NYT: Epstein Turmoil Drove WH "Freakout"

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0:38Mail and ship when you want, how you want with Stamps.com. Print postage on demand 24-7 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90 % with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust Stamps.com. Go to Stamps.com and use code PODCAST to try Stamps.com risk-free for 60 days. Welcome to The Beat. I'm Ari Melber. We are continuing covering that breaking news out of the Middle East. The United States launching another round of strikes against Iran. This is just during the last hour, CENTCOM, indicating that they were additional self-defense strikes against multiple targets in Iran at the commander-in-chief's direction.

1:17They also indicated that the strikes are, quote, in response to what they call Iran's unwarranted continued aggression. We have a lot more coming up on multiple topics. But what's important about this new story is Defense Secretary Hegseth has said the U.S. would basically be negotiating with bombs. Now, later this hour, we're actually going to follow on this story and the discussion of how the administration is approaching this ceasefire and war situation with one of the top lawmakers involved in all of this, the number one Democrat in the House, leader Hakeem Jeffries. So that's a big guest who will cover this and a lot of domestic topics as well.

1:52But we begin with what many are calling a bombshell investigative report out of the New York Times detailing the long running issues in the Epstein scandal, which caused an internal freak out at the Trump White House. This reporting is actually through the process that we've sometimes seen before, where journalists who work at an outlet on a daily sort of beat also work on longer form projects and books. And so the reporting is, we should mention, part of an upcoming book by several of the top sort of Trump White House reporters and D.C. reporters on the beat. And they, in this process, actually say they spoke to over a thousand sources.

2:28So this is more than even just one or two big articles. This is drawing off of all of that. And it reports how the Trump White House officials and administration looked at the Epstein scandal as so serious. The top officials, let's take this for the viewers in full so they can read it. top officials were gathering in the White House Situation Room. That is, of course, the secure bunker where classified high-stakes national security matters are discussed. For contrast, it's not a place where you deal with political domestic spin. It's where this historic moment occurred, where President Obama and Vice President Biden were tracking, along with the national security team, the ongoing operation to take out and kill Osama Bin Laden.

3:09That was 2011. That's the Situation Room, at least when used by presidents who take it seriously. The Times knowing the Trump officials used it to try to gain measure of control over a very different kind of crisis threatening to engulf the presidency. They continue to use the situation for those discussions. The Times reports that by summer 25, the Situation Room itself had become basically inseparable from the Epstein crisis. This is more than a matter of staging. It sort of tells you about the use, abuse, and misplaced priorities, according to critics, of how they dealt with the Epstein crisis.

3:48Trump's vice president was the most vocal about releasing the Epstein files, reportedly arguing that even unsubstantiated allegations and anecdotes about Trump should go out. This is interesting because it takes you inside what was this rolling process, The Times reported that if the administration published them first, it would demonstrate good faith. It would take the oxygen out of the conspiracy theories, they thought. Now, that tidbit could be significant, considering how Trump's top DOJ official was flip-flopping over the file's release. Bondi was saying this a month after taking office. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients?

4:27Will that really happen? It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. Bondi had infamously asserted falsely that she had the client list on her desk. That was quickly undercut by the facts. And then the DOJ, under her, this was a Bondi-DOJ memo, had to admit there was no client list. They didn't uncover evidence, they said, for an investigation against any uncharged third parties. That, by the way, remains controversial as the House continues to hear witnesses who think there are people, including powerful men, that maybe should be charged.

5:03And then, as you see here, they claim there was no further disclosure of the Epstein files that would be appropriate, which stoked outrage, disbelief and anger from many, from survivors to independent legal experts to, of course, the people Trump had promised would get the files, the MAGA base.

5:24How come you redact some people and you don't redact other people? Like, what is this? This is not good. None of this is good for this administration. It looks terrible. It's the way they've handled the scandal has been so bad. Completely agree. This is self-inflicted. Current DOJ under Pan Bondi is covering up crimes, very serious crimes. It looks terrible. It looks terrible for Trump when he was saying that none of this was real. This is all a hoax. This is not a hoax. There is something there, and it's being covered up, and the president blessed it. That's just from some of the people who've been historically aligned and friendly to Trump on this, to say nothing of survivors, independent experts, and others.

6:08And so this Times report drops today at a period where Trump has again failed to stem the interest in Congress, including congressional Republicans. We continue to hear from witnesses yesterday and today. What you're looking at on your screen is from that same time period because this was lying to your own people. Those binders have nothing important in them, but they were labeled Epstein files. Trump lying to his base and feeding an awareness on the right that he was part of the cover-up. The person who promised the transparency was actually misusing the government to keep the secrets of the pedophiles and lying to his very base.

