Congress Presses DOJ on Epstein Files

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1:16Serious allergic reactions and severe eczema-like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-COSENTICS or cosentics.com slash Cindy. Welcome to The Beat. We begin tonight with Donald Trump's DOJ facing pressure in person for hiding even more Epstein documents. By in person, I mean what we're watching play out right now. Top House Democrats and lawmakers are meeting with embattled Attorney General Pam Bondi and Deputy A.G. Blanche over the hiding of files and alleged abusive redactions. The meeting is confidential. It's happening at this hour. If we get any news, we'll bring it to you. Congressman Garcia says the meeting itself will not substitute for a further grilling under oath.

2:02There's been some reporting that somehow they're not interested in doing the full subpoena conversation and the deposition under oath. This is not a substitute for that. And so that is the very first thing that I'm going to remind the attorney general of. That's new from Garcia as they talk about that meeting. Bondi has faced MAGA blowback already, and even calls for impeachment. She's had several Epstein debacles. There was the binder incident, Bindergate, where basically she oversaw a lying campaign that claimed to release Epstein files and documents in those binders, but it was a lie and there was backlash over that.

2:45Bondi famously claimed she had a client list on her desk at the beginning of last year. Trump supporters did not take well to all that. There was a revolt over several of those misleading spectacles. There were her other false claims about basically the fact that other men linked to Epstein and the material they had even before the files came out. They were all cleared of wrongdoing, she said. No further case is possible. Well, that, of course, has been shredded by other countries pursuing cases against people linked to Epstein. We cannot tell you legally that all those cases are going to result one way or the other, but her initial claim that there was literally nothing else to investigate, nothing to see here, well, those kind of self-destructed.

3:27The news now is that Congress is officially subpoenaing Bondi over Epstein, which shows bipartisan pressure. Remember, Congress is controlled by Republicans. You need some of them to get any subpoena out there. She's, of course, tangled with Congress before. Now she has a high stakes date, April 14th, for this testimony. And as her actions are drawing fire, the administration also tried to put a different face forward. So while she is still AG, she hasn't been impeached or released yet, her deputy, Todd Blanch, a Trump loyalist, led the first files release, signed those letters to Congress when they started doing the piecemeal release.

4:02Also, he did the press on the Epstein files rollout while she stepped back. Now, deputy attorney generals sometimes have various portfolio duties, but everyone noticed that because this was a huge deal and they'd sidelined her. Lawmakers now concern that he's pushing a cover up, new heat on hiding the full unredacted Epstein documents about a DEA money laundering probe from 2015. And at the risk of giving everyone a little deja vu, this is that document. You've seen this kind of redactions before. I will say in fairness to DOJ that they did release a lot of unredacted and real material in that 3 million file release.

4:44But this right here is part of 69 pages from this DAA probe that was heavily redacted. The investigation was on illicit funding or distribution of so-called club drugs and an alleged prostitution ring. Bloomberg has reported on this, and they were reviewing both Epstein himself, but also over 10 other people back in 2015. So folks are asking in Congress, with all this time passed and Epstein being dead, why is this so super redacted? Remember, these kind of redactions, when you deal with CIA or certain issues, they are unfortunately common. But Congress passed a law, a veto-proof law we all watched, that said that kind of redaction itself is not allowed.

5:25The stuff that's normally redacted, they said, should be unredacted. If there are names, which there's no name this long of names of victims, those kind of things under the law can still be redacted, but not pages and pages. Meanwhile, Blanche is the rare official who actually felt the need to clarify. In case you were confused, he says he's not defending Epstein. He's just explaining the process. I'm not trying to defend Epstein. I'm not. And I do defend the work that this department is doing today, right now, which is going after every single perpetrator anywhere. And if there's a narrative that exists that we're ignoring Epstein victims, that is false.

6:07pushing back, defending, saying that's a narrative. But of course, it's the Epstein victims who've been saying that. And you can't reduce their testimony, much of it nonpartisan. They're not here, most of them, with some apparent axe to grind as a quote narrative. And then there are the ways that this administration, having released the files, has stoked more questions. We have reported on the questions around Epstein's in-custody death. Our special report and timeline used the newly released files, which, as I mentioned, it's good. We finally got them from the government, if you're interested in the facts and transparency.

