Leader Jeffries on Government Shutdown

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0:44Find fragrances from perfume to candles or opt for a brand name bag. Plus, your store had a glow up, so it's more fun to shop for those special women in your life. Mom is wow upside down after all. Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow. Welcome to The Beat. I am Melissa Murray in for Ari Melber, and we have a lot to cover tonight. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries is standing by as he stares down President Trump amid the government shutdown. Plus, Andrew Weissman will be here to discuss Trump's explosive new claim to wartime powers. And while the DOJ and the FBI insist that there is, quote, no credible evidence that Jeffrey Epstein blackmailed prominent people, one administration official is singing a very different tune.

1:34That's what his M.O. was, you know, get a massage, get a massage. And what happened in that massage room, I assume was on video. This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever. Blackmailed people. That's how he had money. We start tonight, though, with the shutdown in Washington, D.C., which Donald Trump is trying to use to maximize pain and punish political foes. That's how the New York Times put it, as Trump forges ahead with plans to conduct mass layoffs. Permanent firings have never happened before in a government shutdown. Now, though, senior government officials are privately warning that there will be firings and against those firings, advising the administration that they would be unlawful.

2:19Today, Press Secretary Caroline Levitt seemed unbothered by the prospect of mass federal terminations. Can you give us an estimate on the amount of federal workers the Trump administration wants to fire during the government shutdown? I'll be talking about hundreds, I'll be talking about thousands. Look, it's likely going to be in the thousands. New polling shows that when it comes to casting blame for the shutdown, more Americans are pointing to the Republicans than to the Democrats. 47 % to 30%, according to The Post. And Politico is reporting that a bipartisan group of lawmakers is quietly meeting, searching for a way out of all of this.

2:59But today, Speaker Johnson seemed to throw cold water on the prospect of negotiations. Take a listen. There is no gimmick. People say, why aren't you negotiating with Schumer and Jeffries? Because I quite literally have nothing to negotiate. Joining me now to discuss all of this is House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries. Leader Jeffries, thanks for joining us. What can you tell us about where we are with these negotiations? Apparently, there is nothing to discuss. Well, good evening, Melissa. Great to be with you. And that's exactly right. Since the White House meeting that took place on Monday, Republicans have gone radio silent.

3:39It's clear that they wanted to shut this government down and they wanted to shut it down because they were unwilling to provide health care to working class Americans. Our position remains the same. We're ready. We're willing. We're able to sit down with anyone, anytime, anyplace here at the Capitol or back at the White House to have a conversation about reopening the government in the midst of this Trump shutdown, finding a bipartisan path toward reaching a spending agreement that actually meets the needs of the American people and making sure that we address the Republican health care crisis, which is devastating people all across the country.

4:17Can we talk a little bit about what you just said? The Democrats have been very clear in their messaging. You are emphasizing that the shutdown is about the Republicans refusing to restore health care funding. But some have argued that it would be equally compelling for the party to say that it is refusing to fund an administration and government that is bent on abusing its power. Why focus exclusively on health care? Why not carry both messages forward? Well, in the legislation that we introduced as part of our democratic approach related to avoiding a shutdown or in this instance, now reopening it, we made clear two things that we're faced with a massive Republican health care crisis related to the largest cut to Medicaid in American history.

5:01Hospitals and nursing homes and community-based health clinics are closing all across the country, including in rural America. And now Republicans are refusing to renew the Affordable Care Act tax credits for working class Americans, everyday Americans, and those who are struggling in this Trump economy where life has already become far too expensive. And so we believe that health care is a central issue. Republicans have said it's an extraneous issue. At the same time, in the Democratic proposal to continue funding, we've also indicated that we can't simply proceed as if this is business as usual.

5:39If we reach a bipartisan agreement, then we've got to make sure there are enforceability mechanisms to ensure that the agreement that was reached is actually kept and that the Trump administration follows the laws. There's going to be a lot of pain here, not just in the area of health care. We are hearing that the administration is preparing for mass permanent firings. Just want to remind everyone that Project 2025, the GOP blueprint for the second Trump presidency, was unabashed in its desire to remake the federal government, including proposing massive cuts to the federal workforce. An architect of Project 2025, Russ Vogt, is now the head of the White House Office of Management and Budget, and that's the group that's driving these planned firings.

6:21I'm going to play a tape of Speaker Johnson responding to questions about vote's role in all of this, as well as tape of what vote had to say before the election. Here it is. Russ does this reluctantly. We had a 45 minute telephone conference with him yesterday. He talked to all the House Republicans. He takes no pleasure in this. We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. We want to put them in trauma. Speaker, do you believe that Speaker Jeffrey is correct that this is not what Russ Vogt wanted to do? Or does it seem like maybe this shutdown was a convenient vehicle for stripping down the federal government and this is perhaps what they wanted all along?

