In short
Special report on Senator Susan Collins and Maine’s Senate race, arguing Collins helped enable Trump’s Supreme Court nominees and later voted with Trump at very high rates; includes a broader segment on voting-rights enforcement, press-freedom fights over DOJ subpoenas of journalists, and Obama/Gladwell comments on democracy and voting rights.
Guest backgrounds
Eugene Robinson (Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist; long-time Washington Post reporter; MSNBC analyst). Michael McKean (actor/musician; stars in the play Are You Now or Have You Ever Been?).
Key claims
Collins campaigned as pro-choice/independent and vowed to oppose nominees hostile to Roe, but voted for Brett Kavanaugh (50th vote) after Kavanaugh was selected from pro-life lists; the episode links this to Roe’s reversal. It claims Collins’ GOP support rose from ~60–40 early to 85% in the Trump era and ~95% now, including on judicial nominees and impeachment votes. It also claims DOJ subpoenas of NYT journalists are abusive and rushed (within ~48 hours), meant to chill sources.
Notable examples
Collins’ Kavanaugh vote; Collins’ acquittal vote in Trump’s first impeachment; Collins’ ~58 disapproval rating; NYT subpoenas tied to a jet/security story; references to Nixon-era subpoena comparisons; McKean’s play using HUAC/McCarthy-era transcripts.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOAri Melber Introduces Top Stories
0:30 to 1:00
Ari Melber outlines the main topics for the episode, focusing on voting rights and political accountability.
“This is Stute calling about your overdue account balance.”
Democrats' Strategy in Maine
1:00 to 2:55
Discussion about the Democratic strategy in Maine following the resignation of a Senate nominee due to allegations.
“Our top story is my special report tonight on accountability for the MAGA enabler, Senator Susan Collins.”
Senator Susan Collins' Position
2:55 to 6:44
Ari Melber examines Senator Collins' claims about her pro-choice stance and her voting history regarding abortion rights.
“So for Maine voters, one of the key hurdles for electing any Republican senator has been Roe v.”
Kavanaugh's Confirmation Vote and Its Implications
6:44 to 9:06
Analysis of Collins' pivotal vote for Justice Kavanaugh and its consequences on abortion rights.
“And at the first judicial opportunity they got within about four years, Kavanaugh was crucial to that new MAGA majority, thanks to Susan Collins, gutting Roe v.”
Backlash Against Collins in Maine
9:06 to 12:00
Discussion on the public's reaction to Collins' vote and the rising disapproval rates among constituents.
“Then there was a flooding of a fund for her opponent that actually also did a different type of crashing.”
Examining Susan Collins' Senate Record
14:00 to 23:25
Explore the political evolution of Senator Susan Collins amid Trump's influence.
“I'm here to ask you to seek out a news source that does firsthand fact-based reporting.”
Examining Susan Collins' Senate Record
24:00 to 25:13
Explore the political evolution of Senator Susan Collins amid Trump's influence.
“you'd expect someone like me to ask you to buy something.”
Press Freedom and Trump's DOJ Subpoenas
25:23 to 28:00
Discuss the implications of Trump's DOJ subpoenas on press freedoms and free speech.
“Sounds like kind of a basic question, and yet we've seen law firms, corporations, and all kinds of groups just pack up and cave, at least in the beginning of Trump's second term.”
Examining Subpoenas and Press Freedom
28:00 to 33:51
Learn about the implications of recent subpoenas on journalistic freedom and First Amendment rights.
“have conversations with anybody at the White House or the Justice Department in Washington, D.C., before you issued those subpoenas?”
Barack Obama's Recent Commentary on Democracy
33:51 to 36:40
Discover Obama's insights on voting rights, white supremacy, and the current political landscape.
“You know him from so many of his great works.”
Show all 14 chapters
Reflections on McCarthyism and Modern Politics
36:40 to 42:00
Explore parallels between McCarthyism and today's political climate through historical context.
“Some very prescient warnings about modern McCarthyism and the lessons of how to fight back.”
Historical Reflections on Courage and Cowardice
42:00 to 43:33
Exploration of historical figures and their moral choices under pressure.
“I mean, in the case of Larry Parks, He was a guy who in the early 40s, he was very idealistic and he wanted to make the world a better place.”
Cult Classics and the Art of Documentary
43:33 to 45:05
Discussion on the evolution of a cult classic and the improvisational approach to filmmaking.
“It was, you know, the authorities said, you know, best leave it.”
