DOJ Opens Inquiry into Fed Chair Powell

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0:43You can even mix things up with same-game parlays for a shot at a bigger payout. FanDuel, it's time to dance. 21 plus in President Select States. Bonus bets are non-withdrawable and expire 7 days after receipt. Tokens are received in increments of 1 per day. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Welcome to The Beat. I'm Ari Melber. Our top story tonight is the news upending Trump's embattled DOJ and driving outrage against Trump in the powerful corridors of Wall Street. Trump's largely admitted agenda of abusing power to investigate, even indict those who exercise their right to stand up to him, an effort which has probed and indicted several major figures, including the flailing or failed cases against FBI vet Comey and New York Attorney General James.

1:28now includes another target. As the Trump administration has been outed for this news, launching an unusual criminal probe into an official who's clashed with Trump for years, you may recall, Federal Reserve Chair Powell. That's driving these headlines today. Powell joins this list of people who are, remember, diverse in their backgrounds, party affiliation, and all kinds of other factors. Indeed, what they have in common on the enemies list that Trump's own aides promised, some of them under oath not to pursue. All they have in common is they've exercised their rights to stand up to Trump. And Powell's entire job is to run independent policy, not bow to any politician's demands.

2:08Not President Biden, who he served before, not Trump in his first term, etc. That's why the Fed's independent. By doing that job independently, he's clearly upset Trump, just as President Trump cracked down on officials that we showed you, like Comey or his former appointee, Bolton. Powell responding now by directly accusing Trump of abusing this threat of criminal charges to interfere with the Fed's independent work. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public rather than following the preferences of the president.

2:46Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do, with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people. That's the rare video statement pushing back. The details about this new Trump DOJ case sound almost comically thin. They don't involve any obvious misconduct or financial matters or some personal matter or crime alleged. alleged instead they have Powell testifying something you're supposed to do in the job and whether he was 100 % accurate in testimony about the scope of a long-running renovation of the Fed building.

3:30Powell's adamant that that topic itself, the whole thing, is a lie, is a fake pretext. He said as much in the statement in a different part. Trump's also used similar types of claims to go after another member of the Fed, in her case just trying to say there was some sort of financial malfeasance and then oust her over that, which he doesn't really probably have the power to do, but it's all the way going up to the Supreme Court. Trump also happened to tour the renovations now being discussed. This was last summer. He toured them with Powell. It looks like it's about$3.1 billion. It went up a little bit, or a lot.

4:07So the$2.7 billion is now$3.1 billion. I'm not aware of that. Yeah, it just came out. Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody. But you just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building. It's a building that's being built. It was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago. It's part of the overall.

4:30You can see there the kind of fact checking that the president's not accustomed to in person, maybe didn't like. But the issue here with Trump is he's now claiming he doesn't even know about this probe. he is denying it, which is a reminder that this probe is suspicious enough, bad enough, that the president doesn't want to be tied to it. But allies of Powell, independent experts, even some Republican members of Congress find that hard to believe. And remember, we have a system where sometimes the government is given a certain amount of deference in life, in law, in policy.

5:09When the we might analyze them, sometimes fact check them, but there is some deference. Donald Trump has blown up any such deference. And so it is not an ideological or political matter when someone lies this much, this frequently about these topics that he is now finding that even Republicans, let alone the rest of the reality-based community, don't give him deference. They don't believe that this is the legitimate reason for the probe. And Trump's admitted abuse of federal probes against others adds to that picture. and how this probe may be tainted by Trump's political appointee, Jeanine Pirro, former Fox host, overseeing it.

5:48There's another Trump loyalist also involved. Bill Pulte serves as the, quote, attack dog on Powell and other Trump targets like Letitia James. He is now under scrutiny for using his power to try to build the groundwork for four different probes that we know of. In fact, showing that he thinks he can weigh in on this, he has a different job. He's not at DOJ. He even posted about how, I believe whoever the president names chair will be excellent and Powell will soon be gone. Powell's Fed chairmanship does set to expire this year, but he has several more years on the Fed. And this individual, Pulte, seemed very comfortable posting about it.

