Epstein Uproar Engulfs Trump White House

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0:40I'm Antonia Hilton in for Ari Melber tonight. We begin with the political crisis rocking Donald Trump. Overnight, new video surfacing showing Epstein being grilled about Trump in a deposition. Also today, the Speaker of the House directly contradicting Trump, saying this is not a hoax. And Trump's former defense attorney spent the day in a Florida prison talking to convicted Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell. It's a pivot point in the Trump presidency. As Politico puts it today, the Epstein bombshell explodes, adding the crisis is here. Today, the number two at the DOJ, Todd Blanche, is meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell in a federal courthouse in Tallahassee, Florida.

1:21But the meeting may be planting the seeds for more backlash. Maxwell's attorney spoke to the press afterwards. We had a very productive day today with the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche and Glenn Maxwell. He took a full day and asked a lot of questions. And Ms. Maxwell answered every single question. She never stopped. She never invoked a privilege. She never declined to answer. She answered all the questions truthfully, honestly, and to the best of her ability. And Maxwell's own brother is now saying she's preparing new evidence. But Epstein victims warn Maxwell, a convicted perjurer as well as a child sex trafficker, can't be trusted.

2:09Amid the clamor for more transparency, newly surfaced deposition video from 2010 shows an attorney for an Epstein victim asking Epstein about Trump. Have you ever had a personal relationship with Donald Trump?

2:26What do you mean by personal relationships? Have you socialized with him? Yes, sir. Yes? Yes, sir. Have you ever socialized with Donald Trump in the presence of females under the age of 18?

2:47Though I'd like to answer that question, at least today, I'm going to have to assert my fifth, sixth of Bortes' amendment rights, sir. What you saw there, it is all new context around the Wall Street Journal's bombshell reporting that Attorney General Pam Bondi told Trump in May his name was in the Epstein files, among many others, which is prompting new questions about who knew what and when. Former federal prosecutor Ankush Kadori saying, quote, right now, everyone should be asking whether the highest levels of the federal government, including but not limited to the president, the vice president, the AG, the FBI director, and possibly even some Republican leaders in Congress, depending on what they knew and when, have been misleading the American public for weeks, if not months.

3:35Amid all this, GOP Speaker Mike Johnson today undermining Trump's claims that the Epstein uproar is all just some sort of hoax. Listen to Trump and then Johnson contradicting him. It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net. And so they try and do the Democrats work. We want full transparency. We want everybody who is involved in any way with the Epstein evils, let's call it what it was, to be brought to justice as quickly as possible. And look, I think the president... This is not a hoax, in other words. I was not a hoax.

4:10Of course not. Ahead tonight, I'll talk to a House Democrat who just scored a major win against MAGA enablers in Congress, leading the charge to subpoena the Epstein files. Also coming up, an acclaimed journalist who's been tracking Epstein for years on What Trump Knows. But we start with our guests here tonight. We have Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney and MSNBC legal analyst and Norm Eisen, former Obama ethics czar and co-founder of Crew, the ethics watchdog group. Joyce, thank you for being here. I'll start with you. How strange is it for the number two at the DOJ to go to Florida and conduct an interview like this one?

4:53I'm not sure Strange even begins to capture this. It's completely unprecedented. You know, this is work for prosecutors who are handling cases. They know all of the evidence. They're capable of evaluating the witnesses. But oops, there's no way to have the lead prosecutor on this case conduct an interview because they've just fired Maureen Comey, the AUSA in the Southern District of New York who prosecuted this case. And beyond that, there is no case, Antonia. The Justice Department came out on July 6th with a statement saying there was no one left to be prosecuted. So there is a real question about what Todd Blanche is doing down in Florida.

5:32It doesn't look like the Justice Department's work. It looks like the president's work. And that casts a real political tinge over all of this. Norm, do you see this as kind of ethically murky for a few reasons? I mean, And she just spelled out there, Todd Blanche, having served in a personal capacity for the president. And then I was reminded today that Blanche actually at one point went on David Marcus. That's Maxwell's attorney's podcast. They know each other in a sort of social or at least casual way. So do you see something ethically murky here? Blanche going to meet with Miss Maxwell today with her defense lawyer, Blanche being Donald Trump's defense lawyer, and then Maxwell, who has been convicted of these heinous crimes and the same Department of Justice that Todd Blanche purports to represent, criticizing her as a liar.

