Stephen A. Smith: Laid Off, Rehired & Now Running The Show, Canelo vs. Crawford & His #1 Interview

26:34You're going to cut a corner. you're going to take a shortcut if all you think about is the glory. You got to think about the pain. That's why when Magic Johnson was on First Take a few weeks ago, and he was talking about, I said, I talked to him about what makes a superstar. He said, somebody that could go on the road and sell out the building. And I love that quote. And I said, okay, what makes a superstar player? He said, you got to win. He said, but more importantly, it got to pain you to lose. It got to hurt. It got to hurt your soul. You know, it can't be something. I mean, I was there. I tried.

27:09Now, you know, I gave my best effort. Did you? Did you? Because if it hurt that much, you wouldn't be able to summarily dismiss it that easily. You can't. And that's the kind of stuff that we look for when we look at greatness on any level. That's that's my number one thing that I love about covering sports. It doesn't matter what it is. And I'll tell you something because you have a lot to do with this. One of my favorite moments that really illuminated what I'm about as a sports pundit and commentator and journalist and all of this stuff was that time we were at Canelo, Triple G, the rematch.

27:50And I'm sitting here with my non-fighting ass self. And I am debating with you and the Chalos. Yeah, yeah. Right? And Errol Spence. I think Errol Spence. I think Errol Smith was there, but I knew you and the Chalos were there, right? And I turned around, and I went like this. So I'm talking, and all of y 'all started laughing because I was talking. And then I went like this. I said, hold up. Champion, champion, champion, champion. All of y 'all are defeated, and I'm the one arguing with y 'all because all of y 'all thought that Canelo had won the second fight. You articulated it was the body shot, the body.

28:27He was tearing up Triple G's body. And I was like, oh, no. No, no, no, no. And then I just caught myself and I was like, undefeated champion, undefeated champion. Did that math real quick. I might need to shut up. You know what I'm saying? And the reason why I use that as an example is because I'm covering it, I'm chronicling it, but y 'all know. Yeah, we live here. You see what I'm saying? And so because you know what my greatest my greatest Appreciation Is What I receive from great ones My job to me is to articulate to the masses who don't have the access that I have to the great ones You know what I'm saying?

29:16And that is what I try to I don't try to act like I'm that What I try to say is I know what it is because I've been taught by them. Yeah, but you also got it in you yourself. I think so. In your lane and in your field. In my lane, yes. You know, you don't do what you have done and what you're doing at the level. You know, obviously, you know, anybody can have a moment. But consistency is not talked about enough. And to be at the level you've been at, you know, you got to be different. You know, you hear people say all the time, man, you can't compete well and have a fear of losing. What I do know about myself is I had a fear of losing.

29:54Right. And I don't know if the fear of losing was greater than my love of winning, but I do know they work for me. They both work for me. Yeah. Because you can't find, especially in a pugilistic sport like boxing or UFC, that's the one point in time where I monitor cockiness. I don't believe that it should be completely stripped from you if that's your personality, because what works for you works for you. But I have to be able to look at you and feel like it's healthy because somebody has a license to assault, if not kill you. And if you can't exhaust every means and measure to be in the best, put yourself in the best possible position to be successful, I lose respect for you.

30:49Because it's like somebody's got a license to kill you. You understand that? They're trying to hurt you, bro. They're trying to hurt you. And if they do damage to you inside a boxing ring or inside an octagon, you do understand. They're not going to get arrested or anything. I mean, this is legal. Lifelong effects. You've got to be ready. Yeah. And I remember somebody, I remember people looked at Floyd, Money Mayweather, and they thought he was so damn cocky and all of this other stuff. But I know him. And so I remember being around him before the Gaddy fight. Before Gaddy, God rest his soul. That's young Floyd.

31:19That's pretty boy. Before the Gaddy fight. The Eagles were playing in the Super Bowl in Jacksonville against Tom Brady and the Patriots. And I said to Floyd, we had a nightclub. And Floyd in there. I said yo man, that's the modern day Rocky right there. Come on bro. Why you in here? And Floyd grabbed my arm, excuse my language. And he said, ain't no mother with six losses gonna beat me. He said that? Zach words. No mother with six losses beating me. That's what he said. And I looked at him and I knew how serious he was. and so I go back before the fight to watch Gaddy's fights and I'm saying if there was ever a thing that I never believed about Floyd was when Floyd said he didn't watch other fighters I don't know whether it's true or not but I never believed him when he said that because I said he can't be this confident without even watching somebody he's got to at least see him, you know?

32:23And I went to the fight. It was in Atlantic City. And he picked Gaddy up. I mean, at one sequence, he hit him with like six straight lines. One of his best fights. He was magnificent. One of his best nights. And I just said to myself, okay, that's a healthy cockiness. Because what he was saying is, I know something you may not. Yeah. He wasn't saying, I'm this, I'm this, I'm that. He's saying, I know something you don't. Which says to me, he prepared himself. But that's where the fear come in at, too. Right. And I know this just about myself. That's what got me up early, and that's what kept me late.

32:57That's right. I can't allow, I thought about Fight Night. I thought about the seven, eight, nine roles of Press Road. I thought about that. And it wasn't just about the media, but y 'all play a role in this too, because it's some stuff y 'all saying, and I'm not saying people, you know, you can have your opinion, I think he gonna lose with it, but it's the disrespect. But it's that kind of stuff where I'm looking at y 'all and I know, man, you got your laptop open. I see the light on your face and it's tonight the night. I thought about that. I thought about Sunday morning when I woke up and came to and realized, man, what happened last night?

33:35Oh my God, I got beat. And I got to look at my wife and look at my kids. That's the kind of stuff that drove me. That was the fear. Especially in a sport like boxing. But that was the fear part, though, that caused me to go to that level where - Look, man, you can lose a basketball game. You can lose a football game. you get knocked out that's embarrassing you have lifelong consequences lifelong consequences you get knocked out that's embarrassing so again it's levels to this and to me in a pugilistic sport that that's the peak and and one of the things that I applauded about you know you you were far more delicate than somebody like a Floyd was but it didn't make Floyd wrong when he was that's his business.

34:14He was like, yo, you ain't got to get in the ring. Yeah. He said, we could train. I appreciate y 'all help and or fight night. That's me. That's me. And I always appreciated that because so many people in the media would say when he would say something, it's about me, you know, me first. And they will record that like a negative. And I'm going like this. well who's this supposed to be about he the one that gotta get in there you can't help him fight night he's all on his loan you can say whatever you want but when he get clipped his name gonna be the headline what you gonna do then and so I appreciate that and it's what I'm saying is that kind of mentality and that education is what I can talk to a boxer and apply it to a basketball player can apply it to a football player So when I'm thinking about that, if you're an athlete and let's say, for example, you have a problem with me, my attitude is look in the mirror because there's no way that I'm not going to listen to your story.

35:22If I don't know your story enough, you didn't want to tell it. I've been around. I'm not hard to find. I got the platforms. You want this message disseminated? I'm right here. If you want to ignore that and you wanted to leave it up to me, then don't complain Because it's not like I'm avoiding Giving you there's plenty of times. I've been on the air and I'm going like this. This is what they said Say because it's your story. So I want to contextualize it properly even if I disagree with you I want to be able to say yo, I hollered at him. I hollered at him and here's what he said One of my favorite moments in recent memory was when you came on my show after Tyson fought Jake Paul.

36:03So I'm looking at it as a pundit, and I'm like, if Jake Paul do something to this man, I said, nah, this is wrong. This man is 30 years older than him. You know what I'm saying? He's approaching 60 years. You can't do this, you know? And I'm thinking about that because, and I felt that way when I saw Mike walking to the ring because I saw the brace on him. I saw a limp. He was walking gingerly. He was walking gingerly, and I was nervous. And you came on afterwards, and you said, yo, had Jake heard him, the boxing world, me included, we'd have had a problem. That would have been a problem, yeah.

36:40It would have been a problem. And I was like, see? Because what that said to me is that I'm in sync. You know what I mean? It's like, because I would not have come up with that had I not thought about past conversations with you, from everybody you to Floyd to Hearns to Sugar Ray to Hagelin everybody in between. I would have never deduced that kind of thought process unless I got that from y 'all. And so to me, you're absolutely right. It's all of that thinking that goes into it and learning from greatness. Man, I want to get back to the timeline, man. You know, man, I... Steven, I struggle, man, reading about your father.

