SkinCeuticals C E Ferulic: What is new? Episode 432

0:00Hi, I'm Valerie and you're listening to The Beauty Brains.

0:13welcome to the beauty brains a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry this is episode 432 i'm your host valerie george and with me today is perry romanowski hi perry hello valerie welcome to fall It is officially the latter half of the 2020s, but on today's show, we're going to cover a lot of questions, including does Peptonics really grow hair? What's up with the new SkinCeutical CE Ferulic formulation? Is there any science behind DHT3 blockers to promote hair growth? Does clear gloss DPU work? And can you damage hair on purpose to get volume and body?

0:54But first, that chit-chat. Valerie, I've been going to a lot of golf outings, you know, and I was just at one at the Midwest SEC golf outing. Okay, how'd it go? Oh, it was good. Golfing was fine. I think my team was one of the better scorer ones, but only because, you know, you get that one sales guy who's like really good and then everyone else sucks. Yeah. And that's what happened. But anyway, so I'm there and there was a person who wasn't part of the industry. she was somebody's friend but she's like hey uh let me ask you um what do you think of those red light masks do you think they're worth getting i'm like she asked the right person or the wrong person depending on what her end outcome is you know i never like to be super definitive on things like this with people because if somebody went out and spent like $300 on something, they don't want some dude who just goes like, yeah, that was a total waste of money.

1:54So whenever somebody asks like that, I try to sort of couch my responses in a positive sort of way. And I always will say, well, you know, if you like doing it and you can do it consistently, maybe you'll get some impact. In reality, I do think they're kind of a waste of money and you're not going to get more impact than if you use you know a typical topical moisturizer regularly i just don't think those red light masks people are going to use them enough or even that they're strong enough the at-home ones i mean and and how can you even trust any of the device makers because anybody could make a device like that call it you know some red light facial mask and it does nothing.

2:42But I didn't want to share that all with somebody who might have spent the money on it. So I did a nicer version of that. But really, I think red light masks are mostly just a gimmicky thing that won't really help people's skin. You're right. The data is a little lacking. I mean, I think there's some information out there, studies, which are likely biased, by the way, that show an incremental improvement, but incrementals, I think, less than 5%, or I forget the exact number in the study. So you're right. I don't think so. There's too much variability, but I probably would have told her all that.

3:23Well, you know what else I think about any beauty technology? If it's super popular on TikTok or Instagram or other social medias and you see a bunch of influencers pushing it, it's probably not going to be anything special. I agree. Because they're spending all their money on influencers and not really necessarily the technology. So if something really works, you don't really have to advertise it that much. It's just like, oh, this works and everyone's going to tell their friends and so on and so on. If you have to pay people to talk about your product. Well, is your product really that good?

3:59I also think it's hard to know if the results really paid off. I always talk about this, you know, with hair, your hair either looks good or it doesn't, and it's always growing. So you always have new hair coming in, but with skincare, you have to use a cream or a device and think, gee, I hope in 10 years, I know that this made a difference. And the reality is you won't. And so even I've had cosmetic lasers done at the dermatologist, like really high intensity, high frequency stuff. And I think my skin looks pretty good for my age. Most people think I'm about 10 years younger than I really am, but I don't know if those were the culprit or if it's genetics or lifestyle or all the SPF I've worn.

4:46I don't know. Yeah, I think, you know, it's mostly genetics and SPF. And the fact that you don't regularly smoke. Those are the big ones. And to be honest with you, I went and visited my mom yesterday, who was like 86 years old. And she always had great skin. But now she's 86 years old. And, you know, she's got wrinkles. But eventually, everybody gets wrinkles, right? And so how do you know you've used this mask in your 20s, 30s, or 40s? you know so when you're 80 you know your skin's not i don't know maybe i'm not the target market needless to say you didn't burst her bubble and that was very nice of you and despite me wearing spf wearing hats me staying out of the sun and this is for a long time guys i have a second basal cell carcinoma on my face oh no it's not in any obvious place i don't see it so uh no it's it's It's on the side of my face, on my cheek.

5:47Oh, okay. Yeah. I noticed it, and I've been tracking it for a while, and I've had a huge rosacea flare-up, especially since I was pregnant last year, it started, and I had noticed this spot. And I thought, well, it's probably part of the rosacea flare-up, but it started getting, I don't really know how to describe it, but less clear-looking. Yeah. Or more clear-looking, I should say. More clear. It's kind of hard to describe. So I went to my esthetician and I said, hey, you've been photographing my face for the last year. I need all the pictures you've taken of this, the right side of my face.

