Trump Steams as Epstein Uproar Dominates WH, Media and MAGA

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0:41Quote today, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, number one rating based on 2024 filings with State Departments of Insurance. Welcome to The Beat. I'm Ari Melber. I also want to say, good to be back with everyone. I want to give a special thanks to Melissa Murray and Antonia Hilton, who sat in. If you happen to catch any MSNBC in the last week or week and a half, they held down the fort on this program to great effect, working with our team and our guests and experts and journalists. So thanks to them. I'm back with you. And as I was saying to Nicole, happy to be back. Plenty going on.

1:14We begin with Trump slipping into what has become the unlikely political quicksand. As you know, you follow the news. There have been many controversies and policy problems and failures in these first 150 plus days of the Trump administration. But the political problem that clearly is the largest for him on the center right, the right, and now engulfing really his entire DOJ is the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Today, there are new reports Trump is, quote, fuming at the uproar, taking down him, his agenda, his presidency at this point. And while there are many different ways to cut up this scandal, what you can see very clearly is that this one has virtually no typical defenders of the president.

1:56One podcaster says it is Trump's biggest bipartisan scandal this year, meaning that the outrage runs from the MAGA right to the center right, where there are sometimes critiques of Trump, to Republicans who were never with Trump to begin with, to the center left, to the far left, to legal experts. The press has been all over the story from The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, New York Times, all across TV. Demands for information coming from elected Democrats and Republicans and MAGA leaders. And now the disturbing comments from Trump today while he's in Scotland. He was faced with these Epstein questions.

2:29When you are the president, the job goes with you. And even a master of PR distraction like Donald Trump has found he cannot get away from this story, Even if there are credible accusations that he and people in his administration are abusing power, cooking up fake stories and fake investigations just to try to get anyone talking about something else. It's clearly not working. It's not working tonight on this broadcast, for example, because we always try to just follow the big stories and facts, not the bouncing ball distractions. But quite frankly, it's not working in general. And when you deal with someone tied to this sex trafficking scandal, the person who has faced the largest legal accountability, Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's co-conspirator, it would be baseline obvious for any responsible leader in any party to say that justice is served and she will serve out her term in prison.

3:19But Donald Trump, for whatever reason, is now unable to do that. You may have noticed this story came up last week. It's come up again tonight with these questions where after interviewing her at the Trump DOJ and after all of this scrutiny, Donald Trump won't rule out a potential pardon or commutation for her. And Epstein victims warn that she is a convicted perjurer. Trump won't rule out the pardon. I want to show the totality of what he said, as mentioned recently, and then again today. Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell? It's something I haven't thought about.

3:54It's really something I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about. Mr. President, you can clearly rule out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell when you land it. Is that something you would ever consider? Pardon for who? For Ghislaine Maxwell. Well, I'm allowed to give her a pardon, but nobody's approached me with it. Nobody's asked me about it. it's in the news about that, that aspect of it. But right now, it would be inappropriate to talk about it. That's a lot of words. I'll get to that. I'm going to show you what the attorney says in a moment. But first, let me just say something about what we heard from the president.

4:34That's a lot of words without just saying convicted people in this Epstein saga, whether you call them perjurers or sex traffickers or co-conspirators, but people convicted for these horrific crimes, which so many people say or claim to care about, people convicted will not get out early, will not get leniency. If you've ever followed pardon stories, it is usually people who have been wrongly convicted or convicted and overcharged. So they serve many years for something small, say something nonviolent. That's typically what you cover in law and journalism about pardon stories. But it's usually very easy for a politician or president to rule out pardons for people rightfully convicted of the most heinous crimes.

5:12He wouldn't do it last week, as I showed you. He wouldn't do it today. That is itself suspicious. That's full stop. Now here, let me show you that quote we were putting up here because I want you to see this. Also news. Her attorney, who's still trying to appeal this case to the high court, says we're appealing to the president himself to recognize how profoundly unjust it is to scapegoat Maxwell for Epstein's crimes. And the DOJ official who interviewed her is not just some person falling up on the case. Indeed, they also recently fired the prosecutor who successfully won this case. If you care about the victims, if you care about the actual underlying sex crimes, right, you've had people who've worked diligently on this case for years in the background, not on TV, not in the conspiracy theories online.

5:58They ousted that prosecutor, Ms. Comey, but they sent in Donald Trump's former criminal defense attorney, who's considered very loyal to him, who now is a top DOJ official, Deputy AG Todd Blanche. And they gave her limited immunity to talk, even though they've already done all this. Remember, the DOJ has already completed this whole case. If there was any reason to give her immunity for special information or info on other people, they already did that when they had the pressure of her case. Democrat Dick Durbin wants the tapes and transcripts of what are these unusually out-of-process, sort of suspiciously timed, new Trump-DOJ interviews with her.