6:51administration feeding information to those conservative personalities thinking that it might work. According to the Times, again, this new account, Bondi and that approach, which clearly wasn't working by any measure, not for policy transparency and not for politically stemming the crisis, was infuriating the number two at the FBI, Dan Bongino, who had actually wrote this issue on his podcast sort of to his national acclaim. And so the new report today as Bongino was erupting at Bondi during one meeting, yelling at her, you blanked this thing up from the start. The way you've been talking about this, that dumb blanking charade with the Epstein files, the there-on-my-desk nonsense, all the promises to the folks out there.

7:36I'm reading from a new account. The Times does not publish something like that in quotes unless they really think they have it. Now, maybe Bongino was happy to confirm it because he has ever since then tried to tell his supporters and others the problem was the White House and Bondi, not him. But whatever the reasoning of these sources, this is a very serious report about the level of meltdown and rancor over the Epstein secrecy. Now, fast forward to today, Bongino's out. He was, according to the article, thinking about trying to leave that day, but stayed on to be helpful to Trump. Bondi, of course, is out partly over this Epstein problem.

8:15Bongino, of course, has gone back to where he makes more money and maybe finds a better life schedule. On his show, he said this about the files. I want to see the files, folks. I said, don't let it go. I meant it. We got elected. We looked at it. The file was not what was in there was not what we thought would be in there. It's not going to satisfy many. And that's fine. But folks, I'm not going to spend the next two years talking about it. This administration got you the information. You're not going to spend the next couple years talking about it. You just spent the last couple years talking about it.

8:49I'm only smiling at the political convenience of it, not, of course, the underlying seriousness. But that's the question. Who really cares about the seriousness of the issue and who just tried to use and abuse it? A White House spokesperson telling the Times Trump's claims that he was innocent in Epstein matters, that that's long been the case, that they've always said that. President Trump, they say, has done more for Epstein's victims than anyone before him. Fact check, false. Now, I will tell you that prior administrations in both parties also failed transparency in the victims. That's according to what we've learned in our reporting, and we've heard many victims and their advocates say that.

9:29So if you're looking at this from a party standpoint, both parties have overseen DOJ and FBI during periods that have failed the victims. But the upside-down claim that this one was better is completely false and something that kind of a lot of people agree on. I mean, I just showed you. Rogan, Tucker, Megan, survivors, experts. Nobody thinks they've done a good job on this. As for those in Trump's corner, the Times reports that by late summer, it was apparent to the president's aides that the Epstein saga was not the same as the countless other crises they'd weathered to their great surprise and disquiet, quote, Trump's old tricks of deflection and denial were not working.

10:12Didn't work then. Didn't work until today. And while Trump and Vance had hoped that when the stuff finally came out, even over Donald Trump's opposition, and when Congress made them release it, that by then it would be a bad news cycle and eventually go away. And yet here we are today discussing not only this exhaustive account from the Times. But the witnesses that have come forward yesterday, Epstein's longtime secretary, and today, Bill Gates, shows that Congress, even on a bipartisan basis, continues to pull the threads on this massive scandal. I want to bring in Michelle Goldberg, columnist for the New York Times, an MSNOW analyst who has written about this extensively, and Vicki Ward, a veteran journalist and author of the substack Vicki Ward investigates.

10:58Michelle, this is the news side of your paper with a lot of exhaustive details. What else jumped out to you? And what about that point that I landed on because I thought it was striking, the Times concluding from talking to this many people, that unlike other scandals, this one never went away and the lying did fail. Right. So and just to be clear, I mean, I'm on the opinion side. We're totally separate from the news side. But just so this is from what I've read. I mean, one of the things that jumped out to me is that they were actually talking about a pardon at one point for Jillian Maxwell. Right.

11:31I mean, I think that I'm not sure if that conversation itself happened in the situation room, but we've been wondering how she ended up in this relatively cushy prison that she was not supposed to be eligible for. It doesn't exactly give us answers, but they were talking about kind of offering her some sort of incentive to give an interview that would take the heat off Donald Trump. And sure enough, she gave an interview that meant to take the heat off Donald Trump with Todd Blanche. And now she's in a much better place. The other thing that struck me is that these were very meticulously reconstructed conversations among a very relatively small inner circle.

