Your Environment Is Controlling You | Leidy Klotz

21:05Johnny:and I think it also signals a lot about you like we're talking about zoom backgrounds even in the environment if we were to meet in person and I was to walk into your office and it's just piles and piles of manuscripts and papers and envelopes ripped open and you know peanut shells on the floor that's a much different signal you're sending than an aesthetic room that's manicured well-ordered and I'm gonna pick up on that and it's gonna make me feel something about you as an extension of you, the environment that you spend the most time doing your work in. And I think these signals are often lost in us.

21:38Johnny:And for me and my wife, we have a toddler now going out to eat and going out, staying out late is not ideal. So we've started hosting more and bringing families over to our place and really thinking about setting up an environment to be intentional around connection and a space that's safe for toddlers. And, you know, there is an intention behind the thinking around this environment to host and gather that not only creates connection for us, but creates a space of safety. And that's an area where we're like leaning into now thinking about our physical environment. And we've been over friends' houses who maybe don't have kids.

22:16Johnny:And we're like, well, this is definitely not a toddler safe place. And we've also been in environments that are completely chaotic and will immediately pick up Amelia and keep her close because of those same feelings and thoughts. But I think for many of us is we're starting to get to a place where we have the ability to change our environment, not just the agency, but the means and the capability to do so. I think many of us don't think as intentionally about it, especially if you're unsteeped in design. So let's unpack that a little bit more because I think those signals are just so important.

22:49Yeah, that's amazing. kind of intro story that, and I think one thing that you said, like just the mess, right? And I think that it's really easy. Like you said that, and now I'm looking around my office and there's a stack of, I asked my students for mid-semester feedback and each one of them gave me a piece of paper and it's been sitting there for like a month. I looked at it, but it's still like, it's sitting there and I've stopped noticing it, right? Because I've become habituated to like, that thing is just there. I don't notice it. But if you came in my office, you'd be like, oh, Lydie had a stack of random paper on his desk.

23:21And so really trying to like look when you're hosting or when you're trying to think about how other people are going to encounter your space, like trying to go outside and then come back in and say like, OK, pretend I'm experiencing this for the first time. What are the things that I would notice? And it's not necessarily that I care that much that you think that I'm a slob, but it's also like if you're thinking about that stack of paper we're not connecting right and so like cleaning up is an opportunity to just remove these distractions and you know in my house it's boxer briefs and like shin guards are on the floor and i stopped noticing them but if somebody came in like what's what is happening here right um and i think that but that can also go in the other direction i think where like if you've ever gone to somebody's house that's just so amazing right or there's some like amazing feature that like draws all the attention or it's so cool that it like makes you feel awkward.

24:15I think that can, that can also, you know, prevent the connection, right? Because if somebody is spending the time, it's hard to connect. We basically have enough cognitive capacity to connect with one person at a time. It takes all of our effort. And if you're trying to pay attention to the space, the connection is going to be much less. So basically like cleaning up both literally, but also like metaphorically in terms of like, okay, just like put the space in the background. It's not the star of the show here. And how do you have, like allow the people to do their thing? And I'd say, I think if the example might even be in the book of like ways to show that you've thought about who's coming over.

24:55And, you know, like if, if you've got people who have a toddler coming over the, probably the most important thing in their life is the health of that toddler. And And if you've like kind of shown that you've thought about that, that's a really nice way to kind of show, hey, you're welcome here. Right. And so you can send this message intentionally. And then the other side of that coin is if you even if you haven't done it deliberately, if it's unsafe for the toddler, then you're sending a message that like, hey, maybe we're not in the same life stage as you or whatever.

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27:58Johnny:And one of the ways that we've changed our environment is now with the intentionality of removing screens. So understanding that screens are there, but we don't want our toddler necessarily on screens as much as we are starting to move the seating in the living room to block the screen so that not every chair is assembled around the screen, which I think many of us set up our living room to do so. And what's been interesting as we've hosted gatherings is like the screen is no longer distraction, people don't even notice the TV. And instead, we've created an openness for that connection for great conversation by reorienting our furniture, not necessarily intentionally thinking about it for connection, but thinking about it more of, hey, let's block the screen from our toddler.