6:31it looks like a cover-up of what Donald Trump may or may not have done. And when you put that together with the fact that Trump is in the Epstein files, they haven't produced that material, you have to wonder, can we rely upon whatever comes out of this unsavory meeting today? In prior administrations, for far less of a conflict, Antonia, they would bring in an independent counsel or a special counsel. So there's no whiff of this. But in those cases, you didn't have the president's former defense lawyer as the number two at the Department of Justice. So the whole thing reeks to high heaven. And I think part of the reason that it is so gripping Washington, gripping the American people, Donald Trump's poll numbers are plummeting now, 37 percent in the latest poll today is because it speaks to a larger sense of corruption.

7:37Donald Trump is in the White House making tens of millions of dollars for himself off of that office. Donald Trump is breaking the law. Over about 200 courts have said, you're breaking the law in your official acts. He's targeting these innocent migrants. These are not criminals. These are honest working people who've come to our country to do jobs. So there's a larger sense of corruption. It's perfectly captured by Donald Trump here having buddied up with the rich and powerful who victimized Jeffrey Epstein, victimized the most vulnerable. That's a slogan for the Trump administration, benefiting the rich and powerful Trump's cronies, victimizing the most vulnerable in our country.

8:25That's why it has such traction. And that's why we're starting to see Democrats, too, seize on this and get a little bit more comfortable in this space because they're starting, I've had conversations with them in recent days where they're starting to connect the Epstein case to the fighting oligarchy tour that we've seen Sanders and so many others join him on in recent days because they're picking up on the fact that the American public seems to already have actually drawn all those connections. It might be D.C. that was last to see how this whole framework works. Exactly. So all too often, our political leaders follow the heart and mind of the public.

9:02Perhaps it should be the other way. But these declining poll numbers really indicate the American people are sick of the corruption. And the Epstein scandal is just the latest example of the corruption. We see the pictures. We see the video. Donald Trump is clearly close to this heinous individual. And then we know there's documents. Why not release the documents at the Democracy Defenders Fund, where I'm now the chair? We've filed FOIA requests and we're prepared to litigate those FOIA requests. We're not going to rest until we get these Trump Epstein files. Joyce, I want your take on what we would even get from Ghislaine Maxwell.

9:44Obviously, today when her attorney spoke, they didn't give us much detail other than to say, you know, she answered every single question, that kind of thing. But as I laid out at the top of the show, she has a reputation. I mean, prosecutors laid it out as part of their story, their case against her, that she is a liar, a down player, a fabricator. So what are we to do with what we ultimately find out she has told Todd Blanch and the DOJ? So it's important to think about the fact that this is Jelaine Maxwell talking to the Justice Department, and the Justice Department's job is to prosecute cases.

10:22It's not to be some purveyor of truth to the American people. That's more in Congress's wheelhouse. So what we're asking here really is, what can this person as a witness contribute to a future prosecution? Now, look, we don't know why the government originally passed on signing her up as a witness, but I can make an educated guess having spent 25 years at DOJ. She's a witness I would have liked to have had against Jeffrey Epstein, and I would have given her a deal, maybe not a great one, but some kind of a deal in exchange for that testimony, because the person you really want to prosecute is the person at the top, the most responsible person.

11:03So DOJ would have tried to sign her up, and they apparently concluded either that she didn't have valuable testimony, which seems extremely unlikely here, or that she was not a reliable witness, that she wouldn't tell the truth, that she failed to disclose all the crimes that she and others participated in. There was a reason here, even if we don't know it. So that casts a real question as to why they're talking to her. There is really no way to guarantee her truthfulness in this setting. And as Norm says, it has the appearance of people trying to get their story straight. It looks more like a joint defense agreement in the works than it looks like prosecutors trying to figure out what a witness has to say because there's simply no case here to prosecute.

11:49It's so improper that it's very difficult to express it. The other piece of this, and correct me, both of you, if I'm wrong here, is it feels like this is also moving very quickly. This is a very complicated case involving a vast network, a lot of money, heinous crimes. Have the victims been given enough time to be consulted as we see all of these steps? The subpoenas moving very quickly. Todd Blanche flying to Florida. Is the pace here at all a concern to you both? Well, it is a concern to Judge Paul Engelmeyer here in the Southern District of New York, who has that grand jury subpoena matter.