6:39And Trump clearly did not rule out a commutation or potential pardon. I'm allowed to do that is very different than saying, of course I won't do that. You could ask a president, take Trump out of it. Hey, are you planning to nuke Canada tomorrow? and they would say, no, why would you even ask? Or no, I can rule that out. You could also say, well, legally, the Constitution gives the president the authority to bomb other countries. That's true, but a very strange way to respond to something that up until very recently, nobody was talking about, which is entering the Epstein case to help out an Epstein co-conspirator.

7:17That's where this has landed now today. The president of the United States suspiciously refusing to rule out helping Jeffrey Epstein's most guilty, convicted, infamous helper. Mag is in a frenzy. And the DOJ has contradicted itself already over the years. There are many related Trump-DOJ scandals that have built us up to this point. Take someone who is very close to Donald Trump, who scored a critical two-and-a-half-hour interview with him in the October closing of the campaign, someone who has tens of millions of followers. Again, if you want to put it in TV terms, Joe Rogan has the audience of several TV channels combined.

7:57And this is what he's saying to his audience. The whole thing was nuts. And then he's like, well, we have a film. We're going to release that film. And the film has a minute missing from it. Yeah. Like, do you think we're babies? Like, what is this? The mob wants to eat, right? And they've been throwing red meat to the mob about Epstein files now for years. And now the mob is oddly bipartisan because it's got the Dems and it's got, you know, part of the base of Trump in there. We thought Trump was going to come in and a lot of things are going to be resolved. We're going to drain the swamp, going to figure everything out.

8:28And when you have this one hardcore line in the sand that everybody had been talking about forever, and then they're trying to gaslight you on that. Rogan, upset about Trump lies or, quote, gaslighting. And this is why Trump is fuming and frustrated with the handling of the Führer by his own team, exasperation following weeks of missteps. No clear strategy among top officials who underestimated the outrage, the Post reports, and especially the president's base, hoping the country would, quote, forget about the unreleased Epstein files and move on, end quote, has not proven an effective strategy.

9:03And so you take this all together. It is very different from many of the other substantive problems that Trump has faced. Government involves politics. We all know that. The politics on this one have exploded in Trump's face. the vows and pledges and promises to get to the bottom of this were from Trump and his allies, even though some of them, maybe some were uninformed, but some of them had to clearly know that all the key touch points of this lead back to the Trump administration. Now, as a journalist, I'm not saying what we don't know or can't confirm about some of the most sordid accusations swirling around the Epstein case.

9:39But when it comes to the suspicious in custody death, it was in the custody of the Trump DOJ. When it comes to the secrecy around the case, the lack of releases, that was also the Trump administration, term one and now term two. When it comes to the case promise that the key quote client list or other details would be released, Trump said it on the campaign trail, Pam Bondi reiterated it. Then they broke that vow. Then they issued a memo that was of Nixonian Watergate cover-up proportions saying there would be no more disclosures. And that couldn't hold for very long because now Trump himself is undercutting that memo from his Justice Department saying maybe they should disclose grand jury material.

10:18If you want to drain the swamp, but you are the swamp, how do you do that? We're joined by Mark Leibovitch, staff writer for The Atlantic and MSNBC contributor, the author of Thank You for Your Servitude, Donald Trump's Washington, The Price of Submission, and Michelle Goldberg, who has been reporting on this sordid scandal and its many tentacles at the New York Times, also an MSNBC analyst. Michelle, you have argued that there are a lot of psychological motivation, sort of political intrigue that has led the sort of MAGA base to at one point think this story would, quote, help them or lead them somewhere they wanted to go.

10:59But they're so publicly invested in it that now they've been walked down a road they don't want to all go down. But unlike other loyal MAGA stories where people have dropped it, they're not dropping it this time. I'm curious what you think about where we are tonight with this story clearly following the president overseas. Well, I think that you have to go back to QAnon from Donald Trump's first term and this conspiracy theory fantasy that evolved around Trump, the idea that Trump was, although he might seem like a kind of depraved and immoral character, he was secretly this warrior for light that was battling this unspeakably evil cabal of elite pedophiles.

11:42And I've always seen that as a way of sort of rationalizing support for Trump, who on his face kind of contravenes the values of anyone who's ever claimed to be a Christian conservative. But nevertheless, this mythology around him has become very, very strong, and it's intersected with the Epstein case, because here you do have an elite pedophile who has been protected kind of manifestly. We don't know in all the ways, but there's been all sorts of manifest injustices. And he has a lot of relationships with very powerful figures that can't be explained in normal terms. And so there are all these legitimate questions.

12:22And I think people who had built up this image of Trump that was never based in reality, but the idea that Joe Rogan said, that he was going to drain the swamp, that he was going to come in here and all these things were going to come to light. People had kind of invested in him. The idea that he was going to be reelected and there was going to be some sort of great national catharsis in which the enemies of that world were kind of finally revealed as the villains they were and dragged out and finally punished. And right when people thought that this sort of that this this great drama was going to culminate, Trump said, oh, never mind.