37:22I struggle man because you know my father wasn't a perfect man but he was present and my mother you know she had her struggles and that's one thing that my dad always said he said man I may struggle and have my stuff but I'm here I'm not going nowhere and I was able to take that and be present for my kids and all of that man but seeing that kind of movement man and hearing about you at 10 years old, you and your mother looking for him and finding him at your uncle's house. Around the corner. And it's another one man, and you start, you say, man, all heck broke loose. And then y 'all getting into your mother, and then him telling you, y 'all got to go.

38:03But hearing you at 10 years old say, I learned that night that my mother and my siblings were not as important as the other family. Right. I mean that's heavy how did you deal with it how did you process it how did your mother deal with it

38:28to watch

38:34to man it's just

38:39to bring back to harken back to that moment I want any man, especially any black man, who loves their mama the way we love our mamas, to imagine your mother knowing about somebody else. and the combination of pain and fury that that breaks. But then I want you to take that same feeling and imagine being an eyewitness to your mother confronting that moment emotionally and physically because she was there and your father to her face, right in front of your face, pushing her out the house to shield her from the other woman and sending her home. So the typical woman in a situation like that where your man is with another woman is going to have a level of fury.

40:13But then to watch him instead of being contrite, apologetic, and desperate for you, for your forgiveness, your understanding, or whatever it is in that moment, instead uses that moment to reject you and push you away with the woman in front of you and your son by your side?

40:42What man can witness that and be okay with it? You see, we all go through what we go through. And one of the things that I abhor in our society is the way black men are stereotyped and excoriated because they have this belief that black men are not good fathers when, in fact, there's a whole bunch of us that are great fathers. No matter what's going on in our relationship with the person, in terms of a relationship, that's entirely different from co-parenting and parenting. And we're big on that. in a lot more situations than we're giving credit for. And so I'm protective of black men in that regard because I know how much we love our children.

41:38I know how much we love our mamas. But what my father did that day was emblematic of every black man's greatest fear about how the world reviews, or views rather, a black father. and you tend at the time so you can't really say much but you hold on to those memories you never forget it and so as time went on I remembered all of these things when ultimately my father and I had our confrontation later on in life but it wasn't the one incident per se involving my brother and you know his passing and the insurance money and all of this other stuff But it was the compilation of all the things that he had done.

42:26And the difference between my my sisters and I is that my sisters were fixated on the infidelity. I was fixated. On the suffering. He caused my mother because she was doing his job. there's plenty of relationships that are not working out in terms of marriages or co-parenting relationships where a man is holding it down as he's handling his responsibilities he's just not with the mom or they're not vibing or they're going to get divorced or whatever it is but he's still handling his business as a father and as the leader of the household he's making sure that she doesn't have to deal with anything beyond the emotional state of affairs involving their relationship as husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend or co-parents or whatever.

43:19To me, that's life. What should never be a part of life is that you're a man and you have an obligation to children that you brought in this world and you said, bump it, let her handle it. I don't want that. There's no excuse for that. And any man, I don't give a damn whether it's 100 years ago, 50 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, now, 10 years from now, 20, 30, 40. When you are a man, you have a responsibility to do everything in your power to provide for your family. That's right. Even if it means death. That's right. Due to trying. That's right. You have that obligation. And if you don't fulfill that, I have no respect for you.

44:05You know, my daughters are one and two years away, respectively, from graduating from high school. I'm not a father. I'm a daddy. They don't say father. They say dad or daddy. I'm a daddy. That's right. You understand? And the greatest moment is going to be when they graduate from high school. And then after that, when they graduate from college, because I positioned myself to position them to do that. So boom, I did my job. Now, everything else is dressing. but all of these years have been about doing that job and to me if you a father how could you think differently I don't comprehend that and I don't want to comprehend I don't want to now as you just said that there's no excuse uh for that but have you throughout the years learning your father's history have you have you connected any dots where oh his father was like that or his grandfather, what example did he have?

45:10Not his grandfather, not his father. It wasn't anything like that. It was, and I'm going to tell you exactly what I believe it is. I know it is. Man, pride hurts us all if too much of it shows up. My father was perfectly fine. Struggling, but having the six kids and he was the man. Breadwinner, et cetera, et cetera. But when it wasn't enough and my mother went and got her nursing degree and she had a career, all of a sudden it was a different animal. Really? Because they got to supplement you. And when you have to supplement income and you have to bring, you have to step beyond your own boundaries at that particular moment in time.

46:07Remember, my mother and father were born in the 40s and late 30s, right? My mother was born 1941, father was born 1938. You know, you had that going on. And so what you have is a situation where if you are of the mindset that this is the way it's supposed to be, and there's a deviation from that, and it compromises the level of dominion, control, or whatever you want to do, you'll notice that when we look at you know your father my father our grandparents or whatever that old school stubborn mentality about how things are supposed to be get in the way of it so i've heard i heard him use that rationale one time really and i said to him fine how come that didn't apply to you still fulfilling your responsibilities since you old school because back in the day, you gotta remember, women weren't working.

47:03There was so much that women were allowed to do. Think about that. Think about how restrictive our society was towards women. So men had to hold it down. So if we gonna be old school to justify how we behave in that regard, how come we couldn't hold on to old school mentality and tactics to make sure that we enforce the mindset that says you take care of your family. You don't leave that to somebody else. If you black in this country and you old enough, one of your all time favorite shows was Good Times. James Evans Sr., poor Chicago projects, JJ Evans Jr. and all of this, Thelma with her fine ass self at the time and all of this other stuff, Michael the kid, and you know, all of this stuff.

47:53They didn't have much. But who brought home the bacon? Or damn near died trying. Who was that? That was him. Why was that the mentality? Because that's the way it was supposed to be. And we try to teach differently in this day and age. Certain old school things, I don't want to go away. I don't want it to ever be comfortable. You know, you got cats out here, it could be some gigolos, you know what I'm saying? A woman paying their bills and they living with the women or whatever. It's a lot going on out here, man, in the streets. You can't, I don't give a damn how much money she has. We ain't living according to her means.

48:33We living according to mine. I'm not living off no woman. I don't care what our society says in this day and age. I'm not being misogynistic or anything like that. I'm respecting and valuing women from the standpoint of showing you, yo, if I'm the man in your life as a dad, as an uncle, as a father, as a husband, whatever, I'm going to be focused on holding up my end of the bargain to make sure that I'm not a debilitating presence in your life. I'm not a negative. I'm not a liability. I'm an additive. Yes, right. You know, that's my responsibility or die trying. and I don't believe that kind of mentality should ever go away that's just how I roll I'm not I don't mind work anyway I'm training my dumb position of my daughters to work get yours get your college education get your money don't quote unquote need but in the same breath when you have understand that it ain't just to take care of yourself you got you got to remember your responsibilities to take care of your family too but you also got to be with a young man that's gonna hold it down or die trying.

49:42Come on. You know what I'm saying? You can't, I ain't wanna think about some no good punk with no ambition. Trying to date your dog. Lazy, but trying to come to my door. Yeah, yeah. And they coming to meet me. We gonna have a problem, bro. We gonna have a problem. Because the first thing I'm gonna look at is how much he wanna work. What are you doing with your life? What you got going on? What you got going on? Where you going to school? What you studying? What's your ambition? Don't come to me in no college student. I don't know. What? Yeah, that's a problem. Who? My time? It's a non-starter, my brother.

50:17It's a non-starter. We can't even. It's a non-starter. We can't really go past that, man, with my baby girl. Let me tell you something. You saw Martin Lawrence and Will Smith and Bad Boys 2. You understand? When that cat came to the door. You understand what you're doing here? You know what I'm saying? All of this stuff like that. Nah, it wouldn't be funny with me. It ain't happening. it would be more like 50 Cent than the thieves. When he took the dude in the garage. When he took the girl back with his boys in the garage. Like, you know, I don't, you know. That's my baby. That's what it is. You got two.

