In short
Podcast Episode Notes: The Beat with Ari Melber - BONUS B-Side Pod: Epstein a Mystery, Not a Conspiracy; Trump FASTER than Putin: Ari x Bazelon, Shteyngart in Pod Chat
Episode Overview In this special bonus episode, Ari Melber discusses significant political and legal issues surrounding the Jeffrey Epstein case and draws parallels between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin with guests Emily Bazelon and Gary Shteyngart. The conversation dives into the complexities of media coverage, the justice system, and the current state of American democracy.
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Key Themes and Discussions
- The Epstein Case
- Evolving Narrative: The Epstein case began as a crime story but evolved into a mass movement, highlighting systemic failures in the justice system.
- Sweetheart Deal: Bazelon reflects on the puzzling nature of Epstein's initial legal dealings, suggesting that it pointed to a lack of equitable justice.
- Conspiracy vs. Mystery: Discussion on the distinction between legal conspiracies and conspiracy theories, with emphasis on the genuine unsolved mysteries surrounding Epstein's death.
- Media Responsibility: The pressure on journalists to report responsibly without falling into sensationalism or unfounded conspiracy theories.
- Justice System Insights
- Public Trust: Both Melber and Bazelon express concerns over the perceived decline of trust in the justice system and its politicization, especially under Trump.
- Role of Investigative Journalism: Notable mention of Julie Kay Brown's investigative work on the Epstein case, which garnered attention to the victims' narratives and the systemic issues at play.
- Political Landscape
- Bipartisan Engagement: Acknowledgment that interest in the Epstein case moved from a Republican-centric narrative to bipartisan engagement in Congress.
- Political Opportunism: The discussion touches on how political motivations influenced the attention the case received from both sides of the aisle.
- Trump vs. Putin
- Autocratic Trends: Gary Shteyngart compares Trump's acceleration of anti-democratic measures in the U.S. to Putin's regime in Russia, emphasizing the alarming pace at which democracy is eroding.
- Civic Engagement: The importance of public action and protest in the face of authoritarianism, with references to historical instances of resistance in Russia.
- Current State of the Law
- Vulnerability of Institutions: Bazelon describes the current legal landscape as more vulnerable and potentially broken than in previous decades.
- Separation of Powers: Concerns about the Justice Department's politicization and the implications for the rule of law.
- Supreme Court Dynamics: Discussion on the ideological shifts within the Supreme Court, including critiques of originalism and the implications for civil rights.
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Key Takeaways
- Investigative Journalism's Role: The Epstein case underscores the crucial role of thorough investigative journalism in holding powerful figures accountable.
- Political Trends: There is a rising concern regarding the erosion of democratic norms and the potential shift toward authoritarianism in the U.S.
- Civic Responsibility: The episode emphasizes the importance of civic engagement and accountability in maintaining a healthy democracy.
- Legal System Integrity: The integrity of the legal system is questioned, emphasizing the need for a return to foundational principles of justice and fairness.
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Concluding Thoughts The conversation encapsulates a moment of critical reflection on American democracy and the justice system, urging listeners to remain engaged and vigilant in the face of potential authoritarian trends. Both the Epstein case and the comparison between Trump and Putin serve as cautionary tales about the fragility of democratic institutions and the necessity of active civic participation.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Evolution of the Epstein Case
1:01 to 1:35
Explore the transformation of the Epstein story from crime to mass movement.
“So we're going to start with Epstein and then get to that.”
Justice System Concerns
1:35 to 2:04
Discuss the perceived failures of the justice system in Epstein's case.
“And obviously you might view it differently.”
Conspiracies vs. Unsolved Mysteries
2:04 to 2:33
Examine the differences between legal conspiracies and societal conspiracy theories.
“And then I feel like it, you know, his death in jail was a big turning point because that also seemed mysterious.”
Journalistic Integrity in Reporting
2:33 to 3:49
Understand the balance journalists must maintain while reporting on sensitive topics.
“Then there's conspiracy theories in the world.”
Shifts in Political Engagement
3:49 to 5:30
Analyze how political engagement evolved in response to the Epstein story.
