grow. I don't think there's any way to bypass it. And yes, of course, there are exceptions and there are people who were maybe born with rich parents or got really lucky, got noticed by someone and became an overnight success. It does happen, but I don't think you should necessarily design your life based on kind of wishing that maybe you're going to get really, really lucky. and if instead you design your life around very simple systems where you show up, you let go of the outcome, you just do your best and you promise to yourself, you really commit to learning from your experiences to try to be as honest as possible as we were just talking about uncovering your narrative, those false narratives that we create around our path and our behaviors and our emotions.

39:27I think if you really commit to that consistency, that self-awareness, you are going to be successful. A lot more than someone who keeps on trying to figure out what is the big thing that they should go after. In our coaching, we really preach momentum and the impact that it has on your growth and development. And I think what's wrong with the ladder is a lot of it is just waiting for opportunity. We think that next opportunity, I have to wait for that promotion, I have to wait to get to the next rung in the ladder. When in actuality, doing tiny experiments can create what you call growth loops and can accelerate things, creating momentum that leads to the next experiment and even faster growth than you realized versus this visualization of a ladder that I have to wait until I can reach the next wrong or the next wrong is handed to me.

40:12So how do growth loops and this concept of like stacking these experiments really create that momentum and speed things up for us? The idea of growth loops is again, we talked about action and reflection. And so when you pair action and reflection together, you get a growth loop. A growth loop is the idea that every time you complete an experiment, you take the time to reflect on what worked, what didn't, and what you're going to use from what you learn for your next iteration. And in the book, I share a very simple pool for this, which I call plus minus next. And the idea is that you draw three columns.

40:52You can do that in a notebook, or if you use a digital note-taking app, you can just do three columns or three bullet points. And the first one is plus, where you write everything that went well. The second one, minus, is everything that didn't go so well. And the last one, next, is what you're going to tweak, what you're going to try next, what you're going to focus on next. The idea here is that you first acknowledge what went well. So a little bit of celebration for your wins, which is really important in order to maintain momentum. But you have the honesty of acknowledging what didn't go so well, what could have been better.

41:31So this is really, again, the self-awareness that is so important. If you only had the plus and the minus, then it would be static. It would just be observing what happened and you would actually go in circles if you kept on repeating the same thing over and over again without ever iterating, tweaking and adapting. And this is what the next part is about. The next part is about extracting knowledge from plus and minus, from what went well and what didn't go so well. And again, with this idea of forward momentum saying, OK, so this is what worked. This is what didn't work so well. What do I want more of?

42:08What do I want less of? And how am I going to adapt my approach? What small tweaks am I going to implement in my next iteration? And when you do that, you really ensure that you're not just going in circles, but that you're growing. you create those growth groups. What I love about that is reflection can often feel challenging, like overwhelming. How am I going to reflect on all this information? And you made it so actionable with a three column exercise that anyone can do in their journal, their digital journal, that allows them to keep moving forward. I know for myself, when I was doing cancer research, I'd go to a multimillion dollar building.

42:45I'd scrub in to go into a special room that's even more expensive with immunocompromised animals. And the experiment itself was in an enclosed situation where science was spending a lot of money to ensure that experiment completed. But life doesn't always work that way. Sometimes our tiny experiments lead to challenges where we get laid off or we have something happen to us where we can't finish the experiment. What's your recommendation in those moments where unfortunately the experiment didn't get to complete? I always tell people you have three options when it comes to an experiment. The first one is to persist, which is just to keep going exactly as you were going, which I know is not an option that seems obvious because a lot of people think that if something is working, you need to scale it up, go bigger, go more ambitious.

43:33But this is an option. You can just keep going with your experiment if it's working the way it's working. The other option is to pivot, which is you're going to change something and you're going to maybe make it a bit smaller, a bit bigger. And the last one is to pause it. And I intentionally call it pause and not quit or abandon, because you can actually shelf an experiment for a period of time whenever your current situation doesn't make it really possible for you to keep on going. And that doesn't mean you're never going to try that experiment ever again. Just means that right now is not the right moment.

