Trump Tells Military The U.S. Is "Under Invasion From Within"

30 Sep 2025 · 42 min · 13 chapters

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In short

The episode centers on a Trump address to hundreds of senior U.S. generals and admirals, arguing it marked an unprecedented shift toward politicizing the military. Hosts and guests claim Trump told the military to focus on “the enemy within,” treating U.S. cities like “a big part of war” and using places such as Portland as “training grounds,” with Chicago and other cities next. They also argue this rhetoric aligns with repeated domestic troop deployments and signals potential abuse of emergency powers, including election-related aims. Notable examples cited: National Guard and federal forces in Washington, D.C., and California; references to Portland as a war zone; and claims about targeting domestic “insurrectionists” and “domestic terrorism” broadly.

Guests

Paul Rakoff, founder/CEO of Independent Veterans of America and host of Independent Americans; Bill Kristol, White House veteran, editor of The Bulwark, former chief of staff to Vice President Quayle.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

Tap a time to open that second in VO

Trump's Unprecedented Military Address

1:06 to 3:21

Discussion on Trump's address to military leaders and its implications.

“It is unusual to gather this many members of the military in peacetime.”

The Use of Military in Domestic Issues

3:21 to 4:47

Examining Trump's views on military involvement in American cities.

“Portland, Oregon, where it looks like a war zone.”

Claims of Invasion from Within

4:47 to 6:06

Analyzing Trump's claim of the U.S. being under invasion from within.

“time President Trump publicly directed military leaders to be a major part of fighting a war from within U.S.”

The Reaction of Military Leaders

6:06 to 8:03

Insights into the response of military leaders to Trump's remarks.

“I'll let you hear it for yourself as he insists U.S.”

Interview with Paul Rykoff

8:03 to 12:32

Paul Rykoff discusses the implications of Trump's speech and military rules.

“I've never walked into a room so silent before.”

Analyzing Trump's Military Address

14:49 to 22:26

Discussion on Trump's address to the military and its implications.

“Supreme Court near record lows with what it's been up to.”

Teasing Upcoming Guests

22:27 to 22:40

Ari Melber discusses upcoming segments and guest Don Lemon.

“and Washington Democrats are staring down this shutdown game again.”

Discussing Health Care and Shutdowns

22:41 to 28:00

Ari and Don Lemon talk about the implications of health care in the shutdown context.

“I'm a little disappointed that Don couldn't make the show.”

Big Tech's Role in Politics

28:00 to 31:40

Explore the influence of big tech companies on political narratives and accountability.

“And these platforms allow for something very different, which we've seen in the politics moving there.”

Reflections on Authenticity and Growth

31:40 to 35:48

Discuss the importance of being authentic and the journey of personal growth in media.

“Welcome back to America's News Channel, MSNBC.”
Show all 13 chapters

The Changing Nature of the American Dream

35:48 to 42:00

Examine the evolving concept of the American Dream and its impact on society.

“If you step back from current debates, the clashes over culture, justice, or taxes, there is an enduring framework that's shared across the spectrum.”

Discussing Social Status and Merit

42:00 to 44:38

Explore how social status and merit intersect in American society.

“In English, there are lots of people who have really high status that by any sort of honest sense of merit didn't really earn all of their status.”

Discussing Social Status and Merit

44:42 to 45:06

Explore how social status and merit intersect in American society.

“If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00Say you've always wanted to have a backyard oasis. Here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard? To have some fun with our money? So, use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 20 million customers today at Empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored. Burlington knows you cannot forget Mother's Day. And be real, texting your sibling to add your name to their card isn't enough. Instead, head to your newly refreshed Burlington, where it's easier to shop for deals that'll make mom proud.

0:39Find fragrances from perfume to candles or opt for a brand name bag. Plus, your store had a glow up, so it's more fun to shop for those special women in your life. Mom is wow upside down after all. Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow. Welcome to The Beat. I'm Ari Melbler. Today, the President made what are widely called unusual, perhaps unprecedented remarks in the modern era. And I'm going to show you exactly what he said and why military veterans and many other experts on a nonpartisan basis say this is one of those inflection points you need to confront. It is unusual to gather this many members of the military in peacetime.

1:22The president made this public address so everyone can see and hear what he is saying to the military. And he explicitly said this military under this Trump administration must better focus on attacking, quote, the enemy within. And as for the controversial and sometimes legally overruled use of just the National Guard in America, the president rhetorically pushing past that, explaining that he views the military, which we'll show you was quite careful to be quiet during what were widely seen as partisan remarks, he will use the military on American cities for what he calls a training ground for a new type of war.