“So I think for a while it seemed like we were all supposed to just accept the idea that Epstein committed suicide in jail and not question it.”
The Impact of Political Heat on Reporting
5:30 to 8:12
Explore how political pressures affect journalistic reporting and truth-seeking.
“We're inside a mainstream media institution, but we have a little more time.”
The State of the Law Today
8:12 to 9:06
Discuss vulnerabilities in the legal system and the implications of politicization.
“But then we have Larry Summers, who was at one point a gold standard figure in the Democratic Party from President Clinton, Treasury Secretary.”
Concerns About Supreme Court Decisions
9:06 to 14:01
Analyze the Supreme Court's ideological shifts and their implications for law.
“And yet where we're trying to land is not who does this benefit, but like what's the truth?”
The Dual State and Its Implications
14:01 to 16:46
Discusses the concept of dual state and its historical applications in society.
“I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore.”
Fighting for Democracy
16:46 to 17:50
Emphasizes the importance of maintaining free and fair elections and democracy.
“Yes, and we are within a factual system that respects law, rule of law.”
Show all 15 chapters
Trump's Authoritarian Moves Compared to Putin
18:12 to 22:05
Explores Trump's actions that parallel authoritarian tactics observed in Russia.
“Or in Don Lemon's case, that he was at a scene where there was violations, which is standard journalism all the time.”
Resistance and Resilience in Society
22:05 to 24:18
Discusses the potential for civic resistance against authoritarianism and the resilience of societal structures.
“It doesn't feel like we're at all there yet from what I can observe.”
The Impact of Self-Censorship
24:18 to 27:51
Examines the phenomenon of self-censorship in the context of authoritarian governance.
“The space race, this, that, not that it wasn't here, but it was just incredible.”
The Importance of Joy in Adversity
28:06 to 28:48
Listeners will learn about the necessity of maintaining joy and dignity in challenging times.
“We have to fight back in every way we can while maintaining our own dignity, our own joy and happiness.”
Engagement with Audience Comments
28:48 to 28:58
Discussion revolves around the impact of audience comments on content creators.
“Well, we will check out some of the comments.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Emily Bazelon:Lattice is the first comprehensive HR platform where people and AI succeed together. It helps every employee grow faster, every manager lead more effectively, and every company unlock their people's full potential. Stop settling for HR tools that hold your company back. Build a future where technology doesn't replace people, but actually elevates them. No regrets. Ready to see the power of people plus AI? Visit Lattice.com slash no regrets. That's L-A-T-T-I-C-E dot com slash no regrets.
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0:45Gary Shteyngart:Hey, it's Ari Melber, the journalist and attorney. We're at MS Now, although we're off air, outside, extra. And I have Emily Bazelon, New York Times legal writer. Nice to see you.
0:54Emily Bazelon:Glad to be here.
0:55Gary Shteyngart:We want to talk about some serious stuff, including what we've learned in the Epstein case and how that's unfolding. I also want to ask you, because here we're talking about everything under the sun and how you feel about whether law works. Is it worse? Is it falling apart? So we're going to start with Epstein and then get to that. When I look at this story, I feel like it started out as very obviously a traditional crime story, what in other venues we call true crime. Then the extent of the political links and other things he had became evident. And then somewhere over the next couple of years, it became a mass movement story because a lot of people really were interested and care about it.
1:34Gary Shteyngart:How do you view it? And obviously you might view it differently. But as a legal writer, do you feel like it's evolved into something larger? Is it approaching like JFK levels?
1:44Emily Bazelon:I mean, it's obvious. Yes, it's absolutely evolved in something larger. I remember the sweetheart deal. I remember thinking that that was really strange. I didn't understand it. It was puzzling and those kinds of things bother me because it feels like the justice system is not behaving in any way in an even-handed manner. And then I feel like it, you know, his death in jail was a big turning point because that also seemed mysterious. And then there was like a kind of sense that there was a conspiracy theory, but then it was like one of those conspiracy theories like JFK's assassination that feel like, well, maybe there is actually a conspiracy here.
