Outrage Amid Trump Admin “War Crime” Reports

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0:35As an effective and affordable online learning program, IXL covers math, language arts, science, and social studies using interactive practice problems for kids from pre-K to 12th grade. Listeners can get an exclusive 20 % off IXL membership when they sign up today at IXL.com slash 20. Visit ixl.com slash 20 to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Welcome to The Beat. I'm Melissa Murray in for Ari Melber, and we begin tonight with the growing scandal about an alleged war crime that is engulfing the Trump administration. It involves a military airstrike back in September, the first in what Trump officials claim is a campaign targeting suspected drug smugglers in the Caribbean.

1:21The Washington Post reports that, as officials watched the boat on a drone feed, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth gave the order, kill them all, according to two people with direct knowledge of the operation. But after the smoke cleared from the missile strike, there was a shock. Two survivors were clinging to the smoldering wreck. The Post reports that, quote, the special operations commander ordered a second strike to comply with Hegseth's instructions. The two men were blown apart in the water, two people familiar with the matter said. Now, lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are saying that if The Washington Post's reporting is true, the strike is illegal.

2:05Obviously, if that occurred, that would be very serious. And I agree that that would be an illegal act. Going after survivors in the water, that is clearly not lawful. If that reporting is true, it's a clear violation of the DOD's own laws of war. And so this rises to the level of a war crime. If it was as if the article said that is a violation of the law of war, when people want to surrender, you don't kill them. In fact, both American and international law would suggest that this was, in fact, an illegal strike. The Pentagon's own manual for the laws of war says, quote,

2:55And both the Senate and House Armed Services Committees say that they will investigate this matter. And while Trump now says that he backs Hegseth, he was more equivocal on Sunday when asked about it. Take a listen. Can you talk a little bit about the strikes In the controversy around Secretary And what defense he makes said I don't know anything about it He said he did not say that And I believe him 100 % You're talking about the two men The second strike to kill He said he didn't do it If there were a second strike And they killed people Even in the first strike Number one I don't know that that happened And Pete said he did not want them.

3:38He didn't even know what people were talking about. So we'll look into it. But no, I wouldn't have wanted that, not a second strike. Pete Hegseth and the Pentagon deny the accusations and maintain that these actions were lawful. In total, the administration has conducted at least 21 strikes that have caused 83 fatalities. From the outset, the legality of all of these actions has been hotly debated. This is all the latest in a string of controversies surrounding Pete Hegseth, including the accidental sharing of classified information in the so-called Signalgate incident from March. Joining me now to discuss all of this is Tom Nichols, writer with The Atlantic and professor emeritus of the National Security Affairs at the U.S.

4:28Naval War College. His latest article is titled, Pete Hegseth Needs to Go Now. Also with me tonight is Dahlia Lithwick, senior editor and legal correspondent for Slate. She's also an MSNOW law and politics analyst. Tom, let's start with you. Given your experience with the laws of war, what is your reaction to this extraordinary story? Well, first they said it didn't happen, and now they're saying it's happened and it's legal and lawful. The problem is that there is no scenario under which you can fire and kill fire at and kill people that are helpless in the water and make it legal. There just isn't.

5:12I mean, this is you know, they've they've really chosen to plant the flag here on something that isn't even ambiguous. You know, there are a lot of cases. The United States has been involved in a lot of difficult places in the world, like Somalia, the Battle of Mogadishu, Afghanistan, Iraq. This isn't this this one isn't even in the same ballpark. ballpark. These are shipwrecked people who have been rendered incapable of combat. Not that they were capable of it in the first place. I mean, there's no argument that these boats are ever shot at us. We just don't like what they're doing, and we assume that they have drugs on them, and so we can just blow them up.

5:51But the idea that you can then go in and say, you know what, we're just going to execute the last survivors. We actually prosecuted people after World War II for doing that exact same thing. Yesterday was the 80th anniversary of the death by firing squad of a U-boat, of a Nazi U-boat commander who was convicted of doing exactly what Hegseth is accused of ordering here. So, Dahlia, Tom makes very clear why this particular incident is so concerning, but I would just note that legally these strikes have always been on thin ice, And you've discussed this a fair amount on your Amicus podcast and in your writing.

