Pentagon Chief Under Fire

21:37Paul Krugman:Donald Trump has a lot of problems and affordability is one. About half of Americans say the cost of living is now the worst they can ever remember. 37 % of people who backed Trump just last year. If you're wondering why he's hemorrhaging and issues like Epstein or military policy, remember the baseline for that is a third of the people who voted for him thinking he failed on that big promise. Politico says Trump's own voters blame him for this affordability crisis. Faced with all of that and a president who does follow the coverage, we know that about him. Here's how he sounds. It's a con job.

22:16Paul Krugman:I think affordability is the greatest con job. They look at you and they say, affordability. They don't say anything else. Everyone says, oh, their prices were so low. No, they had the worst inflation. Which is it? Affordability is a con job or inflation is bad because it affects affordability. He just doesn't like being accountable. The Daily Beast says Trump is now panicked and trying to convince voters that their experience in the economy just isn't reality. Well, we turn to someone who actually deals in economic reality. You might say it's his thing. Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize winning economist, professor, who now writes the Paul Krugman sub stack, which we read.

23:00Paul Krugman:Welcome back. Hi there. Hi. Your view of the actual affordability problem. You can educate us on what's happening out there. And then this pseudo Trump response. Well, I mean, affordability is a real issue. Inflation continues. It's accelerated some since Trump took office. And he made really, really big promises. I think a lot of this is that Trump, you know, he didn't just promise to bring inflation down. He promised to bring prices way down the day after he took office. He said, I'm going to cut the price of gasoline under$2 a gallon, you know, all of this stuff. And none of which happened.

23:38I think people are really mad. They feel that they were taken for a ride, which they were. And then this sort of affordability has become a catch-all for a lot of things that people feel. And what really stands out from the numbers is prices are up. But even more striking is this is a really lousy job market. We don't have high unemployment. There haven't been big layoffs. But hiring rates are way down. You know, if you've got your job, OK. but if you lose your job or you're young and just entering the labor market, the jobs are just not out there. So the overall unemployment rate isn't that high, but the long-term unemployment rate has really shot up.

24:17So this is not a good economy. And I just saw that Trump is planning to do a tour to go around convincing Americans that the economy is really good and that they're wrong. So if I were a Democratic strategist, I'd be extremely happy at that. Yeah.

24:35Paul Krugman:I mean, we have it. Here's that headline. Trump travel plans to tout, quote, affordability, a travel blitz. The president will aggressively push back against criticism over the cost of everyday essentials. It's sort of striking to see him sort of meet his match on that topic. And how do you put that in the context of what has happened this year? Because the markets we've seen are sort of, you know, volatile. The tech folks still seem happy. The safety net is now due for a cut that won't help people who are dealing with these price crises. Yeah, I mean, you know, it would be nice if history would serve us just one thing at a time.

25:12And so we've got two things. We've got Trump policies, which are destructive, and we have this huge boom in AI spending, which without that, we'd be in a recession right now. That's pretty clear. But both are going along and stocks have been sustained up to a point by AI that, sure, it feels like a bubble, though that's an endless argument. So, but of course, one thing that is really notable about businesses, tech companies are enthusiastic about AI. The public is not. People are not seeing that. They're not seeing anything positive happening to them. It's a big, you know, we make a lot of comparisons with the 1990s when we also had that technology bubble.

25:56But I remember, you know, I've been around for a while, gray hair and all that. I remember, and during the 90s, everyone was having fun. We thought, you know, people were very optimistic about technology. Now we have massive spending on data centers, but the public isn't seeing any benefits from this.

26:14Paul Krugman:I hear you on that. And while there are fun sort of leisure experiments you can do with the most consumer models, right? People say, oh, I can make a picture. We've covered that in this program. A lot of people are being told at work, well, this might replace part of you or all of you. and that doesn't really warm you to the program. Professor, I want to have you stay with us. I want to show some video that just about everybody in America has seen. Donald Trump looking so happy with Zoran Mamdani. Now his administration is pushing something that on its face sounds like redistribution. We think you're the perfect person to walk us through it.

26:53Paul Krugman:So these baby bonds and the Trump accounts when we come back with the professor. in Traverse City you'll find it's your summer to let go just let the rhythm of the water set you free full sail and eyes open inviting you to breathe and just be out here time slows as the gentle waves bring us closer than ever before embrace it all then let go season after season in pure Michigan. Find your season at TraverseCity.com. There's only one Ozempic. Hello, I'm Ozempic. And I'm other GLP-1s, kind of like him. Ozempic, you redid your jingle? Ah, thanks for noticing. Catchy, right? No. Okay, then. Well, ask your doctor about which FDA-approved uses of me.