2:26Gary Shteyngart:Yeah. And it's funny, lawyers, when we say conspiracy, that's its own legal term, which involves more than one person conspiring to break the law. There are conspiracies in law. Then there's conspiracy theories in the world. and then there is the stigma or the negative that you're referring to. And a lot of mainstream politicians, certainly in journalism, people don't want to just be trafficking in what is unproven conspiracy theories. Then I would add, and tell me what you think, there are unsolved mysteries. That's different than a conspiracy theory if you say, oh, someone won this election and you've got a group of people who for whatever reasons won't accept that and they're only cherry-picking material against that.
3:06But it looks like it was resolved.
3:09Gary Shteyngart:An unsolved mystery, like this person dies in prison and then the key video goes missing. And then it takes, we checked, four years to get a watchdog report out of the DOJ.
3:21Emily Bazelon:And then there's this missing snippet.
3:23Gary Shteyngart:So how do you view that? Like, is it helpful if we're going to take this seriously? And again, I know there are people who want to sell anything for their reasons, money, clicks, whatever. I know New York Times tries not to do that. We try not to do that. But what do you think of that spectrum of like an unsolved mystery already is different?
3:40Emily Bazelon:Well, I think as journalists, you want to when you don't know the answer to questions, you want to remain open to the idea that maybe there is something more here. On the other hand, if you're constantly like chasing wild leads, that's a waste of everyone's time and you feel foolish. So I think for a while it seemed like we were all supposed to just accept the idea that Epstein committed suicide in jail and not question it. and that it was sort of fringy to think otherwise, but it never really got adequately answered. Can I ask you a hard question? Yes.
4:14Gary Shteyngart:When you have that pressure, you don't want to seem fringy because of your own seriousness, your editors, then how do you not let that become a bias where you're not pursuing certain things? I mean, I think it does. As a legal reporter, because I have my thoughts, but how do you do that?
4:30Emily Bazelon:I mean, I think you're right. I think that it does. If people are mocking the pursuit of something as a conspiracy theory, then you might feel like you're not supposed to touch it. It's a little. And, you know, this is where Julie Kay Brown gets a ton of credit. She's been on your show and deservedly so. Like she took this incredibly seriously from the point of view of the survivors in a way that I think other people just didn't dig into it the way she did. And she built out a set of evidence about their experiences that made the harm and the extent of the harm undeniable. And so then, at least to me, that felt like, okay, well, now I'm interested in this.
5:09Emily Bazelon:Now it justifies all this attention because you're talking about all these women who, as girls, some of them, had these incredibly terrible experiences. And then it stopped feeling salacious to me. It started feeling like, okay, this matters, and we don't understand. We haven't gotten to the bottom of it. We're still not at the bottom of it.
5:28Gary Shteyngart:No. And have you observed, again, helping peel back the layer of the system? Here we are. We're inside a mainstream media institution, but we have a little more time. Did you observe a shift where whoever they are, but the people who matter, what we call the elite, suddenly said, oh, I guess this does matter. I guess we do need to do it. Did you see a legitimization?
5:49Emily Bazelon:Yeah. And I think, look, the pressure for it started on the right. It seemed at first like that was absolutely where I was coming from. And the people who were a lot of them Trump supporters or just in the MAGA universe were kind of keeping the story alive. And then I think it became bipartisan. And that was a pretty interesting moment in Congress where it's not just Tom Massey, the Republican who's leading the charge, but you have Democrats starting to come in. And look, you know, there was something politically opportunistic about that because they realized, like, there were these unanswered questions.
6:20Emily Bazelon:But also it seemed like Trump was trying to make the story go away. So it's, you know, there was a political incentive there. But that was an important turning point moment, too, because then you really have serious congressional attention to this story, which previously had felt like it was kind of coming up from the bottom and the media was interested in it. But it didn't have necessarily like the political establishment fully engaged. And then they got really engaged. And now we have all these wild disclosures. Right.
