GOP Senators Go After Dr. Anthony Fauci at Hearing

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0:54Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required. also in theaters. Welcome to The Beat, everyone. We have a lot to cover tonight, what we consider a pretty momentous, newsworthy day in Washington and a big show for you. I can tell you one of our top guests coming up is someone that this show, Nicole's show, Rachel's show, we've all relied on for reporting. And he's my guest tonight, White House reporter Jonathan Swan from The New York Times, of course, known from that book Regime Change, which has so rocked and upset the president and the Trump White House? Well, he's going to tell us about his reporting from inside the White House, some of it in the book, some of it more recent and new.

1:34So that is a special beat interview coming up, John Swan, tonight. So we will have that, including a look at how the president is struggling to deal with the Iran war timeline and these sagging midterm approval numbers. But we begin with the story out of Washington, the Senate holding fiery and at Times' farcical hearings today, questioning Dr. Anthony Fauci. And he pled the fifth, which itself is unusual for such a senior government official. He hasn't done that, of course, in the past. He's testified to many different Congresses under both parties. He did it today in protest of what he views as Republicans' unlawful demands that he be sent to jail and a forum that he and his lawyers say is completely rigged.

2:20So why engage with it? Now, Fauci spent, of course, decades as the federal government's infectious disease expert. He was central to the COVID response we all lived through, and he drew strong reactions, ranging from, at times, a hero's praise to the extreme demonization on the right, which has continued for years. Now, I'm going to show you everything you need to know about this tonight. I can tell you, first of all, having lived through this, covered it, I can remember how we switched from a normal newsroom to the remote work that everyone else did in that era, and we did it while trying to put on the news every night.

2:51I can tell you that over the years, the politics of COVID have been, of course, intense, but also strange. First, Democrats led a very strong response during the pandemic. They were out front. They were pushing for action and rules and change faster than the Trump administration. And it's pretty clear that Trump's struggles to face that crisis really dragged down his losing 2020 campaign. That's where the politics started. And while many moved on, indeed, it's pretty common to say, you don't want to talk about COVID. You don't want to look at pictures from that era. You don't want to go back to that time as a human.

3:24Of course, in journalism and politics and government, not everyone should have that luxury. And so while it's understandable that personally people moved on, in the politics here, I can tell you that in the years since COVID, It is Republicans who have hammered COVID policy, sometimes on legitimate policy questions about lockdowns or vaccine mandates, but also on really more extreme plots, including villainizing once obscure agencies like the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, which is not an agency most people could name, let alone have a bunch of beef with until COVID. and also pushing outright lies and unhinged conspiracy theories, some of which are dangerous in themselves.

4:10Now, today's hearing was dominated by angry Republican theater. But I also want to report for you that pursuant to this investigation, there is new evidence and reviews of that time period that also raise really valid questions about the government response, as well as some of Fauci's own priorities. So here's what we're going to do. Tonight, we are going to report out on both of those topics. First, today's hearing, which was a newsworthy clash, which also kind of strangely vindicated President Biden's own warnings against what he worried was Republicans criminalizing the public service of Fauci and other individuals in government.

4:54And he noted that in his pardon for Fauci, which itself was an unprecedented, extraordinary act of an outgoing president, well, today shows exactly what Biden was talking about. Second, basically in a few moments from now, I'm also going to report on the newly released writings from Fauci's diary. We're going to sift that evidence to objectively assess the record, including what in any review, journalistic, legal or otherwise, is really important evidence when you get firsthand primary source evidence. We're going to look at that, not just say the glowing or political accounts of Fauci. Now, beginning today, Republican Senator Paul, a doctor, was hammering Dr.

5:36Fauci for the COVID response, for how Fauci and others may have approached different theories of the pandemic's origin. And then, as I mentioned, they were pushing the McCarthyite calls to jail this distinguished and elderly doctor for years on these far-fetched claims that he misled Congress. Fauci critic Laura Ingram attended the hearing in some sort of solidarity of people who have been hammering Fauci. Republicans went after him as if at times it seemed like he was the one who caused COVID's death toll. Or that they argued Fauci maybe had no concern for the victims. Which is a very odd line of attack.

6:20If you all remember what we lived through, the way they talked about Fauci almost felt like a lifted projection of Trump's cold and meager response during that time. You force people to watch their loved ones die alone over the phone. It's disgusting. Who the do you think you were for doing that? Loss of trust may be your most damaging legacy. During the pandemic, you got rich, didn't you? It is a total disgrace what you did to this country. You got rich while people were dying, hundreds of thousands of Americans, over a million in the end. You lied to hundreds of millions of people amid the worst public health crisis in a century.