6:38But we also learned through those files about the DOJ's past misstatements on this very issue. The questions, meanwhile, are only rising in Washington. If you happen to catch this report, you may say, OK, so people are asking questions. The media is asking questions. This is an MSNOW original investigative report. But it turns out now we're seeing the overlapping issue and questions also posed in D.C. Blanche was asked about it. And are you guys completely confident that it was indeed suicide? Yes, we're confident. There's also new questions about an orange-colored figure going up the stairs towards Epstein's cell around 10.39 p.m.

7:15the night he died. Do you know who that person was? I don't think we know. Wouldn't that fall within the window when Epstein could have died? I think that falls within the window of when he could have died. Why has none of the guards been held legally accountable? Well, they were. Two of them were prosecuted, and ultimately there was a non-prosecution agreement that may not be the accountability that you want or that others want, but there was accountability. Now there are some answers. He's on a podcast there with an individual who is affiliated with the Trump administration. Questions are useful.

7:48You can take him and what he's saying and the answer. One of the questions there that she posed cites the kind of reporting that we and CBS and some other journalists have done, which found that on video, the FBI saw what appeared to be an inmate or a person in orange that night. And yet the DOJ described it differently. And Blanche says, yep, that could have been within the window. So he's sort of acknowledging that open question. He also said, well, there was accountability for those guards. that's not the case as we showed in the death timeline you see prison guards indicted there in the middle next to the epstein photo but to the right as we showed you the charges were dropped now we don't know what would have happened if they'd continued the case it was unusual to indict and drop the charges here we have the deputy attorney general seemingly wanting to defend everything the government the doj has done even though that happened in the past but that's certainly not accountability.

8:43You drop the charges, you're not finishing that case. The government has had some problems with accountability and transparency on this for years. And I want to be clear, what you heard there from Todd Blanche was his claims that basically they never did anything wrong, not while he's in charge and not previously. And that's just false because we showed you in our reporting and many different accounts about the problems here. And you've probably heard the victims talk about it. And that also includes Merrick Garland's DOJ. The misleading report about that same video was published by the inspector general during the Garland Justice Department.

9:20And so you're reminded that they don't even bother to blame the past. They're so afraid, apparently, of this story. They say everything was fine. And that's not on the level. Today, it's not Merrick Garland. It's not the history. Today, it is the Trump administration in charge, Bondi and Blanche. And they're getting apparently a failing grade from many members of Congress who worked on a bipartisan basis to pass this law. And they are demanding full compliance with the law. And they're demanding more than the occasional friendly podcast interview. Bondi will be going under oath. With all of this news in tonight and the meeting I mentioned, I want to bring in Emily Bazelon, New York Times Magazine, legal writer there, who's looked at this story without fear or favor, as we say.

10:01Welcome back. Thanks so much, Ari. I'll give you a two-part question up top. This is the easy part. You know, is this good enough or does Congress have a point that there might be a more accurate way to redact, to protect whoever, including victims, but not do this? And second, what do you think of my observation about Blanche, that there's such tension and secrecy here. I'm going to grant him the competence that he knows. The Inspector General report came out under the Biden-Garland Justice Department, written by Michael Horowitz, etc. He's a lawyer. I'm going to grant him. He knows that. And yet, he doesn't even say, hey, they might have made some mistakes.

10:42He keeps saying everything's fine and it's not fine. Yeah. Well, to start with your easy question, no, that is not what a redaction would look like, given what we know about what Congress decreed in this act that it passed, that just looks like a kind of blanket. You can't know anything about this investigation, and that seems hard to justify. I think you're completely right about Blanche. He is trying to say everything's fine, nothing to see here, but also we prosecute everyone, and we've been yelling and screaming and hoping people will come and give us information. That was his response to the British potential prosecution of Prince Andrew, as if we don't have the same information they have, and as if there aren't all kinds of questions swirling around.