6:49Gary Shteyngart:And it's funny you say that because I think about that in terms of reporting. we're in the politics so you can be like here's what it feels like to do normal yoga and you're as flexible as you are and then you can try to do hot yoga and feel like well I'm doing the same thing but there's all of this heat and then at a certain point you're like you don't know you'll see I'm gonna land this analogy uh-huh you don't know like is this harder because of the heat what percent of it is the heat you almost can't even really know all you can try to do is your practice see the yogi and when you're reporting this kind of story if you actually care about the facts and i get that some people are just going to do what they want with it but you kind of are swimming through something with so much political heat and the developments relate to political institutions like campaigns in the congress and what the government does even as you say well we're still going to follow these leads.
7:45Gary Shteyngart:So it doesn't really matter to people in the UK which political party did this for which benefit in the US. The reality of the strength of the evidence has mattered. If you talk to survivors and their advocates and lawyers, they see that as long overdue progress in a whole different country. And so you have that, or we've been covering Trump clearly has these problems here and the Trump DOJ is under rightful scrutiny because they're the ones with the power now. But we've also covered how Epstein very deliberately tried to cultivate, and in some reports allegedly, potentially illicitly cultivate, leverage over both parties, financial institutions, the customs officials, the files added more detail to how, and it's not the biggest issue, but it's an issue, how he was trying to basically curry favor with the federal customs enforcement down there, which matters for all sorts of reasons.
8:39Gary Shteyngart:But then we have Larry Summers, who was at one point a gold standard figure in the Democratic Party from President Clinton, Treasury Secretary. Kathy Rumler was a top White House lawyer. It's not an accident. It's because Epstein wanted to have all this insurance. And so that's a long winded way of saying that you can be in the sauna of the hot yoga. You don't like this analogy.
9:03Emily Bazelon:No, I kind of do.
9:04Gary Shteyngart:You could be in it and be like, wow, there's all of these other pressures and all these people have all these reasons. And yet where we're trying to land is not who does this benefit, but like what's the truth?
9:15Emily Bazelon:Yeah. So I guess I would say two things. I mean, one is that what you were talking about is this like sense of corruption from this whole elite network that feels like a cabal that was. And you can see everyone talking to each other. and it feels like there's this layer of social capital way above the rest of us, certainly above me, and people know each other, and they're benefiting, and Epstein is working it. To go back to your analogy, what that brings up for me is, like, sometimes it's easier for me to work on a story when I don't have obvious political, like, heat to worry about, right? You're just, like, pursuing the facts.
9:54Emily Bazelon:It doesn't matter.
9:55Gary Shteyngart:A warm temperature place to work out.
9:57Emily Bazelon:Yeah, like you're just doing your thing. The thing we always do, which is like asking questions, pursuing the facts wherever they're going to lead, right? If there's a lot of political heat on something, then we become more self-conscious because there's this other whole layer going on of consequences. And you're still supposed to, we have the same tools. We're supposed to do the same thing. I think, though, sometimes it's just the stakes go up and you feel like there's all this attention. And then sometimes it's really hard. You do think about like what the consequences are going to be. You can't help but think about that.
10:34Emily Bazelon:And, you know, you still have to like call it the way it's going to go. But it does change what it feels like to be doing the work when it gets hot.
10:44Gary Shteyngart:Great answer. Really interesting. And I like like we're just kind of really talking through it. Part two, in conclusion, the law in general.
10:52Emily Bazelon:Is it broken?
10:53Gary Shteyngart:Go ahead.
10:53Emily Bazelon:I mean, I think it is vulnerable and weak right now in a way that feels different to me.
11:01Gary Shteyngart:Different than your entire career doing this?
11:03Emily Bazelon:Yeah, different than my entire career. And I would say that there are two big institutions. I mean, the Justice Department, the politicization of the Justice Department, which, you know, the Trump administration has been very frank about. They see, I mean, Trump just hung a big banner of his picture on main justice in Washington. That kind of says it all. Like, he sees DOJ as an extension of the presidency. And that has not been the way it has worked since Watergate. We've had separation, independence, especially when it comes to criminal investigations.
11:36Gary Shteyngart:Well, and an honest prosecutor looks at crimes, not people.
