Trump Threatens U.S. War Powers Against Denmark

26:13Obviously, there are journalists somewhere who might have crashed a car, done drunk driving in their off time, just like a doctor could make a mistake. And being investigated for that is fine. That law and other protections are designed not to give journalists some, you know, total immunity, but to make sure that the government isn't abusing investigative powers to retaliate against their journalism. How do you weigh that in the Post's case, are you concerned about it? And the Amazon elephant in the room, do you think Jeff Bezos is in a position to stand up for these reporters the way other publishers have in the past?

26:55I'm not talking about ideology. I'm talking about this red line, or not necessarily. Well, I do think this is a very dangerous act on the part of the federal government. I think it signals that the Trump administration will put no limits whatsoever on its aggressions against the press. You know, Trump, way back in 2022, during a couple of rallies, he talked about wanting to put journalists in jail for publishing leaks of national security information. He said that when they were incarcerated, they would meet their bride, as he put it, and that then they would be willing to divulge their secrets.

27:33So really suggesting that they should be subjected to sexual assault in prison as a way of forcing them to reveal their sources. This is an effort on the part of the administration to not only intimidate journalists, but to intimidate their sources. This administration is completely obsessed with leaks, particularly out of the Defense Department. The Secretary of Defense, or as he likes to call himself, Secretary of War, is obsessed with leaks. And this action against the Washington Post reporter is, in fact, unprecedented. It's the first—unprecedented—it's the first time that the government has raided a reporter's home as part of a national security investigation.

28:16And so, I am very concerned about what they've done. You know, with respect to the owner, Jeff Bezos, yes, I would like to see him speak up forcefully about this. He hasn't. I mean, the editor of The Washington Post, a successor of mine, put out a very good statement, and I'm glad that he did. And I think that was reassuring. On the other hand, I think the statement that was put out by the publisher was tepid and timid. And I think the editorial page's comments on this, their editorial, fell into that category as well. Very, very tepid, very timid, and by the way, very short. I actually searched the other day on ChatGPT for unusually short editorials in the Washington Post, and number one on the list was their own editorial about this subject.

29:03I think they should be much more forceful in confronting the administration about this. And I would love to see Jeff Bezos lead that. Whether he can do that, he can do it. But I suspect that he's fearful of reprisals. Amazon has a lot of contracts with the federal government. Blue Origin, his space company, has contracts with the federal government and would like to have more. And so I think he would just like to stay out of the picture and avoid any direct confrontation with Donald Trump. Yeah, and that raises the question whether people who have that view, that the other interests or business comes first, whether their right to meet the moment in this time with these pressures on the First Amendment.

29:46I'm curious your answer to that, as well as the popularity of free speech. I've noticed in the last couple of years, very popular as a buzzword, not always getting the support from the public for the actual hard work of free speech. So I want to kind of give you a moment to reflect on both those questions. And we have more Marty Baron right after this break.

30:14We are approaching the one year mark of Donald Trump's first term. I mean, I should say first year of the second term tomorrow. And the First Amendment has been a big theme. His Justice Department just launched a criminal probe over free speech because of lawmakers and the mayor and the governor of Minnesota said things in public, which they, the DOJ says they can criminalize. And that includes just discussing current issues and the ICE policies with their constituents. We have not received a subpoena. And at the same time, if the rumors are true, this is deeply concerning. There are other countries where you get put away for the things that you say.

30:58There are other countries where you get investigated for saying something that runs counter to what the federal government states. But in this country, it's not that way. Here we have a freedom of speech and we do not negotiate those rights away. No negotiating away free speech rights. We also just saw a judge who happens to have been appointed by Republican Ronald Reagan, ruling against not only President Trump, but how other people in his cabinet engaged in a, quote, unconstitutional conspiracy to pick off certain people during deportations. In other words, targeting them for what they said or believed, not their actual legal status.

31:38And that infringes on the First Amendment rights in the United States. There are other ways that Trump is doing this beyond the classic idea of abusing government power to censor. That could be what we saw fail in the effort to get Jimmy Kimmel canceled, or what I just told you about, political operations that are being run through the DOJ to intimidate or even indict and imprison people for their free speech rights. But beyond that, we're seeing Trump also just dial up other activities that may not actually technically violate the First Amendment because everyone does have a right to sue in this country.