28:40Johnny:But it's been really interesting to see how that has changed the gatherings. Yeah. And I mean, it's a that is a great example. I wish I had put that in the book, but it's our spaces are sending messages all the time, right? And they never turn off. It's like free advertising that never turns off. And if you've got a toddler, and even if you're not showing them the screen, if the whole living room is set up to look at this TV, then what are the, what message is that giving them? Right. That's saying that this is a really cool thing that you should pay attention to. I love that example. I think the, the campfires is a cool one, like evolution, like from an evolutionary perspective and like thinking about how when you sit around a campfire, it's kind of this amazing situation where nobody says, oh, that's AJ's campfire, right?

29:29Even if you built the campfire, it's just that's a campfire. Everybody's on equal footing here. And if you think about that when you're hosting and what you're trying to do is make people feel comfortable, like that metaphor where like, OK, now it's not necessarily you're coming into my house and I'm like sitting at the head of the table. It's like, we're at a campfire that just happens to be in my house and we can have better connection as a result. I think about that. And I'm, I'm an introvert, like in, especially in large groups. And when I go to like a conference or, you know, I can talk in front of like the whole audience, but then when we get off the stage, it's like, Oh, this is so awkward, like coming up to people.

30:05But if I can kind of set up my own little campfire where it's like, Oh, I'll go find a table, sit at it, make sure that people see that they can like come join me and then that creates a an environment that i'm i'm much better in and i think you know a lot of other people are probably too i just that's a very important point and soon when aj brought up the idea of the living room everyone's facing the screen and my immediate thought was when did that happen well that happened with television of course what was there before that was the radio but not really as much as it was the fireplace, right?

30:44And it's not that the fireplace was entertaining, right? It was crackling, it was doing its thing, but everyone got warm there, everyone communicated. Because think about how precious our attention is and how everyone fights for it on the internet. and whatever wins our attention better have uh something important to say something to better our lives something that makes us better people something that makes us strive for something larger than our ourselves and you know arguably television had not really done that ever at least now we have the choice of where our attention is going to go more so than in the past i mean even if you wanted to read books you still had to go to the to the library unless your family owned a giant collection i've i've heard uh i forget who i was talking to but they were they were saying that well yeah but this that attention is so powerful and but the so much of the stuff that is trying to get our attention now is it's not just not giving us those like basic human needs.

32:03It's actively working against them, right? It's like giving us dopamine hits that are keeping our attention, but aren't making us happy in the long run, right? They're actually making us sad and depressed in the long run. And I think the fire, I hadn't thought about that before, but that is something that actually is, I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of connecting you with nature, connecting you with something bigger than yourself, right? And that's, it's not capturing all your attention. So you can have time to connect with others. And I think that's a good example of like, okay, what make the focal point something that is actually contributing to these deeper needs that we have.

32:42There was a deep respect for that fire to be in your house. It's amazing. It's like, who understands how a fire works, right? I understand how it works kind of, but it's free. It's amazing. And it's like, think about this is like the physical world versus screens, right? So the screens, like amazing stuff can happen on the screens. I get it, but it's fundamentally pixelated. Think about a fire. It's like, you have no idea what it's going to do next. It's constantly evolving. It's like three dimensional. There's, there's warmth coming from it. It's like the, the, the views there's smell. There's like, you can feel things like It's giving, it's touching all your senses.

33:21It cooks your food. And for a lot of that time, there was always sort of simple things that were made with that fire, heating up the teapot, some simple foods that can go in. And for a lot of families, they did a lot of household cooking in that fire as well. And in fact, it was funny. I saw, I think it was Twitter. I just saw some video with somebody showing something how they made in their house and half the comments were people freaking out about these people cooking with this fire in their house, losing it about how it's going to mess up the damper and the fireplace and all this stuff and catch on fire.

34:03And then the other half was people going, don't you know what these things were used for well before we had stoves in the house? And all the comments for it made me wish that I had that experience.

34:24Johnny:what i love about the fire metaphor is there's so many areas in our life where we can start to see it and apply it so whether we're hosting a gathering or like you said going to an event where there are naturally these spaces that act like that fire that everyone already gathers around so it's easier to approach people and join a conversation in that group setting than is to go stand off in the corner by yourself with the name tag on at the conference. There are these things that are happening in environments that are well designed. You go to Las Vegas, there's plenty of this intentionality going on around the fountain and the gathering that happens around the fountain and kids being drawn to it to throw coins in.