6:25And she said, yeah, no problem. So my esthetician sent me all these photos and I said, yep, it's looking a little more like a clear filled in spot that's slightly more red. And so I have to go to the dermatologist. Now, I used to go to the dermatologist every six months for a skin checkup because I've had actinic keratoses several times. I've had actually a basal cell carcinoma on my arm before. And I haven't gone since I moved to Texas, partially because, you know, it's like I was going back to L.A. for medical care. And then I got pregnant and all the things. And so I said, I need to go in and show him my face.

7:05And he said, yeah, I think that's basal cell carcinoma. And so I'm having it removed tomorrow. Oh boy. Well, yay. Well, that's good. You caught it early. Yeah. I just said, Hey, can you guys just cut it out? Like you did the one on my arm where it turns out they just rip it out and make sure they got a good margin and stitch you shut. And he said, well, it's your face. So we want to be a little more careful. And I said, no, I don't care, but it turns out they want to do it their way. And that's what, that's what they're going to do. So anyway, yeah. Well, it's good that you caught it. And for listeners out there, if you see something changing on your face, it might be worth it to go get it checked out.

7:47Exactly. So I'll let you know how it goes. He said it's hard to see the margin clearly because of all the rosacea flare-up, which I think it's like the flare-ups related to that spot because it's nowhere else on my face and I can't get it to go away, even with azelaic acid, my usual routine. So I'll keep you posted. Yeah, well, we'll see. Speaking of posted, you had mentioned that it's always hot in Texas. Well, Misty, who's one of our patrons, she said, I can testify, Valerie, that you never get used to the heat. Lived in Texas my whole life, and these 100-degree days are killing me. Are they still 100-degree days?

8:23Yes, but you know what? The humidity is very low. It's actually California low, and so that doesn't bother me. Heat without humidity is fine. It's when there's any smidgen of humidity in the air. I can't do it. All right, just one more note. You know how we had those kittens? Yeah. Well, when we went on our trip, we gave the kittens away to other fosters. Well, two of them weren't doing well at one of the fosters, and so now we got two kittens back, which they might become our own cats. Oh, I think you need to keep them. You can't put them through the torture of another home. Yeah, they certainly do.

9:06They're certainly fun and friendly. Are they happy being back with you? They are ecstatic being back with us. Oh, they love you. You're their daddy. I've also discovered that cats don't like to be necessarily just by themselves. At least these cats, they really like having another cat to play with. And they're together all the time. Oh, best friends. I love that. Well, I'm glad they're back for you. Indeed. Well, Perry, we don't have any beauty news this week. It has been a slow couple weeks as summer winds down, but we do have some feedback from a listener.

9:50Fizzy for Shizzy. And they kind of said, hey, why do we even do this show? Literally said no shade. But what's Perry's aim for being on this show? He doesn't seem interested. Perry, do you feel like you appear disinterested in the show? Well, I always think, I don't know, I sound interested. I think it's more that I'm so skeptical of beauty products and the technology. And do I come off as sounding irritated or something? I'm not really irritated. I guess I get annoyed a little bit about the way some of the products are marketed and the way some people talk with assurance about the effectiveness of these products and things.

10:35But let me just say this. While I am a cosmetic chemist, I spent my whole career in the industry, so just making products and such. When I do the beauty brains, I don't really see me as a science communicator. You know, even though I'm a scientist, I see this beauty brains more as being a consumer advocate. You know, I'm trying to help people see behind the curtain, behind the, I think there's a lot of science washing here. You know, the companies are going to tell you about the science and the chemistry. And, you know, to most people, they don't care about chemistry. What they care about was if they use a product, is that going to give them the effects they want?

11:25They don't need to know the wavelength of the red light and the mask and the strength of it or whether some acid is having protons on it or electrons on it at certain pHs and such. None of that stuff to consumers really matters. To scientists, it's kind of interesting, I think. And maybe consumers like the story or something. But ultimately, when it comes down to it, they want to know, does this product work or not? Should I spend my money on this or not? And that's kind of what I see the beauty brains as. And that's my aim of this show. It's not really to educate people about the science. I do that a bit on Chemist Corner, and that's for other cosmetic chemists.