13:01Right. Mark? I mean, I think the larger point here maybe is, I mean, the Epstein case is a story. It has relatable individual. Donald Trump is in the middle of it, but it's also a part of a larger sort of theme of Donald Trump not actually delivering on what he says he's going to deliver on. I mean, this whole promises made, promises kept trope that has been a slogan of his really for both campaigns, all three campaigns, never really held water. I mean, to some degree, you know, Epstein is a much more relatable vision of him not, you know, turning around inflation on week one, not ending the Ukraine war on week, on day one or Middle East on day one, balancing the budget.

13:45I mean, everything he has said he is going to do, both, you know, presidencies, both terms, he has not done. This actually, I think, has worn out a lot of his supporters over time. And Epstein has become such a palpable and identifiable story. You have someone like Joe Rogan, who's not just someone speaking for a lot of listeners, but he's someone who is voicing pretty, you know, emphatically and pretty clearly and concisely what the breach is and what the sort of lie here is, which is, I think, very relatable to a lot of his supporters. Right. And there's a there's a way that Trump, more so than traditional politicians, has been able to dismiss and diffuse so many things by saying, oh, they're Trump haters.

14:26Everyone's out to get Trump. And it's a it's a version of the OJ defense. It's like you're either this bad or everyone's out to frame you. And they all had secret sonar plans and communications. And wow, they really got you. Every time you pull on a thread, you say, well, no, that person must have been in on it, too. So Rogan is uniquely invulnerable to that. He doesn't come from Republican or MAGA politics. He's a huge public supporter of the president. He will have a lot of audience either way, regardless for the future. I mean, he's demonstrated that. And so when he says they lied to us, it somehow hits different than other people who've credibly said they lied to us about issues.

15:07You mentioned Ukraine or prices. J.D. Vance has been on full defense. And I mentioned that, you know, Rogan, again, we're quoting him a lot tonight, but some of what he said is true. Rogan mentions in that same podcast that this is a bipartisan scandal for Trump. Rare, perhaps, that Americans are celebrating anything bipartisan, but there it is. And J.D. Vance has not just been playing defense on the right. He's been talking to journalists. He's been reaching out where he can. He went on the attack against the Wall Street Journal over this so-called body, illicit birthday card that Trump reportedly sent to Epstein.

15:41Trump denies that and has been suing the Journal over it, we should note. Vice President Vance discussing this online. He was on Twitter now, X, saying it's all BS. Chris Hayes, we want to show, then used that sort of space, which can still be a space for conversation or dialogue, to press the vice president about it. And they had a back and forth. And I want to play some of Hayes reporting or coverage of that exchange. The contention is that the book is entirely fake or Trump being a contributor is fake or all that is real. But someone created a totally fake Trump letter and then stuck it in the real book.

16:17Now, to his credit, the VP, who sort of holds open office hours over there on X, decided to engage with my questions with a lengthy response, quote, the contention, which is pretty clear if you just read what I said, is that it's bogus for The Wall Street Journal to publish a hit piece. without showing us the letter. I have no idea if the book exists. Wall Street Journal won't show it to us. I have no idea if the letter exists. Wall Street Journal won't show it to us. I have to say, on at least one point, I agree with the vice president of the United States, Shady Vance, as I said, quote, in point of fact, the contention isn't about journalistic process and the lawsuit certainly isn't.

16:51Trump called the letter fake and sued for defamation. Like you, I'd love to see the book produced, which I think is what you're calling for. We're in agreement. uh hayes uh doing what diplomats do sometimes with shells finding the the sliver of perhaps agreement but what do you think of that piece of this and both i'm curious on the substance what you think of what advance and others allege about the journal reporting which seems to have hit a nerve and a big lawsuit because it alleges an ongoing uh i want to speak very precisely an ongoing socialization or fraternization between these individuals with references uh to personal or romantic liaisons, not going any further than that, but that's the sort of cartoonish version of their discourse, substance, and then politics that J.D.

17:42Vance feels the need to address a lot of this to a lot of people right now. Well, and that J.D. Vance, to me, the headline is J.D. Vance says, I have no idea if the letter exists because Donald Trump says the letter doesn't exist, or at least that he didn't write it. He's suing the Wall Street Journal over it. If even his own vice president isn't sure that Donald Trump can be trusted in this instance, what should the rest of us take from that? And also, what does it mean that Donald Trump is suing a major American newspaper if, in fact, the letter does exist? He's suing a major American newspaper to shut down a potentially true story.

