Legal Experts Questioning New Trump DOJ Move on Epstein Material

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0:50Jason Johnson:Welcome to The Beat. I'm Jason Johnson and for Ari Melber. We begin with the Trump White House getting skewered on the Epstein scandal. Today, a new filing from Trump's beleaguered DOJ that is already giving rise to suspicion and criticism. Plus, new legal action from a leading watchdog group and yet another warning from a Trump ally about the political peril of the current scandal. As New Republic reports today on Epstein, even MAGA World can smell that Trump is hiding something. In a new filing this afternoon, the Department of Justice pushing forward on request to unseal grand jury material.

1:27Jason Johnson:But legal observers say it looks like theater and a barely concealed attempt to appear interested in transparency while pursuing information most experts believe won't contain any new revelations. regulations. New details today on Trump's desperate attempt to quell political blowback. The White House reportedly, quote, asking podcaster Joe Rogan to help ease the uproar over the Epstein files. Look, Rogan has been a vocal critic of the administration's handling of the Epstein files. The other problem for Trump concerns Epstein accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell. Trump has dangled a pardon for her, which critics say looks like a blatant attempt to elicit friendly testimony from her.

2:07Jason Johnson:Today, Trump's former press secretary, Sean Spicer, warns all of this could backfire spectacularly. What do you think the reaction would be about Trump pardoned Maxwell? I actually think about this differently. I would say he would be under the impression that he was going to be able to say that they got something from her further information. I think if anyone who sells him on this is lying to him. My point, and that's why you're like, what is his reaction going to be? I think this is very akin to Comey, right? When he fired Comey, he was told, oh, if you fire Comey, everyone's going to cheer you on.

2:44And he missed the, like, I think people misled him on what was, how that was going to go down. I think this is similar. There will be outrage like never before if he gets a deal.

2:58Jason Johnson:Also, the government transparency group Democracy Forward filing a new lawsuit to force the administration to release the Epstein files. The head of the group saying, quote, President Trump has repeatedly said he would release the Epstein files. His spokesperson claims his administration is the most transparent in history, and yet they continue to hide from the American people. The only thing transparent about the Trump Vance administration is how clearly they continue to disregard our nation's laws. Joining me now to discuss is Ambassador Norm Eisen, executive chair of the Democracy Defenders Fund, co-founder of the contrarian and former Obama ethics czar.

3:38Jason Johnson:His group is suing the administration for Epstein information. Also with us is Tara Setmeyer, co-founder and CEO of the Seneca Project, author of Uncompromised on Substack and former GOP communications director. So, Norm, I'll start with you. What are you hoping to get out of suing the DOJ in this administration for the Epstein files? Are you hoping to sort of highlight how non-transparent they are, highlight how they're obstructing justice, highlight how they are probably hiding something or somebody? Or do you actually think that they will release the information in any shape or form that we can actually understand or see as the public?

4:19Jason, we filed the very first of what are now 11 FOIA requests against the administration. And there have been a series of steps since with some proceeding in court. so far what we've seen are litigation over demands for faster treatment. First out of the box, we expect that we will file the very first action demanding the file themselves. And why is that so important? Donald Trump appears in these files. They haven't produced the Trump Epstein information. And instead, they've taken a convicted felon, serious sex offenses involving minors, Ghislaine Maxwell. She was interviewed by Donald Trump's personal former criminal counsel, Todd Blanche.

5:20And then she's moved to a minimum security facility. It stinks of a cover up, Jason. And so what we're trying to get at is what happened, including Trump Epstein filed, including Ghislaine Maxwell and who was involved in the administration. The American people deserve to know. And frankly, victims are outraged about this movement of Maxwell. They need to know as well.

5:49Jason Johnson:So, Tara, I want to go to the comms part about this first. So we have reports now that the White House is trying to beg Joe Rogan to go out and play defense for them on this particular issue. And I tend to be skeptical of that. I mean, first and foremost, I think it's ridiculous that the White House, with all of their apparatus and equipment, are going to a podcaster. But second, I don't think it's very likely that you're going to be able to convince any members of the Magosphere or the Manosphere or anybody else who cares about this to change their mind. I mean, do you think that's likely? Do you think that that the administration could put pressure on people who have staked their reputations on the importance of these files to somehow flip the script in order to make Trump and Vance happy?