11:40Emily Bazelon:Exactly. You start with the behavior.
11:42Gary Shteyngart:Trump admits that they just want to target people.
11:44Emily Bazelon:Right. And so that is, to me, like, breaking something. And it goes beyond norms. I've gotten kind of frustrated with norms. Like we depend on them so much and they're so important and they worked fine mostly for 50 years. But like actually it's the rule of law that's at stake, right? And so that vulnerability feels new to me. And then the other thing I think is different is the Supreme Court. And I don't think it makes sense to write off the Supreme Court as a bunch of hacks who just do Trump's bidding. And the tariff ruling earlier this week is like the best evidence for that. at the same time it has become deeply conservative and ideological in a way that is new in my lifetime sometimes i like to go back and think about the warren court which was the last time the court was super liberal maybe the only time the court was super liberal and you can argue that that court was like you know charging ahead in this activist way in a way that is similar to what's happening on the right that like you get control and then you pursue your agenda and that's how it works and liberals didn't complain about the war in court.
12:51Emily Bazelon:But I still think some of these opinions are so unpersuasive. I mean, to me, it goes back to Shelby County when the Supreme Court started dismantling the Voting Rights Act, which like we may be about to see more of from them. It just is not on its face a good opinion, that majority opinion. It's just probably it's just bad legal reasoning. And some of the reliance on the theory of originalism, this idea that you just go back to the original meaning of the Constitution or the law and the text is there and you just read it and you automatically apply it. The conservatives have never done that consistently.
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13:30Emily Bazelon:It's not a methodology that really leads to neutrality the way it's often claimed. And now they've switched this broader, even less accountable theory called history and tradition where you could just like cherry pick from any year. Anyway, all that is, that to me feels new and bad.
13:51Gary Shteyngart:Yeah, and that's why, depending on your reference, if you like Zoolander, it's when Mugatu's like, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills or Network, for our older viewers who remember, if you go back to old movies, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. I watch some of this stuff and it is funny because there is a certain type of breaking point And you can concede that all societies have had progress over time, that law has always moved in concert with political and public reality. So rich people do better. And 200 years ago, white male property owners did better. That's a valid, longstanding problem.
14:30Gary Shteyngart:That's its own problem. But then you have what in autocratic studies they call dual state, where separate from that real problem, you look up and you go, oh, yeah, there's just these rules and then there's the actual dictatorial effort over here. Or to quote Martin Luther King, he said, never forget that everything that happened in Nazi Germany was legal, by which he meant it was part of that government system. legal doesn't always mean valid and I'm not saying we're there don't misquote me but I'll give you the final word on there are times where you're trying to just show what's happening and other times you go wait maybe all of the way that we're looking at this is is changing around us and everyone that means lawyers I'm a lawyer and a journalist people who are in this field actually need to like step up and make a bigger switch you get the final word yeah I mean I think about this
15:26Emily Bazelon:dual state historical analogy a lot, right? I mean, you can also use it for Jim Crow. It applies. You have one law for white people and one law for black people, and the white people kind of pretend that everything's okay, and it's completely not. And afterward, it seems utterly obvious, it should, that that is utterly unjust. And I don't know where we are on that trajectory right now. I feel like it's important not to get ahead of myself about this because it's not my job to get ahead of the facts. Like I'm supposed to find out the facts. Thank you. And also, I don't think it helps because it just makes us all really cynical, right?
16:10Emily Bazelon:The country, you know, there is more authoritarian impulse swirling around right now, far more than in my lifetime. But those impulses, those forces have not consolidated power really thoroughly. I don't think. And so I feel like it's really important to remember that the power still lies with the people and that so far elections are still happening that have, you know, they are flawed, but they need to remain free and fair. We need to believe that they can remain free and fair and fight for that. That's one thing. I do feel like we can fight for democracy as journalists and lawyers.