50:48I just got one daughter. I got four boys, one girl, but you got two daughters. Yeah. So, it's, the truth is, if you don't respond like that, that's abnormal. That's strange. Yeah. I'm going to ask you this and I'm going to move on. Sure. Have you found forgiveness for your daddy? Have you, have you, have you forgiven him? I forgave him the day I gave his eulogy. Come on. When he passed away in August of 2018, 14 months after my mother had passed away,

51:19I was, we were going to the funeral service, and my sister Carmen, she said, oh, God, no, because I called at 7 o 'clock that morning. Funeral was at 10 o 'clock. I called at 7 o 'clock that morning. I said, I just want to let you know I'm giving a eulogy. She's like, what? Because everybody knew how I felt about it. Karma's like, Steve, no, Steve, no. I said, it's not a request. I'm just letting you know I'm informing you what I'm going to do. I'm giving a eulogy. She said, Steve, please, please, Steve. She said, oh, God, no. Steve, please. She said, Steve, please. What would mom want, Steve?

52:06Because my mother, to her dying breath, loved my daddy and defended him. And so I hung up the phone with her, and I'm driving to the funeral home. I'm living in North Jersey at the time. I'm driving to funerals in Queens, New York, about an hour away. And I pick up the phone, and I call Pastor A.R. Bernard from the Christian Cultural Center. and I said to him here's where I'm at here's how I'm feeling because I remember you know during my mother's service I was so mad because she had sacrificed so much and so much of her life her good times had been stripped of her and I was just furious right and I just said even up to that point even up to that point and I said I got some things I want to say and Pastor Bernard said you've earned the right to say it he said, but I would caution you that there's nothing wrong with forgiveness.

53:10And they gave me some scripture from the book of Matthew. And he talked to me for about a half hour and he said, so you could still say what you say, but remember that whatever you say, you're going to have to live with because pops is gone, but you're still here and you're going to have to live with it. He says, so know that before you say anything, And that way, whatever you say, you'll know you can live with it. I said, cool. And so I went to the funeral. And there was so many people there. Because my father was like the life of the party. See, you know, in the home, it was different. Outside, my father, I mean, kids loved him.

53:54Neighbors loved him. My father was very outgoing. He was a sports star. He could play basketball. He was a great pitcher. Got drafted by the New York Yankees in the 50s. But my mother was pregnant with my older sister Linda, but my father, my father, and Calypso dance, we love Calypso music from the islands, West India, and you know, all of that stuff going on. So, my pops, my pops was like the life of the party, so he had a lot of friends. All of these people rolled up, and they said nothing but the most glowing things about him. You know? Nothing but the most, I mean, you would have thought he was Moses or Noah or somebody.

54:28I mean, one of the prophets. I mean, it was unbelievable, you know? And so the family sat there because they were waiting to see who was going to go up and send. All my sisters turned and looked at me because they knew, here I come. And nobody wanted to say anything. They was like, and I got neighbors there that were, you know, neighbors that were, my sisters are all older than me. So my neighbors were their age, three, four, five years older than me, that kind of thing. and they were all there, all the people that grew up in Hollis with us, all of them. And I rolled up there to give the eulogy, and my first words were, it was very, very nice to hear everything everybody had to say about my father.

55:15But you need to understand that when it comes to his children, we have an entirely different version of him. I said that. my cousin Derek who I'm very tight with my cousin Derek goes like this thought it was over my you know close family friend used to date my sister he was like mm-hmm you can see him doing I'm looking at every them you know and my sister's like oh god no oh god no you know and two of my neighbors they were the Johnsons, Billy and Tony, they were like, don't do this. You know what I'm saying? I mean, everybody, because everybody, they know I can speak and they were like, they were expecting me to just go in.

56:03And I was about to. I went like this. I said, my father, knowing my nephew, how much my nephew loved his granddaddy, my nephew Josh, TJ and all of them, how much they loved my grandpa and stuff. I was like, bottom line is my father wasn't a very good man. There were a lot of things that he was lacking and stuff like that. And then it was like for a minute and everybody was like, oh my God. And then in the middle of all of that, I said, but here's the thing. I said, my mother, the greatest woman, the greatest human being I've ever known. know nothing about sports. I said, I'm pretty popular. I'm on ESPN.

56:50I'm known worldwide. And my mother's like EPS and whatever it is. I don't know where he works. Because she doesn't follow sports. She doesn't care. She don't care. And I said, but here's the thing. I said, my mother knew what a fastball was. She knew what a no-hitter was. She knew what a home run was. She knew what a stolen base was. She knew what a ball, she knew what a walk was. I said, my mother knew all of these things. And I said, there's only one reason she knew that. Because of him. Because he was so special to her. The greatest woman and the greatest human being I've ever known. I said, that's why she knew.

57:31So if somebody so precious felt this way about this man, there must have been something. And then I went down the list of all the great things my father used to do to make us laugh and to make us have a good time and all of that stuff. And the forgiveness and the nostalgia and all of that stuff kicked in during the speech. Really? Not before. So you didn't get it after talking to Pastor? I didn't get it after talking to Pastor. I got it. Pastor helped me formulate my thoughts and make a decision, but the real forgiveness kicked in as I was talking about him. And I was remembering a family picnic or I was remembering a party we had gone to, or a family gathering or whatever, and I was remembering the jokes that he would tell that would make us laugh and all of this other stuff.

58:24And I ended it by saying, no, he wasn't perfect, but he was my dad. Wow. And I love him. Wow. God bless him. Man. I moved on. Man, that's powerful. That's powerful, man, for many, many reasons. number one so everybody in the room didn't have a heart attack. Right. They sound like they was on the I Can Only Imagine how they was looking like, no, Stephen, they don't do it. But for yourself, people don't realize that, man, about forgiveness, man. They think that by holding the grudge, by holding the issue, the offense, whatever it is, that I'm holding you hostage. Right. And people also don't realize that sometimes, not sometimes, when forgiveness is needed, it's even toward the dead.

59:07Yeah. because that person that's in that grave that's no longer living, they still hold something against, they still got something that's holding you if you don't release them and push it away, man. So that, man, that's powerful, man. And I just, you know, I know this happened many, many years ago, but just hearing this for the first time, I really appreciate that, man. And I think it has a lot to do with your success as a man, as a father, just you being the person you are. It's hard to hold something like that, man. Had I not forgiven, I would have been preoccupied. That's what I'm saying. I would have been preoccupied.

59:38I would have been distracted. I wouldn't have been I wouldn't have been able to tap into my best self because I would have been holding it. That's my point. Yeah. So, man, that's powerful. Man, anybody listening on this broadcast and you got something to let go and let it go. Push that thing. Let it go. Let it go. But they ain't apologize. They might not. But get it off of you so you can keep being who you need to be and soaring the way you need to soar. So, man, I appreciate you sharing that. But the other thing about your story, which is similar to mine, is you got real stuff going on in life.

1:00:05You got pressures. You got things you working through as a kid. But sports was a tremendous asset and outlet for you. And basketball, you know, you played all other sports in the streets and different things like that. But basketball became your love and your thing. And it got you a scholarship at, you know, HBCU. Winston-Salem State. Yep, Winston-Salem State, which you have a, you know, you still do a lot for HBCUs to this day. But I need you to clear something up for me. Yep. I don't know who made it. But you know what I mean? out there, Stephen A. Smith's average one and a half point. You set that record straight on your podcast.

1:00:40Zero. But I'm saying, talk to the people, why is that not true? I cracked my kneecap in half. First year? Yes. So what happened was is that I never got to play. I would come there and literally to this very day, Like, I'm sitting here with you right now. It's 33 years removed from college. I cracked my kneecap in half in 1989. I was at a Division II school. Six-inch screw was in my knee. I'm on the ball, I'm on the court for five minutes, I could ball a little bit. I'm limping right after. I'm not lasting longer than that. Chronic tendinitis, kneecap, never strong, always slim to begin with, and I was never healthy.

1:01:35So I was sitting there going like that, where the hell y 'all get the one and a half boys from? I mean, how the hell you get the one and a half boys from? Y 'all being generous. I got my scholarship before I cracked the kneecap and half. You understand? And then they kept me on scholarship because I came back after. I had to leave school to come back to Queens, New York to rehab because my mother's medical insurance paid for my rehab because the Division Two school didn't have. They didn't have the facilities necessary to be able to rehab you like that. I said, so when they came, I said, I came back and won my scholarship because even on one leg lip and I would bust some people behind.