2:01Now, some of this may be rhetoric alone. There is always a difference when you observe and cover the government between what politicians say and what they do. If we were covering this speech for you tonight and there had not been the deployment of National Guard and other federal forces in the nation's capital in California and skirmishes over it in many other places, it would look different. But our job is to report to you what the president is saying and what he is doing, what he is trying to get away with, sometimes under very pitched court battles. The context here, hundreds of generals and admirals were summoned at a cost of many millions of dollars from their posts around the world to hear the president.

2:37Now, again, And in all fairness, although that itself is unusual, the president can do that. He is commander in chief and he may have reasons, policy or otherwise, that he wants to summon them. And had this been a normal address about patriotism or readiness or even foreign policy goals, people could debate it. But that would be a more conventional use of the commander in chief powers. Instead, he used those powers, summoning these people up and down the rank to talk politics to talk partisanship, to talk about how he wants to use the military on you if you are watching this inside America. That, of course, breaks with a long nonpartisan tradition of how to address the military.

3:20There's also the discussion in here that the Pentagon should regard U.S. cities as, quote, a big part of war. Portland, Oregon, where it looks like a war zone. They're brave in our inner cities, which we're going to be talking about because it's a big part of war now. It's a big part of war. The radical left Democrats, what they've done to San Francisco, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, they're very unsafe places. And we're going to straighten them out one by one. We should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, National Guard, but military. Because we're going into Chicago very soon.

4:03the president making a wholly unprecedented claim that the military should use cities where americans live as quote training grounds now again in all fairness a sitting president has every right to talk about crime in the country and how to deal with it most of that's dealt with at the local level police tend to be part of your local government that's why if you are in trouble, you're usually dealing with the police, right? You're not dealing with the FBI, but there are times where there are federal crimes as well. The president is well within his grounds in general to talk about trying to lower crime in America.

4:40But having the U.S. military do it and call it war? Way out of bounds. The Washington Post reporting this new speech marks the first time President Trump publicly directed military leaders to be a major part of fighting a war from within U.S. cities. If we get to a wartime footing, if we see this president trying to summon war powers in our country, don't say he didn't warn you. And don't say you didn't hear about it. If you're reasonably informed, you can watch it on the news or read it on your phone. But we have been warned. It's not happening in a vacuum. The president has already sent, as mentioned, all kinds of federal agents and troops into various places, sometimes masked agents carrying out lawful immigration authorities, but in unusual ways.

5:27Sometimes military troops to Los Angeles, again, partly overruled in the courts and in our nation's capital, where there's a time limit he may yet test under law, and vowing, as you heard just there, to do more of this in the coming days. People close to Trump and former aides say this is part of something he is planning to test or abuse national emergency powers in the future, to distort elections or potentially try to reverse an outcome. And before you say, well, that sounds like a hypothetical, the president, current President Trump, lost one election and he did not leave peacefully. We all lived through that.

6:05This was a vindictive tone from the president today. I'll let you hear it for yourself as he insists U.S. troops should now target Americans, which he calls, again, the politician, his opinion, And he calls them the domestic enemy. Last month, I signed an executive order to provide training for a quick reaction force that can help quell civil disturbances. This is going to be a big thing for the people in this room because it's the enemy from within. And we have to handle it before it gets out of control. While America is under invasion from within, we're under invasion from within. No different than a foreign enemy, but more difficult in many ways because they don't wear uniforms.

6:54At least when they're wearing a uniform, you can take them out. These people don't have uniforms. But we are under invasion from within. The president making a claim there that is essentially false. Rhetorically, as a matter of language, you can't be under invasion from within. As a matter of foreign policy, you have to identify a foreign threat. usually a country, sometimes what they call a non-state actor, but it's a foreign threat, not fellow Americans. Now, what you see here is important. The assembled generals, admirals, and others there were respectful, but silent. Under military protocol, anything deemed a partisan or political address or claim, unlike, say, a Pledge of Allegiance, will be met with silence.

7:39And just about everyone in that room, best we could tell from our reporting, met that standard. Indeed, for Donald Trump, who so assiduously courts political audiences, holds more rallies than others, he was unaccustomed to a room this silent, and he felt the need to note it while also issuing a statement that I'll let you assess for yourself. I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is very, don't laugh, don't laugh, you're not allowed to do that. You know what, just have a good time. And if you want to applaud, you applaud. And if you want to do anything you want, you can do anything you want.

8:17And if you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank, there goes your future. There goes your rank and future, if you leave the room. A fact check, the president said, if you want to applaud, applaud, as if it is a personal choice. And that may have just been a sentence, a slip of the tongue, but fact check, false. Under the military rules, it is not about the personal agreement or whether you choose or want to cheer or not. Like many other rules in our nonpartisan military, it's not about the person. It is about a wider vow to defend the country and the Constitution.