11:34And this still kind of essential mystery, given how giant this conspiracy was and how many people were victimized by it, How can it possibly be that there's nobody else to prosecute? Right. I still don't feel like I understand the answer to that question. And Blanche has to both say or try to say, we're doing everything. You know, we're tough. And also, but there's nothing to indict here. Yeah. And the Bondi memo, which said we're not going any further because there's nothing else to see. There's no client list. There's no evidence of blackmail, she said, and there's no one else to research. But other countries have already found there are people worth researching.

12:18There have been arrests in the UK. Exactly. And that is just hard to square. And I think, you know, the reason some of the senators are focusing on this particular DEA document is that it would seem to have the kinds of facts in it that you could then wonder, well, why weren't the people named in this as potential co-conspirators? Why weren't they indicted? And there could be perfectly good reasons for that. And normally, outside of this particular law Congress passed, DOJ would not release information about people who they decided not to prosecute, right? Because we let people go on with their lives.

12:56And we trust the government usually to decide whether it's worth indicting someone or not. But this case seems so different given its scope, given the, you know, sweetheart deal that Epstein received himself. And because of all that, it's just a different set of circumstances. And I think it's just very hard for Todd Blanch and Pam Bondi to put to rest all the doubts that they, in fact, stirred up when Bondi started talking about this client list. Well, Bondi clearly tried to play it both ways. And this was something way bigger than her ability to control. she is not exactly forthcoming or professional when she does give testimony uh it's enough to make you miss the days of bill barr for those who want a legal nerdy nostalgia reference um and yet the doj is rattled by this i know there's a lot of folks watching the news and watching our world these days and saying well does any of this even work uh you know why do you guys even get involved with it, but it is actually also the other side of it's true.

14:03There are issues, including this one, where on a bipartisan basis, a bunch of new material has been forced out against the usual precedent to the detriment of these powerful individuals, most of them powerful men. Maxwell happens to be a woman. She's incarcerated. But that's actually made progress of a kind against the powerful. And then when the Republicans, some of them, have decided to push the DOJ on this, suddenly you have subpoena power. And so you have the DOJ here today concerned that they're making her testify. And they say the subpoena is completely unnecessary. The AG has always made herself available to speak with Congress.

14:38We look forward to continuing to provide policymakers with the facts. I'm curious what you think of that protestation, Emily, because this is what it looks like when Congress decides, no, we're not going to let you waste three more weeks of negotiation. We're not going to worry about whether you feel pressed that we're treating you like some common witness. We're going to subpoena you. We're going to get you down here. Let's get it going. What do you think of that and the DOJ's response since you cover DOJ? You know, I think that for Bondi, it is extremely awkward that it is House Republicans who are leading the charge for this subpoena and this testimony.

15:13And so, you know, normally her posture in Congress is to be super combative with Democrats. Right. I think that's why you were longing for Bill Barr, who was attorney general in Trump's first administration. Bondi just like goes after who's ever asking her tough questions. But that is harder to do when the criticism and the tough questions are from Republicans and there is real kind of bipartisan agreement with Congress. And so I think what you're seeing here is this idea from DOJ, well, we'll come any time, we're cooperating, because being in a conflict with House Republicans is not something that really fits with Pam Bondi's brand.

15:52Yeah, that's a fair point. The legal political issues there. I want to ask you about some of the other aspects of this. We have our shortest break, so 90 seconds, and then I'm going to continue with Emily. Stay with us.

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17:21Only Novo Nordisk makes FDA-approved Ozempic. There's only one Ozempic. I told you it was catchy. I'm Cindy Lauper with fellow Cosentix advocate, Chef Michelle Bernstein. We'll share our experiences with plaque psoriasis, with psoriatic arthritis, and Dr. Panico will talk about the possible connection. Cosentix Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis 300 milligram dose and adults with active psoriatic arthritis 150 milligram dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentix. Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur, like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections.

18:04Some are fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough. had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema-like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-COSENTICS or cosentics.com slash Cindy.