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28:32Paul Krugman:Now we're going to turn to something totally different and we think pretty interesting. Donald Trump going left. Not just a little left, but all the way into the far left land of redistribution. For context, you have the video that everyone has seen, a kind of glee over perhaps Zoran Mamdani's winning swagger, but also quite directly Donald Trump in the Oval Office saying maybe some of those democratic socialist policies are all good.

29:04Would you feel comfortable living in New York City under a Mamdani? Yeah, I would. I really would. Especially after the meeting. Absolutely.

29:11Paul Krugman:What makes you comfortable? it. We agree on a lot more than I would have thought. I think I want them to do a great job and will help them do a great job. What do they agree on? I mean, Mom Donnie disagrees with Donald Trump on a list so long I can't give it all to you, from policing to foreign policy to how you deal with diversity. But on economics, Trump has repeatedly tried to claim the mantle of populism while not always delivering, something we were discussing with Professor Krugman. And remember, Mamdani is pushing out what are basically a type of distribution policies where you tax the rich higher and the benefits of that go to other people.

29:52Paul Krugman:I am simplifying, but here we go. Some of Trump's policies are, whether you've heard about them or not, trying a version, however perverted, of socialism, as these headlines attest. Tax the rich proposals are typically considered something of not even the current Democratic Party, but the old left or the new Mom Donnie wing. And now Trump is tapping some very big billionaires to get in on the action. So here's an important story you may not have heard much about. Trump this week hosting the Dell family there, Michael and Susan Dell, of course, from that big company. They are very rich billionaires.

30:29Paul Krugman:And they were announcing a$6 billion program where they will give money to essentially about 25 million children, and it's redistributive because they're billionaires and they're excluding recipients who are from high-income area households. So right there, you have something that sounds like redistribution. Indeed, it mimics past programs we've heard about, like so-called baby bonds. And yet there is a big wrinkle because they're not actually doing this through the overall tax code for everyone, which would actually address national wealth inequality, they are sort of tapping a billionaire friend who then has a lot more sway over the policy than all of us normal voters.

31:12Paul Krugman:Dell even said that under one plan, he wanted to limit his gift to just a certain group. Initially talked about making donations to just children in Texas rather than other places. Now, a more transformative or holistic approach would be through the tax code overall and not letting the billionaires have extra sway as if they don't have enough policy power just because they are the ones chipping in. I want to bring back Paul Krugman on this story. There's plenty of caveats, but I'd love for you to speak first to the headline that this MAGA president and some conservative-leaning donors want to do what looks like a version of redistribution.

31:55Paul Krugman:And then perhaps in part two, you can tell us any of the concerns. Look, fundamentally, this is really grotesque. I don't think people are putting it in context enough. Now, we have two fundamental federal programs that make a huge difference to children, which is food stamps and Medicaid. And we have overwhelming... Right, and they're slashing all that. Yeah, we have overwhelming... Those programs, children who receive those programs grow up healthier, more productive than children who don't. And so what we're saying is, well, okay, we're going to slide. Those are savagely cut in the one big, beautiful bill.

32:32So savage cuts to the programs that we know make a huge difference in children's lives. And nevermind, that's okay, because we're going to give some kids miniature 401ks. I mean, that is a really grotesque trade-off. So what do you think is going on here?

32:49Paul Krugman:Because it has, and maybe it's just It's cynical politics, even though I'm also asking you that the economics. But it's wrapping in it in a little bit of Mom Donnie-esque, oh, we're going to move things around while you're actually doing safety net cuts that are far worse for those kids and their households. Well, it's cynical politics, and it's also this notion that only we, they don't really believe in a society where we take care of people. They just believe that people should have investments. You know, back in the days of George W. Bush, he used to talk about the ownership society. And again, the idea that we might actually make it our responsibility to make sure that kids have enough food and have adequate health care.

33:27No, we're not going to do that. But try and make some of them into members of the investor class. Well, then we're for that. I mean, I really kind of lose it here, but I think this is grotesque. It borders on obscene.

33:42Paul Krugman:Yeah, and you're bothered by it because you think it's taking whatever, one drop, 1 % of something. and trying to sort of draft off that, but not actually delivering? I mean, someone watching this might say, huh, okay, Krugman's upset, but why? Didn't he once upon a time think baby bonds along with the social safety net would be fine? Yeah, if there was an addition. But remember, the context here is fundamentally, whatever Trump may claim to be a populist, the fundamental agenda here, this is the Project 2025 agenda, the fundamental agenda is gutting the safety net, and the biggest victims of that gutting are children.

34:18And so, wow. I mean, the idea that a few billion dollars from Michael Dell, and, you know, that's a big sum even for Michael Dell, let alone for America's children, that that somehow compensates for this extremely anti-child policy, which is now the law of the land.