8:57You cannot cheer political remarks in uniform, period. I want to bring in Paul Rakoff, who's the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, host of the Independent Americans podcast, and someone who has, through his service and his advocacy, been a leading voice on civil-military relations for some time now. Welcome. Thank you for having me. What about this speech was traditional under the rules, and what departed from the rules, just starting there? Nothing about it was traditional. The entire thing is unprecedented. We didn't gather all our senior military leaders after 9-11, so there is no precedent for this.

9:36And I think that's really important to frame what is the latest step in the removal of the guardrails that protect the politicization of our military. I've said for weeks, and especially right now, the most important story in America and in the world is that Donald Trump can do whatever he wants with the greatest military the world has ever seen. That includes bombing Iran. That includes hitting ships off the coast of Venezuela. It includes sending troops into American cities now like Portland. And it includes bringing together over 800 generals from around the world for what turned into a very overtly inappropriate, unacceptable political speech that was bookended by kind of a culture war TED talk from Pete Hegseth, who is hollow, who is fragile.

10:21And I think it was a very deep low point, not just for our military, but for our democracy. And the president says, oh, you can applaud if you want to and agree. Right. But that's not what the military rules say. Right. And I think if there's a silver lining, the discipline and military bearing of the generals in that room is it. They did not applaud. They held their bearing. Most of them didn't want to be there and know this is inappropriate and unacceptable. They showed up and they spoke volumes with their silence. But it's an important point here. They got what they wanted. Trump and Hanks have got what they wanted, which was the content and the giant photo op.

10:56The audience was not the generals in the room. The audience was the American public. Right. The audience was the world. And what the message was is I have total control of the military. This is the latest example of a power flex. Let me give you another part to fact check from your knowledge base when he went partisan on what he calls the radical left. We won every swing state. We won the popular vote. We won everything. We won everything. You have to take a look at the map. It's almost entirely red, except there's a little blue line on each coast, and I think that's going to disappear too. But he had no clue.

11:33The people that ran the office, the White House, were people that surrounded him, radical left lunatics. A lot of these insurrectionists are paid by whether it's Soros or other people, but they're paid by the radical left. It's false. It's dangerous. It's also dishonorable. I think what was revealed today, you could feel it in his kind of his unease with being in a room like that. He's not used to having folks not fawn all over him. Hegseth, too, even at the end, there was a moment where I almost felt like Hegseth was going to have a conscience moment, right, where he could realize how poorly his message was being received.

12:13But I think it's an important reminder to America that our military leaders are nonpartisan. They have held the line in the past. General Milley and others are the best examples. But we are deep in uncharted territories. And he is telegraphing his punches. He is on plan. He said he's going to do this. He said he's going to deploy troops domestically. And he's doing it. And I think the question for the Republicans and the Democrats is, what are you going to do to stop it? He's told you, Portland. He's saying Chicago. He's saying New York. He literally has a scoreboard and he's lining up the pieces to take the next step.

12:43Yeah. And you're speaking very clearly about what that threat is. He's talking about abusing power domestically, but it is also the threat from within from the commander in chief. You're saying take it seriously. I want to play for you when he talks also about how to use the troops. You're staying with me. We have our shortest break, 90 seconds, Paul Rakoff and a special guest when we come back.

13:07Say you've always wanted to have a backyard oasis. Here's the thing. If you get smart with your money, you can do things like that. With Empower, you can start making the most out of your money so you can go out and live a little. Isn't that why we work so hard? To have some fun with our money? So use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 20 million customers today at Empower.com. Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored. Hi, Diva. It's Rachel. And Jordan. Yeah, hi. Quick question. Why are you not spending your Venmo balance? Yeah, we're concerned. You can, like, buy stuff with it.

13:41Ugh, you love buying stuff. And earn cash back on eligible purchases. Mmm, you love purchasing eligible things. So, the money your friend sent you yesterday, that's today's ramen, or rideshare, or eye patches. The skincare kind, not the pyro kind. Spend with Venmo, and you can earn cash back with Venmo Stash. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max$100 cash back per month. See terms at Venmo.me slash slash terms. ID verification required to use a Venmo balance. Burlington knows you cannot forget Mother's Day. And be real, texting your sibling to add your name to their card isn't enough.

14:12Instead, head to your newly refreshed Burlington, where it's easier to shop for deals that'll make mom proud. Find fragrances from perfume to candles or opt for a brand name bag. Plus, your store had a glow up, so it's more fun to shop for those special women in your life. Mom is wow upside down after all. Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow.

14:38Joining our discussion on this unusual address by the president to the military is Bill Kristol, a White House veteran, editor of The Bulwark, former chief of staff to Vice President Quayle. Paul Rykoff still with us. Bill, the context for what Paul Rykoff was just telling us tonight, that this is a very real threat and that the president wanted to use or program this appearance for the country, makes even more sense when you look at this chart where people distrust many institutions these days. Supreme Court near record lows with what it's been up to. Congress, let's not even get into it, Bill.