1:02:13But at the end of the day, the bottom line is I didn't play like what y 'all talking about. I might have appeared in two games for a minute because I'm lipping thereafter. I'm lipping thereafter. Coach used to joke, you know, I'm from Kentucky. He said, you know what we do to horses they bring that got a lip in Kentucky? Put them down, yeah. We shoot them. That's what he would say. He said, I should shoot your ass. That's what he would joke around and say. You got a scholarship and you can't play it. Because I was always lipping. I'm like, I'm fine. I'm like, it's no problem. And this is the thing that kills me.

1:02:44I'm like, so I go in this industry and I march my way up the ladder from an intern at the Winston-Salem Chronicle, the Winston-Salem Journal, the Atlanta Journal of Constitution. I get my high school job at the New York Daily News. I get a college job at the Philadelphia Inquirer. I climb up seven different damn promotions. I go from there. I'm on television with CNN, and Fox Sports, and ESPN, and I'm in my 50s, and now y 'all want to bring up that I ain't do shit? I'm like, ain't y 'all about 30 years late? But if that makes y 'all feel good, knock yourself out. Do something for you, go ahead.

1:03:24But you know how it is, man. And I'm like, go ahead and do it. You know how it is, being at the top. I'm doing what I'm doing. You understand what I'm saying? I'm like, okay, you know, do what you got to do. I can take it. And so it's just like with the boxing video where I looked horrible, okay? I got two, not one, but two torn rotator clubs. I got surgery on both to prove it, okay? But it's fine if some knucklehead tell me you ain't got a torn rotator club. Just swing and loosen it up. And then he's videotaping me without me knowing, which is why I find it. Y 'all gonna ask you, how'd that get out?

1:03:53His son was videotaping me. The trainer's son? Yes, in my house. All right, but I'm like this. I'm like, it's fine. If y 'all want to think I fight like that, go ahead. It's okay. hey, but I'm in my 50s and this is what y 'all want to do. Who am I looking to fight? It's okay. I'm like this. So, in other words, let's find what he's not number one at to ignore what I'm doing. That's what happens when you're on top. That's right. People get tired of seeing you winning. Exactly. And so, mind you, we live in a different age. You understand you could go to Google or whatever and get all of that stuff.

1:04:26Like when they Google you, you can get that stuff, enable it where they can't find it. Why are you able to find it with me? You know why? Because I tell them leave it all up. Ain't nobody hiding. You understand what I'm saying? That happened. You understand? You also saw if you go back and you look heavy, go back, don't go back a decade. Go back three, four years ago. I'm skinny, fat, no muscle, no definition. I got a pot belly. I'm 208 pounds with 30 % body fat. Is that how I look now? You see what I'm saying? So I'm 57, and even in that, shoot, I haven't worked out the last five weeks. I got inflamed elbows, but I'll be back in the gym soon.

1:05:05But I'm like this. I'm in the best shape I've been in in 30 years. What y 'all doing? Oh, you saw the contract. You understand what I'm saying? I ain't going to confirm whether it's true or not, but you saw the contract. Did you see the other contract? You see that coming? You understand? Do you know what's coming down the pike? So this is what I'm doing. I'm going this way. What y 'all doing? What y 'all doing? Y 'all got time to do that? And I'm going like this. rather than have time to do that, why don't you ask a brother for some advice? I might give it to you. I'm happy to help because I want everybody to succeed.

1:05:33See, this is how I think. So you got people. I got my boxing coach. Could you please let us do a video, please? No. Not yet. Let us clean that up. No. Let them leave that up there right now. Basketball. I was good enough to get a scholarship that paid for my education. That's right. Did you ever think about that? I didn't get a scholarship to go pro. You understand? saying, on my best day with no knee injury, I want no damn Allen Iverson, Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, or anybody else. They still would have smoked me. But I was good enough to get a free education. What you doing? But when you contextualize it like that, you take all the power away.

1:06:11Now what? I'm laughing with you. Now what? That's what it is. You got to go cook something up back in the basement in somebody's room. Wherever you did that, you got to go do something else because people just get tired of seeing you winning. And here's the thing. Then you got these clowns and some of them are in my industry. I didn't write my own book. Oh, really? So I just I just I had somebody else tell my life story. I had somebody else give those details. Did you know that Simon and Schuster has editors? Do you know that they have fact checkers? Do you know that when you talk about, oh, he didn't get any doctorate from Winston-Salem?

1:06:47I didn't. From my alma mater that calls me for contributions. I didn't get a doctorate. I just made it. So when I gave the school, when I got the doctorates and I gave the keynote address at graduation, that was made up to? I just got, they just gave me word that I got inducted into the Black College Hall of Fame this coming September. Do you want to come to Atlanta and see that I made that up to? I mean, it's like. They start reaching, man. It's like, really? They start reaching. They start reaching. And it's like, is your life that bad? I guess so. So it's an effort to humiliate, to break, to do all of this other stuff.

1:07:27How does it feel to know you're not doing any of that with me? I continue to ascend, and I'm going to keep on ascending until God tells me otherwise. Well, as life works and as life happens, as we know, you know, oftentimes, it ain't guaranteed, but oftentimes one door is shut, another door open. Right. So, you know, you having that situation with the need, you know, with the encouragement of the university, Coach Clarence, Big House Gaines, you get your degree in mass communication. Yep. And they encourage you, hey, man, take it this route. You graduate in 91, and this kicks off the journalism career at the Winston-Salem, like you said, Journal, Greensboro News, Record, and in North Carolina to the New York Daily News and the Philadelphia Inquiry.

1:08:11But while you're in Carolina as an editorial assistant, I think you said you're making, what,$15 ,300? 15 ,300. It's either 15 ,300 or 15 ,100. I think it was 300. I think it was 300. That's what was in it, yeah. You know, your brother, Basil, I love this because, you know, your father, your biological father wasn't there, but you and Basil got closer as y 'all got older and now he's playing that role. And that's just a powerful thing, man. How sometimes, you know, we don't have what we think we need, but it's a ram in the bush. But I love it because, you know, you kind of lamenting him about, you know, I'm complaining about being at high point, but your brother, man, he starts to not only speak life into you, he starts to speak prophetically.

1:08:49You where you at at that stage and your brother starts saying stuff like, man, you're going to be on ESPN. That's exactly what he said. He said, you're going to be on TV. The newspaper is not your last stop. You're going to be one of the biggest stars in sports media and you're going to be a household name. How did your brother Basil have that kind of vision and have prophetic vision where he spoke some years away from when it was actually going to happen. My brother was one of those guys that he prided himself on just getting it. Like he can walk into a room and light up a room. And his whole point was, have you listened to you speak?

1:09:28Do you understand the conviction with which you speak? He said, if you're wrong, somebody's going have to prove it because you mean what you say. I like that. And that's how you bring it. And he always told me that. He said it's impossible for somebody to listen to you speak and not stop and listen. They can't dismiss you while listening to you. They might not agree but they can't dismiss it. They got to react to it. You provoke a response. That's what you do. And he said that's what television is that's what made Howard Cosell the superstar that he was who was my idol I idolized Howard Cosell growing up for two reasons number one was his relationship with Muhammad Ali and number two how distinctive his voice was when he spoke you knew it was him and my favorite example to highlight what I'm saying about Howard Cosell it wasn't him on a wild world of sports it It wasn't him screaming, down goes Frazier, when Frazier got knocked out by George Foreman after getting knocked down about seven times and stuff like that.

1:10:36It wasn't down goes Frazier. It wasn't, it is over, it is over, Ali has done it beating George Foreman. It wasn't any of that. It was him doing halftime highlights on Monday Night Football. You never saw his face during halftime. Halftime highlights brought to you by Merrill Lynch. Breathe apart. And true to form, what would I do? I'd pull it out and look up what's Merrill Lynch. Brokerage firm, stuff like that. I was like, that's what Merrill Lynch is. I never would have thought about that at that stage and point in my life had Howard Cosell not mentioned the sponsor for Halftime Highlights. And so he, to me, made Merrill Lynch omnipotent.

1:11:22You know, you knew who they were because of him and his voice. and my brother was the first one saying, that's you. Now, later on, it would be Sonny Hill in Philadelphia, world known, everybody knows Sonny Hill, the basketball, you know, the mind that he is and he's Mr. Philadelphia. But before him, my brother was the one who told me that. And so two months before my brother died was when he said that. He said that was the last conversation. That was the last conversation we had. It was in August. I'm talking face-to-face. Yeah, face-to-face. It was in August of 92. And he was like, yo, this is what you're going to do.