6:32What's your take on this? What makes this so wobbly and uneven in terms of its legality? I mean, I think Tom makes exactly the point. This is a kind of double-decker sandwich of illegality because it's not even clear that we're in anything resembling a war. That's been a question from the jump. whatever it is that we're doing in the Caribbean, it's not clear by any metric that it's legal and that these were extrajudicial killings long before this weekend's reporting happened. And so I think it's really important to understand we are now debating in some sense the coda to that story, Melissa, which is, oh, and then they straight up assassinated people who were clinging to the hull of the boat.

7:22But whether there's any authority under any law that allows us to just go shooting at boats because we're saying that we're in a war on drugs and that the president gets to decide who is carrying drugs and how they are executed, right? This is the administration claiming to be judge and jury and assassin all in one go. So long before we got to a conversation about, as Tom just said, whether somebody who is essentially shipwrecked can be assassinated. We have to have the conversation we actually haven't had for several months now about whether we can even call this a war. Well, Tom, I wanted to take a listen to Caroline Levitt in her White House press briefing today because she is doubling down that these were necessary actions and there is no wrongdoing here.

8:16Take a listen. The strike conducted on September 2nd was conducted in self-defense to protect Americans in vital United States interests. All right, Tom, still a lawyer here. I know the standard for self-defense. Is this even plausible? These are two suspected smugglers in a small boat, and this is an act of self-defense? Same one, or less. I don't think we should spend a whole lot of time taking too seriously anything Carolyn Levitt says. because that's what Caroline Leavitt does. The idea that this is self-defense, again, is laughable. You would have to argue that somehow our forces were in danger and returned fire.

9:01People forget we interdict drug boats all the time. The Coast Guard has been doing this for decades. And the idea that there's only one way that we know how to do this, And that is to just, you know, fix them with a satellite and then blow them to smithereens is ridiculous. It's because, again, it's something we we actually know how to do. And so the claim of self-defense is probably she was probably given talking points that stretch this idea that, well, you know, drugs are bad and Americans die. And therefore, we have to preemptively stop the drugs that are going to kill Americans. And that makes it self-defense.

9:37That is such a stretch of self-defense that it would get laughed out of any court internationally or domestically because of how many—it's just removed so many steps. But at this point, what can they do? Of course they're going to say whatever they need to say that they're acting legally. This whole thing should never—Dolly is absolutely right. This whole thing should never have gotten off the ground, at least not without some congressional approval, clear statement of what we're intended to do, why we're doing it, when we'll know that we're done. And instead, it's the president saying, you know, I'm just going to flex muscle and kill people and prove that the military will do whatever I tell them to do.

10:19And so, of course, you're going to get statements coming out of the White House that says the president's always right because that's that's her job. Well, Dahlia, it's not just coming from the White House. Over at the Pentagon, Pete Hegseth also doesn't seem to be taking these accusations very seriously. Over the weekend, he posted this. Amit of Franklin the Turtle bombing boats. What's your reaction to this, Dahlia? I mean, is anybody taking this seriously anywhere? I mean, look, I think it's not an unsmart play to just start with trolling, right? Trolling always wins. And when you post a trivial meme, it's generally a good deflection.

11:05Maybe the bigger question, Melissa, is that this is sticking to Pete Hegseth. Like, it's not funny. It's not registering as comedy or owning the libs. I think probably with a little hindsight, making this a joke was an error even for him, because this is across, as you said, ideological lines now. We are hearing from members of the Congress that if this is true, this is a war crime. And the idea that this is the thing that's going to stick is its own segment, right? Like so many things are allowed to slide, but it is entirely possible that while Pete Hegseth didn't initially think this was anything beyond a punchline, the country disagrees.

