In short
The episode argues that Donald Trump’s approval is collapsing heading into the midterms, with Republicans facing a “deluge” of electoral losses. Host Ari Melber cites polling showing Trump about 19 points underwater and claims unpopular policies—especially potential escalation of the Iran war—are getting more airtime alongside economic pain like rising gas and diesel. It also claims Trump is being booed and heckled in public, and that Republicans are privately acknowledging trouble.
Guests
James Carville, veteran Democratic strategist and former adviser; and Norm Eisen, former Obama ethics advisor and leader of Democracy Defenders Fund.
Key claims/examples
Carville says Democrats could win more states than expected (e.g., Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas) and points to Republican senators admitting voters “barely get by.” He mocks Sen. Tom Tuberville’s “furry” airline-pilot distraction. Eisen discusses court fights over press access (CNN/others) and argues taxpayer-funded Trump self-promotion ads likely violate federal law. The episode also features AI-in-war concerns (e.g., alleged AI role in a bombing of a girls’ school) and calls for AI oversight.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOTrump's Decline and Midterm Implications
0:00 to 0:21
Discussion on Trump's cratering approval ratings and its effects on upcoming elections.
“My coffee, my schedule, and my treatment.”
Trump's Decline and Midterm Implications
1:06 to 3:30
Discussion on Trump's cratering approval ratings and its effects on upcoming elections.
“Well, the timing isn't working for the Republicans, because while Trump has been in a steady decline over a bunch of issues, his worst approval numbers are hitting right now in the homestretch, 19 points underwater.”
James Carville's Insights on the Election
3:30 to 8:01
James Carville shares his perspective on the political landscape and upcoming elections.
“The truth is that wherever he goes, even in red areas, nothing's going to feel like home to Donald Trump, who clearly needs adulation.”
Analyzing Republican Distractions
8:01 to 12:01
Discussion on Republican strategies and statements reflecting desperation and distraction.
“Jeannie Hennon-Hosel may win for governor.”
Economic Concerns and Election Dynamics
12:01 to 14:00
Exploration of economic issues affecting the election and how they resonate with voters.
“James, I'm going to fit in one of our shortest breaks, 90 seconds, and we're back with more karma.”
Economic Implications of Diesel Prices
14:00 to 17:32
Explore how diesel prices impact the economy and voters' perceptions.
“So is he almost spinning for a loss, number one?”
Trump's Press Ban and Legal Battles
18:07 to 20:06
Discuss the implications of Trump's press ban and ongoing legal challenges.
“Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start?”
Ethics and Taxpayer Funded Ads
20:06 to 22:24
Analyze the legality and ethics behind Trump's taxpayer-funded campaign ads.
“Then the attorney general also made some admissions.”
The Role of the Press in Democracy
22:24 to 28:00
Examine the crucial role of the press and challenges it faces today.
“should spend public money on private ads for themselves.”
Taxpayer Funded Ads and Corruption
28:00 to 29:40
Discussing the implications of taxpayer-funded political ads and public anger over corruption.
“Yeah, and I think a lot of folks agree with you and they're looking for who's taking action, which you've been doing in court.”
Show all 16 chapters
The AI Debate Begins
29:40 to 30:20
Introduction to the discussion about the current issues surrounding AI and its consequences.
“We're going to fit in a break when we come back.”
Dystopian AI Realities
30:20 to 32:30
Exploring the current use of AI in military decisions and its real-world implications.
“A tool for building weapons, the double talk there from these AI leaders.”
Expert Insight on AI Oversight
32:30 to 34:40
Interview with AI expert Max Tegmark about the current state of AI and the need for oversight.
“A fully autonomous killer drone aided by AI was used to kill three Ukrainians by Russia, the Times reporting on that, guided by an experimental AI system.”
Overtrusting AI in Military Operations
34:40 to 38:10
Discussion on the dangers of overtrusting AI in military decisions and its consequences.
“I want to bring in our expert tonight, Max Tegmark, is a physics professor focusing on AI at MIT, founded the Future of Life Institute.”
The Role of Tech Companies in AI Development
38:10 to 41:56
Examining the influence of tech companies on AI regulation and safety standards.
“And it goes to I'll jump in to say it goes to what sometimes happens in large systems where people get a false sense of confidence and say, well, we ran it through over here.”
Music, Politics, and Contest Winners
42:47 to 45:01
Discover how music intersects with political themes and hear from contest winners.