1:12:00Did you believe him? Watch. No, I didn't. I knew that I had a chance to be successful, but I didn't see all of that. And so everybody uses a motivation. And when my brother passed away, I remember everything that he said. And, you know, families have this habit of going to the gravesite, laying down some flowers, talking to their deceased loved one, et cetera, et cetera. For me, I made the decision I would not go back until I achieved what he said I was going to achieve. And it took me 11 years. But in October of 2003, ESPN came and hired me. And when they hired me, one of the first things I did was go to the grave site.

1:12:50And I was like, bro, I did it. I'm here. I want to start there and keep going from that point because, you know, you made that, that was more of a vow to yourself. Yeah. That vow. It motivated me. And it was a long road, 11 years is a long time. And a lot of ups and downs and, you know, different things that you had to go through. And you made it to ESPN. And when you first got there though, you know, the higher ups, the executives, you know, they getting feedback from everybody. But it's Stephen A. Smith, Stephen A. Smith, what y 'all think, what y 'all think? And you said that nobody wants you there.

1:13:27No, it wasn't when I got there. Before you got there? It was before I got there. Okay. Mark Shapiro, who's now the president of WME and, you know, and runs them with Ari Emanuel and some others. Kevin Frazier, my boy who works for Entertainment Tonight now, but at the time he was working for ESPN. It was him and a person by the name of Kerry Chandler who was running HR for ESPN. Kevin I knew. Her I had met a few weeks earlier. and they both went to Mark Shapiro because Kevin Frazier wanted off of NBA. It was called NBA Shootaround at the time. He didn't like the show, whatever, whatever. And Mark Shapiro's like, what can I do to keep you on?

1:14:21What do you need? Kevin said, Stephen A. His name is Stephen A. Smith. Go get him. And Mark Shapiro's like, who's this guy? And you at Fox? Yes. I was at Fox Sports. I was contributing to the Best Damn Sports Show. I wasn't permanent. I didn't want that. I remember that show. I was on it a couple times early on. And I was doing Last Word with Jim Rome sometimes and all that stuff like that. And then National Sports Desk as well. And then I got the call from ESPN to come up for an audition. And later on, Mark Shapiro told me he went into a room. He had like 25 direct reports. and he said one guy who ultimately became the executive VP there, his name is Norby Williamson, he's no longer there, he said one guy was like, I guess we can try it, let's see.

1:15:17He said the other 24 people all said, hell no. We don't want him. He doesn't fit here. He's not our cup of tea. We don't want that. And so he said that, call him in for an addition. This is him later on telling me what happened. He said to me he had never experienced such universal vitriol against one person. Like he said, I couldn't believe. He said, I said, there has to be something. None of them knew you. None of them had met you. None of them have talked to you. They just went by your on-air persona and said, we don't want him here. He said, 24 different people did it. And he said, I said, there has to be something to this because I've never seen that in my career.

1:16:01It's got to be something to it. So he called me in for an audition. So I rolled up there and I was ready. But when I knew, when I knew I had to be, they put me through like 18 different interviews that day. It was only for like 15, 20 minutes per interview, but I had 18 of them. And the very, very last interview was with this individual by the name of Mike McQuaid. Hold on, right there. Stay right there for a second. Mike was over me when I was at ESPN Boxing, so tell me that story. Yeah, so Mike, call him Darth Vader. He is Darth Vader. He is Darth Vader. Tell me about it. Because his personality, I mean, he is stoic.

1:16:40But he's really a great guy. He's a great guy. And if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, you have no problems with Mike. No problems with Mike. Do your job. You don't do your job. It's a problem. It's a problem. You'll see that other side. You're going to see that other side. And he'll do it with a straight face. With a straight face, won't miss words, won't pull any punches, and will check you in a heartbeat. But Mike and I, Mike interviewed me and he said, you know, you have Fox and that's nice, he said, but some would say that's you being the big fish in a relatively little pond because ESPN obviously feels that they're the big pond, they're the worldwide leader.

1:17:18And I looked around, make sure nobody was around, and I said, I mean no disrespect, but I'm not going to be a little fish in anybody's pond. Put me in front of the camera and you'll see what I can do. I said, that's fine. He said, okay, let's go. And then I walked in for the audition and I knew that I was going to knock it out the park because when I walked into the audition, Kevin Frazier was behind the desk, ready to interview me to do the audition. And so when I did the audition, I finished the audition at about 2.45. At about 3.30, I'm driving home to New York. And 3.45, my agent called me and said, congratulations.

1:18:07You just got a three-year deal with ESPN. And Mark Shapiro would later tell me it was the greatest audition he had ever seen in the history of his time at ESPN. He said I ain't never seen nobody light up a camera like that. Did you talk to McQuaid after? No. You didn't see him? No. But when I got there, he was my direct boss. And he wanted to be. Because he was like, this boy is special. Yeah. Man, I had a boxing show. We did 20-something shows a year, whatever the case may be. And appreciate all the producers and all the stuff throughout the years, but when Mike McQuaid showed up, we kept hearing about Mike McQuaid, Mike McQuaid came.

1:18:51It's a different lens. And I'm like, everybody thought they was gonna get fired. Yeah. Because he just pulled up, he wasn't talking. Straight shooter, but we didn't know him. Yes. We just only heard about him. But Joe Tessitore, my guy, he said, things are gonna change for the better. Man, everything went up. Like, everything went up. Everybody's level went up, the standard went up, the product went up. When you walk into a room with Mike McQuaid, you had better do your job. There's nothing to negotiate about. That's right. Everything else is open to it. That's right. I can talk to him. People who work and put in that work, because he ain't somebody that elevated.

1:19:34He leads by example. He's the executive VP now. He was there for 37 years before this happened. this man put it in and tireless worker so he don't want no excuses now you understand when you say if you can't do something tell him if you got a scheduling conflict but your commitments you honor and you know it's like you got to put in that work and that's him that's him and you know he knows the business backwards and forwards so you're not pulling no wool over his eye it ain't a thing he hasn't seen. So to try him would be a mistake. But if you work and you're a grinder and you're that person that you striving to be the great, he's perfect for you.

1:20:18He's totally good with you. He's perfect. But I'm saying he's perfect for you. He'll stimulate you to be better. Exactly. That's your question, man. Where you get your style from, man? Where you get your, you know, they got a saying like, it's in me, not on me. You know, people can try to dress you up. You can have a style. But you got your physical style, but then also the walk, man. They be talking about you walking in the basketball game. I don't know. Hold on. I'm just going to say, I'm just going to say, I'm just going to say, I'm just going to answer this. They say, man, he walking the place like he owned the place, like he one of the players.

1:20:47Where that come from? Jealousy. I'm going to tell you that right now. I'm going to tell you this thing. And I am qualified. But do you walk in like that? Yes, I do. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to say, and I say this all fun and love and all the stuff. Let me tell you something. I'm joking around, but I'm also serious. You see me on First Take on television. You see me on these other shows. Hold on. What's up? What's up with that tie? What's up with that shirt? What's up with that suit? I mean, yo, what's up? What we doing? Because it's like I'm letting cats know. Oh, it's a standard.

1:21:19Now, I don't know whether this is true or not. I'm entitled to my opinion. I believe I'm the best dressed cat in sports. I really, really do. I'm talking about consistency. I'm not talking about an outfit here. Like, there's sometimes I'm looking at Ryan Clark. I'm like, he got me today. You know what I'm saying? Or somebody, I'm looking at somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, I got it. But I'm talking about in terms of consistency, the long haul, the marathon. Oh, I don't believe there's anybody in sports that could touch me. So what happens is it makes me laugh because I'm listening to players and former players on their podcast.

1:21:53And they talking smack. He walking in. And I'm going like this. Don't distract from what's really going on. I'm not walking into the place like I'm one of the players. I'm walking into the place like I'm the best dressed cat up in here. Come on. That's what I'm doing. I love that. That's what I'm doing. Don't get it twisted. Don't get it twisted here. This is not about playing. That ain't the basketball court. I didn't ask ESPN to put the camera on me. I didn't ask ABC to put the camera on me. But did I think I was worthy based on my outfit? Yes, I did. So I'm sitting there like this. Do you see this suit on me?