16:46Gary Shteyngart:Yes, and we are within a factual system that respects law, rule of law. And yeah, I think that's a hopeful note. And to end on that hopeful note, the fact that bad things happen doesn't mean you don't try to do good things. The fact that you say, oh, we have a law against murder. The vast majority of people agree that we protect human life and we don't support killing people. The fact that there is murder and some murder goes unsolved doesn't lead people, most rational people, then say, I guess this whole banning murder thing doesn't work, right? The fact that there are bad people doing bad things and in some periods of time they get away with more of it isn't that, although, yeah, look, I liked having you here on, we don't, you know, it's just post-show, after hours, outside.
17:30Gary Shteyngart:Do you have any ideas for the name?
17:32Emily Bazelon:Podcast. Oh, name, huh. It totally feels like a podcast to me. Right, well that's the vibe.
17:38Gary Shteyngart:And you guys can drop names in the comments if you want for these conversations. You can subscribe to these legal breakdowns. You can find Emily Bazelon on our TV show and here on YouTube. Thanks for joining.
17:48Emily Bazelon:Thank you, Ari.
17:49Gary Shteyngart:Donald Trump is trying to make the U.S. more like Russia under Putin. I know people say a lot of Russia talk, and what are the facts behind that? That's what I'm actually going to get into right now. I'm Ari Melber, journalist, lawyer. If you watch these programs, you can always subscribe on YouTube. But we actually have the facts to back this. This is from the Financial Times, and I can put this up on our YouTube page as well. This is just you get the general snapshot. What it shows is that when you actually count the measures of autocratic and dictatorial moves, things we think of as problems over there and not here, at least a lot of Americans do, rounding up journalists and searching them or arresting them or jailing them for things they do and report.
18:31Gary Shteyngart:Or in Don Lemon's case, that he was at a scene where there was violations, which is standard journalism all the time. We cover protests that are past curfew or involve trespassing. Journalists in America have the First Amendment to protect them. So covering that doesn't make you a part of that crime, except if you're in Putin's Russia or now Donald Trump's America. And this chart shows that Trump is actually pushing us away from rule of law and democracy faster than Putin did over time in Russia. That's not something that's a criticism. That's what the actual measurable facts show. And so that's kind of my introduction to what we're doing here because I've talked to some of our viewers and folks about what we want to get into and learn and not just have the strictures of television.
19:13So I got television quality guests, including Gary Steingart, who's a celebrated novelist, a Putin critic, now a Trump critic.
19:21Gary Shteyngart:Come on out here, Gary.
19:23Ari Melber:How are we doing? Good. Oh, good to be the first person on this couch. Here we go. It's a really good touch. How do you feel? I feel great. Good. Thank you.
19:29Gary Shteyngart:So we're here. It's like TV, but more casual. I love it. Maybe a cross between late night and Wayne's World, for those to remember. But you actually know what you're talking about when it comes to Putin. Why do you say that Trump's moving faster to decline rule of law than even Putin in Russia?
19:46Ari Melber:Well, look, I grew up partly in the Soviet Union, then moved to the United States. I seem to be involved with every failing superpower out there. Is it me? I don't know. Let's see. When you look at this chart, which is really incredible, that's the Financial Times. And when you look about where we went, how far down we went in a year, if this trend continues, by the end of Trump's term, we will be behind Turkey and Russia.
20:13Gary Shteyngart:Worse, yeah.
20:14Ari Melber:We will be worse if this continues, if we don't continue to do the wonderful things people have done in Minneapolis and other cities, if we don't contact our congresspeople, if we don't march in the wonderful, oh, those wonderful parades. I covered one of them for the New York Times, the No Kings Parade in Chicago, which, of course, is a city that has dealt so wonderfully with what Trump is doing. You know, because dictators, authoritarian people are scared of being made fun of. And it's also important for us to know that we're not alone, that there are so many people like us. The problem with countries like Russia and other places is that you can't appear somewhere.
20:54Ari Melber:When Putin started making sure that demonstrations were becoming illegal, people decided, the rule of law said that a demonstration is more than one person. So one person would appear. And that's not really a demonstration, it's just one person. And then when Putin said you couldn't use, you couldn't talk about the special military operation, which is what the invasion of Ukraine was called, people would just show up, one single person holding a copy of War and Peace because it has the word war in it, which was banned by Putin. So it's fascinating to see how people resist. We still have the opportunity to resist.