“Here at MSNOW, we've been coming out into the field to see you guys.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00I like things my way. My coffee, my schedule, and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self-injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo Pre-Filled Syringe, which contains F-Gartigamide Alpha and Hyaluronidase QVFC. It's injected under your skin, subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space, on my time. It's my treatment, my way. Visit VivgardMyWay.com. That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T MyWay.com. and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hattrulo. Brought to you by Argenics. A rug shouldn't just fit your room. It should make your home feel finished. Ernesta creates designer quality rugs custom fit to the exact size of your space.
0:38So every room feels beautifully pulled together. Explore Ernesta's range of options, all ready to be custom cut, finished, and delivered to your door in as little as two weeks. Start with five samples for just$10 and get$50 toward your rug when you order. Visit Ernesta.com today. That's E-R-N-E-S-T-A dot com. Welcome to The Beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melber, and we begin with Trump's cratering approval as we are in the midterm homestretch. And timing can be everything in life or politics. Well, the timing isn't working for the Republicans, because while Trump has been in a steady decline over a bunch of issues, his worst approval numbers are hitting right now in the homestretch, 19 points underwater.
1:19And some of his least popular policies are getting the most airtime, including the Iran war. asked about whether there could be more strikes on Iran, in other words, a potential escalation of this unpopular war. Trump just telling Axios, I'm always thinking about it, not exactly dialing it down. Then you have the economic pain. Gas prices still going up. Diesel prices clobbering. Trump's bag of faithful, as the Washington Post put it in a new report. A Republican telling the Washington Sun, no one feels good about November now. and the widening of the coalition or the revolt against President Trump in his second term is visible in more than just numbers.
2:00That's data. We all track that. I can tell you the candidates and their campaigns track it. But when Trump leaves the bubble of the White House, he also is running into a very different world than, say, the November of the presidential race. Take Saturday, where he was booed by a crowd at this Texas-Tennessee college football game. The very next day, he faced a heckler at an Illinois golf event.
2:35Now, alone, any random anecdote or person yelling or activist doesn't tell you everything. But together with the numbers I just showed you, Donald Trump, who did have a comeback and who at times has benefited from the same kind of Nixonian, calls of a silent majority or some group out there that's more down with him than maybe the coasts or the so-called elites realize. Well, now we're in the opposite lane. It is completely socially acceptable, normal, at a Southern game to boo this unpopular war president. Negativity may have gotten to Trump. He was caught on a hot mic discussing a desire to basically jet, leave the event, and get home.
3:22Now he can go home. Is Washington home? Is Florida home? Is New York his former home home? The truth is that wherever he goes, even in red areas, nothing's going to feel like home to Donald Trump, who clearly needs adulation. And if he can't get it for real, he'll try to fake it. And he's demanded Republicans continue to pretend that everything's going fine when it's not, which is the first problem. if you have a campaign like this in a hole, stop digging. Joining me now, legendary Democratic strategist James Carville, who knows his way around these elections and the economy. Welcome back, James.
4:01Always glad to be back, Ari. Getting ready for the big election day. Yeah, well, I mentioned timing matters a lot, right? You don't want your best lead or your opponent's worst problems to come a year out when people are going to forget them. What do you think of this timing for the midterms and what has been a revolt? against Trump? You know, honestly, I think things are getting set pretty good. And so when we look to six weeks from tomorrow, you had a rain event in New York a couple of days ago, all right? It can mist, it can have a shower, or you can have a deluge. You had a deluge. That's what we're going to have in November.
4:40It's going to be a deluge. And I think that most of the Republicans are kind of aware of that. And everybody is just strapping in. But, you know, the Fox viewers are not aware of that. I watch it all the time. I read the Chiron, and they're saying, race for Congress remains close. Okay, they're going to be a big surprise in a lot of houses come the night of November 3rd, I guess it is. Yeah, there's a gap there. The Republicans who are in cycle, who are running, know about it. The conservative or MAGA-aligned podcasters are way more vocal about it than, say, Fox or the traditional, you know, the traditional narrators, if you will.
5:23I want to play a couple Republicans that are, these are name-brand Republicans. This isn't like we had to go and find some rando and some down-ballot race. Here's top recognizable Senate Republicans. Take a listen. People are getting really good at barely getting by, and we've got to address it, and we haven't done anything to address it. The American people are pretty forgiving to a point, but they want results. I don't know how many Alaskans are thinking about the Kennedy Center and whether it should be demolished. James? Well, those three senators all have something in common. They actually have an IQ below room temperature.