7:00COVID lockdown, however, could never have been inflicted without you aiding and abetting the crime. This has destroyed decades of progress and lifetimes of work because you wanted to fuel your own ego and be the center of attention. It went on and on like that. Dr. Fauci rebutted Senator Paul in saying the senator is obsessed with him. Fauci and his team argued the hearing was rigged, that it was aiming for that perjury trap I mentioned, so that he would invoke those rights, which, by the way, everyone has a Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate yourself. Although I will note for you that is unusual for federal officials, most of whom don't invoke it and tend to testify, which he has in the past.

7:42And add to that that Fauci already has federal immunity for his time in office from that Biden pardon, which was a move to preempt exactly what Republicans tried today. Now they're trying to say that they might find new conduct legally that took place after Biden left office, which is the duration of that pardon, as some sort of hook to then get the Trump DOJ to potentially indict Fauci. Now that sounds like quite a far-fetched bank shot and a legal abuse of power. But it's, of course, possible given how many other Republican and Trump foes are already being probed or charged under this discredited DOJ since the second term began.

8:26And so what we saw today was both the ultimate proof of why Joe Biden did what he said he did. He didn't give a bunch of, you know, far-fetched reasons. He very clearly said at the time, because of the criminalization of public service, he was going to take that unusual step and pardon Fauci. Some criticized at the time as extreme or paranoid. Today shows it was certainly not that. And so we're really seeing a criminalization of public service that builds on that enemies list I showed you. That also doesn't mean that Fauci is perfect and that the records and evidence that have come out vindicate everything he did.

9:08I told you we will get to that, and we will. I have a part two of our report tonight. I wanted to try to give you all the information and what matters out of today. Beginning with what I'm calling part one, I want to bring in Howard Dean, who is, of course, a doctor and a former governor and presidential candidate chair of the DNC. Dr. Dean, you know your way around the intersection of science, medicine and politics. I want to do both parts. So save any part two for me. I'm going to I'm going to show some of that. As for part one, how do you view what looks like an effort to badger, harass or even criminalize this doctor's service in government?

9:48Well, I got such a chuckle out of the people at the hearing. First of all, Senator Scott from Florida, I believe, was one of them. His company was indicted for over a billion dollars worth of Medicaid and Medicare fraud before he got to be governor and senator. I guess that's what they do in Florida as elect crooks. Josh Hawley was seen to be saluting all the January 5th or January 6th rioters that tried to upset, overturn the election. So it's kind of a crew of wackos there criticizing and yelling and screaming. A guy who has an extraordinary reputation internationally as being one of the best infectious disease countries, disease doctors in the world.

10:31You know, the Republicans are sort of pathetic, really. And there's a lot of screaming and yelling and insulting. But none of those people that were asking those questions have standing really to do it. Yeah. I mentioned to folks the Fauci response, which at times was using his legal rights. This was him pleading the fifth.

10:53The committee will have to consider after this hearing what appropriate action should be taken against you for the failure to testify after being directed to do so. It's against the law to obstruct an investigation of Congress. There will be repercussions to your refusal to testify today.

11:12And we want to see Fauci invoking the Fifth Amendment. Let's see if we have that as well. Did you literally lie to your own diary? On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. Do you feel like you're a deep... On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declined to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

11:43Your view on how he handled this, what was a difficult day? I think it's the only way he could handle it. You've got a bunch of jackals who, frankly, have pretty dark shadows in their own closets, screaming and yelling at them. How are you supposed to do this? Look, Fauci is one of the most respected infectious disease doctors in the country. None of those people up, I would not classify any of the senators as well respected at all. It's not to say all Republicans can't, you know, they're all Republicans are like that. But this was a particularly awful group who are grandstanding and hoping to get who knows what.

12:17Look, these are the people that brought us off the measles, put us back on the big measles problem list. These are the people that have screwed up public health care. These are the people that are bringing us this diarrhea epidemic that's going on over the country. These are the people that gutted FDA and the CDC. They have no standing at all. They're just a bunch of gas bags trying to make a point here. And I think it's terrific that Fauci has lawyers that are smart enough to tell him to do what he did. This is, you know, I am not a lawyer, but you are. I'd be very surprised if this got anywhere in a court.