15:15Presidency includes Trump low. The military held in much higher regard when it comes to a great deal or a lot of trust in that institution. Where does that figure into this, Bill? And how do you view the president's address? Yeah, he clearly wanted to use this as a moment to not persuade the generals. I very much agree with Paul on that. And they weren't, the good news is they didn't seem eager to be persuaded. And I know some of those men and women, and Paul knows more of them, and I don't think they're on board at the agenda of going to war with American citizens at home. Now, incidentally, one thing to think about is after three years of Hegseth controlling promotion boards, hiring and firing, shaping the military, where will we be by, let's say, mid-late 2028, to pick a rather important moment.

16:02So that's worrisome. But Trump wants to turn the military into something like ICE. You know, ICE is an out-of-control agency. It's a small one at this point, at least. It was 10 ,000, maybe 15. It's going to grow because of the appropriations. But still, it is basically, it's, you know, it is waging war, and some people put it this way, in American cities, pretty uncontrolled, but, and doing a lot of damage. But nothing like what the military could do. And for me, that ominous moment, you mentioned this sentence, it will be a major part for some of the people in this room, Trump said, talking about the war at home, the war against the quote enemy within.

16:38That is signaling that he expects the U.S. military to be, you know, Portland is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg. Now, will the military go along with that? Will Congress go along with that? Will the courts go along with that? I hope not. I think the military will resist for now. I'd like to see a little more vocal help. The military could use a little help. So those generals were impressive today. Yeah. And flag officers. Well, Bill, you tie the line of the actions, what he's trying to do to ICE, what he's done with the troops. Because if it were the words alone, we've heard presidents talk about a war on poverty, the Democratic side, a war on drugs on the Republican side.

17:18The rhetoric alone is not unprecedented. But you combine that with what you just said, Bill, the repeated deployment, sometimes over the objections of local officials, very anti-conservative, of troops, camo, Marines in California, leading up to what, Bill? I mean, I fear that it's leading up to a real attempt to seize control of many aspects of life in our nation, including presumably the way the elections are run and a lot of other aspects of law enforcement. This recent national security memoranda suggests that he very much doesn't suggest. He says he wants to target groups whom he will accuse, and individuals whom he accuses of fostering domestic terrorism, which he defines extremely broadly with none of the normal First Amendment constraints and the fact that we're entitled to have views that the Trump administration doesn't agree with.

18:13You put together that National Security Memorandum from Thursday and that speech today, and we are in very dangerous waters, I think. Paul? And it's not limited to domestic operations. I mean, he's hit multiple countries. He's hit Yemen, Iran, and Venezuela. He's talked about hitting Mexico. There's reports that a Navy SEAL operation was conducted in 2019 in North Korea. This can go much further. Again, he has total control of the most powerful military on the planet. And I think the manipulation of the threat is very important because there is a very real threat to our national security from domestic terrorism.

18:50It comes from the left and from the right. It's real, but it's not woven into his political enemies, which is a very crafty and dangerous manipulation that also tremendously undermines that trust in our troops. The worst mission you can give an American soldier, in my view, is not going to the Middle East. It's not going to fight terrorists. It's putting us in the middle of civil unrest in Portland, in Chicago, in Los Angeles. And that's nothing that people want to sign up for except culture warriors. And that's what Bill is talking about. It's very appropriate. The narrowing of the military, The purging on top, the reduction of the pool that you're recruiting from is creating Trump's military.

19:27That's always been the worst course of action. Now, Bill, this is serious. You might think, what's funny in all this? I can play some late night sound or dealer's choice, Bill, if you have a really good joke, you can tell it. No joke. No joke. You don't want to do it. No, no, no. One little point. Dealer's choice means you get to tell the joke or listen to the joke. Okay. I thought dealer's choice means I get to choose. You chose, but among those two options. Here's how Late Night is viewing all this. Our nation is at war with Oregon. It's War-agon. The Battle of Portland. When we freed the citizens from the tyranny of overpriced donut shops and white ladies with dreadlocks named Raindrop.

20:20The only crime in Portland is the price of locally sourced honey. Portland? Did I miss Vancouver attacking Portland in a fierce battle of mellow artisans? Don't shoot till you see the whites of their cold foam half-calf latte art. Around here for a long time. Bill, it would be funny if it was only rhetoric, as I mentioned. It's also serious. But what do you think of that point in the punchline for people who are busy living their lives and look up and laugh at these jokes because the joke is on the president? No, and I think I think Trump's probably hurt himself some by pretending the Portland's a horrible war zone.