21:33Ari Melber:In Russia, that opportunity is long been done.
21:35Gary Shteyngart:Right. And then you're past that point. And you're also speaking to something that you're a novelist, among other things, like that happens when there are limits. I mean, people today online know if there's a limit that doesn't really make sense if they say well you can't mention killing or self-harm there's a respectful thoughtful way to do it but you're not going to discuss what's going on in the world right without discussing the fact that the US government killed two people in Minnesota so people quickly come up with oh they're gonna say unaliving or they're gonna say it a different way and if you tell people yeah you can't gather you're giving them examples but what about this sort of civic tipping point where and I've been in countries in Latin America where it It seems like things got so bad that most folks weren't trying to protest anymore.
22:21Gary Shteyngart:They were trying to survive. It doesn't feel like we're at all there yet from what I can observe. Although there's a contrast between elites and CEOs who are like, okay, I'll send this one out. And citizens who aren't, we've covered that. But did you observe that or your family in Russia? Is there a tipping point there and are we at risk of that?
22:38Ari Melber:Well, look, the reason the Soviet Union fell apart was there wasn't enough ham on the shelves. It was a very simple thing. It was reality. You know, we left in 1979, and 50 ,000 of us were called the grain Jews. We were traded because the Soviet Union didn't have enough wheat to feed its people, so we were traded for bushels of wheat. I was traded for a baguette. You know, I don't know who got the better side of that one. But, you know, the thing is that these regimes are both evil and stupid. There's a lot of incompetence. The whole thing that just happened with El Paso's airport is another wonderful example of people cosplaying, and then there's real-life effects, and everything falls apart.
23:16But the question is, how far can we take this without – how far can we trust that our systems are resilient?
23:23Ari Melber:Well, according to this chart, they ain't that resilient.
23:26Gary Shteyngart:Well, is that – again, real talk – is that a little depressing? People like to share good news, plans. I'm someone who usually looks at, okay, what's possible? But is it depressing that ultimately it's reality, like you say, in economics, which, again, Trump seems to know. people who've underestimated him by putting this cartoon criticism. He hasn't just zeroed in on economics. He's zeroed in on the Federal Reserve. He's put two members under investigation, like an autocrat move. Completely autocrat. We don't see any validity there. Because he wants them to do what they otherwise wouldn't do, which is artificially juice the economy so he doesn't run into the problem, you're saying.
24:03Ari Melber:Well, look, he's following the Bannon plan. Every segment of society, including Bad Bunny's performance at the Super Bowl, is an object that he tries to politicize. There's nothing left that's unpoliticized. That is a very autocratic move. Growing up in the Soviet Union, everything was politicized. The space race, this, that, not that it wasn't here, but it was just incredible. And why?
24:23Gary Shteyngart:How did that benefit the ruler?
24:25Ari Melber:Because the ruler then has their hands in every little thing. You can't turn to a private reality that's just you. The ruler is always in the same... They're always right next to you. It's in a big brother kind of way. They're always looking over your shoulder. Which is whack.
24:40Gary Shteyngart:Whack. And interestingly, it's not really how most people want to live. No. When you think about, again, some people don't follow politics at all. In America lately, it's become a big part of everything. It's like a sport almost. Yeah, and then you've got betting markets. But when politics works well, it empowers people to have better lives and not have to think about politics.
25:01Ari Melber:Well, that's it. You know, so this is what my last book I wrote, Vera, which is about this 10-year-old girl set slightly in the future. the reason I wrote it was because and it does have a kind of dystopian element to it but I wrote it because I had my son's 12 now but he was 10 and he knows so much as a 10 year old he knew so much about politics because that's what he and his friends talk about and that's the same way that when I was a 7 year old in Leningrad I knew every member of the Politburo but this is what happens when you live in a world where it's just you and the leader I was just in a country I won't even name it but an authoritarian country where people kept saying our president, our government, and then looking this way and that way.