12:06But for the people that I see on Beauty Brains here, I figure you guys are consumers who like to use products. And you want to know, is this a scam or not? And that's kind of how I see my role here. And that's why I continue to stay interested because, as we said, I think last time, there's just no shortage of snake oil salespeople in this industry. And consumers need an advocate. That's also why I don't really like seeing people do sponsored content, right? I understand if you're a scientist or you're a communicator and you want to make money, that's really the only way to do it. or the way we do it where we get sponsored by our own listeners of the show.

12:48If you want to support the show, you go to patreon.com slash thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. And that's the only way this show makes us money. We don't take advertisement and we don't do sponsored stuff. And that's why. I would say you're interested and passionate about not the scam that's going on, but really the scam that's going on with marketing and consumers and products. So I don't think you're, you know, bored or whatnot, but sometimes I think you just get, yeah, annoyed is the right word where you're just annoyed by kind of like the same old stuff again. But I don't think you're disinterested.

13:31I think maybe, you know, sometimes you're a little passive when it comes to that stuff. But if there's deception or marketing trickery going on, you're all in. I am all in because that's, you know, I was very interested when I was growing up. I was very interested in con men and scams and stuff. And I find that stuff very amusing. But when people are like doing it for real and trying to rip people off, I kind of get mad about that. yeah I'll say the industry has jaded me quite a bit as well especially when mostly honestly working on the claim side we've talked about this before cosmetic claims they're not real science you're figuring out how can I do this test to show that the product does something and so in a way the studies are designed to work especially because you are paying all this money to have them done in a third party.

14:26And so that's where, where I feel like I check out a little bit when it, when it comes to that claim side, but you're right. At the end of the day, people worry about a lot of stuff that doesn't matter to how the product performs. So an example would be with hair color. I would always get asked, well, how much is ammonia is in this hair color? And I always said, well, if I told you 1 % or 0.8%, what would you do with that information? And the answer is nothing because it doesn't mean anything to you and how it performs and it actually could mean something totally different based on the rest of the composition so no i get it i i could see where fizzy for shizzy's coming from but also maybe they have to listen to more episodes yeah yeah just do that speaking of all in we're all in on these next questions our first question comes to us from Heather.

15:23Hi Val and Perry. I'm a stylist and I have a lot of clients seeing hair thinning. One client is about my age in her 30s and it is dramatic. I think her hair loss is nutrition related. She is on iron infusions. She sent me a link to a product called Peptonix which is a copper peptide with a micro needling system. I am skeptical of everything and also they're calling it a hair growth system but that's a drug claim and i don't think this product has been evaluated by fda so i'm even more skeptical what should i tell my client is there some promise about this technology and should she invest in it and try it thanks heather peptinix here uh well boy oh boy valerie i called up their website and there's like five stars and it's trusted by over 10 ,000 plus men.

16:15So, wow. Oh, I have a lot of thoughts when I see a product where the website looks like this, when you see the reviews co-pilot, they're all laid out kind of the same way. And I feel like it is a lot of work to show someone that other people believe in this product and they should be buying it. And often when we dig deep into the technology or the claims, looking at clinical studies perhaps that the company did, you often don't see them. And I just get these vibes from this website as well, that it really is like, love it or your money back, proving to you at work, what sets us apart with like checkboxes and X's and, you know, the guarantees.

17:07And it just feels like a get rich quick scheme by the company. Yeah, it does have that feel. Now, I will say, so this is a GHK copper peptide advanced solution, blah, blah, blah. But the question was about, you know, does this, is this hair regrowth system? I don't exactly see hair regrowth. So, well, actually they say for hair regrowth. So I'm sorry, I totally do say it. But I will say in their claims, they say they promote new growth. So that would be a drug claim. But then they say improving scalp health for thicker, fuller looking hair. So that's kind of a cosmetic claim. When somebody says, well, it looks different, it looks better, then that's definitely a cosmetic claim.

18:01You can fall on that. But when they're saying they're promoting new growth, I guess that could be a cosmetic claim, too, because what does that even mean? I'm not saying it does make it grow. It just promotes the growth. So, yeah. I think that's territory drug claim. But I'll say a couple interesting things about the technology. So you mentioned they're using a copper peptide, which is really a bioactive molecule. It was discovered by a scientist named Lauren Pickard in, I think, the 70s. and it has been widely studied. It's in thousands of papers online. You can find it about its activity within the body, particularly for wound healing.