34:36Paul Krugman:Yeah, really interesting. And I was saying to one of my colleagues as we were preparing this, I wonder where Krugman's going to be on this. But again, you've broadened it to the whole point, which is you have this massive budget and you have all these programs and that's the way you affect people's livelihoods. And here it becomes sort of trading symbolism for that. Professor, always good to see you. Good to see you. Thank you. We're going to finish a break. But when we come back, I'm going to show you what has the president panicked. Tens of millions of music fans listening to the most popular artists today saying, don't play our song and your ice policy is wrong.

35:10Paul Krugman:That's next.

35:15Paul Krugman:For many Americans, 2024 was all about politics. And as 2025 draws to a close, many have continued to press their political activism. We have seen that out in the streets. But there are also signs that for others, it's really been a year to step away from politics and news and maybe go back to their lives, to concerts, to pop culture, to looking at stuff on their phone, other than what sometimes seems like a never-ending hellscape. One of the largest music services in the world, Spotify, has now just released its list of its most popular artists. Now, where we once counted Beatles albums in the millions on the old school charts, today, of course, largely free music is counted in the many billions.

35:59Paul Krugman:Artists like Lady Gaga, The Weeknd, Sabrina Carpenter, and the next Super Bowl performer, Bad Bunny, drawing billions of total listens. Female artists also dominating. Now, if you weren't listening to all of these all the time, all the new artists this year, we have you covered. Here's some of the top songs.

36:31Smoke, so be it, so be it. This is sick if I am to avenge it My child Why you won't always come running to me? We're going up, up, up, it's our moment You know together we're glowing Gonna be, gonna be golden Not the strangers in our heart that you so funny I've got love for you, every night for you. She's got, she's got a way. She's got a way. She's got a way.

37:18Paul Krugman:All right, you're caught up. You know, there's the old saying that people stop listening to new music after 30 or when they have kids or when they get busy. but it is easier than ever to listen to new music and even if not all of it is your cup of proverbial tea much of it is more relevant than ever to what's happening in our culture and our politics with that in mind as we mark the end of the year in this list we have a very special guest someone whose byline you've probably come across john caramonica is a renowned music critic of the new york times and has covered popular music there since 2008 he's covered everyone this year from new faces like Kalani to long-term stars like Justin Bieber and Lord, one of our favorites, Erykah Badu, who was in here.

37:59Paul Krugman:And these days, everyone has a podcast, but not everyone has a popcast with some of the top artists. Here you see Bad Bunny himself and Ed Sheeran right before, and a lot of other artists who choose to sit down with the New York Times phenomenal, musically nerdy podcast co-hosted by John. Thanks for being here. Happy to be here, Ari. Longtime reader. That's incredibly kind. Longtime viewer. Lighter enthusiast. Lighters up. Yeah. What jumps out to you and who's getting listened to most, particularly Bad Bunny on top? The thing that Spanish language music did this year was announced that it is not a secondary tier of pop music.

38:46This is primary pop music. When Bad Bunny was on our show, one of the things that he said is that it's great if you can understand every word that he says, but it's not crucial. He wants people from all parts of the spectrum to show up to his party. This is also a person who's making historically minded music about Puerto Rican music history, connecting it directly to the contemporary reggaeton and Latin trap of the moment, and making an album that appeals cross-generationally. Now define traditional reggaeton. So if you go back to what was happening in the Dominican Republic in the 90s into the early 2000s, what you had was at the time you would think of it as Caribbean hip hop, right?

39:25And then ultimately that becomes global pop music, especially when it starts to move to Columbia. The Colombian artist in the 2010 really took it and took it to what we think of as mainstream center of pop. Bad Bunny is an artist who's traversed both the underground and the mainstream versions of that style. And then this year was like, what if I look back at my island's heritage? What if I look back to Puerto Rican music from the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s and wove that together with the music that I was making before?

39:53Paul Krugman:Right. So he always was really cross-pollinating. But having one going forward, he then does this sort of throwback that resonated. What's interesting to me is I think when you and I were young and an artist hit their mid-career stride, they said, I'm going to make a heritage album. I'm going to make an album that's kind of like what I grew up with. That album felt old-fashioned. What Bad Bunny has done is he's made an album that has old reference points, contemporary reference points, and sounds like it was made today. It's very interesting when you put it that way. And then the speed of it, because some of these younger artists really get it.

40:27Paul Krugman:Oh, yeah. And we all know about the global echoes of music. You can have Paul Simon doing stuff in South Africa or going down also to Latin America. And the U.S. folk tradition then melds with that. But I think that took years and happened slowly. And now it's like zip, zip, zip. It's instantaneous. Yeah. Let's take a listen to the new Taylor, for those who haven't heard it.