32:13That's why we're seen as such a litigious society. But it is at least unusual, if not chilling, to have a president so regularly suing so many different outlets and journalists, even when they are doing interviews with him and not breaking any civil, let alone criminal law. This controversial interview over at CBS included a top Trump aide relaying, quote, that Trump said, don't cut the tape, meaning his view of how it should be edited. Make sure the interview is out in full. If it's not out, we will sue your blank off. That's from his press secretary relaying what, according to the Post and other observers, was Donald Trump's demands.

32:54Some later tried to minimize it as a joke, a defense we've heard before, but one that cuts less ice when Donald Trump has sued so many places, outlets, tech companies, journalists. And remember, in normal times, when outlets get a frivolous or totally baseless suit, they tend to fight it in court. Indeed, both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal are currently doing that against Trump cases. But we've seen other CEOs, and I actually have more on this in a special show tomorrow night, But we've seen other CEOs and corporate leaders just fold immediately because they're not really looking at whether their company did anything legally wrong.

33:30They just want to get out from under the attacks and pay off Trump. Then you have more action from the DOJ, the FBI searching the home of Washington Post journalists, which, again, can be legal, but is certainly unusual and aggressive. The agents took her phone, two laptops, a watch. One of the laptops noticeably was her personal computer, the other a work computer. And that's raised questions about whether going to use that rather extreme legal measure is the point itself, regardless of whether they actually needed the material or are using it to build a case. As mentioned, we have one of the really foremost guests in the nation you could have on these difficult topics.

34:10Veteran journalist Marty Barron was executive editor for the aforementioned Washington Post. Welcome back. Thank you. Good to be here. I mentioned several developments. So first, your reaction to those and the ongoing battles between how Donald Trump leads and what the free press and its audience should be doing. Well, I think, as you articulated, we're seeing a broad attack on freedom of expression generally, not just freedom of the press, although there's been a lot of attacks on that as well. But I think what you're seeing is, you know, attacks on comedians, attacks on politicians for speaking up, attacks on lawyers for representing their clients, you name it, across the board.

34:53And what you also have, as you alluded to, is that you have a lot of business executives who are simply afraid to speak up for fear of reprisals. Essentially, their free expression has been taken away as well because they know that if they do speak up and even advocate for the policies that they believe in, that they will suffer consequences for doing that if the proposals that they recommend run counter to the policies of the administration. Have you ever seen it this bad on the government versus First Amendment in your career? I never have, you know, but going into this term, the second term of Donald Trump, I expected the worst.

35:33But it turns out that the worst is worse than I expected. Hmm. When you look at the search of the home, reading from the New York Times reporting about, again, the post where you where you were exceedingly rare to search reporters home. They know there is a 1980 law that actually bars search warrants for reporters work materials unless the reporters themselves are suspected of committing a crime related to them. I'll mention, Marty, and you can opine on this. You know, some of our viewers know, many probably don't. I practiced First Amendment law before this job. When you represent journalists, you're representing their freedom to do their job.

36:11Obviously, there are journalists somewhere who might have crashed a car, done drunk driving in their off time, just like a doctor could make a mistake. And being investigated for that is fine. That law and other protections are designed not to give journalists some total immunity, but to make sure that the government isn't abusing investigative powers to retaliate against their journalism. How do you weigh that in the Post's case? Are you concerned about it? And the Amazon elephant in the room, do you think Jeff Bezos is in a position to stand up for these reporters the way other publishers have in the past?

36:53I'm not talking about ideology. I'm talking about this red line or not necessarily. Well, I do think this is a very dangerous act, dangerous act on the part of the federal government. I think it signals that the Trump administration will put no limits whatsoever on its aggressions against the press. You know, Trump way back in 2022, during a couple of rallies, he talked about wanting to put journalists in jail for publishing leaks of national security information. He said that when they were incarcerated, they would meet their bride, as he put it, and that then they would be willing to divulge their secrets.

37:31So, really suggesting that they should be subjected to sexual assault in prison as a way of forcing them to reveal their sources. This is an effort on the part of the administration to not only intimidate journalists, but to intimidate their sources. This administration is completely obsessed with leaks, particularly out of the Defense Department. The Secretary of Defense, or as he likes to call himself, Secretary of War, is obsessed with leaks. And this action against the Washington Post reporter is, in fact, unprecedented. It's the first time that the government has raided a reporter's home as part of a national security investigation.