44:12And so I would recommend it for anyone who finds themselves in that situation. one of those two last options. So either tweak the experiment a little bit so it becomes more feasible with your new circumstances or pause it. And that's really okay. Again, that only works if you have this honest conversation with yourself, this self-awareness of saying, those are the reasons why I need to either pivot or pause the experiment. And whenever my situation changes again, I will revisit and I will decide whether I keep going with a similar pact or whether I need to change it. It sounds good in theory, but sometimes those emotions get in the way and we need just a reset.

45:01You know, how do we turn those setbacks into opportunities if we've had to go through that reset moment? Those are actually amazing moments for experimentation. Those liminal moments, so liminal is a word I actually only discovered a couple of years ago and now I love it. So I'm just going to explain what it means in case other people have never heard it before either. So liminal means, it comes from the Latin lemon and that means threshold, that That means in between. That means transition. That means being on the doorstep of something. And liminal moments come with a lot of uncertainty. So we're not where we used to be anymore, but we're not in that new place yet.

45:47So maybe, yeah, we were just let go of our job, but we haven't found a new job yet. It can be happier moments. Maybe we just got engaged, but we're not married yet. Maybe we just learned that we're pregnant, but the baby's not here yet. And there are all of these in-betweens where our sense of identity becomes blurry. We don't have clear next steps. We're not quite sure what we want. We're feeling a little bit lost. The instinct that most people have in those liminal spaces is to try and cross them as quickly as possible. Get back to shore. Get back to safety. And this is why, for example, you might go and accept the first job offer that you get, or you might decide to go to the first university that accepts your application, and you go for the most obvious, safest option because you want to get back again to safety.

46:45If you can, I would highly, highly encourage you to look at those liminal spaces as spaces that are fertile for growth and for self-discovery. Because you don't have clear rules, because you don't have a clear path, because you don't have a clear blueprint. Yes, there is a lot of uncertainty and fear and anxiety. but there's also an opportunity to try different things, to experiment, to see if you might want to change things in the way you're approaching your life or the path that you're currently taking. And so I would say that the first step is to acknowledge and accept that it is completely normal to feel those emotions in those moments, in those transitional spaces.

47:30So if you're scared, if you're feeling anxiety, if all you want is to get back to safety, that's completely normal. It's just your brain trying to protect you. And it's your survival mode kicking in completely normal. Second, trying to now let your prefrontal cortex kick in and take over and kind of like, you know, say, OK, I know why I'm feeling this, but I actually want to explore. I want to be curious. I want to take a little risk here. I want to experiment. What would that look like? And again, it doesn't have to be big. What's a small thing I could try in that space that could be generative and that could allow me to discover something new, maybe about myself, about my work, or about the world?

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49:00Use Indeed's sponsored jobs to hire top talent fast. And even better, you only pay for results. There's no need to wait. Speed up your hiring with a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. When you really think to the pivots in your life, they largely come from those moments where there's just so much uncertainty that you're able to try something completely new and not hold so much of an outcome around it. And that moment of exploration creates the new pathway that allows you to find that purpose or find the meaning in your life that you're looking for.

49:40But in the moment, I know how hard it is emotionally with that massive amount of uncertainty that you're feeling to take that action. You know, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. I think those moments are so difficult that there's also the temptation which we all do to when when we're on the other side once we've experimented and we figured out something new that we wanted to do and we're kind of back to a sense of safety and people ask us how did you get there we tend to give them a very simplified narrative of how we got there we kind of gloss over the fact that there was a lot of messiness we were lost we tried new things and we weren't sure where we were going and um and i would really like it i think it would be amazing and the world would be a better place if everybody was a little bit more transparent about the messiness of the process it's great to have methods and and frameworks and obviously you come from a scientific background and me as well.