35:05Johnny:There are these spaces that happen at events that we're going to that we can leverage to our advantage if we're introverted or we're looking to create connection, to lower our stress and anxiety and create those great moments to interact with one another. And I think many of us might not be noticing them, you know, again, going in these spaces, if we're thinking internally about how are we perceived, what are we going to say, what's going to happen if someone doesn't interact with us, how are we going to feel? Those tend to carry the day for a lot of our listeners. So what are some things that we could practically do to start to see more of the environment, to take in more of the environment?

35:42And then as you shared in this book, use the environment to shape what we're thinking and

35:48Johnny:feeling instead of letting what we're thinking and feeling overwhelm us. Yeah, I think, I mean, one basic cue is that there's like just thinking about space before your screen, right? And then if you can't do it, like every time you look at your phone, right, let that be a cue to be like, well, have I actually scrutinized the space that I'm in? um i have one of my friends i had got read an early version of the book and she's like now i think about you every morning when i wake up because i look first at my phone and then i'm like oh wait i like i'm in this bedroom all the time but there's like really cool like light angles and things like that but if you're also doing that in the conference right it's really easy to like get into your own head or to you know kind of check out and just be on the screen and like you're saying it could be something as simple as just okay here's how this conference is set up over here, there are like, there's circular tables.

36:39And you know, there's random people talking over here, are is more of kind of like, it seems like those people all know each other, and they are, you know, kind of closed off, I'm going to go put myself in the environment, that's more like a campfire, because that's going to, you know, draw out the things that I want to draw out in myself. So I think the first step with all of this stuff is like noticing the space, which gives the, just the joy of connecting with something bigger than ourselves, but also helps us then analyze it and see how it can actually help us do things like connect.

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37:59Johnny:I also think many of us, when we're entering a new environment, feel that sense of uncertainty and that lack of safety. And for many of us, we choose not to leave our house because of that lack of safety. At times, we choose to order the door dash. We choose to have things come to us because we feel so safe. And then we're forced to go to an event. We're forced to go to something that is a new environment completely, and it can feel overwhelming. And I think a big part of it is starting to build a sense of familiarity before you go. And there are a lot of ways to do this. Digitally, you could hop on Google Maps.

38:33Johnny:You can start to see some photos that other people have posted on Yelp of the environment, of the restaurant, of the space. You're gonna be going to, to build a little bit more familiarity before you get there to recognize, oh, this is where the refreshments are. This is where the circular tables are, where it's easy for people to gather, to lower that uncertainty, to create that sense of comfort and ease and confidence when you walk in that new environment. That's a great one. I wish I had used that. In the book, I talked about like scouting it out beforehand, but I meant it kind of physically, but you can totally do that digitally.

39:06That's a great example of how these two worlds can work with each other. I think also like when you have the opportunity, if you can physically engage with the space, that's really helpful. I know like when I go on vacation, I feel uncomfortable if it's a new place the first day just because it's a new place. But I like to run. And if I go for a run and run around all the places, then you've taken on all that discomfort all at once. Plus, you've got the endorphins going a little. Plus, you figure out what's there. And I feel comfortable for the rest of the vacation. So I think that's that discomfort that you're talking about.

39:44The other side of that discomfort is this sense of accomplishment. I've pushed through a little bit of discomfort. Now there's this space, this whole place that I never felt comfortable going before. And now I feel comfortable going there. And that's like, we haven't talked much about growth, but that's like there's agency growth and connection. And that's the growth piece, right? Like by exploring and navigating new spaces, you're growing as a person and that feels good.

40:08Johnny:Well, I think many of our listeners are high performers who are looking to intentionally create focus and to push harder and to remove distraction in hopes that that will create enough productivity in their environment. But that cuts both ways. It doesn't necessarily help us to be in such a sterile, distraction-free environment to get maybe what we're looking for. So what should we really start to think about that keeps us from just going on autopilot and allows us to be intentional about spaces for productivity? I would say aligning the environment with the goal, right? The best example I've got of this, I talked to, I think it's Amy Marin.

