Dems Strike Back In California

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1:09They've been withholding that. We begin, though, with the big story of the Democrats going at what they call this Trump power grab to effectively rewrite or change the rules midstream to try to steal election seats in the coming midterms. Experts warning that Trump, who's tried to, of course, overthrow the election that he lost in 2020, is starting earlier with more sophisticated coordination to rig the coming midterms, at least in the states where he can exert powers. Now, today, California Democrats are showing that they will not take this sitting down or just talk about breaking precedent or criticism or op-eds.

1:45They're actually fighting fire with fire, countering the news out of Texas and what Republicans did yesterday to fight back. And Democrats say that the way the Republicans have sort of watered down or distorted those districts in Texas are fundamentally race-baiting, unfair ways to reshape who goes to Congress. Here's the moment that the first of three key election bills just passed with these Democrats fighting fire with fire in California.

2:23The key votes will set up a mechanism to redraw California maps. Earlier before this vote, the governor said it's on Texas. This is radical rigging of a midterm election. Radical rigging of an election. Destroying, vandalizing this democracy, the rule of law. So I'm sorry. I know some people's sensibilities. I respect and appreciate that. But right now, with all due respect, we're walking down a damn different path. We're fighting fire with fire. I'm going to punch these sons of bitches in the mouth. there you hear it is a tough and aggressive stance from someone who is seen as a possible democrat to run uh in the next presidential election meanwhile the democrats most popular living former president barack obama is backing this move that's striking because obama is known for moderation for worrying about the kind of ways that outdoing trump can set off a constitutional hardball he says this is not his preference but we cannot utilaterally allow one of the two major parties to rig the game.

3:33Now, Republicans in the Texas Senate will be passing their new map. That's expected tonight. And Trump is continuing on. Today, he talked about trying to build some sort of artificial hundred seat majority. And one Republican in Texas basically saying the quiet part out loud. The underlying goal of this plan is straightforward. Improve Republican political performance. That is a confession, an admission, indeed, in places where the courts and judges oversee these kind of changes, which can happen. You can sue to have judges look it over. That's exactly the kind of evidence that cuts against Republicans.

4:19Although others will say that both parties, with the California punching back, are admitting that this is now the new normal, or at least the normal in some of these states, where there's no pretense of drawing fair maps, just political hardball to distort the results. Republicans say they know it, they're going to barrel on. Some Democrats saying if this is what it takes, they will fight back with equal measure. I want to bring in our guests tonight who know a lot about these issues. Christina Greer is a political science professor from Fordham and California Assemblymember Buffy Wicks, a Democrat who co-authored the state's redistricting legislation.

4:56Welcome to you both. Professor Greer, what do you think of the way Democrats are fighting back and what is a shift from Barack Obama, who years back exactly opposed these kind of things, saying, where does it end? Right. Well, it seems as though Gavin Newsom has been able to do something that many Democrats haven't been able to do, which is get Barack Obama off of the sidelines and into the fight. I think there's a real tension in the Democratic Party right now because some people don't want Democrats to stoop down to the Republican levels. Remember, Michelle Obama famously said, you know, when they go low, we go high.

5:32But there are a vast majority of Democrats who are very frustrated. They feel like we're bringing staplers to a gunfight and we're not fighting fire with fire, as Gavin Newsom has said. And so I think some people welcome this type of aggression that many Democrats have not necessarily had these past few months, especially. And seeing how Donald Trump and the Republican Party and his sycophants are moving so quickly to strip so many states from their rights and freedoms, I think many Democrats can welcome this aggression. Buffy, tell us what you and your party are doing in California. And if you would share with us, because people are watching this, stay closely in your own words, why this is different than Democrats' approach there in the past.

6:17Sure. You know, I think we view this as really as a blatant power grab designed to rig the election. And I think, as Governor Newsom said it best, we have to fight fire with fire. And that's exactly what we're going to do here in California. You know, we're not going to let Donald Trump dismantle our democracy. And we really view that that is what is at stake here in terms of what he's trying to do and what he's doing in Texas. I will also note, though, that our plan is by far the most transparent in the nation. We voted today to go to the ballot to let voters see the maps. The voters will ultimately decide if they want these maps.

6:49And we also will revert back to the independent commission in 2030. But we're not going to sit by on the sidelines while Trump tries to rig the system. So I think we've put forth the most eloquent solution given the situation that we're in. And let me be clear, none of us wanted to be in this situation. I support the independent commission. So do so many of my colleagues. But what you saw on the floor of the assembly today and an overwhelming support to send these maps to the voters and let the voters decide if this is what they want to do. And so in that sense, I think it's very transparent. It's very democratic, unlike what happened in Texas.