18:19That's also a big scandal. And so I think, you know, in some ways it shows the untenable position that J.D. Vance is being put in trying to defend this because Donald keeps saying things that are just demonstrably untrue. I mean, not in this instance. I also haven't seen the letter. And so although The New York Times has reported that Donald Trump contributed to this book, the letter hasn't been public. But Donald Trump has said a number of things in this case, in this scandal, that are demonstrably false. J.D. Vance needs to defend him at the same time he needs to keep the MAGA base that is following every twist and turn of this story on side.

18:57And in doing so, he made what I think is an extraordinarily damning admission about his faith in the man that he's serving. Hmm. Mark? Yeah, I mean, this is what J.D. Vance signed up for. And by the way, I mean, to Michelle's point, I mean, this is not just a major American newspaper. And this is the Wall Street Journal, which is, you know, owned by arguably Donald Trump's most important media ally out there and Rupert Murdoch. And it's not just the journal, by the way. It's Elon Musk. It's, you know, it's Joe Rogan, as we talked about. So, yeah, I mean, and also you do see, I mean, they're going the process route, right?

19:31I mean, J.D. Vance says, I haven't seen the letter. I have no idea. And by the way, he sounds very authoritative when he's saying it, even though he's not. He's not being decisive at all. But, you know, Chris Hayes is very deft. And he said, OK, well, let's let's show it here. And then J.D. Vance would sort of throw his hands up. I mean, that's usually where the most really the only defenses come from here. And at best, it runs in circles for them. But what it's certainly doing is not shutting this down. And it seems like it's going to dog the president, the administration for a while. Right. And there's so many checks they can't cash.

20:04And now they've uncorked processes, including the legal process of seeking grand jury material release that brings in other parties and further limits their ability to, as MAGA supporter Joe Rogan puts it, gaslight the nation. Mark and Michelle, a lot of wisdom here on a tangled story. Thank you both. Good to see you. Appreciate you. I want to tell folks that coming up, we turn to the more explicit war on the free press, the censorship sought after by Trump's FCC and his administration. Special guest on that. First, though, the intervention, they're calling it. Pete Hegseth's allies trying to help him help himself before he's taken out a nearly a billion dollars that were funneled for that Qatari plane and why that is also being hidden by the Trump administration.

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22:27There's chaos in the Department of Defense. Are you going to step it up? You're going after Hexer? A lot of my colleagues are realizing his limitations, and I think the White House, as I said, is also realizing his limitations. Key remarks from a top Democrat on military oversight there. Defense Secretary Hegseth on shaky ground. It's six months into the job. New reports on him clashing with generals or allegations that he's using politics to decide promotions. That is, of course, completely off the books, not how the military is supposed to run. The Post reporting he was actually rebuked by the White House for this fairly unusual and very controversial attempt to use unreliable lie detector or polygraph tests on other officials.

23:13Politico reporting that Hegsteth allies in and out of the Pentagon have engaged in something of a, quote, intervention, concerned the laundry list of scandals could actually lead to his downfall. And just to put a fine point on that, you're hearing about people who actually want Hegseth to succeed saying even they think it's so bad they have to step in. And what you see on your screen is this campaign-style video about him making it to six months. Remember, this is also unusual because most people who run the Pentagon, at the level of the civilian oversight and, of course, the generals, do not do a lot of direct self-promotion, let alone campaign-style internet videos.

23:53If they're promoting anything, sometimes you will see them go out of their way to promote the troops and honor their service. Not themselves are reaching the arbitrary six-month mark. It has noticeably not a recent clip of Trump's praise, but reaching back to April. Number one, I have so much confidence in him. They don't know how tough he is, Secretary of Defense, beat Hegseth. Six months in, on Hegseth's watch, the Pentagon has been accused of hiding the cost of that Qatari gift of the big plane, sneaking it into an unrelated budget on nuclear modernization. And the Times has found that hiding job isn't working very well.

24:34They say this could run a billion. All of this adds to why we might have the unusual spectacle of a Pentagon chief celebrating six months. Now, we have a lot in tonight's show. I told you I'm happy to be back with you after a little time off. And I've been catching up myself, including how John Oliver has been busting Trump with receipts on the failed efforts to distract from Epstein. Yeah, it's that easy. And if they keep asking, you just say Hillary shot JFK, Rosie O'Donnell did 9-11 and Nancy Pelosi f***ed the bat. That's how we got COVID. No further questions. And what's going on with the FCC and this controversial merger?

25:14We have an FCC commissioner on tonight concerned about these corporate, quote, capitulations to Trump. But right now we're going to turn to the new whistleblower stepping forward. You may remember that big story about the insider at DOJ who actually heard the Trump officials say they'll justify the courts. They'll say, quote, F you. One of the questions was, OK, did anyone else hear this? The answer is yes. new corroboration for the bombshell account. We have that new story next. Hey, I've got the campaign brief ready, built from last quarter's data and the competitive landscape. Approved. Oh, agents, where would we be without you?