1:22:30Do you see how I'm dressed? Do you see how it's falling? Do you see how it's falling? Do you see how it's collapsing on this brother? Yeah, I got, do you see the shoes? Do you see the man bag that I might rock occasionally? You don't know. Do you see the shades that I'm rocking? I'm like, I'm not walking in there like a player. I'm walking in, like, players look at me and take notes. Because some of y 'all need help. You see what I'm saying? Some of y 'all need help. You know, it's like you can walk with swag and all of that stuff because of the game. But that's not the game walking on. That's a runway.

1:23:06And I'm not going to walk into an arena like I'm pulling up in the loading dock area. And you got the camera on me and I'm dressed like it's just another day. No. No, y 'all. Oh, this is what it's about. But, you know, they think because they got the stylist that they're dressing. They don't. And they clearly need help. That ain't true. They clearly need help. They clearly need help. Some got it, but some, come on, brother. No, no, no, no. I will tell you this. Don't get me wrong. I had a cat that taught me, that pulled me there. You understand? So my man at Neiman, my man Charlie at Neiman Marcus in Garden State, you know, he was the guy that first pulled me.

1:23:45Clothes a little baggy, whatever, allow me to dress you. And then as he dressed me and showed me the way, I'm sitting there like, oh really? And then you know, you see the lady, you see everybody else looking at me. They're looking at me different. And I'm going like this, well man, this might be working. And then I got rid of the belly too. I'm like, oh Lord, now it's falling on me. I'm like, I didn't know. I didn't know. I'm actually feeling like I'm looking good now. That's right. You know, this is, this one's like, because it's several people that helped me. First of all, we have Billy King, Pat Croce and Larry Brown when I was with the Sixers when I was young, covering the Sixers.

1:24:20and Larry Brown was the first one that I saw rocking Sway's shoes with a suit. Pat Croce used to rock these Italian shoes. And blue, Aaron McKee, because Aaron McKee always rocked these blue suits. He's a dark-skinned brother with the blue suits looking smooth as hell. I'm like this, damn, they are looking good. And so I started tweaking, going from jeans and a shirt with a tie to trying to rock some decent shoes and a suit, whatever. Then as my finances improved, I could afford them. I could afford a few suits. So I started rocking that. And then I would go and it was, oh my God, Dwayne Wade, I got to give him credit for this.

1:25:01Boy, did he get me. Man, he used to, because he always thought he was so stylish. I'm like, look at that pink panther or something that's what he was wearing. I'm like, please. But sometimes he was sharp and I was like, and he does have gab. So I'm like, he's doing better than most. Okay, cool. That's all right. So, one time in the off season, this brother was hosting this fashion show. And he had some fashion folks from Europe and all of this other stuff. And I walked in late. And when I walked in late, I had on one of my suits, which obviously the baggy looking like MC Hammer pants and all this stuff.

1:25:39And he called me out in front of everybody. He did? So you could fit three legs up in there. And I was like this, damn. That got me good, right? I was like, ooh, that was low. That was low, right? And then, that same summer, ESPN Magazine wanted to do a shoot with an athlete and a pundit. And D-Wade chose me. Where he got to dress me. I had to wear whatever he said. And I didn't like that. You didn't like that? I didn't like it at all. I thought he was making fun of me, right? What do you have you in? He had me in something like them red pants and some tight red-ass pants. Oh, the tight was tight?

1:26:17I was mad as hell. I was like, come on, D. I was like, come on, you can do better than this. Oh, man, why he do you like that? And when he did that, I said, okay. I said, these cats don't understand. I just couldn't afford it. So then as the salary increased, and then all of a sudden, it's Tom Ford, it's Brioni, it's Zinnia, it's all of these cats. And I'm like, y 'all done started something. And so I met the guy, Charlie. And then after I met Charlie, and Charlie dressed me with a few outfits and stuff like that. And then I figured out a lot of stuff on my own. suddenly I started telling Charlie, I don't want this, I want that.

1:26:49I want this, I want that. I want the double-breasted hair, I want the single-breasted hair, I want to rock the vest here. And now it's like, it's next level. And I'm like this, y 'all can act like you don't know. But you know, when I roll up into a spot, how I'm dressed, we understand. Man, I'm going to tell you that. I had a stylist tell me one time, I said, man, this look good, that look good. He said, do it look good to you? I said, y 'all like it. He said, you can wear it, but you got to own it. That's right. Whatever you wear because if you ain't confident everybody know don't put it on everybody know and see Here's my point where all of these cats is talking smack When you walk into an arena The basketball court all the y 'all win the same damn thing you got the same uniform don't you?

1:27:32It's 12 15 cats on the roster. You got the same uniform. You're a football player. You there's 53 cats you got you're wearing the same uniform the individual is is who rolls into the arena or the stadium. That walk right there, that's you. Do you want it or not? Do you want it or not? And you see a lot of these cats, they talking, but they don't want it. They don't really, really want it. You want us to focus on your game. You should want us to focus on your wardrobe if you're going to do that walk. If not, come through the back door. Find a different way to get in the arena. But if I'm going to walk in there, I show up at the NBA playoffs, Once I show up in the NBA finals or whatever, oh, if I'm doing a show and I'm near to work, oh, I'm going to be dressed to the nines.

1:28:17Ain't no doubt. But you're not changing. You're going to keep walking in the marinas the way you've been walking. The way I've been walking. That's how I walk. I ain't faking it. That's how I walk. That's how I walk. You know what I'm saying? And I'm walking in there like they thinking I'm trying to be one of the players. No. I'm trying to show you I dress better than the players. Right. So, you know, I want to get back to your first stand at ESPN. That was what, from 03 to 09? 0309. And then, man, you get this two-year hiatus. Yep. I don't want to spend too much time on how it ended, but it was heartbreaking.

1:28:48Yeah. You know, it was heartbreaking. You got the dream job and it's many factors that went into that. But when you... Is it a firing or they just didn't renew? Well, they didn't renew, but I was fired. Okay. I mean, because when they don't renew you, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But you got this two-year hiatus where you're trying to figure it out. your sister not giving you a break again. Was it Linda? Yeah. When you, man, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm trying to figure it out. But you get that second run. And this time, I think you were slated to just be on radio. Yeah, I was confined to radio for the first year.

1:29:23Right, and then you had a conversation with Skip Bayless in the parking lot, and that was the origin and the beginning and the genesis of ESPN, the first take. That's right. And y 'all went for a long time. And you started noticing Skip was, you know, moving a little bit different. Everything was still good, but just we didn't have what we had before. And then eventually he departed. Well, it wasn't that he, nothing with the show. No, personally. On a personal level, he was being a bit different because he knew he was leaving. I didn't know. And because I didn't know, and I couldn't hold against him once I realized why he kept it for me because Jamie Horowitz, our former boss at ESPN who ultimately was in control at FS1 at the time, came to him with a mega deal.

1:30:14And, you know, he was still under contract with ESPN. So, you know, it was nothing in writing or anything like that. But he knew with the kind of offer that he was putting on the table compared to what ESPN was putting out there for him, he knew that that was it. And so I understood it. My problem was is that at the time I didn't know. So it was like, damn, you know, I mean, what's going on? You know, and ultimately he told me. So he left, went to Fox, and now you're at the Hound. This is your show. That's right. In Steps, Max Kellerman. Yes. I think y 'all had a three-year run, right? I went, no, five years.

1:30:51Five years, okay. I went, Max was doing Sports Nation and what have you, and obviously, you know, I needed a partner. They were looking for somebody to replace Skip for five days a week, and I knew that his personality was different than that of Skip Bayless, but obviously he's a brilliant brother and knows his sports. And also, he had really good relationships internally. And so having those relationships internally, knowing that I had aspirations to move First Take to ESPN, because at the time it was on ESPN 2, and I had aspirations to move the show to ESPN. For those that don't know, bigger audience, E1 is just different.

1:31:26Exactly, all of that stuff. Well, people, you know, by habit, you know, that's what they're going to do. And so because of that, I knew that that was something that he would help move along. And sure enough that, you know, after he came on board, you know, that was one of the commitments that they were willing to make. So I was happy about that. It was working until it wasn't. And you said pretty early on you started noticing just that, OK, you know, I got my my my approach. I'm straight to the point. I'm unapologetic about it. Max has a slightly different approach. But you felt like it wasn't going to work long before it ended.