38:14And so I am very concerned about what they've done. You know, with respect to the owner, Jeff Bezos, yes, I would like to see him speak up forcefully about this. He hasn't. I mean, the editor of The Washington Post, a successor of mine, put out a very good statement, and I'm glad that he did. And I think that was reassuring. On the other hand, I think the statement that was put out by the publisher was tepid and timid. And I think the editorial page's comments on this, their editorial, fell into that category as well. Very, very tepid, very timid, and by the way, very short. I actually searched the other day on ChatGPT for unusually short editorials in the Washington Post, and number one on the list was their own editorial about this subject.

39:01I think they should be much more forceful in confronting the administration about this, and I would love to see Jeff Bezos lead that. Whether he can do that, he can do it, but I suspect that he's fearful of reprisals. Amazon has a lot of contracts with the federal government. Blue Origin, his space company, has contracts with the federal government and would like to have more. And so I think he would just like to stay out of the picture and avoid any direct confrontation with Donald Trump. Yeah, and that raises the question whether people who have that view, that the other interests or business comes first, whether their right to meet the moment in this time with these pressures on the First Amendment.

39:44I'm curious your answer to that, as well as the popularity of free speech. I've noticed in the last couple of years, very popular as a buzzword, not always getting the support from the public for the actual hard work of free speech. So I want to kind of give you a moment to reflect on both those questions. And we have more Marty Baron right after this break.

40:11We're back with veteran journalist Marty Barron, who ran The Washington Post as executive editor, including during Bezos' previous tenure in the earlier first term period. Marty, we'd been discussing this, and I asked about the type of people who are owning these publishing houses and whether they're the right fit. we all get that some people just want to maximize, you know, quarterly returns and stock price, then maybe they're not the ideal steward of a publication if we care about civics. And then I also asked you about the popularity of free speech. So I hand you the floor on one or both of those.

40:48Well, I don't think at the Washington Post, they're maximizing profits at the moment, to tell you the truth, but quite the opposite. I think they're struggling a bit in that regard. Nonetheless, I mean, I do think it's— I'll let you finish. I'll let you finish. I may have been unclear. I just mean if an owner only cares about profits at other companies and satisfying the government for that reason. But go ahead. Yeah, look, I mean, I think ownership is a point of vulnerability, particularly owners who have other interests and interests that depend on the federal government's, you know, giving them contracts.

41:20That is true of Jeff Bezos, the owner of The Washington Post. that the networks, for example, are owned by companies that are dependent upon the federal government for approval of mergers and the like. And the Trump administration and the president himself has used that power as leverage to achieve what he wanted. Settlement of lawsuits, things of that sort, changes in management, changes in news direction, all of that. He has used the power of the presidency to achieve the kinds of changes in media that he would like to see. On the other hand, there's still a lot of great journalism taking place.

41:54And at the Washington Post, the very fact that their reporter's house was raided is a sign of the kind of really good work that the news department at that news organization is doing. And I commend them for that. They are trying to hold this administration to account and working very vigorously to do so. With regard to the First Amendment, and yes, I think that there has been a, look, there's been a decline in support for democracy overall. I think what people don't recognize is that the First Amendment is not a protection just for the press. It's a protection for everybody. The right to speak with your neighbors without fear of surveillance and of reprisal.

42:32The right of business executives to speak up for the policies that they believe in. The right of a comedian to make jokes. The right of individuals to read the publications that they would like to read and to listen to the programs they would like to listen to. This cuts across all of a society, and it's absolutely fundamental to a democracy and, frankly, to human dignity and human autonomy. And we need that in order to have an exchange of ideas, a debate over policy. That's what you need in order to make human progress. And so when that is restricted, when you have a government that is trying to crush that, you not only crush the very pillars of democracy, but you eliminate the elements that are necessary for a well-functioning society.

43:24Yeah. All really important points, which is why we set aside time for this today. Marty Baron, thank you so much. Thank you. Appreciate it. Springsteen, using his voice and platform speaking of free speech to speak out specifically against ICE. You're going to see that coming up.

43:45If you're a parent and want to help set up your child for success, then IXL is right for your family. As an effective and affordable online learning program, IXL covers math, language arts, science, and social studies using interactive practice problems for kids from pre-K to 12th grade. Listeners can get an exclusive 20 % off IXL membership when they sign up today at IXL.com slash 20. Visit ixl.com slash 20 to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. We optimize hydration, movement, supplements, and sleep, but most people completely ignore the air they're breathing.