25:40Ari Melber:And that's exactly and then saying things that were obviously false about the president and the government.
25:44Gary Shteyngart:Yeah, and I'll share one final thought that's about something serious, and then I'll ask you one more question, and then we'll end. We had Rob Reiner on our show a lot. Rest in peace. And I got to know him a little bit. And after he was tragically killed, and we had covered that that night, we thought in the show about how to cover it, And we covered it by looking at his life and his legacy, as well as you do in news, the latest in the investigation. That's part of the news. And that's where we left it. Now, I'm not second guessing because there's a million ways to do it. Some people were so outraged by what the president said that we didn't cover that night that I'm not repeating that they felt the need to respond, which I understand because that's how that stuff works.
26:26Gary Shteyngart:But we really looked at it like, wow. and my mom even mentioned to me like, oh, so it's obviously despicable what he said, but also it's that Trump couldn't stand that for a day that the attention would be fully on someone else. And so he's using outrage to get in there. So at least people are still talking about him. And as you say, that's the opposite of a conservative government that says, get things done and get out of people's lives. It's, he's everywhere.
26:53Ari Melber:It's fascinating because it's a damn diffuser down if you don't kind of scenario. Well, that's the challenge of it. Well, that's the challenge of it. And I think, you know, growing up in Russia, there was a phrase, pisachstol. That means a writer couldn't write, couldn't publish things because he would be, whatever, lose his job, maybe even end up in prison or a gulag. So he wrote into his desk. That's what the phrase means. Meaning he would write down his thoughts, but he would keep them in the desk. Which is interesting, right? Because when you, 1984 begins with Winston writing his diary, right?
27:23Ari Melber:His diaries, everything that he can't say about this regime. The Orwellian critique of the big government. And I think we are, we were talking earlier about universities and law firms, etc. There is such a self-censorship now that there is some, that's the scariest aspect of it all. And yeah, I think it's wonderful that you honored Rob Reiner. I think that's probably the best thing you could do. Almost like you took a little oxygen away from that, from our friend, the orange fella. But, you know, at the same time, it's like, and I think Masha Gessen wrote about this in the Times. All you Russian writers stick together.
27:56Ari Melber:Well, we're all, you know, we grew up in the same. I mean, the whole idea is you have to keep the way he's fighting and Bannon and his minions, the way they're trying to create a Leninist system where everything goes back to the great leader. We have to fight back in every way we can while maintaining our own dignity, our own joy and happiness. Because remember, if they can remove the joy and happiness.
28:18Gary Shteyngart:Can't let them take your joy.
28:19Ari Melber:If they take the joy, if they take our Mr. Bunny away from us.
28:23Gary Shteyngart:They take the joy, then what are you left with? Only almond. You left it all the almond. Rough. Some people say, what do you get when we're off air? You get the jokes I wouldn't even tell on television.
28:32Ari Melber:Yeah.
28:33Gary Shteyngart:They're that bad. Final question on a lighter note, do you read the comments? Do you read the YouTube comments?
28:38Ari Melber:About, oh, I'm very non-commente. I'm scared of comments. You don't look.
28:41Gary Shteyngart:So if you're on a show and it's on you, you don't look at the comments.
28:44Ari Melber:I try not to look at the comments. They're all silly. It's all my parents saying, you're terrible. No, I'm kidding.
28:48Gary Shteyngart:Well, we will check out some of the comments. You can always subscribe. Thanks to Gary for sticking around. Thank you. It's Arian50. Don't forget to subscribe. Subscribe.
28:58Emily Bazelon:Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kids' legal guardian? Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids.
29:07Ari Melber:We only met a month ago. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects at Angie.com.
From the publisher
The legal and journalistic scrutiny of Jeffrey Epstein's horrific crimes was slow and late - Ari & NYT's Emily Bazelon discuss that problem, dynamics behind the scenes, and how the main story was never a "conspiracy theory." Then Russian-American novelist Gary Shteyngart tackles parallels between Putin and Trump. These NEW interviews are a Beat bonus from our new podcast series "The B-Side": Real talk and Ari's extended conversations off air.
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