7:04Well, Donald Trump and Republicans definitively wanted to shut down the government. For them, cruelty is the point. But as it relates to mass firings, we've seen them engage in mass firings from the very beginning of this administration. And so to the extent that they continue to proceed down this road in the context of the government shutdown, they'll simply use it as a pretense. But this is what they've wanted to do all along. But the American people are paying close attention. They know that Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the presidency. They've shut this government down. Democrats are very clear.

7:39We want to reopen it. We stand by hardworking federal civil servants. We want to find a bipartisan path forward, but it's got to be an agreement that actually meets the needs of the American people in terms of their health, their safety, and their economic well-being in an environment where the Trump economy is increasing costs on everyday Americans by thousands of dollars a year. And now, because of their refusal to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits, More than 20 million Americans are about to experience dramatically increased premiums, co-pays and deductibles. That's unacceptable in the wealthiest country in the history of the world.

8:16I'm glad you mentioned that the Republicans not only control the White House, but both chambers of Congress. And that puts Donald Trump wide at the center of all of this. Earlier this week, your colleague, Congresswoman Madeline Dean, confronted Speaker Johnson about the president. Take a listen. The president is unhinged. He is unwell. A lot of folks on your side are, too. I don't control. Oh, my God, please. That performance in front of the generals, that is so dangerous. You know I serve on foreign affairs and appropriations. This is a collision of those two things. Our allies are looking elsewhere.

8:52Our enemies are laughing. I just left the speaker's summit. You have a president who is unwell. Notably, Speaker Johnson doesn't actually deny the idea that President Trump is unwell. What do you make of that? Well, the speaker was clearly uncomfortable by that conversation, and Representative Dean always speaks truth to power. And here's the reality. We had a White House meeting. Subsequent to that meeting, the behavior that we've seen from Donald Trump has been unhinged and out of control and clearly unserious at a moment when we should be actually conducting ourselves in a way to try to find a path forward.

9:32But their behavior demonstrates the fact that they wanted to shut this government down. They thought they could break the will of House and Senate Democrats. That's not happening. And it's not happening because we're standing up for everyday Americans. Cancel the cuts, lower the costs, save health care. In terms of who will be impacted most by this, Politico is reporting, quote, that these cuts will impact 16 states, including New York, all of which voted for former Vice President Kamala Harris. Russ Vogt has not publicly announced cuts that would affect a state that backed Trump in 2024. Leader Jeffries, is the pain of this shutdown going to be disproportionately borne by those in blue states?

10:17Is that the point of all of this? I don't think that, in fact, is the case. And what we've actually seen throughout this Trump administration is that the pain that they've inflicted on the American people, the chaos, the extremism that has been unleashed on the American people is impacting everyone. Their one big ugly bill, which every single Democrat in the House and the Senate opposed, largest cut to Medicaid in American history. They ripped food down the mouths of children, seniors, and veterans. And all of this was done so they could provide massive permanent tax breaks to their billionaire donors, to the wealthy, the well-off, and the well-connected, to subsidize the lifestyles of the rich and shameless.

10:55And they did it at the expense of working class Americans in blue states, in red states and in purple states. And the pain that they will try to inflict on the American people in the context of this Trump Republican shutdown will impact everyone. Right. Before we let you go, Leader Jeffries, the Times is reporting that Trump has, quote, determined that we are in a war against drug cartels. And as you know, only Congress has the power to declare war. Are there any conversations ongoing among your colleagues about the extrajudicial killings that this administration has recently carried out in international waters and this new claim to war powers?

11:34Yes, and those conversations are being led by Greg Meeks, the top Democrat on foreign affairs, Adam Smith, the top Democrat on armed services, and Jim Himes, the top Democrat on the Intel Committee, all of whom will continue to speak out forcefully and aggressively in defense of the Article I power as the only branch of government that can declare war. I support those efforts entirely and pushing back against, you know, another instance of executive overreach. And unfortunately, what we see from our House Republican colleagues is that they continue to behave as nothing more than a rubber stamp for Donald Trump's extreme agenda.

12:12All right. Leader Jeffries, thank you so much for kicking us off tonight. Thank you. All right. Coming up, a member of Trump's cabinet goes off script, way off script when it comes to Jeffrey Epstein. I say to him, massage table in the middle of your house? How often do you have a massage? And he says, every day. And then he gets weirdly close to me. And he says, and the right kind of massage.