44:22And when your air is off, your body feels it first. The Blue Signature Air Purifiers by Blue Air quietly remove airborne pollutants, odors, smoke, and allergens, supporting deeper sleep, better recovery, and clearer focus. It's the most customizable air purifier you can get with exclusive accessories designed to fit your space and your style. Visit blueair.com and use code signature30 to elevate your wellness routine. Courage. I learned it from my adoptive mom. Hold my hand. You hold my hand. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care at adoptuskids.org. You can't imagine the reward. Brought to you by AdoptUSKids, the U.S.

45:00Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council.

45:07Bruce Springsteen speaking out against ICE, as well as the unfolding crisis led by the federal government in Minnesota. Here's what he said. We stand against heavily armed, masked federal troops, debating an American scene. I'm using a Stalin tactics against our fellow citizens. If you believe you don't deserve to be murdered for exercising your American right to protest,

45:43I send a message to this president. And as the mayor of that city has said, ICE, just get the f*** out of Minneapolis.

45:57But this sentence is for you.

46:03Springsteen speaking out about that American right to protest and what he calls Donald Trump's Gestapo tactics, quote unquote, by ICE. There's a lot of different pushback out there if you listen. I'm going to fit in a break. When we come back, we have Melissa Murray here for something special. Next. If you're a parent and want to help set up your child for success, then IXL is a right for your family. As an effective and affordable online learning program, IXL covers math, language arts, science, and social studies, using interactive practice problems for kids from pre-K to 12th grade. Listeners can get an exclusive 20 % off IXL membership when they sign up today at IXL.com slash 20.

46:48Visit ixl.com slash 20 to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. We optimize hydration, movement, supplements, and sleep, but most people completely ignore the air they're breathing. And when your air is off, your body feels it first. The Blue Signature Air Purifiers by Blue Air quietly remove airborne pollutants, odors, smoke, and allergens, supporting deeper sleep, better recovery, and clearer focus. It's the most customizable air purifier you can get, with exclusive accessories designed to fit your space and your style. Visit BlueAir.com and use code SIGNATURE30 to elevate your wellness routine.

47:25Courage. I learned it from my adoptive mom. Hold my hand. You hold my hand. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care at AdoptUSKids.org. You can't imagine the reward. Brought to you by AdoptUSKids, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council.

47:44A lot going on, but there's still time to fall back. And tonight we have two very special guests. You know Professor Murray, NYU Law, also co-host the Strict Scrutiny podcast, and is the author of several books on abortion rights and Trump indictments. Also joining us, making a return to the beat, is Graff, longtime rapper out of Queens. Watch a video of his new song with Joyner Lucas, Big League. He has a new album dropping soon featuring other artists we know, like Busta Rhymes, on Spotify, over a quarter million monthly listeners and growing. Great to have you both. Good evening. How are you guys doing?

48:19Good, good, good. Real New York fallback here. Yes. Super. Super. Yeah. You're home court, so you can go first. All right. So my fallback, something that I want to see go away in 2026, is early decision in college admission. Which is something a lot of parents think about. I am one of those parents. I have teenagers, and they're getting ready to apply to college. and early decision is the absolute worst. So the idea behind early decision is that you pick a college and you basically commit to this college early in the process. So you never get to see which colleges you might get into. You basically pick one and if they say yes to you, that's where you're going.

48:56Like some of them are less restrictive than others, but some of them are really binding and it's almost like a contract. You're given a promise ring before you met everyone. Yeah, exactly. A little while. Exactly. And why are the colleges into it since you're at one? Well, so if you're a college, this makes a lot of sense for you because you can basically manage your yield and that helps with your selectivity. So that's important. You can also basically lock in who you're entering classes is going to be or at least a big portion of that entering class. And here's the thing, and this is why I think it's especially problematic for a lot of kids.

49:27College is going to be a huge investment. Maybe the first big investment they make, they need to make a choice and know what all of the options are. If you do early decision, you're kind of locked in and you really can't get out of it if it's a restrictive early action situation, early decision situation. And they don't have to give you all of the financial aid that you need. They make a decision about what financial aid you require. And if they give it to you, even if it's not quite enough or it's not something that you think you're comfortable with, you're kind of still locked in. What's on your fallback list, Graf?