40:53You were dancing through the lightning strikes. Scape is in the onyx night. But now the sky is all polite. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

41:08Paul Krugman:Taylor is inescapable. She's evolving. You are a Taylorologist. Fair? I like to think so. And you write in the paper of record, the gray lady assessing this showgirl in our midst. Quote, Quote, showgirl has hints of what a Swift album about requited love, contrast to her past, might sound like. But for now, quote, she's not quite over the taste of blood. Yes. So Taylor's in an interesting transitional moment. And you tend to think of pop stars who are that huge as maybe not having transitional moments. You think they're just big and kind of they're too big to fail, as it were. But I see Taylor albums in two categories.

41:46There are the innovation albums, your folklore, reputation, red, and then there's the in-between albums, the sort of I'm setting myself for a change. I think this is a transitional album that's incredibly pop-focused, but isn't her biggest stylistic innovation. A lot of the things that Taylor's doing right now are also being replicated out in the marketplace. She's a big Sabrina Carpenter supporter. Sabrina Carpenter, Chappell, Roan, Olivia Rodrigo. These are younger performers very much in the mold of a Taylor Swift.

42:16Paul Krugman:Is she bigger than ever but less cool? Taylor and cool is a complicated conversation. I don't know that Taylor ever wanted to be cool, and I'm not sure she ever was cool except for maybe a tiny period in the mid-2010s. For a lot of her young fans, I don't want to generalize, especially young women and girls, she's very cool. Yes. I may be thinking from the sort of like the rest of pop music, how she's viewed in the music business. I don't think she's viewed as a beacon or an avatar of cool. I think she's viewed as someone who is incredibly savvy, a great songwriter, and someone who understands how to remain emotionally authentic while still making songs that can scale into the billions.

42:56But I think she very purposely doesn't place herself at the center of cool because that can burn hot and fast, and she's trying to stick around.

43:04Paul Krugman:Cool can burn hot. Yeah. You're getting close to a Taylor lyric yourself. I like to think so. Well, I showed these headlines and this is keeps happening. And it's like, if you love Billy Joel, you notice, oh, Billy Joel, Madison Square Garden news. If you don't, it might not hit you. So for really literally tens of millions of fans, it has been noticed these headlines. If you follow Sabrina Carpenter, who's one of the big artists, she was on SNL with Paul Simon. She's a huge run. She says evil and disgusting. The way the Trump administration was trying to use her song. Rodrigo, who you just mentioned naturally, condemns Trump's use of her music for, quote, racist, hateful propaganda.

43:40Paul Krugman:You want to go to throwback? Let's go, baby. Neil Young with that protest song. At some point, does this matter and ding Trump with fans who are not super polarized, who might be 25 and haven't thought a lot about the midterms and go, wait a minute. Someone I look up to says this isn't just a difference of opinion. This person is racist, quote unquote. I think that part of the Trump cultural proposition is running roughshod over convention. And so if they're violating copyright protections in service of a political message, my sense is institutionally in the government, people don't perceive that as a problem.

44:20My sense is who's being activated on the fan side of Sabrina or Olivia. Those people are probably not oriented in this direction in the first place. I think if it was -

44:29Paul Krugman:Does it matter to their fans? I mean, Sabrina Carpenter hadn't said much against Trump until this. Then we find out she says this is evil. But you know what I'm even more, what I find more provocative, you saw what happened with Trump and Theo Vaughn. They do some Theo Vaughn audio in a ISER Department of Homeland Security video. And Theo Vaughn, someone whose political valence is, I would say, fuzzy. And some people might say he's right-leaning. Right-leaning. He came out and said, hey, man, you can't do that. That doesn't reflect my experience, doesn't reflect my views. So you think that matters to their...

45:01Paul Krugman:I think that matters. More than the... Because we don't know some of the capitalist politics. No, we can suspect. And I think on podcast this week, we had a big conversation with Ross Douthat, our conservative columnist at the Times, about can a celebrity be conservative? Is that even a viable thing in 2035? Yes, it's plenty viable. Yes. I object to the paper tiger question, but it is your podcast. Thanks. We're going to workshop headlines with you next time. How many lighters do you want? Because you can have up to four. I'm going to take these back and we're going to be... I'm going to bring you ones when we have podcasts.

45:31Paul Krugman:Great. I'd love to have podcasts. It's like Halloween candy, a John's first and not last Simon to Beat. We'll be right back. Ari signing off. Every day brings somewhere to be, and everyone counting on you to get them there. With seating for up to seven, the 2026 Jeep Grand Cherokee L keeps busy schedules moving. From early practices to late night games and the triumphant ride home. Available 4x4 capability helps you drive safely and confidently when weather shifts or plans change. The laughter, high fives, and shared wins become the memories you cherish in the 2026 Jeep Grand Cherokee L. Jeep and the Jeep Gorilla Registered Trademarks of FCA US LLC.