12:46Plus, I'll talk to a top Democratic lawmaker in Memphis, Tennessee, about Stephen Miller's new threats to unleash federal agents there. I see the guns and bats in this room. You are unleashed. The handcuffs that you're carrying, they're not on you anymore. But first, Andrew Weissman on what the law has to say about Donald Trump's extraordinary claim of new war powers. We're back in just 90 seconds.

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14:06Donald Trump is now trying to turn the so-called war on drugs into a real war. The New York Times now with bombshell new reporting on an administration memorandum that has reportedly been circulated to some members of Congress in which the president claims war powers that justify his recent strikes on Venezuelan boats. Those strikes killed all of passengers on board. The Times reports that, quote, Trump has decided that the United States is engaged in a formal armed conflict with drug cartels and that suspected smugglers for such groups are unlawful combatants. Legal experts, however, warn that Trump is claiming, quote, extraordinary wartime powers to kill so-called enemies even when they pose no threat, detain them indefinitely, and prosecute them in military courts.

14:57The Trump memo harkens back to a widely criticized aspect of the Bush-era war on terror. That time, unlawful combatants were kept at places like Abu Ghraib and secret CIA black sites. So far, the Trump administration has presented little evidence that the targeted bolts were linked to drug cartels. The Times interviewed, quote, one woman who identified herself as the wife of one of the dead men. She said that her husband was a fisherman with four children who left one day for work and never came back. Trump's new claim to war powers comes just days after he told generals to attack the, quote-unquote, enemy within and to consider American cities as training grounds for the U.S.

15:44military. Joining me now to discuss all of this is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel, Mueller probe prosecutor, and an MSNBC legal analyst. Andrew, let's break all of this down. What is your reaction to this extraordinary claim of war powers to justify these recent attacks? You know, this really goes to the segment that you just had with Hakeem Jeffries, where there was a discussion of the president being unhinged. It is very, very hard to square sort of what the president is claiming with reality. So just for basics, you can't just go ahead and shoot a drug dealer, even if you know they're a drug dealer, if they were in the United States.

16:33There is something called due process. They're entitled to a trial. You would normally not be imposing the death penalty, but if you were, there would be lots and lots of process. So the issue is, is there some exception? Is there some war power that enables the administration to do what they're doing here, where you would not normally just be able to shoot somebody without due process? And you have none of the attributes. You don't have a declared war. You don't have an imminent threat. You don't have an armed conflict. None of the things that you look to to justify the United States taking action.

17:12And you can't even compare it to as the description of the controversial steps with respect to ISIS. That is one where there was a way to say that was part of the declared war. That was one of the things that Congress had agreed to in something called the AUMF. The authorization for the use of military force. Exactly. And so there we were attacked. So there is a concern about self-defense. None of those attributes are here. And this is where I think the administration is really just banking on the fact that people just don't like drug dealers and thinking who cares about due process. That is what it means to be a nation of laws.

17:53Well, so can I interrupt you for a minute, Andrew? Some of this feels incredibly familiar. So earlier this year, we had the administration invoking the 1798 law, the Alien Enemies Act, for the purpose of declaring, quote unquote, members of Tren de Aragua, a Venezuelan gang, as enemy combatants here within the United States to render them deportable. It's a similar and very familiar kind of move, like this idea that we are constantly at war and that there are enemies here in the United States, unlawful combatants that justify extraordinary steps that otherwise would be lawless in ordinary times.

18:32Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. And your point that this is now coming onshore, that it's terrible when it's happening overseas, but it is also one where you're seeing the line blurred between war powers and normal domestic law enforcement, which has to obey the Constitution being ignored here internally. Either way, it is bad. Either way, you're seeing this effort to basically get rid of the rule of law as long as you can label somebody bad. In the same way the TDA was labeled as, you know, this is a violent gang. One of the things that even very conservative jurists pointed out was, you know what, those people are entitled to say, you know what, you have to prove it.

19:20You have to prove that the person is part of the TDA. And in fact, when the administration has had to do that, there are courts that have said, you know what, you don't even have the proof here. So you haven't even been able to show that you have identified a person who is in the group that should be treated this way. And the Times has laid out some of the failures of proof here. So the Times says, quote, police arrest suspected drug dealers, and it would be a crime to instead summarily gun them down. But in an armed conflict, it's lawful to kill combatants for the opposing force on site. Is that what this administration is doing, essentially getting rid of all of the rules of the road in order to justify murder?