Secrets to a Long Career in Hollywood
45:05 to 46:18
Insights on maintaining creativity and passion without succumbing to external pressures.
“is there a secret to having this great long career in Hollywood and beyond, which not everyone has?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Hey, take a breath. You've been moving all day. Scrolling, answering, planning. But for the next few seconds, you get quiet. Now imagine warm light. A place where your shoulders finally drop and you feel like a kid again. Never lose that feeling. Never lose your splash. Visit Lauderdale. This is Stute calling about your overdue account balance. You owe$9 ,000,$17.86. How would you like to pay? That was the sound of Stute, the AI coworker that collects your cash for you. Stute's collecting over$200 million a month for its customers autonomously. Got cash stuck in overdue invoices? Get Stute and start collecting in days.
0:53Go to stute.ai. That's S-T-U-U-T dot A-I today. I'm Ari Melber. Our top story is my special report tonight on accountability for the MAGA enabler, Senator Susan Collins. Later, I want you to know we have those new Obama comments going at Trump advance, plus the New York Times fighting back, taking the DOJ to court for what it calls abusive illegal subpoenas for journalists. But we begin with this major midterm news. Democrats replacing their Senate nominee in Maine after Graham Plattner dropped out over serious sexual assault allegations, which he denies. Now, Democrats need just four seats to take back the Senate.
1:33Maine is a top prospect because it's a Democratic state. Voters there backed Harris by seven points just last election. It went blue, if you check, in the last nine presidential races in a row. And yet this blue state has a Republican senator in Susan Collins. And she's won five elections there, largely by making the case that this is what she claims. She tells voters she's a centrist, that she believes in compromise and bipartisanship, that she's a proponent of women's health, often claiming, as I'll show you, that she will be a defender of abortion rights in the Senate. and, as you see, she says to this year, she is an independent voice.
2:15But these claims have been falling apart over time. So tonight, after the understandable attention on the Democratic ticket in that state, right now we turn to a special report on why Maine is such a focus in the first place. It's because of its vulnerable, embattled, and sometimes misleading incumbent senator. And the choice facing Maine voters is, as I just showed you with just a handful of states that matter, a place where their choice, if you're watching in Maine, your choice, could determine the control of the entire United States Senate in just a few short months. So for Maine voters, one of the key hurdles for electing any Republican senator has been Roe v.
3:01Wade, abortions rights, women's rights. Most voters there are pro-choice. But as we all know, you're watching the news, so you know Republicans have long demanded as a litmus test requirement, no negotiation, they will only put pro-life judges on the Supreme Court. And so Collins has spent years trying to tamp down what is a volcanic issue for her at home by vowing to oppose judges who are against Roe. She campaigned as a pro-choice candidate since her 1996 election. She said she supported Roe and she accepted donations from pro-abortion rights groups. Open Secrets has documented that. She also told voters that she was vowing to oppose any Supreme Court nominee who would overturn Roe v.
3:52Wade. That goes years back and she said it over and over. That was the main thing her constituents saw as the problem with having a Republican senator. I would not support a nominee who demonstrated hostility to Roe v. Wade because that would mean to me that their judicial philosophy did not include a respect for established decisions. She wouldn't do that. Wasn't going to do that. Said that over and over. Now, you might recall Trump's nominee, Brett Kavanaugh, was clearly a conservative activist with a conservative judicial record. He was likely to overturn Roe. Experts and activists loudly noted that in real time before his confirmation vote.
4:45And just to be crystal clear, Donald Trump himself said he would only pick among a list of pro-life judges suggested by pro-life or anti-abortion legal groups. So this whole thing was organized as, hey, we're only looking at that kind of judge. And Kavanaugh, as you may recall, faced skepticism for many reasons. He lost the vote of another Republican senator, Lisa Murkowski. They needed Collins' vote to get to 50. and she'd made a big show of sharing her concerns, raising Roe and these issues in her meeting with him, which drove headlines about what she would do. In the end, after everything I just showed you, everything she told Maine voters for years, she then came out casting the 50th vote for Justice Kavanaugh, breaking the thrust of her promise, which she memorably tried to explain, casting this key anti-abortion vote, this pro-life vote, this anti-Roe vote.
5:42She tried to explain it in a long and winding floor speech the day of that vote. Aint pledged to nominate only judges who would overturn Roe. There has also been considerable focus on the future of abortion rights based on the concern that Judge Kavanaugh would seek to overturn Roe v. Wade. protecting this right is important to me. The judge asserted to me a long-established precedent. It's not something to be trimmed, narrowed, discarded, or overlooked. Mr. President, I will vote to confirm Judge Kavanaugh. The ayes are 50. The nays are 48. There you have it. One of the most significant votes of Collins' career.