6:25Now, again, this may be a tell in the same way that Trump guiltily doesn't want anything to do with this sort of news today. Now, Pulte says he can't discuss this even after discussing it before.

6:39Emily Bazelon:Why is Trump's DOJ investigating Chairman Powell? Is this all politics? This whole thing is outside of my purview, Maria, so I'd refer you to the DOJ on that matter. If it's outside of his purview, he better tell his own Twitter. The DOJ does not have credibility under Trump and Bondi. That may be a sad fact. It may complicate cases where we do want to look at what the government says and take it seriously. But these revenge cases, some of them dismissed, some of them dropped, some of them awaiting trial, several of them involving subpoenas flying around, indicting a congressional candidate, they have hit already a ton of setbacks.

7:20We've added Powell today to the lower right corner. The abuse of legal powers here are not occurring in a vacuum either. I have to remind you tonight, as you may know, the Trump DOJ's attacks on these senior officials in a sort of orderly fashion, if you want to call at that, a kind of a bureaucratic autocracy in Washington, run alongside something much more extreme, the sometimes lethal use of force by Trump administration agents on the streets, which drew those big protests this weekend, and we have more on that later tonight. Some Wall Street and Republican figures also see a red line crossed today with Powell, which is why we can report within this quick span of time more pushback than on certain other matters, including, for example, how people are treated in the streets by ICE.

8:05Now, that partly may be because he is so key to the economy. So he just touches a lot of other things, and they already know that. For many others in these elite circles, it may be that they see him as a more relatable or sympathetic target, a 72-year-old establishment figure who holds this job because he was first elevated to the Fed by President Trump in his first term. He is someone who has stated facts and disagreed with the president, but he is literally an early Trump appointee and was renewed by President Biden in that now decaying tradition where you hold over certain people because they are in the job, not necessarily because you've already vetted them politically.

8:48So if some on Wall Street or in these elite Republican circles see this tonight as a red line, there is a dark echo here for autocratic times if you know your history. When they came for the immigrants, I didn't stand up. I wasn't an immigrant. When they came for the protesters, I didn't stand up. I wasn't protesting. But when they came for the Trump appointee chair of the Federal Reserve and all the money coursing through Wall Street, well, now some elites are standing up. Republican Senator Tillis, using his key role on these issues because he has a banking role, they're in oversight in the Senate to push back.

9:26He says it's clear now the Trump administration wants to end the independence of the Fed. He says in the statement that Trump and Bondi's DOJ are actually the entity that faces questions over independence and credibility. And Tillis is going beyond just typing. He has vowed now through his role to fight Trump on the whole plot and the effort to reshape the Fed, saying, we'll see if he does this, but going farther than some Republicans, saying he will oppose any more nominees by Trump to the Fed, resisting any effort to change the composition of the Fed until the DOJ resolves or backs down on this probe, which Tillis says is purely an abuse of power.

10:09So on the one hand, wow, so Republican actually standing up and not just saying, hey, we got to put pressure and watch the courts and do all the things we hear from elites in D.C. He's actually using the power he has and saying, I get it. You want to control the Fed. Congress has a say. we're not going to let you put anybody on here if you keep up with this BS. That's what he's saying. We'll see if he lives up to it. But on the other hand, I just reminded you that they're shooting people in the face in the streets. And they've indicted all those people I showed you on that chart. So if it takes Powell to wake you up, okay.

10:46And if it takes the next one to wake you up, fine. And if it takes too long to wake up, well, you won't be awake to fight when they take all of it away. I want to bring in our guest tonight, Emily Bazelon from The New York Times Magazine, and Molly Jong-Fast, contributing opinion writer from The New York Times. Emily, your thoughts both on what's happening and what is some fast pushback from unusual quarters on this one?

11:08Emily Bazelon:Well, I kept thinking, what if we could go back a year and know what we know now, that there would be two members of the Federal Board of Reserve under criminal investigation by the Trump administration? That would be completely shocking a year ago. But it's happened gradually. And it's happened in tandem with all the other things you are pointing to, especially these actions by ICE agents on the street. And so it's really important to just think about how shattering this is of our norms, of the credibility of the Justice Department and the administration without losing sight of that. Right. Because you can sort of get caught up in following the ball every day and forget to take a step back and think about just how really this has not happened before.