49:53My fallback list is the misuse of AI. I think that AI is a great tool if it's used properly. Like some people be like, oh, I'm afraid of AI is taking jobs. No, you will never lose your job to AI, but you will lose your job to somebody who knows how to use AI. That's number one. But two, I don't like the fact that it could affect our reality. Like some things I see online, it looks so real. I don't know what to believe or not believe. The other day I saw one officer like chastising an ICE agent and I liked the way he was checking them. So I was going to make a comment in a positive way. Somebody was like, oh, this is fake.

50:28This is AI. I was like, oh, damn. Yeah. So I think the AI clips that look too real, I think by law, they should be like labeled. Yeah. So we can't get fooled because it's mismanagement. Yeah. And you mentioned by law, it's interesting. We had a professor Yuval Harari in here who's an AI expert. He has the same view as you, that things that matter can't just be fraudulent and then have everyone go on and not be harmed. So we're a very capitalist society. You can't get away doing AI money. You see? Right? They come at you real quick for that. Right. But when it comes to our civic life or the things we're discussing, if it makes money for these corporations, then there doesn't seem to be any law or any protection for us.

51:11And we're actually the people being potentially taken advantage of. We're being damaged. We already have too much access and too much information as it is. So to sift through that and figure out what information is accurate, we had a hard enough time before AI. Yeah. Now I can't even tell what's real or fake. Yeah, I mean, it reminds me, Professor, of a bar I'm sure you've thought of before, which is when Hov said about fake watches. He said, if I ever moved like you, it would be mockingly. Some of y 'all spend real money on fake watches, shockingly. it's true speaking of music let me add this real quick with AI and music they're like signing artists digital artists that don't exist in a space what are you signing?

51:56and why? this is harmful because it's soulless I think music is about connection and creating real emotion we don't need music created by machine or computer or like why? Respect. There's a need to exist. Respect. So I have some big local beat news, which is we have a bonus round and fallback. Ooh. And you're doing it. Cha-ching. All right, so another fallback. In 2026, I think we need to fall back on manspreading on public transportation. Explain it and then explain what's wrong with it. I think you know what I'm talking about. I do, but not everyone rides the subway. We're a national show, Melissa, not just New York.

52:35It doesn't have to happen on public transportation. could honestly happen in any public space, but it is an individual. It doesn't have to be a man, although sometimes it is men, who are just spread out and occupying a whole lot of space. And space is usually at a premium, so you could narrow the aperture a little bit and allow a couple of other people to sit on that bench with you. But that's something that I, it just drives me crazy, especially on the subway. Right now in New York, when it's cold, everyone's all bundled up. There are all these coats. There's not enough space and people are just sprawled.

53:05I see it on the subway. I saw it on the C train recently. And it also goes to something that can go either way in a big city. You know, I love New York City. I moved here. You meet so many people from so many places. But when it's working, it's like we have what I consider civic respect for each other. There's a social contact. But when it breaks down, it's like everyone's just going for theirs. Yeah. Yeah. And to be clear, sometimes manspreading can lead to good outcomes. Like I met my husband when he was manspreading on a bench on the first day of law school. And I came up to him and I said, could you close your legs so three or four of us could join you on this bench?

53:40And he was like immediately smitten. So sometimes it works. But most of the time it doesn't. He appreciated you being blunt or dreadful. Well, I don't think anyone ever talked to him that way before. But now that I found my man spreader, I don't need another one. You have one and done. I'm one and done. And as we close out in fashion, what do you think of the professor? She's bringing a much more streetwear energy tonight with the hoodie under the blazer. What do you think of it? because you have style yourself. Right. New York City. I'm into it. Well, it's actually zip on and off. Hey. Wait, that's one item together?

54:14It's one item. Like, this is, it's, yeah, it's like, you can zip it on. And why is that? I guess it's all. She's ready for all weathers. Well, why is that? It's made by this, these two women who wanted to make a blazer where you could layer things but not have it be bulky. And so, you can zip these different, they're called dickies and you can zip them in and out. Don't fall back on this. Yeah. Yeah, it looks good. We covered a lot of ground. This was a great fallback for 2026. Our thanks to Melissa and Graf. A wonderful way to wrap it up. That does it for us. Courage. I learned it from my adoptive mom.

54:49Hold my hand. You hold my hand. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care at AdoptUSKids.org. You can't imagine the reward. Brought to you by AdoptUSKids, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council.