21:01And then all weekend you could see video and photos of people going about their lives in Portland. Trump's depending on some footage from five years ago, which lasted for a few days or a couple of weeks. And so I do think anything that weakens Trump's ability, honestly, to sell this propaganda is important. But one point I will make, just listening to Paul, maybe it makes me think of this too. There are a lot of former secretaries of defense who are alive and senior officials in the defense. There are former military officials who have to be a little more, the tradition is they're a little more careful about getting involved in public policy fights and political fights, even in retirement.

21:33But this is not a normal policy debate or even a normal political debate. And I think they need to help their compatriots, their colleagues who are still in the military. These guys, I think, are going to do their best within the constraints of what they can do to try to keep the military from becoming ICE. But there are a lot of people who have a lot of credibility who could be saying a heck of a lot more than they're saying right now. And a lot of them, I think most of them honestly agree with Paul and me, but they've constrained themselves much too much. I don't really understand. Where are they?

22:02Where are the former Secretary of Defense? I mean, wouldn't that make some difference? If you're a normal citizen, you're not so certain. Trump says this, Higgs says that. Maybe they're right. It would help a lot to have Democratic and Republican senior officials, national security officials, saying this is unacceptable. Yeah. All important points driven from experience. Both of you have done, of course, public service. Paul serving our military bill. And, Paul, thanks to both of you. Ahead, there is the backlash to tech titans surrendering to Trump. and Washington Democrats are staring down this shutdown game again.

22:36But tonight, we are going full citrus. Get your lemon drop ready because Don Lemon is here. I don't know. I kind of recognize this guy. I'm a little disappointed that Don couldn't make the show. Don, what do you have to say about that? I'm very disappointed as well. I didn't get George's invitation. Oh, I'm sorry. It's in the mail.

23:04There are days where you need a drink, and then there are days where you need a lemon, or maybe a lemon-themed drink. Which brings us to longtime veteran journalist, host, anchor, author, Emmy winner, Don Lemon. He hosts the Don Lemon Show, which streams on YouTube and podcast platforms. And he's here for his book, I Once Was Lost, My Search for God in America. Welcome back. Thank you. You know how to book before that? It's called This is the Fire, where I talk about a lot of the stuff that's happening now as well. A double book plug. A double. We recognize the hustle. You got to get it in when you can, man.

23:37How are you? You know what Hope said. Don't knock the hustle. Okay. I want to do the shutdown with you briefly. It's not our lead story because best we can tell, shutdowns usually get worked out. Yeah. But you have Schumer and Jeffrey's, the headlines say, facing a leadership test because it's about what are you fighting for? They say health care. NBC saying House Democratic Caucus is relishing in the shutdown swagger from Leader Jeffries, giving him a pair of standing ovations. I think we have this. But some Democrats, nervous, Schumer may cave. Is this the same rerun? And is it good that Democrats say they actually have a thing, health care, that they're fighting for, keeping it affordable, rather than just complaining about Trump?

24:17I think that Democrats have been very strategic and they're staying on message with this one, to focus it on health care, because health care, what they want, you know, they're asking for to keep the Obama, the ACA tax credits. That helps not only Democrats, it helps Republicans. That helps everyone. Every politician in America should want every single American to have affordable health care. So I think the Democrats are playing it right this time. I think it's tough for Republicans to say this is a Democrat's fault when they're in charge of every single lever of government. That's going to be a tough one.

24:47Yeah. Trump puts up these attacks. He put up a video. We're not going to show the whole video. For context, I'm just going to show the image, which is this. Can I say something for you? Yeah, go ahead. You said that you usually get worked out. I think you're right. I'm sorry to interrupt you. But I think that you're right. They usually get worked out. But I think this time, the base of the Democratic Party wants the Democrats to fight back. This is a fight to the end. Yeah. They wanted to fight to the end. This is kind of a fight for the soul of the Democratic Party. So I think that they're going to, they're between a rock and a hard place on that part of it, whether they come up with some sort of compromise or maybe 10 days, as Chuck Schumer was saying, or whether they just say, shut it down.

Read the full transcript

25:26That's going to be a tough one for the Democrats. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you on that. This is Trump AI attack. It's a video. I'm not going to play the whole video because we don't find it meets our standards or is newsworthy. But I want to show, before I show Jeffrey's response, what he put up. It's basically this ridiculous, hateful, kind of bigoted, doctored image. In the video, he has the politicians saying things they don't really say. So we're the news. We're not going to tell you what it is because it's false. We have that standard. But Jeffrey's felt moved to respond. This is new. Here's what he said to the president.

26:04The next time you have something to say about me.

26:11Don't cop out through a racist and fake AI video. When I'm back in the Oval Office, say it to my face. Say it to my face. the leader saying, keep that same energy when you see me. What do you think of that response? And what is the challenge? And I am not gassing you up when I say that you have experience on both sides. You've done the traditional news thing for a long time. That's a lot of people know you. You're out on the internet where we know you got to be a little looser and you got to deal with things. You can't just say, oh, I would never touch that. Right. So what do you think of how Democrats deal with this kind of growing Trump AI attack and that energy?