11:53Emily Bazelon:And the independence of the Fed has been so crucial to the American economy and the world economy. And Trump seems determined to try to shake all of that up. A couple of quotes, Molly, from Republican Murkowski. Nothing more than an attempt to coercion. Congress needs to investigate the DOJ. So that's an immediate statement of no, actually, investigators are the problem. You see here, Republican Kramer, I don't believe Powell's a criminal. Another rep, it creates a distraction that's mild. I say to you, Molly, because I wasn't a 72-year-old banking ally, I didn't stand up. Does that apply here for people?

12:32Emily Bazelon:For sure. And I think you have a really good point about the sort of craziness we've seen with ICE and that this is the thing that gets Republicans immediately to stand up. I want to point out it is just also a very dumb thing of Trump to do. Right. There are 12 people who vote on interest rates. So him going to war with the chairman of the Fed won't necessarily do anything. And you see already Tillis saying he's not going to you know, the Senate needs to appoint the successor for Powell and Powell can just stay on. And I think that this is just and, you know, Powell's also already lowered interest rates and the case is just so thin.

13:10Emily Bazelon:Right. He's going after him because the renovations went over budget. I mean, this is just so preposterous. And that's what keeps happening with this administration is they keep cooking up these preposterous cases. Yeah. And they don't expect to win them all. Emily, we'll put the faces chart back up. As Molly said, it's easy, you both alluded to, it's easy to forget just how extreme the methods are and how many people have been ensnared. Many of them, like I said, Republican appointees. When you look at this pushback, here it is. I mean, Comey dismissed. The lower rung on the right has a congressional candidate.

13:46You've got now Powell in there. This one is designed probably not to win. Anyone around Trump, including Pirro, knows how thin this is. But to intimidate and to chill and to try to change the way the Fed does its work.

14:00Emily Bazelon:Right. And until four Republicans at least refuse to vote for the next Fed candidate, Trump is succeeding in pushing and coercing and appearing strong. They have to stop him before he doesn't feel like he's gaining ground in all of this. And, you know, we haven't really seen that yet. So I think you could say that it's dumb and I take that point. But I also think over time he does have the power to change the composition, the majority. And he's willing always, it seems, to kind of take this extra outlandish step and see if somebody stops him. But the one thing I would say is that last week you had five Republicans break with him on the War Powers Act, including Republicans we don't often see break with him like Josh Hawley and Todd Young.

14:46Emily Bazelon:So that's going to go that's going to be discussed this week. And so Donald Trump is not he's sort of on a back foot. And then he's got the House that voted against him on this Obamacare tax credit expansion. So he's not in a great spot to go do insane legal maneuvering like he could you could see already to have broken. You could see more going along with this. Well, right. And that, Emily, speaks to how he rolls. He could be down three touchdowns and they're still just airing it out. There's no defensive posture here until unless somebody makes him at the courts, midterms, those type of things.

15:24But in the meantime, what normal politics is where you say, oh, people need a week off or give it a break or whatever. No, there's none of that with him, even as Molly's right. I mean, from December to now, he lost the Epstein vote in historic fashion. He lost those two measures there. And tonight you say, oh, we're going to press Powell. And instead you get both Republicans in public and whatever they're hearing from Wall Street on the private lines saying back off. Right.

15:50Emily Bazelon:And we also have bombs in Venezuela and the extradition of Maduro. It seems like sometimes it's just about changing the subject, even if the particular action is not itself popular. And it also just seems like Trump is taken with appearing strong and appearing powerful and daring people to stop him. And as yet, I, you know, we'll see if you're right. And I take your point about the vote on the War Powers Act, or at least the discussion of the War Powers Act with five Republicans. But we just haven't seen them really come together in any kind of unified way and take him on. And he knows that. So he keeps daring them to do it.

16:28And then you have him in that extraordinary freewheeling New York Times interview admitting that, you know, he would like to steal elections if he could get away with it, which itself should be right. This is like itself should be its own story. I want to ask you both about the meaning of this and the confessional aspect of it. You're both staying with me. We'll get into that when we're back in 90 seconds. If you're a parent and want to help set up your child for success, then IXL is a right for your family. As an effective and affordable online learning program, IXL covers math, language arts, science, and social studies, using interactive practice problems for kids from pre-K to 12th grade.