6:38A vote that was crucial to putting Kavanaugh on the court. He was selected and announced from that list of pro-life judges. And at the first judicial opportunity they got within about four years, Kavanaugh was crucial to that new MAGA majority, thanks to Susan Collins, gutting Roe v. Wade. Breaking news from the Supreme Court at this hour, the justices handing down the highly anticipated ruling on abortion. Roe was a 50-year-old precedent that had been reaffirmed by the Supreme Court itself multiple times. That did not matter to them at all. People here talking about that feeling of moving backwards.
7:16The Roe v. Wade reversal, sending thousands of Americans into the streets. This decision is really seen as devastating to so many women across this country. You might remember where you were when a decision at large came down. You certainly can remember what had shifted these Trump justices got on the court. It was the new law of the land. It was actually the first time in the modern era that the Supreme Court reversed its own precedent for an established right. Basically taking a right that the court had recognized back. It was thanks to Trump's new members on that court and Collins' vote to get them there.
7:52And what did she have to say? Well, she continued her political act for Maine, where she deploys her power to gut abortion rights, a power vested in her only by the people of Maine having reelected her, and then claiming a kind of confusion and shock at the consequences of her very foreseeable actions. Collins came out that day. I just showed you what the mood was like in the country and said she criticized the new ruling as ill-considered radical, throwing out a precedent, sowing political chaos, anger, and a further loss of confidence in her government, almost as if she herself were not a part of the government that explicitly put Kavanaugh on the court.
8:33In that statement, she did try to address that and mention that two of the Trump justices she helped put on the court, Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, had told her otherwise. And so she said it was inconsistent with what they said in their meetings with me, that they went ahead and did this thing that Trump said was the reason they were being put on the court, gutting Roe v. Wade. It is not a shocker that the president's pro-life judges ruled as pro-life judges after Collins gave them that blank check. Back in Maine, people were angry. The voters, some of whom did believe Collins' politicking, were especially furious.
9:10Her approval had already been crashing. Then there was a flooding of a fund for her opponent that actually also did a different type of crashing. It crashed that website there. And the joke was on Maine voters. More people were waking up to that, just as the SNL impression of Collins captured the kind of the joke after she helped Kavanaugh get confirmed. This was all Susan. Oh, please. The last thing I wanted was to make this about me. That's why I told everyone to tune in at 3 p.m. So I could tell all my female supporters. Psych! Psych! That's SNL boiling down the Susan Collins dance to its essence and what she said there to her female supporters as well as other abortion rights supporters in the blue state of Maine.
10:03Now, today I can tell you Collins has a roughly 58 disapproval rating. That's very negative, very high. And from the nomination hearings to these more recent times, people are getting fed up. He is not hearing Maine women. I'm a Democrat, but I have always voted for Susan Collins until this year. We're going to hear the Chief Callum. She has just, she's just capitulated. She's not listening to what the people of Maine want anymore. Collins has been there way longer than she should have been, and it's time for a change. That's a big dynamic when you listen to some of the voters' calls for change that, of course, predate the recent Maine news, which is the Democrats' search for the right candidate to run against her.
10:49But Collins' concerned dance about judicial nominees extends to a lot of other issues. It's kind of like her main political move at this point. Some view it as a schtick that has become such a kind of recurring, recycled and unreliable nod to a type of fake moderation that the script has become kind of a running joke, at least in the informed or nerdy political circles where people track each individual senator have noticed her doing this. And it's a theme in some campaign ads. For 30 years in Washington, she's been very concerned. I have a number of concerns. I'm also concerned. Collins is always concerned, but never courageous.
11:29Caving to Trump on health care. Concerned. On affordability. Concerned. On ice. Concerned. I am very concerned. She is concerned and she has found this has worked so far. Being concerned without actually doing anything about the issue that affects the voters, the people of this country has kind of become vintage Collins. All public performance, very little action. So if you're watching in Maine or you know people there and you want the actual facts on how her concerns line up with how much she now votes with Trump as a MAGA enabler across the board, I will show you that record, just the facts, when our special report returns in 90 seconds.
12:50Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically, it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen. Wherever you get your podcasts. Normally in these ads, you expect somebody to ask you to buy something. But this is something different. I'm Julian Barnes, and I'm a reporter for The New York Times.