40:49She has a like high performance podcast too, but she, um, she, she lives on a boat and she says when she's, uh, did it, did it pause there? Oh, sorry. Let me start again. Um, okay. So the best example I have of this is an author friend I was talking to, and she, she lives on a houseboat in Florida. And she said when she's writing, uh, just free rewriting, like drafting, she goes outside on the deck of the boat. But then when she wants to edit, she goes inside. And, you know, it's such a great example of, okay, now you're outside and you've got like, you're, you're more free and that's what you want.

41:29So you're aligning up your environment with the goals of your thinking. But then when you want to focus, you go inside. And I think all of us can kind of use that, right? The right space for one task isn't the right space for another task. There's classic examples, right? Of, you know, you do all this work at your desk and you've got to do the hard work. You can't just not ever think and not ever like just crank stuff out, but you have the epiphany when you go on the walk, right. Or in the shower. Sorry. I did. I do the same thing when I'm writing, filming and editing content. Each one is done in a, in a different space where your space is well the the kitchen is where i'm writing the uh and then there's another spot in the kitchen that is the filming spot and then uh editing is more it depends but sometimes i i like to edit laying down so either i'll hit the couch to edit or the bed and which can be dangerous because i have fallen asleep editing multiple times now don't don't fall asleep editing this the uh but i think that's i like i i'll second that one i i find it really rewarding to to work in like a position that i couldn't work in at work it's just like when i'm writing at my house i'll be like you know what i can sit in the reclining chair like i've earned the right to do this by like kind of getting away from just working for somebody else.

43:01And because I'm working for myself, I can do this. So that's a cool example.

43:06Johnny:Well, another example that I love was really thinking about home field advantage for sports fans. I know we hear about this all the time. You shoot better at home. You play better at home. You have the fans cheering you on. So you get better performance than going into an enemy territory, an enemy environment. But this also works in business. And it's something that Johnny and I kind of stumbled on. But when we would start business partnerships, we would always invite those potential partners to our place. Whereas many people choose a business lunch or to go out to a neutral environment, we would always choose, hey, come check out our space.

43:42Johnny:And we had set up our space for training very intentionally, very welcoming and warm for clients and naturally had enough seating to engage in business conversations. And we found that that actually led to more partnerships to more productivity in those interactions and more engagements with people that just going out for a power business lunch and going out on the town. Yeah. And I love how, you know, you set it up to be welcoming. Like one of the classic studies in this area is like people do negotiations and they set up the study so that one group has been in the space where they're going to negotiate for like 20 minutes.

44:19I don't know if that's the exact It's some tiny amount of time. But the group that's been there longer, like gets more from the negotiation. They're like more assertive, more aggressive. And it's like the only difference is like the 20 minutes in that space. But you use that in a benevolent way where you're like, OK, I want to be able to control the space to help connect with other people. And it's I mean, it's powerful thinking about whose space it is. Right. And I think when you're, you know, having somebody come into your space, expecting them to perform the same way as, you know, if it was in their space is foolish.

44:54And you can think about this with like job interviews, for example. Are you we do this in academia, like where you've got a person coming onto your campus and they're like trying to take in all this stuff about the campus while having this like super important conversation that's going to potentially determine like the course of their career. And it's, you know, we we do things to kind of mitigate it where you're giving them tours and separating the that part of it from the in-person part. But to expect them to, you know, it's important to pay attention to the to the space that this stuff is happening in.

45:30I realized that I Michael Jordan on the road, like he's like the greatest winning athlete of all time. But he's his his record on the road was like not statistically better than average. like 50 % on the road, best basketball player of all time. And so, I mean, it matters. I think, so I'll give a couple more examples here. Like when we think about, so this is, you know, setting up the environment, but also sometimes we have to go into other environments, right? And so thinking about whether it's a situation where you want to kind of scout it out ahead of time versus a situation where you want to, you know, the environment is going to be disorienting and you just want to like drop yourself in there at the last minute so that you can focus on the activity.

46:16And if you think about like, I'm sure you do speaking where it's like there's a green room, right? And so you're in the green room and then you go out on the stage and you talk and do your thing. That's something that has happened. You know how to do that, right? And it's not, it's, that's better than, you know, if you have to sit in the audience and then think about what you're going to say and like all the people are around you and then you have to get up there and talk, that's harder because you're trying to deal with the situation before you're just dealing with the mental part. So trying to, but then the other option is like, well, if you can get there a week ahead of time and then get to know everybody that in the space, then that is going to, then it'll feel like your space and you'll do even better.