18:44And I think it was discovered that it could make older tissue look like younger tissue and all those things. But I'm not aware that it has a real role in hair growth. Now, where it could be interesting is if you're applying this peptide to your scalp and you would need to micro needle it to get it to penetrate in because your scalp is not going to be really receptive to this peptide it actually wouldn't play a role in the hair growth cycle but maybe improve the quality of the collagens within the scalp which would be important because your follicles are embedded into these layers now is this really happening I doubt it.

19:24I looked on the website to see how deep the penetration is of the microneedling process, and it's about half a millimeter, which is not very deep at all, especially when you think your scalp skin, depending on what method you're looking at to measure up a total scalp thickness is several millimeters in your in your thickest part at your youngest age or at your most optimal age. So I just did a quick look up. It says the normal thickness of human scalp measures 3.5 millimeters to 8 millimeters depending on specific area of the head exactly but it also depends what method you're using to measure the thickness there's actually no agreed upon scalp thickness and the epidermis are you talking about the epidermis or the dermis or the total so it really varies but it generally is pretty thick and so even this half millimeter microneedling i don't think is going to do a lot for anybody and also it's hard to microneedle your scalp it's you have such a low adoption rate how many times a day do you have to apply this peptide i would imagine you would need to be doing this every day and even then if this client is having some nutrition related issue a topical serum is not going to do it for her she likely needs to consult her doctor and consider ongoing something like finasteride or minoxidil i also look at the ingredients that they're calling out here licorice root extract you know i see the word extract and i just my skepticism goes through the root because there's no extract that has any like quality control there so it could be like one percent of the root squeezed out into glycerin or whatever now licorice root is really metabolically active if you're getting the active materials out but it is hard to know exactly what extract they're using and the quality as you mentioned but i wouldn't necessarily throw that out okay okay green tea extract that one i would throw out that's good yeah you know because that doesn't penetrate the skin of course panthenol in there and what's that panthenol in here we know my feelings on that which might be different than valerie's uh panax ginseng root extract i don't know i just extract like it just doesn't seem like i mean there's nothing really new in this whole product at all right we've heard of all of these ingredients very commonly used ubiquitous so the question is is it worth spending the money on it i mean you know they have yeah well i mean they are having a 40 off sale there you go i'm just kidding but no at the end of the day if this client has has internal issues this serum's not going to provide any support our next question comes to us from a patron shelly hi again perry and valerie can you please discuss the new skin ceutical ce ferulic formulation and what if any impact you feel like it could have on performance in the anti-aging arena.

22:32Thanks so much, Shelly. Have you seen the new reformulation, Perry? I mean, I saw that they did, and it looks like they kept most of the parts that they had, like the 15 % L-ascorbic acid, the 1 % vitamin E, the 0.5 % ferulic acid, which, I don't know, is part of their patent. But then they have these new additions of carnosine and a dandelion derivative called endophytal. Now, you're kind of a fan of carnosine, or you're interested in it? Carnosine, yeah. It's actually two amino acids put together, and I think amino acids are really great for skin and for hair, but it's alanine and histidine.

23:14And this little dipeptide, Simrise is the producer I know that has some really nice studies on it to show how great it is at helping reduce the appearance of hyperpigmentation and damage from high energy visible light like blue light. And this has won awards at different shows and whatnot before, but I think it could be a really interesting ingredient to use. And it's interesting that they added it. But here's where I get a little bit skeptical with SkinCeuticals. The reason they're doing this, the reason they had to enhance the formula in the first place is because their original patent is over.

23:57and so anyone can make this formula that smells like hot dog water and they have no leverage over the rest of the market but what they can do is build upon that previous patent and say well now if we put carnosine and this other you know stuff in it like this dandelion extract we can build upon on this technology with this new enhanced formula. But if this old formula was so good, why would they need to enhance it? Right. And I mean, I think the key point for me is that they're not really offering as much compelling evidence that this new formula dramatically outperforms the old one in sort of any way consumers are going to actually notice.

24:43I mean, could it be better? I mean, I don't know. I doubt it. And not with dandelion extract. But, you know, there's certainly not going to be some major leap in the wrinkle reduction or the skin aging performance just because they dropped in these other couple ingredients. You know, the reality stays the same. If you want your skin to look good, this product could be helpful for that. But, you know, using sunscreen and not smoking is going to go much more the way to helping skin. I did find it interesting that they're still using a claim on their website. And I don't think this is related to the new enhanced formulation, but it says visibly reverses 10 years of aging signs of lack of firmness and dullness.