26:56Well, that was a racist, you know, AI attack. The mariachi band, you heard that, and then the sombrero or whatever. And then, you know, just it was, it's bad. What I like is that, you know, I don't have to be a little bit out there. I don't have to pretend anymore. I don't have to sit around these tables and, and pretend like this is normal. Like, how do we have a normal conversation about something that's not normal? What Donald Trump is doing, if you watched him today in Quantico, it's not normal. No. So for how do you do about the AI generated? That just shows you the ridiculousness of all of this.

27:30It shows you how immature this administration is. The fact that Donald Trump or whoever is in charge of whatever department would allow people to post something like that or he would post something like that. And really, not only does it show you the ridiculousness of it, but it takes away any argument of some sort of legitimacy to what they're doing, how they're doing it, and, you know, and conduct. We're in a whole different territory. So, you know, being out there now on streaming, speaking the truth, it's I'm loving it because, again, I don't have to pretend like, hey, this is, you know, let's sit around and talk about how what Donald Trump is doing.

28:12It's like, this is ridiculous. Yeah. And these platforms allow for something very different, which we've seen in the politics moving there. The big tech titans are still settling with Trump at the higher level. Here's Google YouTube paying 25 to settle this lawsuit. This was over something they did consistent with their practices, which was after a violent insurrection. They suspended an account associated with that effort. Happened to be Donald Trump's account. It doesn't mean you go to jail, but they have these policies. They applied it. Now they're backtracking on that. And then you look at what Trump is doing, his sort of enemies list in the media, trying to censor Kimmel, going after other individuals, and the lawsuits where it is working in court.

28:56Kimmel's one where you see they went from suspended to reinstated. How do you view all of this, given your experience? Well, everybody has a terms of service. That's what they call it, right? When you sign up for these sites. Even you working here, you have a term of service. standards and practices. You have the standards and practices. You have to conduct yourself in a certain way. These platforms are privately owned platforms and they can say, this is how you have to conduct yourself. And if you don't, we can kick you off. And Donald Trump didn't conduct himself properly. Donald Trump inspired an insurrection.

29:23Donald Trump gave misinformation, inspiring an insurrection, giving misinformation, you know, saying horrible, racist things. All of those things are evidence and that can be used to kick someone, suspend them or get them term permanently barred from a platform. And so Donald Trump did all of that. The only reason I believe that these folks are caving is because they don't want their business interfered with in Washington. They want their mergers and acquisitions. You think they did follow their terms fairly? Of course they do. Forget ideology. Someone who happens to identify as a Democrat who did those violations would also be booted.

29:58And you're saying it's just corruption from the administration. It is, yes. I mean, look, I'm on YouTube. I have to conduct myself a certain way. I can't say the R word. I have to say grape sometimes so that the AI doesn't pick it up and think that I'm, you know, potentially doing something. Potentially doing something wrong. You have to be very careful on some of these things. You can't say you have to say unalived or any of those things because the AI is so sensitive that they have AI monitoring it to make sure that you're not promoting anything that's violent. And they would say they're erring on the side of trying to do something good.

30:32For example, if somebody is worried about influencing people who might take their own life, they don't want that video up for days. They want to stop it before it starts. Ari, as it relates to free speech in this country, the one thing is that if it promotes violence in any way, then it's not considered free speech. Someone inspiring an insurrection, a violent takeover of the Capitol, trying to change the outcome of an election, spreading human excretions on the walls of the Capitol, stealing things out of lawmakers' offices, threatening to hang the vice president. That is inspiring or inciting violence.

31:17So, yeah, I think they were well within their terms of service. and I don't know why I guess I do know why is that YouTube is a business it's not you know under the FCC's you know it's under that purview but there's a heck of a lot of other pressure there's a lot of other business you're going to hang with me I guess when we come back more Don Lemon

31:47Don Lemon two segments not one but two great to have you back here and the third one is the third one is the online extra aren't i co-anchoring this show you want to co-anchor because you know we got plenty of days to pick from you should come co-anchor my show with me would you do it i would consider it you should i'd consider it all right let me show you friends are on steph rule comes every once in a while let me show you we love we love when we have you here and and we've done this with other folks too let's take a step back let's look at how far you've come in the old days oh my Early dawn.

32:18Oh, Lord. Welcome back to America's News Channel, MSNBC. I'm Alex Witten. I'm joined this morning by Don Lemon. With Don Lemon, yeah. He's sitting in for Rick, who is off doing some duty at graduation speaking. Absolutely. Good job for him today. For him or for me? Both of you. Some breaking news that we want to tell you about this morning. A Senate subcommittee has decided to subpoena Bush and Cheney's staff in the Enron investigation. Oh, my gosh. That was so young. Do you know when that was? About 2002, I think. That was 2002, but I didn't even work here. I worked at NBC10 in Philadelphia. Local.