11:55And I think I would maybe just add this. You know, Tom just said, and it's really important to emphasize, we executed people in 1945 for doing precisely this, you know, killing folks who were on a boat that didn't need to be killed and then saying I was just following orders. Neither of those presumptions are a question as a matter of law. So the idea that Pete Hexeth, like, you know, sent out a turtle tells you that he thinks he's bulletproof and he might be wrong. Well, just to that point, Tom, if this does have legs, what kind of prosecutions could those involved later face? Well, let's be realistic.

12:44I want to say one thing, though, about that meme. It's the Christmas season, and the Secretary of Defense took a beloved children's character and depicted him blowing up drug smugglers. You have to look at that and wonder, what the hell is wrong with these people? I mean, aside from policy differences we may have, I mean, this is just, it's just wrong. I mean, it's just kind of sick. And it shows you the complete unseriousness of people that should be taking the most serious job in the world very much more seriously than they are. As for prosecutions, let's be realistic. If something, if Hegseth, turns out Hegseth gave this order, Trump's going to pardon him.

13:24And Trump himself will get immunity because the Supreme Court has already said he can't be prosecuted for anything. He's basically a king and he can't be prosecuted for anything. The question is, how many people who followed this order, and again, in the name of fairness, we have to say, if these details are correct and Hegseth or Admiral Bradley gave this order, or if Hegseth gave it and Bradley carried it out and then it went down the chain, how many people down that chain have the same immunity? because you don't get a pass. As, you know, Dolly just pointed out, I was just following orders, doesn't cut it in the 20th century or the 21st century anymore.

14:06And so, you know, but in terms of Hegseth, the worst thing that could happen to Hegseth is that he gets fired and he has to go back to being Pete Hegseth. But I wouldn't be looking for some kind of international prosecution or some kind of American court because Trump's going to Trump's going to extend his his pardons to people because that's what he does. Dahlia, I want to circle back to the administration's reported justifications for this. They claim that all of this is to limit the entering of drugs from the United States. And this, again, belies belief. Most drugs don't enter the United States on boats.

14:43And more troublingly, recently, the president pardoned the former president of Honduras, someone who was actually convicted of drugs trafficking. So how do we reconcile these different incidents with this justification that we're doing all of this to stop the flow of drugs? Right. I mean, I think two things, Melissa. The first is what you just said. If we really, really cared about who's pouring, you know, huge amounts of cocaine into the United States, this would not be, you know, the conversation we'd be having about forgiving somebody who's been, you know, clearly, clearly leading that as opposed to tiny little boats.

15:23So I think you're exactly right. This is not about interditing drugs. And also, and I think you've both said this now, we've had a policy for a very long time of returning people to their home countries. Many of them never face any kind of charges. I mean, this is not, this is small ball and this is very small, small ball. And so I think that the larger point is this This is part of a larger theme, which is Donald Trump gets to declare emergencies. Donald Trump gets to say that, you know, drug trafficking is emergency. Then he gets to say the army is answerable only to me. Right. We've heard recently, I cannot give an unlawful order to the military.

16:05Stop and sit with that. And then we are hearing about a massive, massive expansion of executive power. And this is simply a test of that. It's another version of putting people on the streets in Chicago, putting people on the streets in Portland and saying like the entire military exists to respond to emergencies that I declare with or without factual predicates. So I'm a little bit with Tom here, like parsing the nature of this war on drugs is a little bit of how they say squirrel, right? We chase after it. This is a massive expansion of presidential power, a claim, Nixonian, that if the president orders it, it's not illegal.

16:51And if Pete Hegseth orders it, it's not illegal. We are testing that. And the real question is whether people are going to exceed to that. All right. Tom Nichols, Dahlia Lithwick, thank you for helping us connect all those dots. Coming up, we are going to break down some new setbacks for Trump as his approval rating plummets to a new low. Plus, my interview with Alexander Vindman about the corruption behind Trump's so-called peace plan with Russia. And by the end of the hour, the great John Leguizamo is going to be back. And we are back in just 90 seconds. with the Vivgard Hytrulo FGAR TIGAMOD ALPHA and Hyaluronidase QVFC pre-filled syringe self-injection is in your hands it's your treatment routine use at the time and same day each week take the pre-filled syringe with you on vacation or have it handy for cozy staycations for more information visit livevividly.com that's L-I-V-E V-Y-V-I-D-L-Y dot com.