6:06I mean, Senator Kennedy is one of the brightest, most educated people in the entire, and he may be a Louisiana, may be a Republican, may be a conservative. He's not a fool. He knows right where this is and same thing goes for other people. I mean, the smarter ones, the ones that live in the real world know what they're faced with and I mean, Mike Johnson has gone around the country like a chicken with his head chopped off. He don't know where he is but I'll tell you where he's not going to be. He's not going to be in the Speaker's chair come January of 2027. That I can assure you. Yeah. Yeah. You've clashed and campaigned against Karl Rove over the years.
6:42It seems like he might have come more your way than you going towards him. That's just a ballpark in it. But here's how I want to play. Well, for your reaction, Bush veteran Karl Rove, and then your reaction on the other side. Let's take a look. 2006, you think George W. Bush was popular? No. And we understood that. So we told people, we'll come in and do a private fundraiser for you and arm you up, but you do what you need to do in order to get elected. And that's not the way this guy operates. A president in a year like this ought to recede as a political figure. It's hard for him to do that.
7:22He likes doing it the other way around. James. Well, first of all, Colin Caron, a very good friend of Mary and I, so I have some personal affection for Colin. and I have a lot of respect for him, is a political operative. He's in a position that he can be utterly truthful because he's not dependent on anybody and he's telling the truth. This is what he's faced with. This is what he's looking down. Carl's worked all of his life to build a dominant Republican party in the state of Texas and he understands that it's all at risk now. I mean, easily, probably will lose the Senate race. And when I come to grips with it, Jeannie Hennon-Hosel may win for governor.
8:04All kinds of stuff. All right, when I leave here tonight, I'm doing a fundraiser for Scott Colm, the Democratic candidate in Mississippi, and I'm doing something for Jamie Davis, the Democratic candidate in Louisiana. They both might win. Somebody has got, and the same thing is true in Arkansas. This map is getting bigger by the day, and everybody's mumbling around talking about Maine and North Carolina and Georgia, and meanwhile, the map is moving to Mississippi, be Arkansas, Louisiana, South Carolina, all kinds of places that we never anticipated. And I hope that they play into a big map. One thing I did here that's encouraging, I'll tell you, your view is this.
8:42Sunday, I think, was the biggest fundraising day in the history of the Democratic Party. I think they had a very successful, it wasn't small donors, but we have a terrible financial disadvantage going into right now, but I think we're catching up pretty good. I really do, and I'm very encouraged by that. Yeah. So you mentioned those fundamentals and the economy, even Republicans talking about that and the war, food safety and data centers and tech, all of these real, relatable, everyday issues. And they all run against the Republican incumbents. So then you say, OK, well, what are they talking about?
9:18Well, some of them are just kind of throwing out whatever they can, whatever they think might stick to the wall or a version of what they think worked on distraction in the past. And so I want to play for your reaction, Senator Tuberville, who was talking about what is an alleged or sort of his view of a, again, this is the news. I'm just going to say what you're going to see it. What he says is a sexual kink out there. And he says he's concerned about it. And then he ties it to airlines. I'll let him take it from here. Many airline pilots Flight attendants And air traffic controllers Are part of the furry community Lord help us When you walk onto a commercial flight It's possible that the pilot flying your plane Could have a deranged fetish of dressing up Like an animal All you gotta do is look at their convention They had a pilot's section at their convention this past week in Minnesota.
10:26James, what's going on here? Is this campaign distraction, desperation? Your view. All right, so Senator Soberville, is he dumber than concrete or is he dumber than a box of rocks? I would take his name to equate his IQ. I think a T-U-B-E-R is a potato. that's that's an apt name for him potato he's that dumb i mean he's i gotta tell you as a southerner and as a football fan as an sec fan as a proud guy every time i see that guy just want to call under the table man shut up you're embarrassing the whole region of the country not just good people out of valley anybody that has anything to do with it talking about pilots and And far he's, I have no idea.