32:58Local, but it was an owned and operated station. So you got a stint on America's News Channel there. I would come in and do the news cut-ins or co-anchor with Alex Wagner, right? Alex Witt. Alex Witt. Alex Witt. So what did you learn then that you still apply? and what do you do differently? Oh my gosh. Well, I would have, wow. Yeah, back then I was just, I was a newbie. What would I apply? Yeah, what do you like? Like for example, you were there talking about subcommittee, you're doing the detail. What do you still apply when you look at how to understand the world and what do you do differently?

33:34Well, I just try to be myself and be authentic and I don't worry about being perfect and I don't worry about making mistakes because that's all part of life. I think perfection is boring. I learned that very early on And one of my mentors told me that was actually the news director that I've worked with there in Philadelphia. He told me perfection is boring. Just be yourself. People like you have a great personality. You're very smart. And he also said that you have, and even my, I've heard this from two bosses. Steve Schwade was one who taught me that. The other one was Jeff Zucker. He said, you have an impeccable editorial compass.

34:07Out of any anchor or any producer that I've met, you know where the story is and how to get to the story. And that's just because I like talking to people. so I feel I'm better with people. Like I'm better with you. I can be by myself. I can talk to a wall, but I like bouncing off of people. And developing how to show people your real self. How to show people my real self. So that's what, those things I've kept with me and I've been changed. You know what Lil Wayne said? Oh my God. Ari. Let me give it to you. Yes, sir. Go ahead. I see you in your fake vibe, your snake skin. Right. I'd rather be myself than your fake twin.

34:45Yeah. Are you my fake twin? Well, I'm not addressing you. He was addressing. I know. All these people trying to be like someone else. And you're saying your edge was getting comfortable being yourself. Because right now we get more your personality than, of course, we did when you were in an audition there. Yeah. Well, I think you got a lot of personality. I mean, that was an audition. That was really young then. Did you see that? That suit was fly, though. You look great. I always knew how to dress. But I like being myself. I used to work in this. it's interesting being in this building because I used to work in this building.

35:14I was a correspondent in this building. I used to, my favorite thing about being in this building, look at that, look at all the hair I had and how skinny I was. Um, my favorite thing about being in this building was getting to watch the SNL rehearsals on Friday night. Sure. Yeah. But yeah, there's a lot happening and you learn a lot from the people who've been doing the work. Uh, I'm out of time, but that's, I know you are, but that's the advice that I always give to people when they ask me, I say, Just be yourself, be authentic, and that will get you along. You and Wheezy. I'm just being myself.

35:43Don Lemon, the book, I Once Was Lost, one of several. Look it up now. When we come back, why is the American dream on the ropes? The answer may surprise you. A new author joins me. Is that me?

36:03If you step back from current debates, the clashes over culture, justice, or taxes, there is an enduring framework that's shared across the spectrum. The idea that in the U.S., education, hard work, building your skills can lead to a better life. The belief that merit, which differs from other societies, which might be focused on class or family connections, this American dream you've heard of has been echoing across ideology and culture. However you're born doesn't determine how it ends. That if you work hard, you play by the rules, you apply yourself, you can reach your potential, you can flourish.

36:43That's the American idea. I have the best advice for women in business. Get your ass up and work. It seems like nobody wants to work these days. We didn't make excuses. We believed in the American dream and in the values of family and hard work. In the United States of America, we get ahead and succeed by merit and merit alone. Merit over class is appealing. The U.S. is certainly a better place for it than, say, a dictatorship like North Korea. But there are signs that merit's not the glide path that some claim, considering the current era fewer young people are able to even make more than their parents did.

37:20And that's a decline. Polling shows the share of Americans who believe they can improve their standard of living has dropped to a record low. Inequality and student debt make it harder to get education and merit for all kinds of reasons. And so for today's young Americans, they doubt the American dream is available to them. Or as David Bowie put it, young American, do you remember the bills you have to pay? Or even yesterday. New studies find that merit and schooling don't boost all job applicants with findings that employers still favor name and the implied race of an applicant over merit, and that's in resumes that have identical qualifications.

37:59Part of this may reflect how we perceive things. Research shows our sense of merit is distorted by the constant focus on status and prestige. Professor Toby Stewart finding that our evaluations of how good we think something is depend not not on its qualities or merit, but on the prestige that we most associate with it. Take sports, which is supposed to be about measured competition. Kobe Bryant was past his prime in the last year he was playing, but he still made that year's all-star team, perhaps on the prestige or career loyalty over his numbers that year. It's said that it shocked even the great Kobe himself.