12:11And so they've all got to be looking at each other now thinking, who is, you know, who can I trust? Right. Like, who is going to repeat the details of this conversation? And, you know, I think that we can now see in retrospect to your last point that this was the beginning of a crack up in this coalition that is ongoing and that has been exacerbated by this debacle in Iran. Hmm. Vicki? Well, what stuck out to me was, to your last point, that the previous excerpt of Maggie and Jonathan's book also put J.D. Vance in a very good light. I mean, of everyone in the room, in this excerpt, J.D. Vance, I would argue, is the one coming out on the side of good.

13:01He's the one saying, we've got to release everything, no matter if it's false, we've got to put it all out there. Although I thought his idea of having Tucker Carlson interview Gilles Maxwell was particularly terrible. That was a striking detail in the story. And also a striking detail because is Tucker Carlson in a position to schedule either of these two parties? Right. Right? No, I mean, so wrong on all sorts of levels. I can't imagine that Glenn Maxwell's lawyers would have let us sit for that completely different. Although a lot of people would watch an interview like that. Yes, of course.

13:36But I still think, you know, aside from the sort of hilarious incompetence, If the stakes weren't so serious, I mean, it's sort of the incompetence of the scenes are staggering. The big question remains, what is the there there around Trump? Because the reality is that in the Epstein files, there isn't any real there there about Trump. None of the victims who I've talked about in 25 years of reporting this have ever pointed a finger at Donald Trump. And it seems... Well, let's be precise, because I understand the point you're making. In fairness, there is not evidence to suggest criminal misconduct, and he hasn't been accused of that.

14:19By the standards of any publicly traded company, or the accountability that others have faced, or the old days of campaigning, being this associated this closely with this figure, including in a period where there was a lot of reporting that he knew, and emails that Trump knew and they're on the plane is something that goes to a person's judgment. I think I take your point as a journalist, he's not accused of criminal misconduct, but a heck of a lot of politicians have had their careers ended over less than that. But I would also say, though, that compared to the other email chains that we've seen where people have had to step down from their jobs, you know, General Counsel of Goldman Sachs, chairman of a big law firm, that there's no email traffic between Trump and Epstein that sort of nails him as anything.

15:04That nails him criminally. Right. But spending a lot of time on the plane and other things. And then he denied that he'd ever been on the plane. Well, he has a reason to say, oh, I wasn't close with this person. I wasn't on the plane. And then evidence comes out in a manner that it never usually does. I've covered stories like this. You never see this amount of internal government evidence. I've never seen a law passed like this to release this much evidence. And it turns out, oh, you were lying about going on the plane. You were on the plane many times. And you were at the house. And you gave public quotes about how he likes very young women, which, again, I'm being very precise, does not mean that he's alleged of criminal conduct.

15:39But yes, other candidates have fallen for less. I want to give you time, as we say around here, to let you finish. But I did want to draw that contrast. And I think the one thing that gets lost is what Epstein, it would seem from the emails, thought Donald Trump's crimes were actually not sexual. He writes this long email to himself that he was going to send to Michael Wolff at the beginning of 2019. And he says, this is what it's all about. And he basically accuses Trump of money laundering, tax evasion. It's all to do with this property that Trump bought in Palm Beach. And Epstein clearly thought Trump didn't have the money.

16:19So where did the money come from? He then flips it a few years later for a lot of money to Russians. So he's accusing him of money laundering. These things have not been proven. But that, in Epstein's mind, was the gotcha for Donald Trump. Or the leverage. I mean, the problem with blackmail and embarrassing people is sometimes you're throwing stuff around to blackmail them, which is why most types of blackmail are basically illegal, which is separate from the veracity of the claim. I mentioned there's more threads being pulled on Congress, including Bill Gates testifying. Our panel stays. Michelle and Vicki are here.

16:53We'll be back in 90 seconds with more.

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18:17Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product, a mug, a card, a tote, a phone case, and make it personal. A photo, a name, an inside joke. The kind of gift that actually fits the person. That's what 30 million customers have been coming back to Zazzle for over 20 years to find. Right now, save 25 % on your first order at Zazzle.com. That's Zazzle.com. Make it z-amazing. The Epstein story has been roaring back in Washington. I'm here with Michelle and Vicky as we continue our conversation. Michelle, there has been this effort by the House Committee to continue to get witnesses, some of whom have spoken to the government in other capacity like DOJ, others who haven't.

19:02And so we're following that. Bill Gates is an individual who hasn't been accused of criminal conduct here in our standards. We talk about that distinction, but was in the files repeatedly and has had to deal with responses and questions about that. He went in for the first time today. We don't have, of course, the whole testimony. I just want to show viewers some of him coming in and what lawmakers said. I'm glad to be here voluntarily to testify to help with the committee's work. Do you regret a friendship with Dr. Epstein? Overall, I'm just a little disappointed that Mr. Gates is not as candid and forthcoming as he can be.