6:29Well, I think you've lost the plot when you have to go to Joe Rogan's podcast to explain the White House's position on the Epstein files and why they've given preferential treatment to a convicted child sex predator. They're in a bad way. And frankly, they violated every rule of crisis communications from day one about how to handle this situation. situation. They've mishandled it for weeks, which is why we're still here. The simple solution here is to release the damn files. If you have nothing to hide, you release the files. They were awfully gung-ho about this until they actually saw what was in the files, I'm assuming, very early on in the administration.

7:10They campaigned, many of them campaigned on it. Many in the podcaster, right-wing podcaster, grifter world made their millions and fortunes on pushing conspiracy theories around this and other things. Some of them got cushy positions in the administration, like the FBI director and deputy FBI director. So this is a huge problem for them in a number of areas. And they can't expect to expect people who have been focused on this for years to all of a sudden just believe the BS they're feeding them. That's the problem. And Joe Rogan, I mean, to his credit, was skeptical of this and why they've mishandled this and said, like, this isn't making sense.

7:50What's the problem here? I don't think sending Donald Trump's former personal attorney, now DOJ official who interviewed Ghislaine Maxwell and gave her some, you know, sweetheart immunity and moved her to a cushy club fed is going to convince the Joe Rogans of the world that now, all of a sudden, everything's kosher. This is a failed strategy because they're full of crap. They're BSing people and the MAGA's are understanding that. And you have now the victims and the survivors who are coming out speaking more about their stories, which is another PR nightmare for the White House, because now they have agency and they're telling their horrific stories of what they went through.

8:29And it doesn't look good for the White House when they still are concealing the files. For what?

8:35Jason Johnson:Norm, so since you're, again, in the process of trying to get these files public, this is the question that I have. This is a regular man or woman on the street question. So the files come out and we get a chance to read them. Even if the files detail terrible behavior on the part of anybody in the administration, whether it's the president or anybody else connected one way or another, what happens next? I mean, you know, because I think the concern a lot of people have and the reason that you might get some shoulder shrugs from people who aren't heavily invested is even if this information comes forward, unless there is the immediate threat of prosecution for what we find out in these Epstein files, it seems like a tempest in a teapot.

9:16Jason Johnson:So what do you say to people who have that concern? Even if this comes out, if nobody's held accountable, what difference does it make? Well, it depends on what we see in those files. For example, if there is evidence we demanded all the information about the decision to transfer Ghislaine Maxwell, if there is evidence that the administration is engaging in a cover up at the expense of these victims, my goodness, that is explosive information. So there is much more to it. The country, frankly, has the right to know about Trump and Epstein as well and all of the other details. Tara, I want to play you some sound from a town hall in Nebraska.

10:04Jason Johnson:Representative Flood faces serious boos over Epstein. I want to get your response on the other side. Why are you covering up the Epstein files?

10:20Jason Johnson:So, Tara, my question is simply this. If people are this upset, that's fine. It is August of 2025. Do you think this actually has any impact by next year? Because that's the other thing. As angry as some Republican and MAGA voters say they are, if their votes don't change next year, does this matter? Well, I think that's the question here is how long can the outrage on this go for? And I think the White House is counting on running out the clock on this. However, if the strategy to keep this, well, first of all, if they keep making mistakes like this, the White House in prolonging the story, it's just going to elongate this.

10:57I mean, what Norm is doing and what his organization is doing, there will be others that, you know, the survivors are coming out now and starting to kind of go back to what are their options? Are they going to sue for things? They keep telling their story. So it could it could extend the life, the life of this for several months. And I think also what it does is it gives Democrats an opportunity. And even my organization, the Seneca Project, we're a content organization. So we put out ads, we put out content to inform people of what's going on, to hold Trump accountable and to explain to people what's at stake.