13:35I'm a national security reporter, and that means I'm reporting on military operations. These are fast-paced, quickly-moving situations. What exactly is happening on the ground is often shrouded in mystery. but we turn to trusted sources, satellite imagery, and expertise built up over years in order to ferret out the facts that wouldn't otherwise come to light. I'm here to ask you to seek out a news source that does firsthand fact-based reporting. If it's your local paper, great. If it's the Times, thank you. Because where you go for your information matters.
14:21Our special report on Senator Susan Collins continues now with her actual record. This is just election facts as people get ready to make up their own minds in this election, because many main voters say they feel like Collins used to be more moderate or independent, and that later it seems like she just skates on that brand but undercuts it, has become more of a MAGA Trump enabler. So let's look at the actual record, not political opinions, not her political speeches about being concerned, but her actual voting record over time. And the truth is actually nuanced. Some good for her back in the day, and super MAGA now.
15:03Because the truth is, in Colin's first 20 years or so in the Senate, she was basically 60-40 when it came to backing GOP colleagues. And that is actually very independent by congressional standards, meaning most members of both parties are more partisan, voting at a much higher rate than 59 % than she was. And so early on, she did vote more independently. Then in the Trump era, that shot up to over 85 percent. And in the current term, which is what voters are assessing right now, all the way up to 95 percent MAGA, including on all kinds of consequential items and the big ticket items like life tenure for Trump's judicial nominees.
15:48And while many Senate Republicans strongly backed Trump in that Ukraine shakedown impeachment trial saying he was innocent, we got the concern thing from Collins. This was obviously a big topic, and she tried her hand at the moderate type of double talk that has apparently worn thin with some main voters. So go back to the first term and the type of alleged lawlessness, allegedly impeachable offense. It's what people debated and how she was playing it. She gave him the exact same partisan vote of support as other Republicans in his first impeachment, which was about trying to abuse his power over Ukraine to have a fake investigation into an opponent.
16:30Sound familiar? And she gave him an out, gave him an acquittal, gave him full bill of health. But tossed in the classic claim that I would tell you even most Trump supporters wouldn't necessarily agree with. You know, Steve Bannon touts Trump all the time, but he rarely describes Trump as a contrite learner of lessons. I believe that the president has learned from this case. What do you believe the president has learned? The president has been impeached. That's a pretty big lesson. I'm voting to acquit. I hope that the president has learned his lesson, but we'll have to see.
17:18Whew. You could just sort of hear the sighs across the country. She does hope he learned his lesson, but we will have to see. Well, this is an accountability update in our special report. So, for Senator Collins... We saw when Trump fomented a violent insurrection, later pardoning and embracing and even trying to fund the cast of MAGA thugs who literally bum rushed the Capitol, attacked, manhandled and battered police, as you see in this disturbing video. Much of these videos were taken by them because they were proud of being against police. They were proud of being against America. They were documenting it themselves because their president told them to do it and later pardoned them for it.
18:04however delusionally anti-police and anti-American they looked, they were right about one thing. This was what Trump wanted, and he did let them out of prison for it as they rushed the floor of the Senate. Lawless violence to steal an election. Now, later, Collins did vote to convict him of those offenses when he didn't learn his lesson. And I will state, had other Republicans joined her, they might have disqualified Trump legally from ever returning to office. Collins spoke out against Trump's violent mob on the Senate floor during that second impeachment trial. A mob stormed the Capitol determined to stop Congress from carrying out our constitutional duty.
18:50It was the culmination of a steady stream of provocations by President Trump intimidating and threatening the election officials in Georgia. President Trump's falsehoods convinced a large number of Americans that he had one and that they were being cheated. that was Collins rebuking Trump's lies and his role in the insurrection. And that's important because that's where she landed. If you take her to word, that's what she thought about him. And now, with Trump back in office, she is voting with him and his agenda and supporting him more often than any time in her Senate career. So she said that was the problem, but she's 95 % with Trump.
19:44Now, Collins is also vulnerable, like some other incumbents, because of the larger revolt against the out-of-touch, aging incumbent politician population. And that's across both parties. Calls for generational change are rampant as long-serving incumbents cling to power. We've seen that in primaries, Democratic and Republican. And in the case of Collins, she's also outlived her own vows back when she was a younger, newer leader. Way back in the day, decades ago, she was tapping into the actual sentiment that we see today, issuing what would become, I'll just warn you, another broken vow to Maine voters.