7:23Yeah, here's one Texas lawmaker. Let's take a listen. Well, Governor Hochul in New York, I spoke with her just yesterday, and she is ready to take action if necessary. Again, this is all triggered. Not one of these Democratic governors was looking to do any mid-decade redistricting. And so then we're looking for it. We have to. New York is willing. Illinois is willing. We're talking to Maryland. We're talking to New Jersey. We're going to continue to talk to these states to try to meet them where they are, which is in the dirt. So, Buffy, I guess one way to build on both what she's saying there and your answer is, what would success look like?

8:07Does it look like thwarting or evening up any Republican effort to do this, to change the game midstream so that the next midterms are break even? But ultimately, if you didn't have this kind of rigging coming out of the Trump White House in the future, you just mentioned, you would be open to going back to what had been, I think, what a lot of Democrats wanted, which was a nonpartisan anti-gerrymandering position. Yeah, I mean, we've had the gold standard here in California. We voted on this constitutional amendment in 2010 to create an independent commission, which we all support. But that was 2010.

8:41This is a different era in terms of what we are in. And we really view this as an emergency. We view Donald Trump as a threat to our democracy. And we want to give the voters the power to vote in these new congressional maps, if that is what they want. again, to revert back to the to the to the independent redistricting commission in 2030. But listen, we view it really as an emergency. And if you look at what Donald Trump has done to our state, how he has targeted California as a blue state, what he's doing with these ICE agents, these thugs coming into our communities, how he wants to withhold, you know, wildfire resources for communities whose homes have burned to the ground, threatening to take away health care, SNAP, food stamps, all of the things, you know, and for other blue states, this is what's coming your way and this is what he's intended to do, and we view what he is doing in Texas as his chance to grasp onto more power in a very unfair way, he does not play by the rules.

9:32And that is why I think it's important for us to act. And you saw overwhelming support amongst Democrats in the legislature today to do exactly just that, to empower our voters to act in November with a special election to vote on new maps. So, Professor Greer, are we entering what sounds like the beginning of a new phase of democratic response. There's grassroots resistance. The No Kings protests were huge. In some measurable ways, the ongoing protests of the second Trump term are actually broader, wider than the first term, even as the elites, we've seen it in colleges, companies, media parent companies giving in, while the grassroots is stronger.

10:12And now we're seeing elected Democrats basically say they can speak in the same language, the only language perhaps, that Trump understands. Right. I mean, I think it's been very clear that the Democratic voters want a lot more aggression than many Democrat elites have shown. And I think it's, you know, as was said, these are very trying times. I mean, the president is a political arsonist. He lights fires and then he comes and sort of tells everyone that he's put them out, even though he is the one who's made the destruction. We remember during his first term, he wanted to find these 11 ,000 plus votes and we still had some Republicans who, you know, held the breach.

10:53We don't really have those Republicans nowadays and they recognize that many of their policies are wildly unpopular, whether it's LGBTQ plus issues, whether it's IVF and, you know, abortion rights for women, whether it's the environment or jobs, the list goes on and on. So the only way that Republicans will have some success in 2026 is to make sure they disenfranchise as many people and actually gerrymander folks out of districts. So as frustrating as it may be for people who wanted and still want, you know, politics the way we have had them and the way we were progressing as a nation in a small d democratic way, you know, as a professor, I've taught intro to politics for well over a decade.

11:32And we're not in that moment. And I think we have to be realistic about just how fragile we are. So many norms have been broken. So many things that we thought were laws do not actually exist. And we are sort of meeting George Washington's biggest concern that he talked about in his farewell address in the second term of Donald Trump and having people abdicate to him, having Congress give away their power, having the courts essentially say, you know, Donald Trump, whatever you'd like, we'll make sure it happens. So this is a new era. I think it will make some Democrats somewhat uncomfortable to see this type of forceful language and action.

12:08But if it is what saves this nation from falling off of a cliff and into, you know, fascism, I think that, you know, it's a hard pill to swallow, but it's one that must be had before 2026 to make sure that we actually do have midterm elections and actually can get people back into Washington, D.C. to make some decisions on behalf of the American people. Right. And it may be the dead of summer. It may Maybe a time where people are understandably focused on other things. And yet that's precisely when this power grab began because they want to, as you said, change what would have been a free and fair midterms.