12:58Yeah, well, that's our read. I mean, they don't have a strong case on the post-pardon period. And then we showed those a lot of enemies list cases are sold. Dr. Dean, I want you to stay with me. Our part two involves the fact that doctors aren't perfect. I don't know how you're going to handle that. Dr. Dean, though, will be with us. I want to turn to the new evidence from Fauci's own diary. Now, this is only released through the new probe, and it harkens back to that strange COVID period when Fauci became America's doctor, quite literally, as the New Yorker put it, even played on SNL by Brad Pitt.

13:35Good evening. I'm Dr. Anthony Fauci. First, I'd like to thank all the older women in America who have sent me supportive, inspiring, and sometimes graphic emails. And to the real Dr. Fauci, thank you for your calm and your clarity in this unnerving time. That kind of sums it up, having such a big star play you, but then also step back into himself to say how great, Fauci was. And when Trump failed to handle COVID well, many did flock to Dr. Fauci as the kind of alternative federal government leader. This Senate probe released a thousand pages, brand new, of Fauci's records from that time, as well as his diary.

14:19And it does cast a different light on, for example, his approach to the media, embracing his star power, sometimes as the public health messenger that's part of the job. But really clearly other times, it also looks like he was facing a kind of tempting personal conflict because he became fixated on aspects of his fame, even by the standards of Washington. Early in the crisis, when hundreds of thousands were sick or dying, Fauci wrote in his diary that his national and international fame was explosive and unimaginable. It is not hyperbole to say that today I am the most famous and talked about person in the country and one of the most recognizable persons in the world, he wrote in May.

15:05That claim is false. It does read like hyperbole. More Americans know and talk about Taylor Swift or LeBron James or Leonardo DiCaprio and many other people before talking about Fauci, even as he did dominate the attention of Americans who follow news or medicine and politics. Fauci wrote that his friends were saying he was a national hero, and he showed an interest in his rising star access, citing his invite from Joan Baez to the Kennedy Center. Another night, he recounted conversations with Julia Roberts, Sean Penn, Matt Damon, and a great call with Barbara Streisand, where he added, I brought the phone over to Alexa, asked to play songs by Streisand.

15:45When the song came on loud and clear, she started laughing and absolutely loved it. He noted that he would be swamped all night by people wanting to say hello and shake my hand and take pictures with me. I couldn't get away from it, he recounted at one event. There was almost a glee evidenced in the diary. Dr. Fauci at times sounding a bit more like a New York Post gossip column and rating the highest level of triple A list you could imagine in Washington at one of his events. Now, it's also true that anyone in his shoes might find that sudden shift quite dizzying. Fauci did become a cultural sensation.

16:21There was merchandise. There were shirts people wore around saying, in Fauci we trust The New York Times had a column about, thank God the doctor's in And it's not just Fauci's view, we should note even independent outlets like The Guardian said he did become a superstar There were the cover stories There was Time Magazine naming him the Guardian of the Year There was a National Geographic doc And press was of course part of his job The diary also includes him noting that Trump, quote, POTUS seems to be enamored of me, even though I'm taking the spotlight away from him. And even as we hear all these right wing critiques, it's worth remembering Trump himself awarded Fauci a presidential commendation on his last full day in office back when the president, Donald Trump, was touting vaccines and the Warp Speed Project.

17:17The diary also shows that Fauci was skeptical of the lab theory. He claimed he was open to it. Some government agencies, including DOE and the CIA, now favor the lab leak theory. It's something he noted in private. Critics say that the diary shows that he was basically more charitable to alternative views in science in private than he was in public, where Fauci, and he wasn't alone in this, was very quick to kind of attack certain things that were disagreed with as somehow fringe theories, including what was then the China lab leak theory. Now, in fairness, the diary also has all kinds of notes about work and meetings and new data and conference calls with scientists and all of the normal push and pull of life in the federal government.

18:03And we're reporting this out so you can see what the evidence shows. Lord knows if If you get a diary of any politician or public figure or Trump, it would be newsworthy. I will state for the record that his pretty intense fixation on PR does not suggest any dereliction of duty on the job. I want to bring back Dr. Dean. As mentioned, the probe may be suspect, but the evidence is real. Again, you've done medicine and politics, including at the DNC in Washington. I mention all this because he seemed really into it, even beyond some of the folks we've dealt with. How do you view this aspect of the story, apart from whether it is fruit of the poisonous Rand Paul tree?