18:30We're back with Emily Bazelon. Here's more of Todd Blanche, who's kind of taken over a lot of Epstein for Pam Bondi at the DOJ because he has taken some new questions. Take a look. How is it that the UK can do more on Prince Andrew than we can for any single one of these wealthy, elite billionaires and people in government even and not have one prosecution, not hold one person accountable? Well, because you need provable evidence. And so what I can do as a deputy Attorney General is invite anybody with evidence to come to the FBI and tell us, which is what we've been screaming from the rooftops for a year.

19:16Emily, that is a MAGA-type podcast. I think fair question. People might disagree with the host for this or that, but she's got a powerful person in and that's a fair question. It's one that I've heard a lot of people ask. I'm curious your view of the question and then whether you found the answer valid and sufficient. Yeah, I mean, I think Katie Miller, she's asking certainly a question that is on my mind. We were just talking about this. And, you know, again, the tension here where you have folks in the MAGA universe, like you're saying, being the ones who are trying to hold Blanche and Bondi into account, like that's a different kind of pressure than when it comes from people they view as political opponents.

19:57And it shows how much the Epstein story is still really resonating in MAGA world. And then I think the puzzling part of Blanche's answer is like, well, is there really no evidence in all of these files that you've released that could lead to somebody's prosecution, especially because that does seem to be happening in other countries, namely in the UK? That's like this tension here and good for Katie Miller for bringing that to the fore and getting Blanche to actually have to grapple with it. Yeah. The files have all kinds of details, and so it takes time to go through them. I wanted to kind of put on the news tonight one of the things we touched on briefly, but the Times has picked up more on this, how Epstein spent money to try to clean up, distort, or hide his sordid past.

20:46This went on for years, and we have details on this in sort of the Google gaming of it. The Times writes that quest by Epstein to overhaul his online rep, team members created networks of fake Wikipedia editing accounts, sham websites, fictitious personas, trying to fool search algorithms. And Emily, I think this is so important because it speaks to how we know what we know. And this is not a defense of anyone who didn't actually do their vetting and homework, people in serious positions who should know better. And yet, not everyone running around the world is running a forensic deep accounting on every meeting they go to.

21:24And so it is relevant, is it not, that he had so much money that he was spending years trying to game the system so that he could basically have the first page of search results have anything but the actual biggest problem he had, which was he'd become a convicted sex offender. And this is sort of, we don't usually see behind the scenes on this. And I've read some of these emails when I've gone through the files and he's going back and forth with the search consultant and how they push the material. And then they're trying to get these sham web articles that normally you wouldn't care because who's ever going to see them, but they are just there for that purpose.

21:58Not that anyone would read the other article, but just to push down the results and you deal in information. I'm curious what you thought of this piece of it. Well, it was kind of amazing to see the very deluxe version of trying to clean up your online persona. You know, I've written about victims of sexual exploitation online who've tried hard to do this. And it's you have to put a lot of energy into it because, yeah, you can have fake articles up there, but somebody has to post them and then other people have to link to them. And so if you really are trying to do this when you have a serious criminal conviction that you're trying to bury, you have to like call in a lot of resources.

22:37And you can see in this back and forth that it's possible to succeed. And I think Epstein had that success, but you really have to put a lot of money behind it. It is not an easy, quick thing to accomplish. Right. And then it shows how, again, because he was playing this con man shell game. Yeah. He also had the founder of Google in his circle. Right. That person should know better. But random people and young people and he preyed on all sorts of people may not have. And it speaks to a dark part of this, of the world we live in. And folks think, oh, well, Google, I mean, I'm getting the results.

23:11And it's like, well, some of these billionaires and folks are are gaming that as well. Emily, I wanted to get that extra detail in there. Thanks for joining us. Coming up, we will look at this story. Republican pollsters warning about the midterms. The fact is MAGA has shrunk. Some of it had to deal with Epstein. Some of the war, they don't like the war. The midterms, the Epstein, the Iran backlash. We have more next.

23:44Next.

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