12:44Maybe because they are so worried about losing. Christina Greer, Buffy Wicks, my thanks to both of you. The Trump White House is also trying to rebrand something that people don't like, the budget that's kicking so many off health care. We have that coming up. and Trump's D.C. takeover getting South Park treatment, something we know that bothers the president. But first, Michelle Goldberg is here to follow up on the reporting we've been doing on Epstein, what you need to know, and why the scandal won't quit for Donald Trump heading into Labor Day. We're back in 90 seconds. Support for this podcast comes from Progressive, America's number one boat insurer.

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14:45President Trump's problems in the Jeffrey Epstein case continue this week. A judge rebuked what looked like a ploy by the Trump administration to take some of the documents to court when they could release most of them. denying that request, calling it a distraction. Key officials are also going under oath this week, including the Trump attorney general who was in charge when Epstein died. And there were so many questions about the missing videos and secrecy. That's Attorney General Barr. Now, we have been following this story, breaking down not only the corruption, but how far back it goes. This is a new timeline that we debuted this week, and I want to show you part of this special report.

15:22Local police in Palm Beach, Florida, began a probe into Epstein, investigating reports of abusing victims as young as 14. The local case led to Epstein's indictment for a single count of soliciting prostitution. Epstein reached a deal with the Bush administration's federal prosecutors to take that local Florida conviction for soliciting prostitution with an adult and a minor. Epstein got a lenient, short prison sentence and an unusual agreement that the Bush DOJ would not prosecute Epstein further or four of his co-conspirators or any others. Another nine years went by and then the Miami Herald reported an Epstein expose on the allegations of his conduct and that Bush-era prosecutor who cut the sweetheart deal.

16:13That investigative report gained traction partly because of a tie to Trump, who promoted the very prosecutor, Alex Acosta, to his cabinet, leading to a fairly swift federal indictment of Epstein on far more serious sex trafficking charges. Epstein was found dead in his cell. Situation was suspicious. Officials there broke several protocols. Epstein was a high-profile detainee. He'd been placed on suicide watch, which was then quickly lifted. Guards failed to do required inspections the very night of his death. and a lot of questions were hanging over all of this. Trump Attorney General Barr even admitting the prison made mistakes then, but claiming that he personally reviewed prison video which showed no one entering the cell.

16:56And with Epstein dead, prosecutors turned to a co-conspirator who might have benefited from that original Florida case being shut down, what I told you about. They went ahead and indicted Ghislaine Maxwell for helping Epstein's sex trafficking. It was a problem for Trump, given that he promoted the original prosecutor, that he oversaw the DOJ, which failed to answer questions or have transparency about whatever happened in that prison cell. Bondi went from saying there was a client list to there wasn't. She was lying then or lying now. The DOJ memo then said there was no other Epstein info that was going to be released, which ignited that firestorm of criticism we all lived through.

17:36The Trump administration's contradicting claims drew more heat on its secrecy. The DOJ then sent this former Trump criminal defense attorney to interview Maxwell in prison and then transferred her to a better prison, an apparent reward for the one person doing any time for Epstein's indicted federal crimes. This is a damning account of President Trump's approach to this case in government. Now, this is a serious governing problem for President Trump and the DOJ and obviously the impacted victims. Even if we learn nothing else about this, it's an open scandal for this administration. And then there are the glaring and inconvenient facts that go back even further before Trump was in government.

18:23Legally, these social links alone are not evidence of a crime. They are evidence of a conflict of interest, the kind of link that requires a judge or prosecutor to recuse from a case. But Trump has been doing the opposite, commenting and intervening, his DOJ's actions on Epstein repeatedly putting secrecy over facts.

18:48Secrecy over facts and a lot of a cover-up over the victims who, as you see in that Fuller timeline, were cut out of the initial deal struck by the prosecutor, later promoted, and then ousted by the Trump administration. And so many of these victims say they feel cut out again as Maxwell gets special treatment. We trace that timeline in the new special report here, and we're going to bring in a New York Times columnist, Michelle Goldberg, who's been writing about the politics and the ethics of this when we come back.

19:23He ever socialized with Donald Trump in the presence of females under the age of 18?

19:36Though I'd like to answer that question, at least today, I'm going to have to assert my fifth, sixth of what is the amendment right, sir? Now, deceased Jeffrey Epstein there, refusing to answer that question in a deposition. We're joined by New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg, an MSNBC analyst. Michelle, it is actually easy to lose some of the thread or the facts on this sordid story. We looked at the timeline both because it shows some of the fundamental problems of corruption, secrecy, putting victims last, which predates Trump. But then either total willful blindness or or worse in how Trump has promoted, involved himself with those past deals and then acted to help an Epstein conspirator when it's all said and done.