18:46Well, maybe the senators are all jealous. He got a lot more press than they did, and he did a lot more for the country than they have. So, you know, I mean, whether this is vanity or surprise or whatever it is, look, I view Fauci as having contributed a tremendous amount to stabilizing the fears that were going on in this epidemic that nobody knew anything about. I am totally perplexed why these senators think this is a good idea. They look bad. I mean, I just this is the first time I've seen the clips and I would have a hard time voting for those guys. And some of them I like. I think Rand Paul has been great on some of the Trump scandals and standing up for the doing the right thing.

19:32But these I mean, I look at these guys. Don't you think a lot of these public sees this portrayal of senators and think, don't they have anything better to do? Well, the hearing I mean, we showed a little bit. We showed the hearing doesn't commend itself. well. Do you think, though, on the evidence that it looks like Fauci got also too enamored with the press role? I mean, time is finite. And now we see that he was really into that. Or do you view that as kind of just a very strange moment in our history and he was reacting to it? I'm not sure. I mean, I've never met Fauci. But what I saw is a guy who was sort of amazed at what had happened to him.

20:10I mean, I don't think that was particularly evidence of getting a swelled head. Maybe he just thought, here I am, this guy is this physician, a very well-known ID physician. And now I've got all this fame and he's sort of marveling at it is what I got. But, you know, so what? I mean, this is a nothing burger concocted by senators who would like to divert the fact that they've gotten us into a war, that they don't have the, you know, what to stand up to a guy who's making a mess of our economy that are responsible for gasoline being over $4 a gallon, and that some of whom are going to go down and not be in the Senate in about 20 weeks.

20:55So I think there's a lot more to do with that than it does with Fauci. If you eat the wrong nothing burger, you can end up getting measles. Yeah, especially since the Republicans don't seem to believe in vaccines anymore, which is costing a lot of kids their lives. Well, we wanted your views on this. And like I told viewers, you're going to find out what happened. And the diary is part of what happened because it's out. It's newsworthy. But you've given us a lot of food for thought to extend the nutritious metaphor and being laser focused on the substance here. As you said, voters will look at things like today and make up their own minds.

21:34Dr. Governor Dean, thank you, sir. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Appreciate it. We've got a lot more in the show. I mentioned there is intrigue in Washington as the Trump attorney general pick is in doubt with tomorrow's scheduled vote. But as promised, Jonathan Swan, the heavyweight reporter, chaos in the Trump White House next.

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22:37Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Koepp starring Emily Blunt, Josh O 'Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson, and Coleman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required. Also in theaters.

23:21Just get them all. Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow.

23:31Turning now to reporting from Jonathan Swan of The New York Times and a lot of the environment as Trump's war hits the sixth month. New escalations. More countries drawn into the conflict. Iran launched a surprise missile attack on the U.S. The Iran-backed Houthis in Yemen going after a Saudi Arabian oil tanker. The hostility is spreading with no end in sight. Trump knows the war is deeply unpopular. This came up on Fox. So the World Cup was with all the Trump people. Yeah. So Jared talked to everybody. So I was asking, I'm kind of like the idiot that asks real questions when people should be hanging out.

24:09They said, I realize the war is not that popular. I also realize it's necessary. The ripple effects of the war are clear. Most Americans now disapprove of Trump's job performance. It's gotten worse during the war. Three quarters say he's focused on the wrong priorities. And we hear so much about the MAGA base, but that narrative has crashed. Fewer than 20 % of Republicans are enthusiastic about the rest of Trump's term. He simply does not have the hardcore MAGA support, which would put up with almost anything he did that existed in the first term. And then there's a decline in Trump's key voting blocks.

24:49Remember, over half of Gen X voters went for Trump in 24. 54 % crashing now to 33. That's a warning sign because Republicans would need those voters to hold Congress or at least stem their losses. When you look at places like Texas, Trump's base is angry. This is a disaster. We are facing tyranny. It is kind of crazy, dude, how mainstream, how unpopular Trump is. The big, beautiful bill, which Trump is talking about on the stump, has a terrible reputation. People don't like it. Even Trump's base doesn't like it. And we're talking about, like, hardcore Republicans. And even these guys are like, I just, I can't do anymore with Trump.

25:33I just, like, I feel betrayed. I'm calling for it right now. 25th Amendment, impeachment, whatever needs to happen. When Alex Jones sounds like the liberal Midas touch, well, we're in some kind of topsy-turvy place heading into the midterms. And there's fewer than 100 days left for Republicans and Trump to turn it around. The aforementioned Jonathan Swan, the heavyweight New York Times reporter with the big Trump bookout, is our special guest next.