20:22I have pledged that if I'm elected, I will only serve two terms, regardless of whether term limits law, a constitutional amendment passes or not. Twelve years is long enough to be in public service, make a contribution, and then come home and let someone else take your place. That's what she said, and she broke that vow. Had she honored it, she'd actually had to have stepped away from the Senate back in 2009. Now she's breaking that vow again in this election cycle, seeking what would be her sixth term. If she wins, she would complete that term at age 80. Susan Collins is a charter member of the very political class she ran to oppose, breaking her own vows, clinging to office for another term, part of this aging gerontocracy with often sclerotic ideas that insist on trying to rule over what appears to measurably be a majority desperate for new leadership.
21:18Collins is a long ways from the upstart candidate who was advocating sweeping changes and said that was needed over incremental steps. It is very important that we recognize the many successes and the exciting projects and the innovations that are going on every day throughout the state. We can't do with incremental changes. We need sweeping changes. Sweeping changes, term limits, pro-choice leadership. It's almost like every big thing she emphasized she has broken. That was from Collins running for governor in a race she actually lost to Angus King in 1994. Update to our Senate today. King is 82, serving as the junior senator with fewer years in the body than Collins from their same state.
22:09She's now running to hit 36 years total. If you're counting, that's three times longer than the cap she claimed to set for herself. And yet, as Collins told Maine voters... Twelve years is long enough to be in public service, make a contribution, and then come home and let someone else take your place. Twelve years is long enough. So she said, many Maine voters now do seem to agree with what has become a discredited claim from their representative, who has become the problem she campaigned against, at least on the issue of incumbency. Collins has added that vow to several others that I showed you she broke in pursuit of this lifetime of power, perhaps regardless of the cost to her state or her own credibility.
22:57Now, to channel the incumbent with that trail of broken promises, a main voter might look at all this, that we just saw, the facts, the records, her own claims and actions and say, you know, this is concerning. You might even say it's very concerning. Or the voters might do something different than their aging incumbent. And they might actually do something about it. Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J.
23:51Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Normally in these ads, you'd expect someone like me to ask you to buy something. But I want to ask you to do something different. I'm Dave Ferenthal, and I'm a reporter for The New York Times. I'm an investigative reporter, which means that I follow the money, inside of government and outside of government. The point of my job is to find things people are trying to hide. It involves talking to lots of people. It involves looking through lots and lots of documents. And if there weren't folks like me to go beyond the surface to understand who is really shaping what the government does, the public will be left in the dark about what the government's doing with your tax money, what the government's doing to you through regulations and spending.
24:34If you're like me and you think this kind of journalism is important, seek out a news source that does firsthand fact-based reporting. If that's the New York Times, thank you. If that's your local paper, that's great too, because where you get your information matters.
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25:26What do you do with autocracy? Do you cave or do you fight? Sounds like kind of a basic question, and yet we've seen law firms, corporations, and all kinds of groups just pack up and cave, at least in the beginning of Trump's second term. Tonight we turn to how some are fighting, especially on the First Amendment. The New York Times is punching back, filing a motion basically taking the government, Trump, DOJ, to court to try to get these subpoenas of journalists quashed. Trump was growing furious, reportedly, over security problems with his jet gift. The Times lawyer says these new DOJ subpoenas against journalists are abusive, improper, bad faith, the theme we've reported on, and that some judges in different cases have already found to be a problem for the Trump DOJ.
26:11The Times executive editor saying this. I've been a foreign correspondent in China, and I've seen the way an authoritarian government can keep journalists from reporting on a huge amount of news and information that's very clearly in the public interest. It's really essential to American democracy that that kind of erosion of press freedoms not happen here. The Times, of course, has its own news section where it tries to cover these issues fairly, objectively, including even when the government's going after them. And then through their leadership, their lawyers, what you just saw there, just like Jack Smith has been speaking out, they seem to understand that in today's world and media political environment, they also have to go beyond the courtroom and tell the public the value of what they say they do and why they're fighting.
27:00Trump is also trying to hunt leakers. He's talking to people who traveled on the jet. They want some people potentially to have to turn over their phones and figure out who might have talk to the Times. Notice how that fact or reporting hurts Trump and helps the Times. It suggests that they have accurate sources, people who are on the plane telling them true things, eyewitness accounts about what happened. And that undercuts the government argument that they would be able to subpoena these reporters. For example, if there were illegal leaks, that would go to the leakers, people who work for Trump, not whether the journalists have accurate sources.