11:13Somebody, maybe he's got a wife or maybe he's got kids, can kind of pull this guy aside and help him out a little bit. But that boy ain't right at all, not at all. Well, I guess they think this is like some of the attacks they did in 24, trying to turn it to culture or turn it to maybe, he didn't talk a lot about Democrats in that clip, but it's designed to sort of foment the idea of if you change teams, you change the government, you're going to get some other agenda, I guess, is the pitch. I don't know, because what he says is no one can make it out. It'd take a thousand, you know, AI data scientists a thousand years to make anything out of him.
11:52They'd have to have five data centers to run it through to figure out what that guy is saying, because no model, no human being can figure that out. None. Yeah, well, that's an honest answer. James, I'm going to fit in one of our shortest breaks, 90 seconds, and we're back with more karma. All right. All right.
12:38this is AI. I want to warn people, that's the world we're in. This is not real. But this is a video that's AI generated that sort of imagines him partying, as you see with the champagne, Gilded Era, shot of Trump, the ladies. It's become quite an unforced error for the White House. What does this tell you? Well, I'll tell you what's not AI generated. It's our Indian FBI director with the hockey team and everything that he does. So, yeah, that's fun. We can all have fun. But we don't need AI. These people are such clowns. You can't beat them with AI. The reality of it is much more than what they made up about.
13:18Just look at what's going on. And look at Bobby Kennedy or look at Pete Hedgsmith. I mean, the reality of what we face is it doesn't need to be exaggerated, I don't think. I think it's just horrific enough on its own. Hmm. This was Thune, of course, a leader of this Republican Party, also talking about the economy. Take a look. The races are, it's more about, it's, you know, it is affordability issues. It's the price of diesel in places like Iowa and Kansas and Nebraska and the Midwest, Minnesota. And so I think that's the issue. And what's happening, Iran is sort of trumped everything else that's going on.
14:01So is he almost spinning for a loss, number one? And number two, is this Trump's economy? Well, the man is burdened with something that Senator Tuberville is not. He actually has a brain and an IQ. I just want to say one thing, diesel. No one buys it, but everybody talks about it. When's the last time you know anybody that bought a gallon of diesel? Frankly, very few people do, but it so affects everything, transportation to agriculture to you name it, and it's just become part of modern nomenclature. And I think at some level, although people don't have any idea what diesel looks like or smells like or anything about it, they know this affects their lives in a profound way, and they are 100 % correct, and someone knows that.
14:51And so this is your thing. This is an economy election. Well, of course it is. And if you just something as simple as diesel, when it goes up or petroleum, it's in fertilized, it's in transportation, it's everything that you do. And money that goes to that can't go to something else. and people understand what they're paying right now for anything over what they were paying in February is 100 % attributable to the stupid war that we're actually losing. We're losing a war, and we're paying billions and billions of dollars for a lost war. At least if you're going to pay money, you should win the war.
15:31That's the least you can do. We're not doing that. That would be a good thing. Yeah, don't start it. If you start it, win it. If you say you're going to end it, end it, which they haven't been able to do either. James, we covered a lot of ground. And when you don't know what someone's talking about, you know, you're that rare guest who says, I don't know what he's talking about. So we get the truth from you. Neither is anybody else, but that's okay. I think we're going to have a different life after November 30th. Thank you. Yes, sir. Have a great week, James. Thanks again. Our thanks to James starting the week with us.
16:06I'll tell folks what's coming up. Heat on these tech leaders as we hear more and more doomsday talk from some of the tech people who are still raising money barreling ahead. And that includes now, you know, it's a mainstream item when it's on SNL. They're joking and roasting how this is a tech problem that has been noticed in the wider culture. Sam Altman, myself, all the major AI players, we have talked about this extensively and we are all on the same page here. We do not condone what we are doing.
16:41Who's going to stop us? We also have the attorney general in a First Amendment pickle and a top Republican senator condemning Donald Trump taking your tax dollars to fund these campaign ads. I don't think any public official, including President Trump or Kristi Noem or John Kennedy, should spend public money on private ads for themselves.
17:11I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule, and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self-injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo Pre-Filled Syringe, which contains F-Gartigamide Alpha and Hyaluronidase QVFC. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment, my way. Visit VivGuardMyWay.com. That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T MyWay.com. And talk to your doctor about VivGuard Hytrulo. Brought to you by Argenics. A rug shouldn't just fit your room. It should make your home feel finished. Ernesta creates designer-quality rugs custom-fit to the exact size of your space, so every room feels beautifully pulled together.