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18:18We're back with Emily Bazelon and Molly Jong-Fast. The president gave a big freewheeling interview to the New York Times because apparently he wasn't that satisfied with how the week after Venezuela was going. And he took all kinds of questions. He discussed how there was this busted attempt. It was caught where he wanted at one point to have Sidney Powell oversee some sort of special counsel to get the military to seize voting machines. It's unclear whether the troops would ever do that. But he says in the interview, well, I regret it. I should have gone forward with it. From what we understand, Emily, he couldn't go forward with it.

18:57He always likes to speak in terms of being all powerful. His own most fringe advisor said no. And not to sound naive here on the news, but there are things, particularly on the home front, that if you call up a general and say, do it, that they won't do. If you said to a general, go bomb all the headquarters for all these political parties with military bomb. I mean, there are things, although he's been pushing it. This one, he probably couldn't have gotten done. What does it tell you about his frame of mind or his sort of slipping, blunt, confessional mode that he admits in public? This is a scandal that he regrets not doing something that was probably in a legal order.

19:37Emily Bazelon:I think he remains super fixated on the idea that the 2020 election was stolen from him. He's not letting go of that because it's crucial to his narrative that he never loses, that he was the victim. And it's like core. And so it leads him to say things like this, which seem against interest and would, you know, have been enormously consequential for the country if he'd actually tried to do something like that. You're right. His own Justice Department stood up to him and said, no, the remaining leadership were resigning if you try to bring forward this fake fraud investigation into the election results.

20:16Emily Bazelon:But he's still thinking about it because he wants to rewrite that history. Yeah. And Molly, in a scenario in 28 where, say, a Republican or an ally is on the ballot, if they're losing and Trump stands to benefit a lot from keeping the party in control, you can imagine him going back to this playbook. And I've said it and I've written it. I've quoted it. There are deeper thinkers than myself who said a coup that goes unpunished becomes a training exercise. Right. And this is worse than that because it's a coup that's been rewarded with special treatment for the now freed convicts. How much does this weigh on planning to Trump proof 28?

20:56Yeah.

20:57Emily Bazelon:And look, I mean, first of all, it's an insane thing for a president to say. And it shows a lot of lack of impulse control when it comes to Trump. Like, you know not to say stuff like this. And one of the things that I think is so interesting about Trump is you do see him often telegraphing things he wants to do or might do. So, you know, he'll give you a heads up, which in itself is I mean, we're just in upside down world either way. But I do think he is not on the ballot next time. And I do think it's sort of interesting that he's saying this. Right. He is not on the ballot next time. Like he may joke about it.

21:34Emily Bazelon:He may try to say he's on the ballot, but he's not. And and he is a lame duck. And some of what's happening here is this, you know, he sort of he doesn't want to be a lame duck. He wants to make it seem like he has. Would you want to be a lame duck, Molly? Wouldn't you rather be a powerful duck? I wouldn't want to be the lamest duck. Yeah. Give it a choice. That's right. Yeah. And you're reminding everyone how it works. And that's why there is, of course, this distinction between the real things. I mean, one of the Republicans defending the Powell probe said, oh, you know, he might be trolling.

22:05Well, that's a problem. You're not allowed to abuse power for false or joking trolling motives. You are allowed to troll on the Internet if that's how you want to spend your time in government. So you have some people that minimize it that way. But if he's doing that for PR, yes, that's him trying to be the main character at all times. When you're doing it over here and saying, no, I might actually try to steal another election. Yeah, we have a bigger problem. People have to take it seriously, even as we see above average pushback tonight. I want to thank Emily and Molly. Later in the show, there are other MAGA allies, including the so-called brocasters, turning on Trump.

22:40And we have a special guest and some special news that should be interesting. Thousands of rallies against ICE and on behalf of human rights around the country this weekend. That pushback continues. We have a special report on that as well as the officials getting grilled about the dissent crackdown.