50:40And so we do like to have those protocols. And for me, they offer some scaffolding, but they're never going to completely remove the inherent messiness of figuring out what you want to do with your life. One thing that I think helps with the messiness is to go through it with other people who are in the messiness. And we see this transformation in our coaching clients all the time. You know, a lot of times we might be growth minded, but we're in a community of people who are fixed minded or like, don't work on your social skills or don't take up meditation. It didn't work for me. And we can feel like, oh, we're reverting to this fixed mindset.

51:16And yet you talk about social flow and we see it when clients join the program and they're surrounded by other people with curiosity, doing these tiny experiments together, reporting their results back each and every week, just how much growth happens and how that curiosity just expands across the whole group. And oftentimes we might feel that, oh, I can't share that with others or they're not working on these things and they don't care about it. But actually, if you just share what you're curious about with more people, you're going to find that social flow. I'd love for you to unpack how social flow really can create such opportunity with these tiny experiments.

51:51I think most people at this stage are familiar with flow states. So when you really, you lose yourself in the moment, in your work, you lose track of time and you really feel this sense of heightened focus and creativity. Most of the research on flow has been done on individuals, but there's recent research that shows that when you surround yourself with other people who are deeply curious and gross in an activity, going really, really deep and trying to understand something, you're also going to get into a state of flow more easily. So being surrounded with people who are highly curious and who are really focused on something while you also try to tackle a challenge is going to help you get into that flow state more easily.

52:39And that says a lot around about your community and your environment and the impact that it can have on your success. What's interesting is that not only that is going to help you be more successful over the long term, because you are going to experiment more. You're going to be more comfortable making mistakes and learning from them and sharing what you learned and learning together. But it's also going to make the journey more enjoyable. And that's very important too, because sure, you want to be successful, but why not make the journey enjoyable also? A lot of times it can be intimidating when you're just getting started to join a community where you feel like they're more advanced or they've been working these experiments longer, Maybe they're a better runner or they've been meditating longer.

53:24But actually what I found is really interesting is those are the moments where like the community support really comes into play. Like the welcoming of that person who's just getting started, who's doing their first experiment. You don't have to be advanced and you don't have to be someone who's been doing this for years to join a community that is working on these same areas and then feel that flow just entering that state. And that's why you see it at gyms, welcoming new members. that flow is present, even if you're intimidated and you're doing it for the first time. There's the added benefit for people who are a little bit more advanced.

53:58As a beginner, you don't think about that. You might think, oh, I just joined. I'm a bit of a burden. I don't know what I'm doing. But what you don't realize and you don't think about is that people who are a little bit more advanced than you, even just a couple of steps more advanced than you, benefit a lot from teaching you. And so when you have a community like that, a peer learning community, as you said, it can be the gym, it can be any kind of community of practice. Everybody benefits. It's not just when in the linear model with the latter, there's really this idea that knowledge only flows one way and you're just supposed to learn from people who are more senior than you.

54:38in this growth loop model with the social flow as part of the community where everybody is learning from each other. Knowledge is flowing in all directions. Everybody's learning from each other. And even the more advanced people are learning from the beginners. Now, one thing that we really appreciate about you is you do show the messy middle and you've built a brand around building in public and talking about your experiments in public, which I think can be very intimidating for a lot of people who are afraid of showing the messy middle, what helped you push past that fear of showing the messy middle publicly and actually build a brand around it?

55:14I did have to start small. So for me, although writing in English was uncomfortable at the beginning, it was still writing. It was just me in front of my computer. I had as much time as I wanted in order to be able to rewrite and correct my mistakes as much as possible. Once I started feeling a little bit more comfortable with that. I started experimenting with other mediums. And so I started recording videos. I was very uncomfortable doing this. So again, I started small. Once I was a bit more comfortable doing this, I started experimenting with giving talks. And again, this is something I've talked about a lot with my community and my audience.

55:56But I used to be absolutely terrified of public speaking. I used to have nightmares for weeks before I had to give a talk. I had stomach cramps and absolutely horrible. And so again, I had to experiment. I had to really find different ways to manage my anxiety, to become more comfortable and really to find my voice. And so every time I start feeling comfortable enough as part of kind of a part of my personal lab where I'm experimenting with lots of different things, I try and ask myself, what is another area of growth that I would like to experiment with? And so I didn't go from waking up from zero to now speaking in front of audiences of thousands of people.

