The Beauty Brains

0:00Hi, I'm Perry and you're listening to The Beauty Brain.

0:13Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 433. I'm your host, Perry Romanowski, and with me today is Valerie George. Hello, Valerie. Hi, Perry. Valerie, we got a big show today. On today's show, we're covering questions like, does Keristos Thermic Heat Protected work? What do we think of the Lavo Hair Roll-On Serum? Do oils and body washes actually help with moisturization? Do derivatives of actives show good results? And is the Anua Azoleic Acid just clever to marking, or is it actually a working product.

0:55First, some of that chit-chat. Valerie, it seems like you've got a little bandage on there. Well, it's not little. I have three inch stitches on my cheek, kind of towards my ear, and I had my basal cell carcinoma removed, and stitches were bigger than I thought they would be. Oh, yeah. So, you know, they're not very noticeable, at least on camera here. Well, it's covered up. But the challenge is they had to actually make the stitches bigger because my, the shape of the carcinoma was kind of round and extended out. And he wanted to do the stitches, you know, perpendicular to the ground. So it didn't cut under the front of my eye.

1:41And in order to do that, he said, usually the skin just kind of closes, especially if it's on like older people who have looser, looser skin. And he said, but your skin's very taut. And so he had to make the incision a lot bigger due to the shape to get it to close in the direction he wanted. But I think it was, you know, the actual like carcinoma was nickel sized. And they had to, you know, go a little bigger than that to make sure they got everything. You know, I have to say, hearing your story, now it makes me look at my skin differently. So every little spot, you're like, oh, is that one? Is that one?

2:19It kind of makes you unnerved. Well, when's the last time you've had a skin check? I went to one last year. Did they have any spots? Like, oh, hey, we'll watch that spot? Or you were good? No, nothing. Although, the way these dermatologists do it, I mean, he scanned me pretty quick. I'm like, really? That's all you do? I'm like, okay. Yeah, they're very fast. And my dermatologists always seem to remember, oh, that guy. Yeah, that one looks like our little fried egg friend. And she knew, but I'd gone to her for like, I don't know, 15 years. But new guy, he scanned pretty quick. And I showed him my spots of concern and he agreed.

2:56So you got to check yourself in addition to being checked. Yeah. Do you think he would have missed it though, if you didn't tell him? Not the one on the cheek, I don't think. Okay. Yeah. That kind of reminds me of like a dentist though. You ever go to a new dentist? So you go to a dentist for years and you never have any cavity. then you go to a new dentist and then you find all these cavities i'm like really yeah all the things wrong yeah but one interesting fact i learned um having had a baby last year is that pregnant women are more predisposed to cavities like on the surface of the teeth yeah that's what my dentist told me but they were able to just kind of file away some stuff i didn't have to have like a whole lot of work done well i'm fortunate i haven't had cavities in years but maybe as you get older that you just don't get them.

3:46I've actually never had an adult cavity. I think once as a child, I had a cavity and I would be, I don't remember. I would have lost it in a baby tooth. Yeah. I had like none. And then I went to a new dentist. He's like, oh, you got eight. And I'm like, it seems, it seems a little suspicious that they would have missed all those years. I'd get a second opinion for sure. Yeah. All right, Valerie, shall we move on to beauty news?

4:17Valerie, you know how I'm very interested in the AI stuff? And I'm the opposite of interested in AI. Yeah. We complement each other. The yin and the yang of AI. I'm IA, you're AI. I will say that I'm a bit of an AI skeptic, though. I can appreciate some of the tools and using it for creating, but I can also appreciate the problems with it. And I do think that it certainly has the potential and probably likely will lead to a lot of unemployment because they're just jobs you won't need anymore. I feel like when I, Butch or Frank, we didn't know who, once ate an entire bottle of vitamin E. They're very tall dogs, so they jumped up on the counter and took it and ate the whole thing.

5:07And we weren't sure who ate it, Butch or Frank. And so we called animal poison control and Mr. Cosmetic Chemist was like, that voice you're talking to is a bot. And I was like, no, it's just a really, you know, mellow, low level guy. And he was like, no, he's definitely a bot. And he would be like, say this, say that. And I, sure enough, I'm pretty sure it was a bot. And Mr. Cosmetic Chemist was like, ask him if he's a bot. And I'm like, I'm not going to ask him if he's a bot. and anyway nonetheless i am 100 sure it was a bot and i think yeah some in some instances careers will be displaced by ai but i don't necessarily think in the cosmetics industry and if you're interested by the way it wasn't frank that ate the vitamin e basically this bot told me if butch ate it he's fine because he's huge if frank ate it it could shut his kidneys down and so we had to take Frank to go get his kidneys or his stomach pumped.