46:56Johnny:Yeah, I think oftentimes we don't think about the signals that are sent in our space. We might think about the status signals of what we're wearing, what we put on ourselves, but we don't think about the intentionality of the status in our space and our environment. And going back to that earlier example, many of us started to recognize, okay, maybe our Zoom background wasn't very compelling. It was very white, very plain. Maybe we had a coworker call us out on it and then we'd put an item or two. But I think for many of us, these environments, when we walk into them and we go to someone else's home and we go to someone else's office, there's a lot of signal that is available in the environment that we have under our control that maybe we haven't thought about.

47:37Johnny:And I know for the listeners, they're saying, great, I don't have the money to redesign my office. I don't have, I'm not an interior designer. I can't afford an interior designer. How should they be thinking about what we shared with them today with that intentionality and just some practical things that they can do that don't require a massive renovation or a massive budget, but can have a real impact on their life? the first one is just moving among the places to which you have access right so if you say you're like an office worker and you yes you're having you know you can meet the person in one room but you could also meet them in another room right and you can also like get to that room and set up the chairs in a circular pattern right so there are all or you could have like you guys were thinking about we could have this business lunch here or we could bring it to our office so really trying to align the like the spaces that you have access to with the task that you're um that you're trying to accomplish and what makes sense and that's you know that costs zero dollars um i think that is probably that's that's the biggest one um the other thing is you know it it doesn't have to be a huge renovation like these things can the relationship between our environment and our and what's happening in us is cyclical, right?

49:00So it's like you put something in the environment, it shapes us. We put something in the environment, it shapes us more, right? This is, it's a feedback loop. And so if you can make a small change in the environment, that can build on itself. And if you think about, maybe it just starts with in your office, you start by, okay, we are going to like, start using the conference room for random things that we need to get done because nobody's using the conference room. I'm going to use it as a second office. And then all of a sudden people see that you're doing that and they're like, oh, we have more flexibility in the space.

49:35And then the boss lets more people do it. And then all of a sudden, like you're creating a workplace culture that is more like open and aligned, like people have more autonomy over what they're doing. So I think that like keeping in mind that sometimes these like small spatial actions can reverberate um that's another it doesn't need to be a massive top-down renovation in fact that is yeah that kind of goes against the what we've been talking about yeah i think one thing that i

50:08Johnny:really took away from the book is just the impact of nature i think starting with plants and bringing more natural elements into your spaces and seeing which of those move you you know i've i've gone in offices where someone has a Zen sand garden on their desk that they doodle and play with in between meetings and that natural rock sand environment does it for them. Some people have to be in a completely green, floral environment to really feel that. But I think bringing nature in and sometimes just reorienting our ability to interact with nature, like you said, shifting your desk to be facing the window instead of having the window behind us.

50:49Johnny:There are some simple ways that we could bring in those elements that create that sense of calm, that create that sense of connection to the outside world that I think can make us more productive, can make us happier and naturally feeling more comfortable. So, yeah. And, you know, if it's a nice day, you can go outside, right? You can find a space outside. And I mean, that's definitely in my, you know, rotating options of spaces is like, okay, this is a, this is a task that I can, I'm writing in a notebook. I can totally do this by the pond that's on campus. And, you know, that's, there's a lot of nature there.

51:26Johnny:so in in putting this book together what's one behavioral change you had in your own life maybe it is that going out in nature more um i think the noticing probably i know that's not i mean just being much more aware of the spaces that i'm in and what i can do for them and then probably thinking about and then the the the growth piece right like not trying to recognize when I'm in a rut. You know, Johnny, your example of like, I do this in my living room, I do this, and I have that same thing, but there's not, sometimes there's not intention. Like, why am I sitting in this chair? I could sit anywhere.

52:04And if I sat in this room, there's like all these windows and it's warmer. And so trying to recognize when I get in a rut, either with how I'm using like my house or how I'm like moving places, sometimes how I walk around campus and it's like, just go a little different way and you notice all these new things.

52:23Johnny:I love that. Thank you so much for joining us. Where can our audience find out more about your work in the book? The book's available anywhere books are sold. It's called In a Good Place. And then my parents gave me a good Google name. So LeidyKlotz.com, L-E-I-D-Y-K-L-O-T-Z. And yeah, everything's there. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me.

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