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18:55Some early coal in Santa's stocking. The first day after the holiday weekend delivered a new stinging rebuke of Donald Trump. A federal appeals court has ruled that New Jersey U.S. Attorney Alina Haba has been serving unlawfully. The three-judge panel concluded that the Trump administration appeared to become frustrated by the legal and political barriers to installing its preferred picks as U.S. attorneys, the top law enforcement officers in those districts, and according to the court, the administration's tactics to keep HABA in office violated the law. All of this comes just a week after a different federal judge dismissed the Trump administration's cases against James Comey and Letitia James because that prosecutor, Lindsey Halligan, was also appointed unlawfully.

19:44The string of legal setbacks is a blow to Trump, but he might not realize just how far his standing has fallen. The Atlantic is calling Donald Trump, quote, the bubble-wrapped president, reporting that, quote, everyone around Trump and everything he's seeing on TV and on his phone is telling him that he's right. But poll after poll suggests that Americans believe Trump is now getting it wrong. The numbers back all of this up. Recent Gallup polling shows Trump with a 36 % approval rating. That's the lowest approval rating of his second term. And things look even worse for Trump's GOP comrades in Congress.

20:27Back in March, Congress enjoyed a 63 % approval rating among Republicans. In September, on the eve of the shutdown, that had fallen to 54%. Now, following the longest government shutdown in history, congressional approval, again among Republicans, is at 23%. Trump and his party are on the ropes, even among their own voters. Joining me now to talk about all of this is Molly Jongfast, contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and an MSNOW political analyst. Also with me is Ambassador Norm Eisen, the former ethics czar in the Obama White House and part of the legal team that successfully challenged U.S.

21:11Attorney Alina Habas' appointment. Ambassador, let's talk about the Habas ruling. What is your reaction to this ruling from the Third Circuit? Well, it's yet another blow to Donald Trump in his assault on the Constitution and laws of the United States. And in this instance, Melissa, he put somebody in as U.S. attorney against the wishes of Congress, Article 1 of the Constitution. The statutory scheme says, for example, if there is a vacancy, you put in the first assistant. Well, Alita Hava wasn't the first assistant. I mean, it's so ridiculous. So I brought this case with wonderful co-counsel Abby Lowell, Jerry Cravaton and my colleagues at the Democracy Defenders Fund.

22:09And actually, our initial win at the trial court, this was the theory that the judge used in the Comey and James cases, where we also filed a brief on behalf of former judges to say it's ridiculous. Fortunately, the rule of law is pushing back on Donald Trump. So just to set this up, this was an end run around having Alina Habas go before the Senate to be confirmed, which is typically the procedure when you want to appoint a U.S. attorney lawfully. In this case, they tried to appoint her as an interim. There's a period of time where that can happen, and then it lapses. And then at that point, the judges in that district are supposed to step in and appoint the interim.

22:51And that didn't happen here. Instead, the DOJ extended her run. Do you anticipate that all of this is then going to the Supreme Court, or is this the end of the line for Alina Haba and the Trump administration on this move? Well, I've learned in 35 years of doing this to guess what the Supreme Court is going to do at my own peril. I don't think it's a cert-worthy question, though, because it's so cut and dried under the statutes that for 120 days Donald Trump gets his pick. After that time lapses, the court went through the very elaborate legal scheme, and none of that happened here. So there's not that much for the Supreme Court to do, and this is happening all across the country.

23:43Not just the Tish James and James Comey case, but Trump-appointed cronies from coast to coast are being dinged by the courts because Trump is not following the law. And, of course, it's just one of hundreds of times that the courts have checked Donald Trump's assault on the Constitution and laws of our country. And that is a very good thing. So it's a good day for the Constitution today. Right. Molly, The Atlantic is reporting that there aren't a lot of dissenting voices speaking to the president. The courts may be the only ones. And The Atlantic reports that there's something of an echo chamber around the president.