27:36Meanwhile, Trump's nominee for intelligence was very cagey in discussing these controversial subpoenas. I wanted to ask you, Mr. Clayton, about the subpoenas of the New York Times reporters. I can't get into the specifics of an investigation, an ongoing matter. Did you or anybody at the Southern District of New York have conversations with anybody at the White House or the Justice Department in Washington, D.C., before you issued those subpoenas? I can say it this way without getting into the investigation. The protocols require consultation. Did anybody in Washington, D.C. suggest to you or anybody on your team that you should issue subpoenas in this case?
28:24I'm not going to get into the details. What I can tell you is that we followed those procedures. So you can see the Senate bearing down on multiple nominees about this. It's broader than this recent story. In fact, we hear about the normalizing and sort of way that people get accustomed to this. The fact that Trump's doing it repeatedly doesn't make it any more OK constitutionally. Indeed, they have lost a bunch of rounds in the court. And the Times jet story is one of several. There have been subpoenas attempted for journalists there and the Post. the Murdoch-owned Wall Street Journal. They've indicted journalists like Don Levin and Georgia Fort, and they have tried to abuse government power to retaliate or silence comedians.
29:10I want to bring in Eugene Robinson, a polls-prize-winning writer-reporter, MSNOW analyst, who was with The Post for a long time. Welcome, Gene. I mentioned that they're trying to normalize this, even as some of the cases have floundered. Do you see it as important that the Times is not only fighting this in court, but also vocalizing why this is, in their view, harassment of their First Amendment rights. It's important and necessary that the Times is fighting these subpoenas because, as the Times editor Joe Conn said in that video, these are being issued in bad faith. And this is not contrary to what was said in the hearing.
29:54these are not the procedures that historically have been followed. This is not the first administration to ever subpoena a reporter. It has happened before. There has not been, at least in my career as a journalist, I would say there has not been since Richard Nixon, perhaps, this sort of all-out assault on the press and on the media and on its ability, its right, to tell the public things that the government doesn't want it to know. And that's one of our core functions, right? And that's why we're enshrined in the First Amendment, because the government is not going to tell you everything and everything that you need to know.
Read the full transcript
30:45Um, and what's very different about these cases, especially this case, the subpoenas to the New York Times reporters, is these subpoenas were issued something like within 48 hours of when the story appeared. That doesn't happen in the very rare cases in the past in which Nixon administrations have subpoenaed reporters. It has been after months and years of other investigation. The procedures are to do everything else you possibly can do to get the information you're seeking before you move towards subpoenaing reporters. And that was clearly not done in this case. right and that rush which shows how pliant uh the justice department has become under trump uh may ultimately doom the subpoenas because although it's a fairly low bar people have heard about this people know at trial beyond a reasonable doubt high bar uh low bar probable cause that a crime occurred not necessarily by the new york times and yet your point is getting it out the door within 48 hours after the story really strains the credibility of whether there is a known national security crime that they've taken any care to investigate at all, Gene.
32:14Absolutely. They haven't had time to do any sort of investigation, much less a proper investigation. So what exactly is the crime? What secrets do they think were disclosed that were not stuff that was not already known. I don't think it was a secret that there were measures on Air Force One that would protect the president in potential hostile situations. That's what most Americans, I think, would expect. And so if it's not revealing that fact, which, again, was already known, then what was the crime they're supposedly investigating? The answer, I think, is that they're not. What they're trying to do is they're trying to chill the atmosphere, to freeze it, really.
33:15They're trying to make potential sources, whistleblowers, less likely to tell their stories, and they're trying to intimidate the media from reporting, again, things that the government doesn't want you to know. Yeah. And the Times and the Post, where you're on the water, stepping up where other folks and law firms haven't. So that's also giving a—people say, why is this in the news? Well, because they're fighting back. Gene, great to see you. Thank you, sir. By the end of the hour, we have Michael McKean here. You know him from so many of his great works. He's got a new, very political play in New York.
33:58But next, Barack Obama punching back. We'll show you what he said.
34:08We don't hear from former President Obama all that often. That is the norm of most former presidents. But he's been a little louder lately with his presidential center and media around that and a few more conversations. So Obama, with a widely regarded author, Malcolm Gladwell, also a New Yorker writer, have this new conversation out. It's part of a history podcast, Obama discussing Trump's attacks on democracy. We're having debates now about voting rights, and you've got a Supreme Court that has systematically weakened in the possibilities of enforcing voting rights in our democracy. And we have a politics now that, at least one of our major parties, has been captured by politics that is not that subtle about suggesting that we the people means a certain kind of people.