19:39He's a little combative. He admitted that he knew of Mr. Epstein's reputation. He admitted that he knew that he had been convicted of sexual crimes. But ultimately, in his words, he viewed this narrow relationship as being an acceptable means to access wealthy donors. Michelle, your view of this piece and what does it mean or matter that Congress continues to take testimony from a variety of witnesses? Well, I mean, I think, again, first that it's just not going away. Right. Then that, you know, they keep thinking that one more turn of the screw will be the last one. But also there's still, I mean, even with these millions of documents, there is still a lot that we don't know, particularly about the way that Jeffrey Epstein exercised his leverage over the people in his network, which is a question that pertains to this administration because several people in this administration, not least the president, but not only the president, were very much part of Jeffrey Epstein's network.

20:41Yeah, I mean, I was struck. Apparently Bill Gates told Congress today that what Jeffrey Epstein was trying to do was blackmail him. He had information about his illicit extramarital affairs and that that's what Jeffrey Epstein was sort of trying to use against him. and he wanted to stay in the orbit of Bill Gates when Bill Gates had sort of dumped him. And I don't know if you read, Ari, there was a very good piece in the Wall Street Journal about this woman, Melanie Walker, who was a protege of Epstein's, who between Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein, they sent out to date Prince Andrew, then to date Steve Sinosky, the number three at Microsoft, and then finally to date Bill Gates.

21:29And there are now texts and emails that show this was all at the direction of Jeffrey Epstein, which does raise questions. Why was he so desperate to get to Bill Gates? What was, you know, money was part of it. For sure, for sure. But the anger that he felt and the drive once I think they stopped talking to each other around 2014, 2015, to keep going to send a woman in. I mean, it's real desperation. Yeah, I mean, Michelle, I've read a lot more of the files than I ever thought 10 years ago. This is how I'd be spending all my time. And one of the things that comes through was that it seems that Mr.

22:14Epstein was aware that times were changing. And the way he got away with what he knew he had done wasn't working as well. And there was an almost at times frantic effort to ensnare and pull in more powerful people, which is a separate observation to the fact that there's some very bad things were already being done by various men. So that's also true. But then you saw him try to reach farther. You saw this with certain politicians that he didn't have a big history with. And he was trying to bring them in. And you get the feeling that he he really thought if he just had enough tentacles, maybe he would make it through his natural life.

22:47Right. And I think that he also thought that he could sort of just both like foment and take advantage of a backlash to me, too. Right. I mean, it was so funny to see funny is the wrong word. bitterly ironic to see Jeffrey Epstein, of all people, kind of bitterly complaining about Me Too has gone too far and commiserating with men like Lawrence Summers, the former president of Harvard. Right. But I think that he thought that he could maybe kind of position himself as just one of a litany of powerful men who've been railroaded by an out of control social justice movement. Yeah, right. And that he again, he was watching all of this and knew what the evidence was on him.

23:29It's really striking. As you said, the story's not going away. If Trump would rather, nobody was being called to account, let alone this, you know, some powerful billionaire that kind of shows that Congress can still make people testify and we can still try to get information. And that process goes forward. So Michelle and Vicky, on a big day on that on the Hill, I want to thank you both. Coming up, we have a very newsworthy guest. House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries is here only on the beat tonight. We are following, of course, those airstrikes. We will ask him, I think, about some of the other issues we've been discussing and Donald Trump's economic problems heading into the midterms.

24:03Don't miss it. That's next.

24:09We're following breaking news and getting ready to hear from the top Democrat in the House. The Iran war and ceasefire is tenuous. The United States launching new attacks on Iran. Now, Central Command stresses that they view these as self-defense. They began approximately at 5.15 p.m. Eastern, U.S. hitting five sites. This is near the Strait of Hormuz. We are following this. There is not a lot we know at this hour, but we're going to begin with a newsworthy guest who has been in Congress overseeing American foreign policy. New York Congressman Hakeem Jeffries is, of course, a Democratic minority leader.

24:41Thanks for joining me tonight. Great to be with you. What is your response to the news of these strikes and your view of what the United States should be doing in the U.S. interest to try to resolve this and for Americans trying to get gas prices back under control. Well, Donald Trump's reckless and costly war of choice has been a disaster for the American people. This has now gone on for more than 100 days. And as a direct result of this war, gas prices have gone up, food prices have gone up, and inflation has gone up. In Congress, we, of course, were able to successfully last week in the House pass a war powers resolution over the objection of both Donald Trump and Speaker Mike Johnson to end this reckless and costly war of choice in Iran.