25:32And I thought Clinique just got in hot water for that because you can't prove that it reverses like X number of years of aging. So like really, if I put this on at 35, I'm going to look 25. Huh. Or what if you put it on when you're like 12? What if your mom put it on? Are people going to think she's 76?

26:01Maybe people already think that because she still has some dark hair. Oh, my goodness. So, yeah. I think if you like the original, you're probably going to still like this one. If, you know, are you going to notice a difference from the carnosine? I don't know. It depends what your skin looks like. From an industry standpoint, this kind of thing happens all the time, especially when a company has enjoyed a patent, and then the patent runs out, and they need new news because everyone else can just make the product that they were making. So that's kind of what they do. And unless they've got a new patent, I highly doubt they got some grand new discovery and it works so much better with these new ingredients.

26:47but they needed something new to talk about. Exactly. So I would pass. Right. Well, and also I would say just because even if they did get a new patent, that doesn't necessarily mean anything either. Getting a new patent is not necessarily that hard. Also, I noticed that as of the airing of this episode, the price has increased from$182, which I think that's what the price was when the patent was still about to come off to 185 so I don't think that this given how much they're profiting already per ounce I don't think that the reformulation justifies even a three dollar price increase and in fact right I recall even just a couple years ago it was around 150 so and even you know if we go 10 years ago 125 so I think that also kind of bothers me that they did this reform they're already making a ton of money on this and they had the gall to mark it up three more dollars like as if that's gonna somehow improve their bottom line well you know inflation there we go oh goodness our next question comes to us from frank and yes the same caffeine for eyes frank yes we took a little while to answer his question previously.

28:11All right, Frank says, Greetings, beauty brains. I was recently given Bosley MD revived nursing shampoo, which supposedly he has DHT3 blockers to promote the growth of thicker, fuller looking hair. Is there any science behind this mechanism or is this just marketing? Picks of bottles and ingredients are attached and Perry has my explicit permission to use an AI Sean Connery voice for mine. Thanks. frank well you know i might not use any uh ai voices uh you know some some people have looked down on that so kind of gotten away from that although it still amuses me well what do you think you know bosley i feel like that used to be such a huge brand and it's a brand we don't we don't hear about a whole lot anymore i know that you know i heard i have bosley i always think of the Charlie's Angels, but I didn't.

29:08Am I dating myself, really? I think you just did. Yeah, that's a little old for me. You know, the Charlie's Angels, they had a few movies there, and Cameron Diaz and such, but I was more thinking of the 1970s TV shows. All right, let's look at Bosley MD, their ingredients. So first, it looks like it's sulfate-free. They're based on cocoa isothionate, sodium lauryl, yeah, isothionates. Yeah, there you go. And glycinate. So I wouldn't expect a huge amount of foaming here. But as far as, and then they have, you know, all of these extracts and other stuff to, I guess, to make the bottle. You know, they have a big bottle, so they got to make the words long.

30:02What do we have benefits here? That. They're saying that DHT blocking is a pumpkin seed extract. Or the saw palmetto is a DHT blocker. When I worked in a previous life, we worked on an anti-thinning type product. And these are common to use. There's some research. you know is it good research or promising research that saw palmetto and pumpkin can help regulate the hair cycle and reduce premature hair fallout yes but i think in a shampoo this is a challenging delivery system due to the contact time for the ingredients uh there's not a level we don't know the quality of the material in here typically pumpkin extracts are very oily they tend to be oil soluble material salt palmetto is also really hard to solubilize and so i think this probably isn't the best format now if you had a leave-on scalp serum i probably would say okay that's a better delivery system even then i would be a little skeptical of the value unless there was a clinical study related to this product yeah that makes sense so I guess the bottom line is that there is at least some sort of science story behind this, but this is not a great delivery system for that.

31:36It's unlikely to find much benefit at all. And they make some other claims which are interesting. So first of all, it's not really using medicinally active DHT blockers. They're all natural. So that also tells you a little bit about the efficacy and they talk about reducing scalp information and increasing scalp circulation, which, you know, are not really claims that you have to make. But one of the other interesting things was I thought based on the surfactant chassis, this looks like a really gentle shampoo, kind of creamy and nice. It's not going to cause a lot of hair breakage, which can sometimes lead to hair looking a little thinner.