6:08And turns out Butch is the one who ate it. But anyway, poor Frank. But back to AI. Yeah, okay. Well, I saw this article published in Nature, where some researchers looked at how people in Morocco traditionally use olive oil for skincare. And traditionally, grandmas have taught their kids how to use it. And so in that way, people learn, by touching the skin, smelling the oil, seeing what it does for your own skin. So it's not something that you can read about in a book. But these researchers wanted to say, oh, how would AI chatbots be for giving skincare advice that's traditional advice like this?

6:48And so first they asked four different LLMs, and they gave it barely any details. Then they asked again with more and more details. And what they found was that the more details they gave the AI, its answers got better and it sounded more like it understood the culture. But even the best AI still couldn't answer the kinds of things that a grandma can do where you can actually touch the kid's skin, you can smell if the oil is fresh. And, you know, remember like the last time we used this on your cheeks and that helps. And so some individual customized stuff. So the AI can only kind of work with words and pictures, but it can't really smell anything or touch anything.

7:29And so no matter how much information you give this, AIs and LLMs are always going to be lacking, at least in that one. And until we figure out a way that we can get these AIs to smell and touch things, I think, you know, we're still going to need grandmas and their advice. It's interesting because I think a lot of people have egos about their ability to do things that perhaps AI can't. But I will say that on the formulation side, there are a lot of aspects to formulation or how things work or how clinical studies are designed that AI just can't tell. And I can't tell you how many times, oh, I put the formulation we paid you to do into AI or I just made this eye cream with AI and it's missing a preservative.

8:18Or they just don't understand the nuance of using certain ingredients. And sure, those are things that AI could learn. But how is AI going to get the information? A lot of this stuff, I just think, is trade secret or things that you learn on the job or from experience. Like, oh, you don't want to do that because in production this could happen. And I don't think AI can put that information together. It's pretty black or white. Right. And also, AI, at least as far as ingredients go, AI is trained on what is published on the Internet. and that stuff is not necessarily the same stuff that's intercompany knowledge about ingredients and formulas.

8:55What it more is, is the sort of marketing information that raw material suppliers are going to put out and overhype. And so AI is trained on all this marketing information about ingredients. And so when you talk to it and ask it questions about the effectiveness of ingredients, they are going to way overplay what these ingredients can actually do, in my opinion. exactly hey valerie i did you know what i i did this experiment with ai and you know you can talk to chat gpt i didn't know that just put a little button there and you go hey chat gpt hey good to hear from you what's up yeah did you hear it yeah um yeah i hear you just fine what's on your mind did you pick her voice like what there's like five different voices but let me ask this i want to give you a demonstration of the knowledge of AI.

9:48So, hey, ChetGPT, can you know the ingredient peppermint oil? Yes, absolutely. Peppermint oil is a volatile essential oil distilled from the peppermint plant. Okay, great, great. Yeah, that's great. Can you just tell me how many E's are in the word peppermint oil? Sure. In peppermint oil, E shows up three times, two in peppermint and And one in oil. Three times. So, wait, how do you spell oil? O-I-L. So that's O-I-L. Yep. So zero E's there. Just the two in peppermint. Wait, you just told me there was one in oil. You caught that right. I misspoke there. Oil has no E's. So peppermint oil has two E's total.

10:37Both are in the word peppermint. Thanks for flacking that. All right, thanks. Doesn't know how to spell. She's an idiot. Well, I will say there are some basic errors that an AI will make that a human wouldn't make. Although I suppose some people think oil is spelled with an extra E. Just go through. If you want to do this experiment yourself, ask ChatGPT how to spell the word 17. It can't tell you how many E's there are there either. But that's a kind of error that humans wouldn't make, but AIs do make. But there are plenty of errors that humans make that AIs wouldn't make. And so you just got to be careful using these things.

11:18And right now, they're not taking over quite yet. Well, they're not winning spelling bees, that's for sure. Try having them spell mozzarella. That's what got Mr. Cosmetic Chemist kicked out of a spelling bee in seventh grade. You know, I went to a bar and they were having spelling bee at the bar. And I think I'm a decent speller. certainly if I write it out on paper I can spell it but standing up there and having to see it in your brain it's a lot harder than you you might think well when Mr. Cosmetic Chemist told me the story and he you know said oh to be fair the teacher and he recalled the name and all the details leaned forward into the microphone it said mozzarella and that's what prompted him to spell it wrong I was like oh my gosh but then I misspelled it he said you spell it and you know I didn't do it right.

12:08Did you put a TZ there? No, I said there was an E instead of an A or something like that. Gotcha. Well, it's tricky to spell, but don't count on ChatGPT to do it for you. Yeah, no, good lesson. All right, we ready to move on.

12:29We have some listener feedback. Last week on our episode, we shared that someone basically was like, what's his deal? Why does he even do this? He's so pessimistic. And so we have feedback from a listener. It was super hard to hear that person who wrote that Perry seems uninterested in the pod. It made me mad that someone could be so nasty and critical. I wonder what their lives are like. Anyway, Perry is awesome and his laid back chill personality who is rightfully skeptical and thank you for looking out for our interests should not be mistaken for a lack of interest. He is a kind man. I know from being on Chemist Corner where a lot of chemistry people are jerks to beginners and Perry was always so kind.