20:29Well, I think that helping the Epstein conspirator is really the most shocking and sort of openly scandalous part of this story right now. I mean, it's kind of it's astonishing even in a world in which it's hard to be continually astonished by what this administration does, but that he for some reason that his administration decided to grant this incredible favor to Jelaine Maxwell to transfer her to, you know, and I'm not against. in general, you know, I believe in mercy for people who've committed crimes. But there is no kind of normal explanation for transferring an incarcerated sex offender, an incarcerated sex trafficker to a minimum security prison.

21:15Like, that is actually against regulations. So you had to give her some kind of special deal. And there hasn't been a single word of explanation about why this happened. Right. They don't even pretend to have a cover story. And that leaves open the question of whether someone who was first and foremost a Donald Trump defender, his criminal defense attorney, who then was rewarded with an unusually high position in the DOJ. You know, in the Clinton era, they were very much thrashed and attacked for far less than that as supposed conflict. So this defense person, a kind of a fixer, is there perhaps looking after Donald Trump's interests.

21:59And then and then the Epstein conspirator is rewarded. So when you when you draw the timeline out, it gets sort of worse and worse. And I don't think we're done based on what the activities this week, new documents potentially tomorrow. Well, new documents potentially tomorrow, you know, a judge this week being very, very clear and explicit that not only was this was the attempt at kind of getting these grand jury documents released, not only was that a diversion in the judge's words, but that there's being very clear that there's, you know, 100 ,000 documents that the administration could release if it so chooses.

22:35Now, Labor Day is coming up. People are going to go on vacation. But as soon as, you know, sort of the world returns to work after Labor Day, or at least Washington returns to work after Labor Day, you're going to have this big press conference in Washington, D.C. with Ro Khanna and Thomas Massey, a Democrat and a Republican, bringing a bunch of Epstein's victims, some of whom they've said haven't spoken publicly before, to tell their stories. And it sounds like kind of express their unhappiness because some of them now also have demanded more transparency from this administration, which ironically, the administration claims that its lack of transparency is to kind of protect these victims.

23:20Yeah, and Attorney General Barr has his own agenda here and his own exposure from being the principal law enforcement official in charge when Epstein died. Then they lost the tapes. Then years later, they release other tapes. And everyone's heard about the controversy about the full veracity of those tapes. Interestingly, one lawmaker says that in that new bar testimony this week, he also tried to throw his successor, Pam Bondi, under the bus and say whatever she claims in her memo and whatever Trump's claiming, of course, they can release virtually all. I mean, there may be some redactions here or there of names or grand jury material, but virtually all, 99 percent of the Epstein documents.

24:00Take a listen. He indicated that the current attorney general, Pam Bondi, has it within her power to release those files right now. And so we're once again saying she should release the entire files. And this idea that she's going to roll out some of it on Friday and then continue this kind of planned stage rollout is not acceptable. Meanwhile, as you've written about, there is an unusually factual or transparency-oriented call within the MAGA base. I don't recall them being this excited about environmental FOIA requests or other information about Donald Trump's businesses. Even right now, good government people say, whatever your politics, it would be better to know more about the president's new crypto investments and whatnot because it affects the banking system.

24:50Something we've all lived through what happens when that doesn't go well. Putting that all aside, though, Michelle, it does seem for a bundle of reasons that the base there does care about getting these documents. Do you think the politics of that will continue to keep this issue alive on the right? Right. So I think, look, I think that there are some people on the right who are willing, like Charlie Kirk said, to just say, I'm not going to talk about this anymore because, you know, sort of I have my marching orders. There are a lot of mega loyalists who would forgive Donald Trump if he met, you know, if Epstein handed a girl to him on Fifth Avenue.

25:23But there's also I think there's there's two other categories of people or maybe more, but there's two main categories of people. There's a people who are really attached to this conspiracy theory, who have really, truly believed that they were heading towards some grand, cathartic revelation in which all of their enemies were going to be, you know, kind of revealed in all of their villainy and finally punished. And it's sort of baffling to them that Trump is refusing to give them this. And some of them, I think, you know, you hear Joe Rogan, some of them are saying, well, he's in the files. You know, did he do something?

25:59But I think a lot of them think that he's covering up for even more powerful figures. So in some ways, the conspiracy theory is just expanding. And there's a lot of them who believe that there is some kind of Israeli conspiracy theory, that that's who Trump is covering up for. And it's at a time when anti-Israel and, frankly, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories on the right have become much more mainstreamed and much more prevalent. And so I think that that part of the MAGA base is not going to be satisfied with, you know, that sort of saying nothing to see here. Right. And as you as you remind everyone, both things can be true.