38:35So as we take that all in, the recently quoted Professor Toby Stewart joins us now. Now the author of the new book, Anointed, the Extraordinary Effects of Social Status in a Winner-Take-Most World. Welcome. Thanks so much, Ari. Thrilled to be here. What did you find about merit and why some of that isn't shaking out and working for everyone? I'll get there in just a second, but I'm still hung up on David Bowie. Thank you for that. You took me right back to my college day. You remember, it's a great song. It's an amazing song. It applies for young Americans today. Indeed it does. And I should probably say before I jump into it that here I am talking about social status.

39:12And I just want to be very clear that I was told not to wear a suit or tie for this meeting. Okay. You look great. So it was no disrespect intended. But on to the waiter issue. I mean, you know, the narrative itself is completely fine. I mean, it is a part of American history. And it has been the narrative in this country for a long, long, long time. I mean, the issue is how empirically accurate it is and the extent to which we have social mobility in the country. And those numbers don't look great. So while the book isn't about, the book's about social status and the economy of status that kind of lies behind how the world works, very broad.

39:55But a lot of it does touch on issues around merit and equity in our current system. And it's really the evidence kind of stacks up as it doesn't look amazing. So it isn't that hard work doesn't matter. It absolutely does. But it isn't most of the story. It's not most. And that means you find that whether we like to admit it or not, we're obsessed with a type of status and prestige. And we what? As humans, we measure it by who you're standing next to? I mean, judge a man by his friends, right? So that actually is literally, that old adage is literally about judge somebody on the basis of who they're standing next to.

40:32And indeed, that is one dimension of status, which is in moves from people and from institutions to between people and between institutions and people. So, you know, like you go to the, we're in midtown Manhattan and you go to the hot restaurant and the hot restaurant, like, does a hot restaurant, Is it hot because the right people are there? It's good or because of the status? Right. I mean, is it hot because the right people are there? The right people are because it's hot. You know, it's a circular kind of status rubbing off on one another. And that's part of how the system works. I mean, which, again, is fine if merit and status are the same thing.

41:04But the book is about how... Well, they ain't supposed to be. Let me show you what a lot of more liberal Democrats have been saying, because somewhat related, they say things are not on the level. They don't work, especially for younger people. We will not accept a society of massive economic inequalities. These ideas of taxing the 1 % and the most profitable corporations to fund a more affordable life for all are things that actually have quite a bit of support. Those with the most economic, political and technological power destroy the public good to enrich themselves while millions of Americans pay the price.

41:49The findings you have on status, is that part of what they call a problem? Yeah, I mean, the truth about status is that we believe that the status distribution and the merit distribution don't necessarily line up with one another and that they spread in very different ways. Say that more in English. In English, there are lots of people who have really high status that by any sort of honest sense of merit didn't really earn all of their status. And that has to do with the process by which we accumulate social status. So I'll let you respond, but low merit individuals that are highly prized in our society, and that partly undercuts this so-called American dream.

42:35Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know if I, you're going to the off diagonals, like I've got no merit and I have high status. and we absolutely can think of cases in which that exists. My friends say I'm always going off the diagonal. I'm always going off the diagonal. That's all my political science friends say. Right, right. I mean, but, and so that does indeed happen, right? I mean, there's, I mean, I think, you know, I think there's a line in the book that I even think it was Thomas Paine. So it was a long way back. And the line in the book was something like, if Homer's son wrote a novel, I'm not really sure I would want to read it.

43:06Right, and that's where you get into the off diagonals, right? I'll let you continue, but we'll put up the dynasties that we've had. I got 30 seconds. You can finish your thought. But a lot of Americans are facing this while we're told, no, we're not about connections. Yeah. So, I mean, you could look at the dynasties, but let me just generally, let me make that much more general. Just think about the zip code you're born in. There's a great deal of evidence that the zip code that you're born in, and this goes to the initial sort of clip where we let off, the zip code that you're born in has a lot of explanatory power on the one that you pass in.

43:42Right. So like the amount of in a completely merit based society, it probably doesn't matter that much which zip code you're born into. It turns out empirically that that isn't very true. Right. And so your work shows us that that may be misleading. And the first step is addressing these status and political fictions if we care about fixing them. In other words, if we recognize we have a bigger merit problem than we say, I'm out of time, but I want to tell people because it's interesting work. The book is anointed. You can find it wherever books are sold. A morning walk, some bird watching. It's another easy Sunday.

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From the publisher

September 30, 2025; 6pm: President Trump delivered an unprecedented and disturbing call to arms in front of the nation’s top military leaders, urging them to attack “the enemy within” and use America’s cities as “training grounds for the armed forces.” MSNBC's Ari Melber reports and is joined by Paul Rieckhoff, founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. Plus, veteran news anchor Don Lemon joins Melber for an extended conversation on President Trump’s free speech crackdown and big tech’s cave-in to Trump.

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