12:31And in fact, he told DOJ, slow down. Have you considered the rights of the victims? And he set a schedule for briefing. You have to ask yourself if they're willing to release the most sensitive material. And I learned a lot that I know about Rule 6C that governs grand jury material from my friend Joyce Vance. If they're willing to release the most sensitive material in government, grand jury material, what about the rest of the files? What about the Trump Epstein mentions? Why not put it all out there? You have to think, well, maybe there's something negative in there for Donald Trump. But we don't know because they seem to be cherry picking with the Maxwell meeting with the grand jury materials.

13:20Joyce, a quick last word. Well, I think that's the real issue, as Norm says. We know that there are about 100 ,000 documents in this case, something like 300 ,000 pages. That could include physical evidence, too. If you want to know what happened here, release that evidence. These grand jury transcripts, it's probably just a summary FBI agent testifying to the grand jury, perhaps a little bit more than that if you want to find out the truth, release the documents. DOJ's reviewed them. They know what's in them. The fact that there's no call for their release suggests to me that there's information to be concealed.

13:59Joyce Vance, Norm Eisen, thank you both so much. Great to see you. Coming up, our live interview with a veteran journalist who spent years digging into the Epstein scandal, plus Trump's approval rating now plunging to the lowest of his entire second term. Michelle Norris is here on that. But first, a new bid by Republicans in Congress to protect Trump in the Epstein crisis. We'll talk with a Democratic lawmaker who just won a battle over subpoenas. We're back in 90 seconds.

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15:14It's destroying athlete, creator, and YouTube Maxer. YouTube Premium enhances how I use YouTube with awesome features like offline downloads so I can download my favorite training videos before I hit the gym. So no Wi-Fi doesn't turn leg day into loading day. Plus, I get ad-free videos, background play, and so much more. YouTube Premium is like YouTube got some extra gains. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. How can we not want to just know what happened? What are you afraid of? That's the question. Senator Cory Booker slamming Republicans who blocked his push for the release of more Epstein files.

15:55The GOP stopped a separate effort today from a different Democratic senator for transparency, too. In response, Democrats accused Republicans of trying to protect Trump. And then two Republican senators kind of admitted it. What we're simply wanting to do here is give them cover. If the same administration is blocking the information that is implicated in it, then it can look bad. It echoes Republican efforts in the House to avoid votes on the Epstein files. They're all fleeing D.C. to get away from the heat. But then a surprise. In a gambit, Democratic Congresswoman Summer Lee broke through the wall of resistance.

16:37Politico reports she seemed to catch Republicans on a House Oversight Subcommittee by surprise yesterday with a motion to subpoena the DOJ for the Epstein files. And the motion passed eight to two with three Republicans siding with Democrats, political calling it a, quote, major breakthrough. So joining me now is Congresswoman Summer Lee herself, Democrat of Pennsylvania. As we mentioned, she forced the vote to subpoena the DOJ over Epstein and even got some GOP support. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining tonight. So bring me into the decision to force this vote. And how did you get three Republican colleagues to come over on your side at a time when so many of them seem to want to get out of D.C.

17:20as fast as possible? Yeah, it was I mean, it was absolutely like the last thing that happened on the House in-house business before we got out. You know, I would say that, you know, with our new ranking member, Robert Garcia, we saw this hearing coming up. It was a hearing in a federal law enforcement subcommittee where I'm the ranking member. it was, you know, ostensibly about, you know, child sex trafficking, or at least that's what they were going to make it about. So we thought it was a good opportunity, right? We looked at the panelists, the folks who were on the Republican panel for the subcommittee, and those are all folks who had talked about very publicly, you know, their own desire to see the Epstein Files released, right?

18:00So what we recognized was this opportunity with this particular set of people, you know, to kind of bring their base with them to this subcommittee hearing and really just give them the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is and say that we can, in a bipartisan way, actually put an end to this. You can all stop running and hiding, and we can force this issue before we go home. On that, can you give us a little sense of what Republicans are saying about this whole thing behind closed doors? You know, are they annoyed by the fact that essentially they've been put in a position where they either need to look like they're defending what they know their constituents want.

18:37I mean, the polling is very clear. Americans on all sides, they want transparency and more information about Epstein or that they have to do what the president seems to want, which is clamp down this conversation. What are they saying when when no one's watching? So, you know, to be fair, they don't say much to me. And honestly, I think that probably a large portion of the Republicans were on a plane right by the time we had even taken that vote last night. So it would be conjecture. But I think that what has been happening this whole time, right, they're in between a rock and a hard place. Do you serve your people?