24:25They say, quote, there are very few voices inside the White House to tell him no or get him back on track. Truth Social provides a stream of praise from adoring disciples as well as AI slop and other provocative posts that play to the president's basest political instincts. How concerned should we all be about the president operating in this echo chamber? Well, this is the fundamental difference between Trump 1.0 and Trump 2.0, right? We talk about this a lot. There were grownups in the room in Trump 1.0. There are no grownups in the room in Trump 2.0. But there are also no—everyone's just a sycophant.

24:59Right. And so and that's by design. That's what he needs. That's what he likes. But the fundamental problem for him is that we are still a democracy, at least for now. And you see with this special election coming up tomorrow in a district where Donald Trump won, you know, it's an R plus 22. And Donald Trump is calling in because they are worried about an R plus 22. So obviously some things are getting through to him. Right. And you do have midterms coming up and you do have Republicans all of a sudden after that November election, after these poll after poll after poll that show him is almost, you know, sort of as unpopular, if not more unpopular.

25:41Yeah. And then Nixon, right, making Bush, too, look like Lincoln. You see that Donald Trump, they're starting to panic and you're seeing Republican pushback partially because these people want to keep their job. Right. Well, speaking of Bush, too, and the Republican desire to survive, Karl Rove was on Fox this weekend and he had some advice for Republicans. He advised them to take a more popular and populist agenda. So I want you to take a listen. If the Republicans want to maximize their victories in 2026, they need to go back in the way back machine to 1992 and remember the immortal words of that great strategist, James Carville.

26:22It's the economy, stupid, he said, and you've got to have an agenda that is forward-looking. What are we going to have in the way of pro-growth policies that Americans will say, yeah, that'll make my family and my community and my financial prospects better? I wasn't expecting him to have a Katie Porter whiteboard, but I appreciate it. Is this the way a popular populist message focused on affordability and economic concerns? Here's a problem for Karl Rove, right? This is a big problem. We have Donald Trump has enacted all these tariffs, right? These haphazard tariffs. They're inflationary. That's making things more expensive, right?

26:59And you can't message that, right? I don't know how you message this is all. I mean, Trump tries, but it's very difficult. And then you have the health insurance premiums. Right. And I think when you think about the shutdown, what did Democrats, you know, what was the message? The Democrats, these premiums are going to go up. These premiums are going to go up. They have. And they're going up more and more and more. And we're seeing these, like, people say their premiums are 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 percent. I mean, insane. Well, and you also have a president who, I think this is a big difference from Trump, one.

27:31He's not out on the hustings the way he was before. He's not interacting with the base. and said he's hanging out at Mar-a-Lago with oligarchs. Right. And it is, I thought it was a bit strange that if they're really worried about this Tennessee seat and Donald Trump loves to do an event, why is he not out there doing an event in ruby red Tennessee? And that I was surprised by, yes. And look, you'll remember from last week, which feels like 10 ,000 years ago, Marjorie Taylor Greene was talking about how like maybe Donald Trump is spending too much time with globalists and, you know, billionaires and that real MAGA is with the people, that is, you know, it's very hard to make that case when you're Donald Trump and you spent your whole Thanksgiving break in Palm Beach at your club.

28:14Right. Norm, I want to get you in on this as well. The president has been laser focused on things like the White House renovations and crypto policies, and voters are not happy. What are the major factors that are turning them away from Trump? Is it just affordability? Is it just the economy or is it something else? I do think that affordability and health care are important factors, but it's the third leg of that nuclear triad that has been so negative for Trump is the corruption and the cost of corruption. The golden plane from Qatar, the countless amount. Some estimates put it at around$2 billion that Donald Trump has personally made off of the White House, crypto and otherwise, maintaining roles in those crypto businesses, the corrupt pardons where you have fraudsters who've ripped off ordinary Americans getting a pardon or cocaine kingpins.