20:02And as you say, this is something that they are doing offshore, but there are also ways in which it might be coming onshore. this abandonment of established norms. Yeah, and this is where it really comes down to an area that you are such an expert in, which is that the courts generally have this deference to fact-finding and to the sort of protection of the country from foreign threats, including foreign gangs, foreign countries. And so what is really going to be a challenge to judges is sort of deferring to the administration's fact-finding when it's so clear that this is black and white. And they're going to say that white is black when it isn't.

20:48And so the question is going to really be for the courts, how much are they going to say, you know what, that is not a good faith determination When you are saying, for instance, what's happening in dropping bombs on Venezuelan boats, that there is no armed conflict. There is no imminence. There is no self-defense. None of the things that would justify that. And it's going to be even more salient when it comes onshore. And we're talking about attacks that are happening in Los Angeles, Portland, Chicago. And you have this sort of this quote from Stephen Miller about unleashing law enforcement. You know, what is a leash in this country?

21:28The Constitution of the United States. That is something that you have to adhere to. There's no unleashing and getting around that just by saying black is white. Well, you've already alluded to this, but I'm going to invite you to say a little bit more. Yesterday, Trump told the generals that they were authorized to, quote unquote, handle the enemy within. And now he's claiming these powers against enemies abroad. What's the link here? How do we bring all of this together? Well, I do think that, I mean, I think when I think about this, I really think about it as an eradication of the rule of law And a very cynical view that Americans, this sort of political view that they will think, you know what, as long as I want to get rid of immigrants that are vilified as being, you know, rapists and murderers, and as long as I'm going after drug dealers, that it's okay to have these kinds of violations.

22:27And I think by the same token, as The New York Times has pointed out, are Democrats going to be reluctant to criticize this on the theory that they'll look weak on crime? And as somebody who's been in law enforcement for over 20 years, you know what? You can be really strong on crime and you can want to prosecute it and you can also obey the law when you do it. All right, Andrew, don't go anywhere. Sit tight. We'll see you back in just a few minutes. Up ahead, Trump's crackdown on American cities is escalating with more National Guard deployments. Also, Trump advisor Stephen Miller is under fire for what critics call his, quote, unhinged message to officers.

23:10But first, a Trump cabinet member goes off script, fueling the push to release the Epstein files. I'll play what he said next.

23:22A morning walk, some bird watching. It's another easy Sunday. UnitedHealth Group makes these ordinary days possible with partners like the University of Tennessee Health Sciences helping communities manage their health closer to home. 54 % of participants have lowered their blood pressure, meaning fewer heart attacks and more Sundays at the park. This might feel like an ordinary day. To UnitedHealth Group, it's the healthcare system working better for everyone. Learn more at unitedhealthgroup.com slash commitment. Ever since I was young, I've watched people working hard, chasing opportunity, making sacrifices, doing everything they can to build a better life.

24:00And now we're shining a light on what matters most. Our economy, our national identity, our democracy, our future. The stakes have never been higher. It's all On The Line. On The Line with Alicia Menendez. Weekdays at 12 p.m. Eastern on MS Now.

24:26New revelations undercutting Trump and his administration's claims about the Epstein files are raising fresh concerns that someone is lying. And surprisingly, this new information is coming from inside the administration, courtesy of Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. Going off script, Lutnick is making new claims about how Jeffrey Epstein made his money. This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever. Blackmailed people. That's how he had money. That is literally the complete opposite of what Trump's DOJ claimed in their now infamous July memo, which said, quote, There was also no credible evidence found that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals as part of his actions, end quote.

25:13Now, this leaves you with more questions than answers. You're not alone. Lutnick also divulged more about his first meeting with Epstein. Listen to his firsthand account. He gives me a tour in the living room, big living room. And then across from it is double doors. I assume it's the dining room. Yeah. And he opens the doors and there's a massage table in the middle of the room. Ooh. And candles all around and stuff. So I ask very insightful, cutting questions. I say to him, massage table in the middle of your house? How often do you have a massage? And he says, every day. And then he gets weirdly close to me.

25:58And he says, and the right kind of massage. Now my wife is standing here. So she looks at me and I look at her. And we say, I'm sorry. We have to go. That's what his M.O. was, you know, get a massage, get a massage. And what happened in that massage room, I assume, was on video. And in that light, there are new questions about Epstein's 2008 sweetheart plea deal with then U.S. attorney Alex Acosta, who later served as Trump's first term labor secretary. I assume way back when they traded those videos in exchange for him getting that 18 month set. I mean, he's a serial sex offender. How could he get 18 months and be able to go to his office during the day and have visitors and stuff?