32:17But I saw that it was for non-color treated hair. What do you think about that um well that is a little strange because they say bos revive color safe system so they're saying it's already i i guess i'm looking at the version that's for the for the non-color treated hair nourishing shampoo but then they say the color safe system that i must be a typo so this is it yeah that seems uh in conflict right there Yeah, what's the bottom line for Frank? Bottom line is this looks like an expensive shampoo, 10 ounces for$23, which is unlikely to help with hair loss. So$23 for 10 ounces, is that really expensive for shampoo?

33:09I don't think it is. Compared to this. Compared to what you can get at the drugstore, yes, it's a little pricey, but I think that's about average for like a salon quality shampoo or even a little lower. So I'm not offended by that price. But I think if you're going to buy it in the hopes that that's going to solve your hair thinning issues, I wouldn't do it. Right. We have another question from a patron, Lorena. Lorena says, hi, guys and kitties. I have bleached hair growing out. Hair is not badly damaged at all, but it is getting that dull bleached look. I have used the clear gloss DP hue and I like it.

33:49I wanted to try the one with color, but before I buy$39, which is a lot cheaper than getting gloss at a salon every eight weeks, I wanted to ask if it's damaging to hair to use it consistently for about every eight to ten weeks. I searched and it says no, but it can dull the natural hair color and build up if you're not using a cleaning product. I will eventually get a balayage. Balayage? Balayage, right. the two-tone yeah in a darker blonde a few months from now for the winter in the meantime i would like to do an at-home home gloss what is your take on the at-home home gloss product specifically the dp hue brand thank you so much lorena okay uh i i have to admit i've not had my hair ever glossed what do we got here is the emission necessary perry i presumed you've never had a hair gloss well i you know i just recently got some shade about people thinking i'm not interested in beauty products oh my goodness let's look at glazy gloss yeah the tpu gloss in the clear is a conditioner that doesn't have any colorant in it and then they have the same product also so-called gloss with different shades to help enhance your natural hair color.

35:14So think of it like stained glass for hair. And all of them provide a nice gloss or sheen to the hair. They're conditioners, so they inherently help condition the hair. And it's a non-reactive color. So the color is just chemically attracted to your hair fiber. And the color that you see is essentially the color that you get. So in terms of is this product damaging to use it consistently every eight to 10 weeks, I would actually say, no, it's not damaging because it's essentially a conditioner with coating silicones in it that help prevent hair breakage and also give shine to the hair. So I actually think it's a great product to use.

35:56In terms of it dulling the natural hair color, it is a deposit only color. And so if you overuse the product, meaning you're using it every day or multiple times a week, you're going to continue to deposit dyes onto the hair and it might alter the look of your natural hair color and, or make it look dull, depending what tone you're using. And like any product is a conditioner. So if you are not using a shampoo, you would have buildup, but if you're washing your hair like normal and you're just using this every so often, you're not going to get buildup and you're not going to get dull hair color.

36:32Now, the important thing I would say is because you do have these blondie highlights, I would pick a lighter color than you anticipate because you don't want it to deposit too dark initially and you can always use it more frequently. So I would just do a little experimenting and maybe if you go to Ulta or Sephora, if they have a tester available, they'll give you a little bit to take home for you to strand test and see how you like it. and this one looks like a kind of a small bottle for 4.8 ounces i think they have different sizes so maybe she's talking about the full retail size i'm not sure oh yeah yeah could be i'm just pricing wise this one is about double the price of the last product we talked about for five ounces it's essentially 25 you know for hair that's certainly better than spending a huge amount on getting a salon to do your hair every eight weeks.

37:31Yeah. And every hair is different by the way. So, and you have different environmental exposures and different hair fiber chemistry, depending what you do. So you might not need to use it every eight weeks or, you know, maybe you'll use it every other week. I would just play around and see. You'll know when you need to use it again. For sure. Well, it looks like we have time for one more question, Valerie. We do. Fan 5344. Yeah, no, it was, you know, somebody, we had this thing called Buzzsprout where we host our show and people can leave comments, but if they don't leave a name, they just get assigned a number.

38:09So this one was Fan 5344. Oh, goodness. Hi, Beauty Brains. I have a question for the show. I keep hearing people with my hair type, fine, oily, smooth, say they like their hair texture better after a little bleach damage because it has more hold and body and doesn't get greasy as fast any recommendations if i want to damage my hair a little bit on purpose to get this effect without changing my color i want something that won't wash out so not just styling products that simulate the effect i need it most at the root so things like heat damage that accrue over time aren't ideal since they mostly damage the roots thanks uh wait heat damage i think she means damages the roots i i don't damages the tips i think that was a 40 and slip because damage primarily does happen at the tips i created this device one time called hairy eye in my prior life and we were able to use different microscopy that attached to your iphone to assess thermal damage and it does happen at the roots not the the ends or at the happens at the tips not the roots see what i just did.