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18:37Donald Trump lost the first round in that press ban. Today, three news outlets impacted by the initial ban face a deadline regarding their injunction request, whether they seek more than the current temporary block of what is a likely illegal ban. Now, the issue goes on. A judge has ruled that those outlets, CNN, Politico, and the one you're watching, MSNOW, have to be let into the White House. And so this is one of those areas where the rule of law is holding because after some initial confusion, the White House did admit the reporters back the day that that ruling came down. But the Trump administration is trying to brainstorm other ways to target at least some of the outlets, including now blocking CNN from boarding Air Force One over the weekend.
19:23Now, here's something you have to keep in mind. If it sounds like the White House is continuing to brainstorm ways to target the press while following the letter of the court ruling, that is apparently what they're doing. And while that may sound concerning to people who respect the free press and free speech in this country, the headline is they did follow the actual court ruling to let the folks back in. And now we get another battle over whether this other mechanism going after the plane access is legal or not. The attorney general went on TV claiming that this is all still about national security.
19:56We showed you, again, the court ruling, not our view, just reporting on what the judge said, that there was no valid national security evidence even submitted by the White House. Then the attorney general also made some admissions. Take a look. The president has every right to decide who gets to fly on his plane, and it is national security. The president has said is that he is sick and tired of certain media outlets just refusing to report accurate news. And so, look, it is a privilege. It is a privilege to be in the White House for anybody. He actually slammed a lot in there, and I'll give you a brief legal fact check.
20:37One, false. It is not a privilege to report from the general areas of the White House. the recent court ruling reasserted that. The attorney general, of course, a lawyer knows better. Two, under current case law, a president may be able to restrict reporters from these more select areas, like the actual Oval Office, which is a small room, and Air Force One, which cannot hold every reporter who might even want to go on there. And so, fact check, true under case law, that may be something they can restrict. Now the judge rejected the White House's defenses on due process and sent those reporters back under court order to report the White House.
21:20Think about that. We're in a country where it took a court order to force the government to let these normal reporters, these people with press badges who were reporting there the day before, back in. Meanwhile, Trump is in other legal hot water for taking taxpayer funds to run his own ads. Even MAGA allies alarmed. This is the final battle. We will grow off the sick political class that hates our country. We will rout the fake news media, and we will liberate America from these villains once and for all. You are looking at what is likely illegal. We showed you just a brief part of it, along with the confession that this was paid for by the U.S.
22:04government, your tax dollars for a midterm-timed piece of campaign propaganda. This is one of those things that is basically indefensible. Current precedent suggests probably unlawful. That will be tested. And top MAGA-allied Republicans, they're not even defending this. I don't think any public official, including President Trump or Kristi Noem or John Kennedy, should spend public money on private ads for themselves. Pretty straightforward. And this is one of those times that you have, especially in the second term, where if you follow it out, you go, well, can this even be legal? And if not, how are they doing it?
22:52And how are they getting away with it? Now, I just showed you the rule of law holding on the press ban. In a matter of days, the president of the United States, the leader of the free world, the guy with his finger on the nuclear button, had to back down and let in those reporters because the rule of law held. But with all these different things coming out of this White House, it takes action. Ethics experts say that that ad, of course, could violate federal laws. Former Obama ethics official Norm Eisen says the president and his administration have gone from breaking the law to trampling it. And he is also part of a group that has taken many actions over these years to hold this president accountable.
23:28Bull Norm is here next.
23:40We're more determined than ever to cover this administration, to cover our government. And I'm really grateful to have that right. Yeah. Freedom of the press to be able to be able to do my job. You are a hero to a lot of people here right now because, I mean, we talk about freedom of the press like it is a sacrament, like it is something esoteric, like it is something that is a spiritually important component of who we are as a country. And it is all of those things. Yeah. But it is also something that goes away if it is not practiced. Our colleagues Rachel and Laura speaking this weekend in Texas about these First Amendment battles.
24:29I'm joined now by Norm Eisen, an ambassador, author. He was a top ethics advisor to President Obama. He writes The Contrariant on Substack and leads Democracy Defenders Fund, which, as I mentioned in setting you up earlier, Norm, has brought some very key cases, filed briefs, really taken this fight over many issues from ethics to immigration in this second term. Welcome back. Thanks for having me back.