1:31:56I felt like about two years in, I didn't think it was going to work long term. I didn't have regrets about bringing him on board. It's just that you know that as time was evolving and you saw the other shows and you saw the talent, people clamoring for a point of view mattered. You know, he knows what he's talking about. And when he opens his mouth, you got to listen because, you know, I mean, the brother is brilliant. But in the same breath, they're looking for conflict and confrontation. It's a debate show. That's right. It's a debate show. And it got to a point where that's not what folks were getting.

1:32:36And so you see people opening their mouths and talking about, you know, it was Stephen A wanted this or whatever. Let me look into the camera and tell people something that you may not know about me, but you better learn. I pay attention to research. it's not about what I want it's about what the audience wants we got focus groups and all of that stuff that they do in television that tells you what the audience wants what it's clamoring for what it thinks it needs what it thinks it needs to get rid of etc etc etc so what it was saying was we together didn't work now maybe it was a byproduct of what we had trained the audience to be accustomed to with me and Skip.

1:33:24And the fact that that wasn't there, okay, is something they lamented. My point is that's what they lamented. It's not personal. It's not personal. Never been personal. It's not personal. They didn't say me, him, or whatever. They said us. So what I was saying was, okay, they said that in year two and three and four, and now here we are in year five. What y 'all gonna do about it? Why would I want to stay on that if that's what the audience is telling us and we're not doing anything about it? So I was willing to come off first take and do other things. And obviously they didn't want that. And so they made the decision that they made.

1:34:07And when they made that decision, I knew that my career was on the line. Because if you kept me on board, I had to make it work. Or else. And I was like, Stephen A. against the world. They were like, what? I said, I'll take on all comers. Don't care who it is. I said, because one way or another, it's going to be interesting. Because I'm bringing a potpourri of talent. It's not just one person I'm depending on. I said, so, you know, before it was Michael Irvin. And then it was Shannon Sharp. Ryan Clark was there. Marcus Spears was there. Jeff Saturday was there. Dan Olavsky ultimately came on board.

1:34:50Cam Newton of the league ultimately came on board. Mina Kimes came on board. Kimberly Martin came on board. Monica McNutt and Andrea Carter and Shanae Ogumake and Brian Whitworth and Kendrick Perkins and Jay Williams and everybody came on board. So no matter what day you pick, it could be Chris Canty. It could be Bart Scott. It could be Harry Douglas. It's like the list goes on and on. It's like Stephen A is going against everybody. You got new smoke every day. So it's new smoke every day. And that's what I wanted to say. What did the research say about that? They loved it. Yeah. Well, we had record ratings for the last three years.

1:35:26But y 'all didn't lose the rating with Max, though. You said that. You stayed number one. We were number one. But the audience was telling us we were stale together. So I was saying a choice has to be made. So when you hear people talking, they talking like Stephen A. just opened his mouth and said, yo, man, I don't want to be here. Yo, man, this is what I want. You don't know me. I go by what the audience tells us. Meaning that audience is going to have different opinions. The audience is going to give opinions that we disagree with. But if Dre is calling about, and you know this because you've been on television with me before.

1:36:03If they sitting up there, man, that brother got knowledge. But he's sounding a little monotone. We need a little more energy. I'm going to say, yo, bro, you need a little more energy. You know what I'm saying? Bring it up. I mean, you know, they're going to sit up there and they're going to like, all right, Shaq. yeah you mumbling but you know what the hell you talk about you're a four-time champion no straight no straight that's my dog he knows that charles barkley you know you funny as hell but kenny gotta talk you know what he's saying right because they the comedic approach they're getting from barkley they're getting a combination of that and the basketball stuff from him and Shaq.

1:36:41And then Kenny's trying to stay out the way. They're looking at Kenny. You know, you working alongside Ernie. There's a different expectation. You don't have the same expectation if you Kendrick Perkins that you have if you're Brian Wintos. Brian Wintos has a different expectation than Shamshirondia. They're different than Ryan Clark. Ryan Clark's different than Cam Newton. Cam Newton's different than Shannon or Michael Irvin. There's expectations. And so you have to pay attention to that even if you don't agree with it. Even if you're not going to do it. You have to be mindful and cognizant of what it is.

1:37:14So I'm looking at people and saying, rather than being ignorant and trying to find some different headline that create clicks that have no truth to it, why don't you remind people of what the industry entails and what leads to decisions being made? I've been number one for 13 straight years. Knock on wood. It could all end tomorrow. I get that. But you can't take away from me that I've been number one for 13 years. Well, why have I? Because I wake up and just run my mouth? You don't think I pay attention to what the hell the audience wants, what they're saying? You know, I got a podcast now. It's the Stephen A.

1:37:49Smith show. It's a YouTube show. It's a podcast, a whole bit. Cats talking about a whole bunch of stuff. I'm talking politics. I got presidential candidates talking to me, representatives and Senate figures and governors and everybody else. I'm addressing real stuff going on. Why? Because I have a passion for it. And it deviates from what you normally see me. How could Stephen A do this? How the hell does he know this is going to pull up? Because I paid attention. And I said this was a voice that was missing. Here's what they're looking for. This is how you go about doing it. And that's the kind of stuff that I do.

1:38:27So I can tell you, you can call a boxman. I can tell you right now. I said, yo Dre, you doing a fight? You're going to be working Netflix? You're going to be doing Canelo Crawford. You're going to do that fight. And I'm in the back of my mind. I ain't got nothing to say publicly, but I got an idea who you should be working with, who would work and who wouldn't, why it would work, why it might not. I have this. Why? Because I've been in the business for 30 years. But that's one of the biggest things you said you learned from the first contract with ESPN and the second contract. Yes. First contract, you're looking at hand claps and oohs and ahs.

1:38:58Then you learn it. It's about these numbers, these hard numbers. That's what the executive, that's what the suits, That's what the people that's paying. That's what they look and I like you, but your numbers ain't right. Exactly That was a big one of the biggest take away. And you have an audience out there that's paying attention to broke ass dudes You understand what I'm saying? That ain't got going on that still can't get that can't get a job in the industry But you're gonna ignore the dude that just got the contracts not one Couple, okay, that's still at the top of my game. So I'm like, where you gonna listen?

1:39:28You know what I'm saying? If I came to you and I said to you, let me talk to you about basketball. But Michael Jordan rolled up and said, let me talk to you about basketball. Different story. He got my ear in a different way. You understand what I'm saying? Exactly. So I'm like, it's like you just sit there and you're looking. If I'm not comparing myself to Michael Jordan or anything like that, I'm certainly not doing that. I'm just simply saying, it's like pay attention. It's like I'm trying to show it to you because when you get my age, no matter how healthy I am, how good I'm feeling, whatever, but I am 57.

1:40:00You know, at some point in time, it's like, what do I want to be remembered for? I'd like to be remembered as a cat that helped a whole bunch of cats get in this business and thrive in this business and make it happen. I don't have to do as many interviews as I do. You've seen me all over the place throughout the years talking to people. There's plenty of cats. There's plenty of cats that have been in this business for years, and you don't see them being interviewed. You don't see me backing up for interviews. Why? they did it for me why why can't I do that I want you to succeed I want Matt Barnes to succeed I want a whole Gil and all of these guys I want them to get this I want to be that guy that I want y 'all to remember when it's time when it's my time it could be five years it could be ten years gonna be 15 years but it's gonna end and I want people to be able to look at me and say yo man he tried to help brothers he tried to help says he tried to make stuff happen for other people.

1:40:55That's what I want to do. Man, I've been seeing you do it on ESPN, just all the names that you named. I know that's intentional. And they speak about it. You don't always speak about it, but they speak about it. And I know the help that you've given me, whether it's a phone call, whether it's advice, whether it's contractual stuff. But just even something like this, man, that's why I mentioned this at the top of the show. I don't take that light because I'm a busy man. I'm a public figure. And I know I can't be everywhere. I can't do everything I want to do for people, but to be able to send you a text and for you to get back to me the way you did, I know it'd take time.