35:14Barack Obama has always been known for his sobriety, his calm, the hope that he sold in his campaigns. That's about as close as you're going to get to hearing him address the big problem in America right now, which is weaponized, proud, and sometimes violent white supremacy. Obama is careful with his words. He's lived both sides of this line in our politics. So it was also interesting hearing him discuss what he called the nativist, again, that could be racist, rhetoric and sort of perceived jurisprudence of J.D. Vance. when you have the vice president current vice president making a speech that is basically a blood and soil version of we the people that you know it matters who your parents were and how long they've been here despite him being married to an immigrant daughter of an immigrant himself so all these issues are still being debated.
36:24Debated and blood and soil can send us backwards to a time that most people don't actually really want to live in, where it doesn't matter whether you participate in the rules and laws of this country. It only matters what you look like. I'm going to fit in a break when we come back. Some very prescient warnings about modern McCarthyism and the lessons of how to fight back.
36:52Let us not assassinate this land further, Senator. Look, you've done enough. Have you no sense of decency there at long last? Have you left no sense of decency? If there was a single moment that turned the tide against the right-wing mob justice of the Red Scare, it was very likely that question from the Army Council addressing Senator Joe McCarthy, rebutting another round of baseless accusations of communism. It's a line often quoted by later admirers of that kind of courage against a runaway government. It also is, by the way, sampled on the song Caught Their Eyes, Jay-Z and Frank Ocean, showing the relevance that lasted over 60 years.
37:35Now, that sort of breaking moment in the Senate came after the government had harassed and ruined many other lives through the House Un-American Activities Committee, which you probably remember learning about it at least in school. It was basically a kind of witch hunt program with that Orwellian title, who is un-American, which pressed against perceived opponents, artists, critics. And it asked that Kafkaesque question, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party? Be careful how you answer because even your honest answer might make it seem like a fair question to press on others, which is why it was a kind of group harassment campaign.
38:15And that brings us to Are You Now? or Have You Ever Been? Now a play in New York reviving a 1972 show by bringing this history to life. The dialogue is from actual congressional transcripts. The parallels today are clear. You probably don't need a news anchor to explain them, as now we have even the mightier powers of the presidency, not a congressional probe, unleashed against sometimes artists and comics we've seen and journalists, as in the McCarthy era, as well as probes and indictments of prominent members of the opposition party. It's almost become normalized just a few years into the second term.
38:51Michael McKean plays the committee chair in the play, a serious role for an artist whose breadth ensures you have seen him in something. From Laverne and Shirley to Better Call Saul to the mockumentary, this is Final Tap, beloved by music fans everywhere.
39:13Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation. Oh, that is so invigorating. Thank you very much, and thank you Saturday Night Live for having me on the program. But if you want to know who killed Mr. Body, I did. In the hall, with the revolver. Okay, Chief, take him away. And out of hers, a briar. Good night. Don't stay up all night watching old movies. Stealing them blind. And he gets to be a lawyer? What a sick joke. I should have stopped him when I had the chance. Michael McKean is here making his beat debut. As mentioned, he's in this play, Are You Now or Have You Ever Been?
39:55And is an actor, musician, screenwriter, director, producer, acclaimed, and really known. People know you when they see you. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. Is this about the past or the present? I don't know. I don't know. A lot of it seems awfully familiar. And people have made that comment coming out of the building at night. I run into people who say, wow, it's still going on. And of course, it's different because like you said, it's a very different power we're fighting here. You can't dodge the truth because there are people taking stuff down and they're going to come at you with everything you ever did.
40:30In our case, Lionel Stander and and Larry Parks, and Abe Burroughs, and Ilya Kazan, and Jerome Robbins. And not everyone comes across all that well, because people were faced with enormous penalties for having done what they've done. And if you don't find exactly the right way to frame your recent past, your future is going to get awful dark. Let's look at the House Un-American Activities Committee This is 1947. The question is, have you ever been a member of the Communist Party? I'm framing my answer in the only way in which any American citizen can frame his answer. Then you deny the question.
41:15Which invades his, absolutely invades his mind. Then you deny, you refuse to answer that question. Is that correct? I have told you that I will offer my beliefs, my affiliations, and everything else to the American public, and they will know where I stand as they do from what I have witnessed. It's an awful thing. it's an awful thing what was done to the character of a good man a lot of people were taken off at the knees uh it's it was a very grim time now here it all happens in the little thing in our pockets we can cancel people like that yeah and then it's a different type of mob justice i wonder if if steeping yourself in this gave you any greater insight or thought about how we define courage and heroism because there's a traditional way where you say, well, here's the hero and they did the tough thing.