25:19of that court order. Walk us through where we are and also tell us about what your group's been doing. Well, Ari, we have been fighting at Democracy Defenders Fund an action for the First Amendment, winning the reinstatement of Karen Atiyah, filing briefs in many of these cases where there's attacks on the White House press corps, litigating over government outlets like the Voice of America, where they're supposed to have statutory independence that the administration has attacked. And the reason we do that goes to what's going on in the White House, solidarity. This was another court win for the outlets that were banned.
26:08But they're finding a way to cheat on CNN by excluding them partially. I think it's incumbent on all of the journalists to stand together, lest we hang separately. I say that as the publisher of The Contrarian. Don't let the White House split off CNN or any other outlet because first they'll come for them. Then they'll come for you with or without a quarter. Let me jump in. Let me jump in on that. Then I'll let you finish the the entities, the news outlets targeted, as I mentioned, did file together. So they're normally during the day, you know, competitors, but they filed together on this First Amendment issue in the pool, including Fox, initially banded together.
Read the full transcript
26:52What do you say about the actual problem? If we want to kind of nerd out and go into the details, which is whether we whether you like it or not. The current pending case law, which is on appeal in the Associated Press case, does give the government more latitude to restrict, as I mentioned, those other areas like like the Oval Office or a plane. Ari, we filed a brief in that Associated Press case that sets the floor. But the other press outlets don't have to do the bare minimum. They can do more. And the White House is targeting. The latest is CNN trying to separate, trying to peel them off. And I don't think the media should do that in the litigation area where we have over 300 legal matters.
27:47We regularly partner with all of the other voting rights and civil rights and democracy groups. There's strength in numbers. And I think it's incumbent on the press to do that and deny Trump the ability to single out a CNN. So don't settle for the floor. Yeah, and I think a lot of folks agree with you and they're looking for who's taking action, which you've been doing in court. How about this taxpayer funded ad?
28:21Well, it's like nothing any of us have ever seen today at The Contrary. And I publish an op-ed with the Clinton advisor and the George W. Bush ethics advisor and myself and an ethicist who actually worked in the first months of the second Trump administration. We all agree Congress has made it perfectly clear you cannot use Ari Melber's money and Norm Eisen's money and over 300 million Americans' taxpayer dollars to fund a political ad. That's just what Donald Trump has been doing. If there was any question about it, he's done a series of them. The most recent one is actually a recycled political ad from the campaign.
29:08I mean, this is against the law, and I think it aggravates Americans. Eighty-one percent of Americans say they're paying more because of corruption. This is a good example. Why should we pay for this? Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I mean, people are upset about the corruption, and this one's blatant, so we'll see how it gets tested. Norm, always good to have you, and a lot of these issues are live right now. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Ari. Appreciate it. We're going to fit in a break when we come back. Well, we're already learning about AI. A lot of doomsday talk about the future, but what's failing right now and why is there so much democratic pushback?
29:50Some of it seems to be working. That's next.
30:01If we can pressure lawmakers to create guardrails, we will be able to stop me. Sam Altman, myself, all the major AI players, we have talked about this extensively, and we are all on the same page here. We do not condone what we are doing. AI is not a weapon. It's a tool, a tool for building weapons. And I urge you to urge me to stop. A tool for building weapons, the double talk there from these AI leaders. That was, of course, an impression. You can tell the backlash is fully mainstream when it's milked for laughs on SNL. That was just this weekend. Trump, though, may not have gotten the memo.
30:38In fact, the real-life CEO, not the impression there that you saw, held a dinner with Trump last night. They met at the White House. Trump also having tech leaders tomorrow on AI. But the entire approach is defensive and boosterish, not playing the role that so many Americans clearly now want, which is a government, regardless of party, that looks out for the American people. Emphasis on people, not bots, and defense, jobs, humanity, labor, our creative roles in society, rather than just going along with some inevitable doomsday capitalist agenda. Trump does not seem aware of that, and that people are also really kind of creeped out by how many of these tech leaders openly talk about a 10 % or higher risk of the apocalypse like a T2 movie.
31:34The system goes online on August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2.14 a.m. Eastern Time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug. Skynet fights back. That's the science fiction And if you listen to a lot of what's coming out of these Very wealthy capitalized tech firms It's a doomsday about something like that Happening sometime in the future But here's the thing that I want to emphasize in our report tonight We've discussed many of these things But for all the talk about the future And we even gave time to the anthropic whistleblower on this program A lot of the science fiction looking at the future is being supplanted by today's science facts.