1:41:25That's life. We busy. But for you to say, bro, you got two hours and we can talk about whatever, that stuff means something to me. Cause I know, yeah, we want to talk and we got a good rapport, but you also know what this is going to do for us. So we, man, we appreciate that, man. I got a couple more quick ones and then we got, we got to get out of here. You know, you've came, you've overcame a lot of adversity in your life. What's one personal failure that that has reshaped how you approach your life. Something you fail at, but now that has changed my trajectory and how I move now. I would have to say me getting let go by ESPN.

1:41:57I thought I was. Before that. I really did. I really did. I really did. And it was for all the wrong reasons. It was for the applause. It was for the recognition. It was for things that I normally don't care about. but I was seeing the money and I was saying this is going to lead to me getting paid because I don't really care about popularity. I care about being recognized for it to benefit off it financially. You understand? I don't want the applause without the money. A matter of fact, I'll take the money without the applause. You see what I'm saying? So I'm not that guy, but I thought at the time because of how hard I worked and how recognizable I had become that that was going to materialize into a financial benefit for it that would have exceeded my wildest dreams.

1:42:50And it turned out to be the opposite. Because when they came to me with what they thought I was worth, I had a thought process that I was worth more. But I had no evidence to validate it. I didn't have focus group. I didn't have data and analytics. I didn't have any of that information that I had. when I came back in 2011, when I got put on First Take in 2012, when I negotiated my contract in 2015, that was an entirely different Stephen A than what they had seen six years earlier. Because it was like, this is what the focus group says, this is what the analytics say, this is what the data shows, this is what I'm worth.

1:43:31Let's start there. You don't have to argue about it. And it was beautiful because it touched me in a certain way. As a black man, when things don't go your way, you tend to adopt a victim's mentality. And I'm not saying you're wrong about it because a lot of times we are victims and we have been victimized. But it's one thing to be that and it's another thing to think it. You can be it and accept it as reality and march forward. I'm just going to adapt and overcome, which is what my mother preached. Or you can wallow in it and use it as an excuse to prevent you from ascending. The latter was me back in that time.

1:44:13I was thinking, man, this is BS. I deserve this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't look at myself. And when I learned my value by studying the business the way that I was supposed to, whatever resistance they gave to me none of those thoughts entered my head it was business our goal is to get the greatest amount of talent for the cheapest price imaginable you have to make a case for yourself to prevent us to do from doing otherwise that's your job if you don't do it we gonna get away with it and then not only did i learn that mentality drey Shortly thereafter, a few years later, I became a business owner.

1:45:02And what am I trying to do? What do I got a problem with? I got a problem with every time I turn around, somebody coming to me for a raise. And they might deserve it. Damn it, I don't want to give it. You know what I'm saying? Now I want to pay them. I want to compensate you. I want you to be all right. But every dollar I give you is a dollar coming out of my pocket. That's right. So it's like - It hit different now. I'm like this is$150 ,000. Let me see if I can get them for a$140 ,000. You know what I'm saying? That's how that works. You know what I'm saying? You start thinking like that. And then all of a sudden you looking at your bosses and it's like, ah, I got it.

1:45:43And my edifying myself about business and about my business made me a better man as well as a better professional, a better professional, because I learned to depersonalize and understand this is how the game plays, is played no matter who you're dealing with. You got to accept that. Do you like being famous? You like what comes with it? Having to overly think about your daughters and the safety? No, I don't like that. You can't just go anywhere and do anything? Oh, I hate that part. You know, there's several things. Number one, I'm not gonna lie and tell you being famous doesn't have its perks.

1:46:22Being successful monetarily, professionally, etc. does not have its perks because it does. You know, it's nice to go. It's nice to walk, walk into a mall and know that you could buy whatever you want. That's right. That's right. It's nice to see dealerships you driving by and know that if you want to pull right over, I could get that. You know, it's nice to roll up in a spot like a Tom Ford or Brioni or something with$5 ,000 suits and was like, no problem, I can get that. It is nice. It's a beautiful feeling. You know, you go out to dinner, you ain't got to worry about paying the check. It's a beautiful thing.

1:46:58The popularity stuff, obviously as a dad, as an uncle, as a brother, that can get on you, that can rake your nerves because people know those you love, which makes them targets at times. That's problematic. one of this little pet peeve, and my girls are going to kill me for saying this, but it's just the truth. You know, when you have a woman, it's not like you don't know other women. I'm just talking about friends here. I'm not talking about anything. I'm not talking about anything. You've got a wife. It's not like you don't know other women. Right. So you go out, and you could be out. It could be a friend of your wife's.

1:47:43and somebody click and click and you know you're cool because the wife or the honey knows that you know you were out you know you told him look babe I'm going out with this person I'm going then I'll be there I'll be back you know here so you so it's fine at home right but the people don't know that and they're taking these pictures of you and I'm I'm particular about this with men it never crossed your mind that you might not need to take that picture they don't even think about it they don't even care all your man I mean man code 101 go right out the window you just looking at them like damn you ain't worth a damn because you don't know it's no problem but you didn't know it was no problem you thought you was going to cause me a problem that's like the equivalent of trying to dime the brother out they don't really see I don't mind that with women You know, women you take, I don't have no problem.

1:48:41But when you the dude, and not only that, it could be a bar, it could be a lounge, it could be a club. You got brothers that will walk away from their girl to roll up on you taking selfies, taking pictures. It's like this. Have you no shame? Have you no shame. You forgot what it is to be a man. You don't do that. You don't do that. You don't do that. And then with the ladies out there, and then with the ladies out there, let me tell something to the ladies too. because I'm very particular because I've done this, Dre. When a woman is with her man, nothing disgusts me more than when she rolls up on me to put her arm around me, touch me, to take a picture with me or something like that, and then say nothing to her man.

1:49:24I'll stop him. Hold it. Yeah. You good with this, bro? Yeah, I like that. Just to show him respect. Like, you don't do that. Oh, please, he's fine. He's fine. No, he's not. He might say something because he might want something later. But the bottom line is, but the bottom line is he's not fine because you're being disrespectful. That's a man you with. You don't do that. So it's on both sides of the fence. It's little pet peeves that I have with the full fame and popular. But you're willing to live with that. I don't like stuff that. Say what? You're willing to live with that with the person coming.

1:49:54Because of the check. Yeah. I'm not apologizing for that. I'm a capitalist, bro. Yeah. I'm a capitalist. You're going to deal with all that other stuff. I will deal with all of that to make sure I get paid. I got you. I mean, as long as the checks come out. Now, if I'm broke, I don't want you to know me. Yeah. You understand? I don't want you to know me. But if I got a little paper, well, that's the reason, because of fame, popularity, and stuff like that, and that breeds good finances, it's a sacrifice on wool in the stomach. Tell me about this a couple more. You got a love for boxing. Yes. Love boxing.

1:50:26Who gonna win the fight, man? That's coming up, the biggest fight in boxing. Crawford. Crawford. Huh? Crawford. I'm not hesitating. Crawford. I'm not even hesitating. Crawford. You gonna stand on that? All the way to September 13. I love Canelo. Crawford will beat Canelo. Crawford will beat Canelo by decision. I can't see anybody knocking out Canelo Alvarez. But I do believe that if you can box and you can move, that you can beat Canelo. You can outpoint him. That's right. And when I think about Canelo, one of the things that I don't like about Canelo, despite his greatness, and a neck as wide as Broadway for crying out loud.

1:51:10Right. The thing that I don't like about Canelo is that it's like almost every shot has to be a power shot. It's a power shot, yes. And that's not beating Crawford. I will confess, I think Javante Davis' trainer, Cal, I think he said this. I think he said this. he said Crawford could find himself in trouble and I'm not sure it was him but I think it was him he said Crawford could find himself in trouble if he decides to engage with Canelo because Canelo is the naturally bigger strong fight and I don't care that Crawford's gotten bigger and I don't care that Canelo Crawford's gonna go in there just as big as Canelo.

1:51:53Canelo is accustomed to fighting at the weight, and Crawford is not. And Canelo is a genius in this regard. You don't see him show up for fights not ready. He's always ready. He's always prepared. He's always ready. He's always prepared. So I think he's the slower fighter, though. And I think that Crawford is brilliant as a boxer. And I think that between switching to conventional and southpaw, using his jab and movement, I think that Crawford is going to outpoint Canelo because he's faster. But I don't think he's going to knock him out. Yeah. We're going to leave it there, my brother. Man, I appreciate you.

1:52:32More than you know, man. Thank you. Proud of you, bro. Yes, sir.