19:10Do you serve your base, a base that have been insistent about this? They've cut through all the noise. They've not been, I won't call it distracted, but they haven't, you know, all these other things have been happening. You know, departments closing and mass deportation and kidnappings and cuts to programs. All of these things have happened And yet and still Their base, our base And all the bases in between Have still been calling for these fouls So they knew That they either had to At that moment Choose their base Or they had to choose You know, kind of blind fealty Undying loyalty to one man And I think that That is, you know That's why there is an annoyance On their side, right?

19:48Because for so long They have gotten away with You know, Trump says Jump, they say How high And that's just been the way It's going for so long But finally something has broken Right? Their people were tired of the corruption. They were tired of the excuses. So they finally had a choice that they are not used to having to make. So I have a question for you and the Democrats then. You know, for a while now, we've heard that Steve Bannon alleges he has something like 15 hours of footage of Epstein. He said that in a year or so he was going to release it, create some kind of documentary. When are lawmakers going to put Steve Bannon on the spot?

20:23What can you do there? Well, as we saw and as we know, right, we do have subpoena powers within not just the oversight committee, but our subcommittees as well. You know, at the end of the day, right, we are in a minority on these, even on these subcommittees. So that we were able to get this one over shows and it had to be because there was an appetite from both sides. So right now we need to put the pressure on our Republican colleagues. We need to put the pressure on Mike Johnson to stop running and stop hiding. Bring in the folks, right? We're talking about child sex trafficking, you know, child abuse, abusive women, right?

21:03This is an issue that should be important to every single American, that justice, truth, and transparency is literally why we're here. It's who we're serving, and it's what we are supposed to be doing with our time in Congress, not, you know, so much of the circus, the performative myths that we do. This is the opportunity to actually do the thing that protects our constituents. So I, of course, encourage it. I encourage the very same Republicans who partner with, I won't call it a partner, but who joins us in this very reasonable motion, the opportunity will exist again. So if next federal law enforcement subcommittee hearing, they would like to join forces again, we are more than willing to do it.

21:44Well, Congresswoman Summer Lee, it seems like the next thing is to see if the DOJ complies with this subpoena. But thank you so much for joining. I'm sure we'll have to talk to you about this again. We'll be back. Later, I'll talk to the Texas progressive who's changing MAGA minds and winning lavish praise like this from Joe Rogan, of all people. That is the key step. Right. So you need to run for president. We need someone who's actually a good person. Also ahead, inside the siege mentality gripping Trump's White House amid brutal new polling. Plus, an acclaimed journalist who's been digging into Epstein for years will be here on what the files could reveal.

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23:58You're best friends with a pedophile for 10 years, one time, and the world never forgets it. Trump's longtime relationship with Jeffrey Epstein now casting a shadow over his presidency as new details just keep coming to light. A resurfaced video of Epstein from a 2010 deposition raising more questions. Have you ever socialized with Donald Trump in the presence of females under the age of 18?

24:33Though I'd like to answer that question, at least today, I'm going to have to assert my fifth, sixth of what is the amendment, right, sir? But as the DOJ interviews Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell, we're seeing a disturbing shift among some MAGA faithful, some right-wing commentators appearing to defend Maxwell. I do have a feeling that she has been... she just might be a victim. She just might be. She deserves to be out. And maybe she never deserved to be in there in the first place. I don't know, but I'm skeptical of everything and everybody these days. And you should be, too. Meanwhile, today, veteran Epstein investigative reporter Barry Levine laying out the road ahead in a new op ed posing questions he says need answers.

25:21Like, how did Epstein make his money to finance his criminal operation? Are there references to Trump in the files that shed more light on their relationship? And who exactly were the clients? Joining me now is the author of that op-ed, Barry Levine, author of The Spider Inside the Criminal Web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Barry, thanks for being with us tonight. So why do you think for so long those questions have gone unanswered? Well, finally, we may eventually get down to the end of this road. And, you know, beyond the journalists and authors like myself who have been looking into this case for decades, let's finally get some answers for the victims in this case.

26:05I mean, we know from the Justice Department there's over a thousand victims. And I interviewed many women when I was working on my book, got to know them. What has happened to them over the years? They're still traumatized. They're traumatized by everything that's going on. Just over the past few years, we've lost three of the victims, one by suicide earlier this year, two of them from accidental drug overdoses. They have lived with the horrors of what happened to them for so long now. And for politics to get involved, for Donald Trump, President Trump to call it a hoax, it's just wrong. We need to see the files for both sides of the aisle and for the American public to finally understand what's in that material.