11:29And this is just another part of the pattern of how Donald Trump is a liar. He's betraying people, including his own people. And we have an ad out now called Cheater that's going to play right in Bedminster this weekend, talking about how Donald Trump has cheated in every aspect of his life, including cheating the American people on this and on the bill, on the budget bill, etc. So there's ways to weave this in to the overarching theme of what Donald Trump's presidency has represented, how it hurts the American people. And Democrats have an opportunity going into the midterms to consistently talk about that.

12:03And then that can depress the MAGA vote. Even Steve Bannon said if one, two percent of the MAGAs, even five, stay home, They're in big trouble for the midterms, which is why Donald Trump and the MAGAs are trying to cheat the American people and voters by changing the districts in places like Texas and others. They know they're they're in trouble with this.

12:23Jason Johnson:Tara, Tara Setmeyer, Norm Eisen, thank you so much for starting us off on an explosive story tonight on The Beat. Thank you. Later in the show, I talk live to a Texas Democrat thwarting MAGA's gerrymandering power grab, defying new threats of fines and arrests. Also tonight, fired FBI agents speak out about Trump's dangerous partisan purge of the agency. Their lawyer will be here to tell us the story. But first, Epstein survivors accused the Trump DOJ of, quote, a cover up. Civil rights attorney Nancy Erica Smith is next. We're back in 90 seconds on The Beat.

13:05Jason Johnson:New tonight, Epstein survivors accusing the Trump administration of bearing their voices. In letters from their lawyers, several survivors are slamming the Trump Department of Justice's actions, saying it, quote, smacks of a cover-up. And they're calling out the administration for a lack of consideration for the victims. They say they feel like, quote, at best, an afterthought. One survivor taking on Trump directly. Annie Farmer labeled Trump's claim that this is a Democratic hoax is, quote, offensive. Another survivor, Jess Michaels, spoke out on the beat just last night, condemning the White House.

13:44I have not heard the words Epstein survivor out of the White House ever. It's not just that they're ignoring survivors when they're having meetings, when they're discussing, when they're talking with a convicted pedophile sex trafficker. I'm really shocked and not that this woman has been able to weasel her way into getting, working towards a pardon, working towards leniency.

14:19Jason Johnson:Just Michael's referring to the special treatment for Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. She was moved to a minimum security prison after speaking with Trump's DOJ. Joining me now to discuss is Nancy Erica Smith, a prominent civil rights attorney. She represented former Fox-anger Gretchen Carlson in her bomb cell shoot against Fox News, and she is currently representing Newark Mayor Ross Baraka, who is suing interim U.S. Attorney Elena Haba over his arrest while he attempted to inspect an ICE detention facility. Thank you so much for joining us this evening, Nancy. I'm going to start with this.

14:54Jason Johnson:And this is something that has deeply bothered me. And I think a lot of people who care about this story. It's the idea that these were children, not young women, not teens. They were children. And the absolute lack of empathy that we have seen from this administration at any level. So just as somebody who is representing these victims, what kind of conversations are you having with them and their families about the fact that they're either being ignored or they're being treated with a wink and a nod when in fact they were babies and children when many of these assaults and this abuse happened?

15:30It's devastating. We know that the long-term effects of abuse of children are devastating for life for many of these victims and survivors. So it's awful. And it doesn't just even affect the Epstein victims. It affects all victims of pedophilia and sex abuse and the kind of rape and sexual predation that we've seen with Epstein and Maxwell. and the many, many people who participated, enabled and knew about it. So the survivors right now are in a crisis, many of them, not just the Epstein survivors, because they're being treated like they don't matter. It's a game. I feel like we're in a game. Trump is playing a game.

16:17His administration is going along with the game. They created this conspiracy theory of Democrats are pedophiles and there's a pizza shop and Hillary Clinton's involved. And people went down that rabbit hole and they were talking about themselves. They were talking about their friends. Our current attorney general, Pam Bondi, gave Epstein the original sweetheart deal in Florida. And now they're continuing to play games. How could you have a sexual predator for decades like Maxwell go to a club fed after meeting with Trump's lawyer. It's outrageous and it's very harmful and it's harmful to all survivors and victims.