39:17Right. I see there. So, okay. So first this idea, damaging your hair, will that give you a little more volume? And I think that is pretty much true to an extent. I mean, if you damage it too much, then you get less volume. But if you have fine straight hair, a little damage will separate each fiber individually, or it'll make it a little bit curlier. And so that'll make it look like your hair actually looks fuller. That is correct. I recall working with somebody who did that because they had very fine, thin, limp baby hair, and they liked the little bit of texture change that it gave them when they did an overall lightening treatment.

40:07Right. Now, you can do this in two ways, right? You can physically damage your hair, and I think a salon stylist will do this sometimes they'll back comb so rather than comb yeah right rather than combing your hair down towards the ground you take the end and you comb up towards your head and tease it and that's going to if you go against the grain of the cuticles you're going to uplift a bunch of them and that's going to cause some damage so I guess that's what teasing is all about right yeah but i don't know if that would give you the change that fan 5344 is looking for i think it needs to be a chemical change that yeah doesn't change the hair color so what are chemical treatments that could be done i mean is it necessarily like using high ph sulfated shampoos and doing that three times in a row in one shower or like what what would do that Yeah, I mean, just washing your hair a lot is going to open up the cuticles and swell the hair a bit.

41:16So a lot of washing would certainly have that impact. Washing without using a conditioner a couple of times, that's going to damage it a bit. But, I don't know, something like the perm solution or something that won't necessarily change the color, but it certainly could damage your hair a bit. Ooh, yeah. She could get a low-level hydrogen peroxide developer, so something like a 3.3 volume or a 1 % hydrogen peroxide solution, and just kind of apply that all over the hair. Now, you may get a little bump in your hair's natural color, so it may appear a tiny bit lighter. Sure. But if you shampoo it out and then condition afterwards, you should be okay.

42:12I wouldn't leave it in. That's a popular sunlightening ingredient, especially if you go out and get UV exposure. But that could be interesting. Now, that'll really damage your hair. Which, having said all that, I don't know if it's such a great idea. Well, I'm just, I'm trying to be a solution-focused forward thinker. Sure, sure. And hair really is about what you like about hair. So if some people might like that their hair a little bit damaged, they might like that look. Look, it's not going to be bad for your health or anything. Once the hair is on your head, it's just kind of dead tissue. So you're not risking anything like that.

42:53But you might not like how it looks. Well, I would recommend probably before I try any hydrogen peroxide solution route is actually picking up something like a shampoo three from Paul Mitchell. It's a higher pH clarifying shampoo. And I remember when my hair was really soiled, that's what the people in the lab salon would put on my head and kind of let it sit a few minutes. And they would do two of those. And this was when my hair was really soiled and we were doing some scalp studies. So maybe that would be an interesting start. And like you said, don't condition afterwards. Right. Yeah, absolutely.

43:33Absolutely. Speaking of condition afterwards, I'm conditioned by the music that I hear playing. Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review. That will help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer, just like we did from Fan 5344. That's right. And if you have a question, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrains at gmail.com. Or you can use the form in the show notes of the episode, or you can call our number at 1-872-216-1856 and leave a message. Hey, incidentally, The Beauty Brains are on Patreon.

44:09If you appreciate that you're getting our honest take without influence by advertisers, that's only because we are listener supported. So if you want to support The Beauty Brains, go to patreon.com slash thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. And the bonus is that you get your questions answered in a higher priority than others that we get. Don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts on Instagram Worth of Beauty Brains 2018, on X Worth of Beauty Brains, on Blue Sky Worth of Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page, a TikTok, and a YouTube. Speaking of TikTok and YouTube, there are some new videos up there.

44:45So go check those out if you want to see Valerie and I, how we really record this show. Yeah, you know, we're not cute. Other science communicators, if you know you want to call ourselves that. They get dolled up. They have a set. They're looking good. And we just kind of show up. Looking how we look. And I told Perry, like, should we get dolled up? And the truth is, I'm just accepting who I am and how I look. And I would like for you guys to accept that. And well, I certainly do. As you. I think we look fine. Well, thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

45:26Thanks everyone!