42:03And then here's the coward. That period of history and the level of pressure on some people who didn't have a lot of money or power raises those other questions, what we refer to with naming names, or are you automatically a coward if in some cases you had very little power to begin with and the government came down on you? No. I mean, in the case of Larry Parks, He was a guy who in the early 40s, he was very idealistic and he wanted to make the world a better place. And he thought that the Communist Party would give that to him. He realized that it didn't and he was out of there. And then suddenly, 10 years later, he's being called before this committee and asked to name names.
42:46And it was something that didn't come naturally to him. I keep trying to fit it in with today, and things are so different. But it's still someone wants their bidding done. The Beat is a music-oriented show. It is, isn't it? That's why we have the lighters taking a concert. Ah, okay. We love the Spinal Taps. Okay. Let's take a look. Your first drummer was John Stampy Peeps. Great, great, tall blonde geek with glasses. Good drama. Great look, good drama, yeah. Good drama. What happened to him? He died. He died in a bizarre gardening accident some years back. It was really one of those things. It was, you know, the authorities said, you know, best leave it.
43:37It's not unsolved, really.
43:44Wow Thank you I'm going to try and sort some stuff out We really need someone Hey guys, we have Questlove on the line in the other room There's something really funny about the seriousness and almost the particular obsessions of music documentaries. Because I'm in the news, I watch a lot of different types of documentaries. Yeah. I like music. Music documentaries are so extra, the kids would say. So is that part of what made that naturally funny? Or you guys starting out were like, we don't know if this is going to work. Well, I don't know. We just wanted to make something. We knew we wanted to make it in a documentary format.
44:28We knew that we didn't want to write a screenplay. We wanted to improvise. So we hired a lot of people who could improvise. We had some best in the business there with Paul Benedict and Howard Hessman, just goes on and on, Franny Drescher, you know, who kind of walked and literally had us at hello. I mean, she just walked in as Bobby Fleckman. You liked it? It's like a cult classic? You like hearing that? Yeah, I guess so. When people swear by this film. Well, yeah, I mean, it took the sting out of not making any money the first time around, you know, and it was nice to be known as a cult classic.
45:03In closing, I'll ask you, is there a secret to having this great long career in Hollywood and beyond, which not everyone has? If there is one, I think it's not worrying about how you're doing anytime. I love that. Yeah. It's just, I think there were people and I saw people coming up who were so obsessed with, how am I doing? How am I doing? I do. I read for this thing that damn Tom Hanks got it again. Now what? I, there were people who in one of Chris's films, uh, for your consideration, it becomes all about how are we going to do on the night? How are, are we going to get nominated? And it just, it, it, it removes the, it removes the art from your heart.
45:53It really does. removes the art from your heart. Yes, it does. Bars. Yeah, you gotta, you gotta just, you know, you gotta do the job first. If you're worrying about how it's landing, don't take off, you know? I love that. Michael McKean, I'll remind everyone, if you're near New York, you can see, Are You Now or Have You Ever Been? It is playing through September and is as relevant as ever. Thanks for being here. Thank you very much.
46:25We have some local media news. I want to invite you to our next MSNOW live event. It's our We the People series, and we're coming to Texas on September 26th. You can meet all of us in person there. Rachel, Jen, Lawrence, everybody, I'll be there. Go to ms.now slash together. ms.now slash together. Bookmark it for later or buy a ticket tonight if you know you'll be near Arlington. We'd love to see you. Stitch Fix. Stop shopping, get styled. A plus on the outfit, Miss Turner. You are about to slay parent-teacher conferences. Oh, these? Just the most perfect fitting jeans my stylist sent me. Oh, hello you who didn't set one foot in a mall and still looks amazing.
47:08Just show your size, style, and budget, and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. Stitch Fix. Get started today at stitchfix.com. To my stylist, this look is dedicated to you. Thank you. Thank you.
From the publisher
July 17, 2026, 6pm: MS NOW’s Ari Melber delivers a special report on accountability for Sen. Susan Collins. Plus, The New York Times has filed a motion to quash subpoenas the Trump DOJ sent to the paper’s reporters. MS NOW's Ari Melber reports and is joined by Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist Eugene Robinson.
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