32:27You don't need to fear the future. Look at what we're finding out right now. A fully autonomous killer drone aided by AI was used to kill three Ukrainians by Russia, the Times reporting on that, guided by an experimental AI system. They write about that dystopian future where killer robots could roam the skies and make these life or death decisions. Now, the problem is, again, it's not a dystopian future. Russia's unleashing that. And if you say, well, I guess we can't really control what most other countries do. AI has quietly been integrated into the U.S. Pentagon system in ways that Americans may not know.
33:06A big, important Bloomberg report about the current unpopular Iran war includes details about AI that was used in what was clearly an erroneous, mistaken attack where the U.S. bombed a girl's school, which is not a military target. Indeed, if you did that on purpose, it would be a war crime. Most of the people around the Pentagon have said it was a type of accident and that it's under investigation. Bloomberg reporting that the issue may have been U.S. personnel over-relying on the, quote, AI embedded in their system, which is made by one of those big tech firms, Palantir, allowing users to, quote, view and coordinate complex military ops.
33:47In past conflicts, preparing lists of proposed targets took hours for staffers to complete, Bloomberg notes, but in this attack, much of the work was condensed into a few minutes via Maven. Palantir denies that their software is at fault. But if you look at headlines like that, the AI is already being used to make life and death decisions. And while there's a lot of secrecy around war in general, and certainly from the Trump administration Pentagon, the question here is whether, as the headline says, when you look at the kill chain that bombed a girl's school, was AI not only a net negative, but did it do something that Americans people have experienced in your own lives, which is the reliance on the tool supplanted the actual human judgment you would need that might, might have prevented the bombing that killed innocent children.
34:43I want to bring in our expert tonight, Max Tegmark, is a physics professor focusing on AI at MIT, founded the Future of Life Institute. He spoke about AI as part of those UN gatherings just last week, and he wrote Life 3.0, being human in the age of AI. Welcome. Thank you. What do you think of the reality that these problems are here with us now, and there seems to be sometimes a real emphasis on looking forward to the worst doomsday rather than considering if we need more oversight of Palantir at the Pentagon? Yeah, you're so right. It's important to remember that the things that are happening now, machines making their own decisions of whom to kill, or 1 ,200 rogue bots swarming out of an American company and going on an international hacking spree without any humans even knowing about it, they would have totally sounded like science fiction four years ago when AI wasn't even good enough to talk.
35:46We didn't even have chat GPT, which means that the things that... might happen in four years time will almost certainly sound like science fiction right now things like ai killing a billion people or or all people and so the things that people used to warn about maybe happening in the future have started happening and that's why we're seeing this massive bipartisan groundswell of people saying we gotta change course yeah halter says this was terrible You could imagine the response in America if a girl's school was bombed, and then the other side says, well, they didn't mean to, or the reporting is maybe the tech made it worse.
36:30This is their co-founder. Take a listen. Obviously, it was terrible what happened to those children, and you do hold people responsible. But it could be the case if somebody made 99 really good choices and one bad choice, and it led to a horrible thing. So it's very easy from the outside to judge these things when you're not there in the fog of war for dealing with this. Yeah, if I can just be blunt. Go ahead. Yeah, we are over-trusting AI. It's the new shiny thing, and there's a lot of pressure to integrate it into everything, including military decisions, when it's just not ready for it. And it wasn't just that this was a human tragedy, killing over 100 innocent schoolgirls.
37:16It was also the biggest single military fiasco in the war for the U.S. if you wanted regime change in Iran. What is it that is going to do more than anything else to prevent Iranian people from rising up against their government than finding out on day one of the war that over 100 schoolgirls were killed, right? And the Bloomberg reporting was very shocking to me. We had seen Washington Post previously suggest that this was probably Anthropics Claude that was integrated into Project Maven. But Bloomberg reported that there had been 10 people at Central Command whose job it was to assess potential civilian harm.
37:57And nine of them had been laid off. There was only one, but none of them actually looked at this recommendation that came out of AI before the school was bombed. And, you know, so even if you don't care at all about the human tragedy of this, it's really bad for our military forces to do this kind of overtrust. So sure. And also it is. And it goes to I'll jump in to say it goes to what sometimes happens in large systems where people get a false sense of confidence and say, well, we ran it through over here. So it's on them. Right. It's not it's as if that answers it. And then when it misfires, then who is it on?