56:41I literally started with just recording myself in front of my computer and uploading short videos online and then giving online workshops and then in person, etc, etc. So I've been learning in public for years, but it's been a very iterative process where I started small and I kept on expanding my zone of experimentation. I'd love to just hear what are a few tiny experiments that really surprised you or just lit you up knowing that readers of the book and your followers and your community members are putting this into action in their own lives. I'll share my favorite from the past six months, which I love, which was really surprising to me because it shows that sometimes it really doesn't have to be about taking a big action.

57:31So someone in my community is an artist, painter, has a home studio, and she had a major surgery that meant that she couldn't paint for quite a few months. And she developed anxiety around starting painting again. She felt like she kind of had lost her creative flow. She had been completely not touching any paintbrushes, not being able to do anything. She designed a tiny experiment where she said, for the next two weeks, I'm just going to go and sit in my studio. And that's it. For one hour, I think she said. I'm going to sit in my studio for one hour for the next two weeks. And I don't have to paint.

58:13I don't have to do anything. I don't have to force myself to do anything. I just have to go and sit and do that. And by the end of the two weeks, she was painting again, not because she forced herself to paint, not because she blamed herself or tried to find solutions or tried to change the outcome, but because she took a very gentle approach. And she started with a very, very tiny experiment of just showing up and putting herself in that environment that would make her feel a little bit more comfortable restarting painting again. So it's one of my favorite examples in the community from the past few months, because again, people would say, what just going and sitting in your studio?

58:52How is that? How is that doing anything? But obviously it was doing something since she's painting again. people don't give our emotions uh the credit they deserve for being as powerful as they are and and just how they affect us and everything that that we do and uh yeah even sitting in that studio for just a bit every day uh it's doing so much you're it's exposure you're getting acclimated to things. You're getting creative juices flowing again. You're putting yourself back in your realm. All of those things lend itself to slowly work into where we need to be. Exactly. And again, it's really about removing the self-blame and the self-judgment out of the equation and just asking and being curious instead and saying, that might help.

59:49Let's Give it a try. It's just a tiny experiment. People need to give themselves the credit they deserve as well. I know for myself, when I've done the tiny experiments thing in the past, and I'm producing just to produce, right? So I'm going to do this thing today, and I'm going to turn in something at noon, and it doesn't matter what it is as long as it's something. and because I'm doing this for the first time, it's probably going to be terrible. It's probably going to be bad. It's going to be a mess, but hey, I will turn in something at the end of the day. But every time that I've done that, I've caught myself then going back, trying to make it better, not wanting to turn in something terrible, but giving it a little bit of extra love, seeing how I can straighten it up.

1:00:41So it's that engagement and just taking action. And then, you know, let your own ethics and self-determination take it the rest of the way. I love that. I love how saying, I'm just going to write something by the deadline. It gets you started. This is the hardest part, just getting started. Yes, that's all you need. And then you care enough. You actually care enough about the work to get it to a place where it will be good. You just need to get started. Well, thank you so much for sharing tiny experiments with us today. I'd love for our audience to get started joining your community. Where can they find out more?

1:01:21They can go to nestlabs.com. I have a newsletter that I send every week and the book is available anywhere books are sold. Thank you so much. Thank you.

1:01:39And now comes part of the show where we showcase one of our X Factor Accelerator members. Take it away, Jack. Hi, my name is Jack from Colorado. I decided to join X Factor Accelerator when I was stuck in a rut and was seeking accountability I needed to reach my potential and consistently pursue my values. I found like-minded, similarly ambitious people, and each week we drive each other to be better. if you are on the fence about joining I encourage you to count to three and just do it because no life changing decisions are made on the fence thank you Jack it was a pleasure and an honor working with you two and good luck to you and all of your future endeavors

1:02:35You're a song of a tragedy Cause you had your taste Of black all weeks today Yeah, but I remember you Oh yeah, I remember you

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