16:58Jason Johnson:I want to play you some sound from Jess Michaels on the beat last night as she talks about what this is like for survivors and what the impact is and gets your thoughts on the other side. This is a very personal, painful, both physically, emotionally, mentally, intellectually painful experience to go through, to see the level of injustice. The victims did the right thing. They went to authorities. They've done all the right things. They have told their story over and over and over again, and no one is listening. I believe what we're seeing is a normalization of the decriminalization of sexual harm.

17:42Jason Johnson:I think this is so key. We have a president in the White House who was caught on tape bragging about sexual assault. We have a head of secretary of defense. We have we have multiple people in this administration who have been accused, not necessarily convicted, but accused of various forms of sexual abuse and inappropriate behavior for women when you're talking to victims and when victims come to you seeking your support. How do you talk to them? Because they've been taught this has been normalized. They've been taught, well, this is what happens or that's one of the consequences. How do you convince them that their stories as victims deserve to be told and that they deserve justice despite the normalization of sexual abuse in America?

18:24Well, it's very hard with this Department of Justice because this Department of Justice isn't about justice for victims. It's very hard with this administration because Donald Trump has been convicted by a jury of sex abuse that the judge said is called rape. So we have an elected rapist in the White House. We have someone, as you said, who bragged about you can grab women by the genitals even if they don't want you to. We have him bragging about going into his Miss Teen Universe pageant while young girls are dressing and undressing. These are all on the record. This is a man who was elected by MAGA.

19:03So it's been normalized already. He was elected in the beginning. You know, he was already elected once. So now we've reelected a man after he's convicted, after he's found guilty, after we have a zillion pictures of him with Epstein. We have Epstein's brother saying Epstein talked about him all the time. We have them club fed for a convicted pedophile for decades with innumerable victims. It is normalized. So I don't say I don't even trust if the DOJ, if it if the file ever gets released, I have no faith that it will be intact and have, you know, we've all heard the the leaks that the DOJ is busy redacting Trump's name and fixing up the files.

19:56I mean, this is a corrupt administration. I have incredible fear that, you know, we're going to even if we win the release of the files, it's going to be a lot of nothing.

20:06Jason Johnson:Have a liberate. Yeah, yeah. Nancy Erica Smith, thank you so much, sincerely, for the work you're doing, not just for these victims, for victims across America. Thank you. Thank you. Later in the show, a special guest on how colleges are planning to defend students from Trump, Marco Rubio and ICE raids this fall. Also tonight, Pelosi, Newsom and Texas Democrats are throwing down the gauntlet of the GOP's gerrymandering power grab. I talked live to a Texas Democrat about that. But first, fired FBI agents are suing the Trump administration. Their lawyer joins me next on The Beat. Most ice cream is good, but not Jenny's.

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22:14Jason Johnson:Some ex-FBI agents are warning Trump's retribution tour is escalating and damaging the agency. This week, at least two top FBI officials have been ousted, including senior official Brian Driscoll, who previously served as acting FBI director. Earlier this year, he refused to turn over a list of agents who worked on January 6th cases. Driscoll says he received no explanation for his firing. It's an obvious pattern. Just days ago, a federal agency launching a probe into former special counsel Jack Smith after a hard-right GOP senator complained about Smith. Political calling it, quote, a thinly veiled political stunt aimed at placating the president.

22:55Jason Johnson:Today, we learn the DOJ is opening a grand jury probe into New York Attorney General Tish James over whether she violated Trump's civil rights and her case against the Trump Organization. Remember, both Attorney General Pam Bondi and FBI Director Cash Patel testified that there was no enemies list. There will never be an enemies list within the Department of Justice. It's been referred to as an enemies list. You've called them deep state. It's not an enemy's list. That is a total mischaracterization. The FBI Agents Association condemning the recent firings, quote, agents are not given the option to pick and choose their cases.