38:39Because the United States is responsible for what would have been a war crime if it were on purpose. While I have you, I want to get to another big part of this debate, which is the tech companies. SNL joked about it, saying who's going to stop us, but also we got to keep going. And there are skeptics who say this really comes back to greed. And there's a kind of a dance going on. Steve Eisman was a big critic of certain aspects of Wall Street. He's looked at this. Take a listen to what he says about the recent talk of slowdown from the valley. The claim that Dario Mote and Sam Altman are making about slowing down is just false on its face.
39:19The entire future, the entire future of anthropic and open AI depends on there not being any slowdown. They both have hundreds of billions of commitments to hyperscalers. Open AI alone represents 300 billion of Oracle's 600 billion plus backlog. If they were to slow down, they could not fulfill those commitments. Is this capitalist rush, what in the old days people just call greed, at this point a net negative for research and development, which happens in universities and other places at a pace more commensurate with the risk? I think we're never going to be able to eliminate greed, but what we have managed to do with all other industries is put incentives in place.
40:08So the companies who are people who are greedy and want to make money have an incentive to make things safe. Pharma companies, I bet a lot of those investors are also pretty greedy, but they know that the way to make the big bucks is to pass the clinical trial rather than fail the clinical trial. That's how they make the money. And because of that, they put a lot of talent and resources into getting rid of bad side effects of medicines and so on. And the exact same thing would happen with AI if we actually had safety standards saying you can only make money off of your AI. Once you've demonstrated that it's not going to increase suicide in teenagers or have an AI girlfriend, it's not going to teach terrorists to make bioweapons.
40:47it's not going to over claim how certain it is that this is not a girl school. You know, the U.S. military obviously wants controllable AI tools, not some sort of weirdo, super intelligent being that they don't understand how it's going to work and they might lose control over. And it's exactly the same on the consumer side. Yeah, and I have to fit in a break, but as you said, this comes back to rules and regs. A lot of Americans want more rules to protect both labor and safety. And as you say, if you make that the incentive, maybe you get a slightly better model. We're not there, that's for sure.
41:24Max, thanks for joining us. I got to finish a break when we come back. Something about the MSNOW community. I saw a lot of you guys in Texas this weekend. We got an announcement.
41:35I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule, and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self-injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre-filled syringe, which contains F-Gartigamide Alpha and Hyaluronidase QVFC. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment, my way. Visit VivGartMyWay.com. That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T MyWay.com. And talk to your doctor about VivGart Hytrulo. Brought to you by Argenics. Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra volume meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just$5.
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42:53Here at MSNOW, we've been coming out into the field to see you guys. We just spent time with a lot of you who visit us in Texas. And MSNOW is also partnering with the Power of the People Festival in Maryland. That's this Saturday. It features Bruce Springsteen, Dave Matthews, Joan Baez, and many more. and tonight we actually have five winners from MS Now's essay contest who are going to get tickets to what is already a sold-out event. We asked what song is meaningful in America right now and here are some of the winners. Mary from New York went with, It's the end of the world as I know it. She writes, I'm no longer certain I feel fine, but I still hear possibility in the line.
43:31The next world hasn't been completely decided.
43:40It's the end of my house. I feel fine.
43:59Many of you wrote in Tara from Virginia, chose Sam Cooke's A Change Is Gonna Come. she gets a ticket, as does Guillermo from California, who chose Killing in the Name by Rage Against the Machine. Roger from Wisconsin chose another classic, Buffalo Springfolds for What It's Worth. And Will from North Carolina also wins a ticket, having chosen a classic protest anthem, Bob Marley's War. You know, in that song, Marley sings that until basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all, there will be war. and he lists the preconditions of peace. An interesting footnote as we look at the intersection of music and politics, Marley sang that song but didn't write it.
44:43It was actually largely adapted from a speech by Ethiopian leader Haile Selassiei. There is a conversation in music, culture, and politics. We're excited to give out those tickets to those of you who participated and I will be there this next weekend, so of course we'll keep you posted. That does it for us. Thanks for watching The Beat with Ari Melbo here on MS Now.
45:32Brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council.
From the publisher
September 28, 2026; MS NOW’s Ari Melber reports on President Trump’s declining approval ratings as the midterms draw closer and is joined by legendary Democratic strategist James Carville. Plus, Melber delivers a special report on the backlash to AI and is joined by MIT’s Max Tegmark.
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