13:11So Perry, please don't let one miserable mean person get to you because you are awesome. Wow, that is very nice. And you know what? It's strange. I didn't take that as like an insult or anything. I thought somebody was just genuinely curious. And you know, when someone asks, oh, are you interested in this? I can see how my skepticism slash cynicism could make people think I'm a bit negative on this. But, you know, I just, you know, I want to be a consumer advocate. And that's what our show is about. I think you're pretty laid back in the sense that, like, you let stuff roll off you. Like, you know, where maybe someone says something about you online and, you know, your wife might read it and, you know, oh, my gosh, I can't believe.

13:54And you just, you laugh. You don't let stuff bother you. And I think that's a really good characteristic to have. Oh, why, thank you. Well, you know what I do? I live in the future so I always imagine like in five years will I even remember this and it's usually not so that helps me roll things off my back well that's a good good good treat to have Perry all right Valerie let's head on to the questions our first question comes to us from Laura she says hi beauty brains I have heard a lot of great things about Kerastase Thermic heat protectant but cannot afford a heat protectant at that price point what is all the fuss about and are there similar more budget-friendly options available thank you laura kerastas not known for being cheap right no not at all yeah now i wasn't sure if this product was the nutritive heat protecting styling cream for dry hair so this would be like essentially an anti-frizz mask according to Sephora.

14:59Or if this was an older product that's pink and it's in a bottle with a pump and it's a different blowout cream, not nutritive. Usually with a styling cream, you have styling polymers that are present and these inherently offer some kind of heat protection to the hair. But what's interesting about this product is it actually appears to be more of a leave-in conditioner and doesn't necessarily have styling polymers per se, but it does have ingredients like amodimethicone that can help afford some heat protection on the hair. It also has a variety of other silicones, dimethicone, PEG PPG 1718 dimethicone, has a little potato starch, a lot of polymers in here.

15:48Yeah, the potato starch and probably the hydrolyzed corn protein are going to give what's called like a really light styling effect, but the real world courses are the silicones that you mentioned. And so are there less expensive options than this? I feel like this is a pretty generic product. I actually would walk into any Walmart, Target, and head for Garnier. They are a L 'Oreal owned brand and the Garnier Fructis style smooth blow dry anti-frizz cream it's in a tube actually has a very similar ingredient list it includes dimethicone it also includes ammo dimethicone we also have this potato starch and even quaternium 87 which is a really nice conditioning ingredient that has some anti-frizz properties as well as some thermal protection properties so i feel like this is pretty close.

16:46Yeah. I saw, and it's always a good idea to, because Kerastase, maybe people don't know that, but L 'Oreal owns Kerastase. And so it's always helpful to look for brands put out by the same company because generally you're sharing technologies. Exactly. And even some of the conditioning agents are the exact same. The polyquaternium for the behinem trimonium chloride. So I think this would be a pretty safe bet. And Garnier, I know, is always at a really great price. Yeah. And, you know, if you wanted to look for a different company brand, you know, Pantene has their leave-in heat protectant products too.

17:28And, you know, just because Pantene is a big company and they do a lot of research, they're going to have decent formulas too, which will be much less expensive than Kerastase. Yeah, I feel like Kerastase is a packaging experience, a set experience. in europe though here um they're traditionally found like in salons in europe they have different levels some are salons some are yeah just made at retail but yeah it's very expensive here well it started out not as a l 'oreal brand it started as an independent brand that got bought up by l 'oreal right exactly valerie looked superfan timothy's back i actually was thinking of him the other day and i thought we haven't heard from superfan timothy in a while so he's still a super fan.

18:13Well, it turns out he is a super fan. Hi, Beauty Brains. I know I haven't asked a question for a while, but you bet I've been listening closely. Lately, I've been trying harder to take care of my hair. I saw this ad from a dermatologist I like who often talks about hair loss. Is this product helpful? Thank you, Timothy. P.S. My partner and I just got married and we got a kitten as a gift. I'd been wanting another cat. I just thought you'd love that. Feel free to share or not oh another kitten that's fun you know i'm still doing porch kitty on tiktok so check it out we actually we took the two we have two kittens so we might keep them probably i think you should i think you should well tell me what you think about this brand by

18:59this brand advertised by dermacologist which is the tiktok name of the dermatologist you know just before we talk about this i i can i just mention how i find it a little unseemly for dermatologists and other professionals to be hawking products like this i don't know just It just, like when it's just some influencer who uses products and they like it, I totally get that, you know? It's just your experience here. But when you're a dermatologist or you're even a cosmetic chemist and you talk, you have the imprimatur of, oh, I'm a scientist and that's why you should listen to me. I just find that a little unseemly.

19:40We shouldn't be scientist advertisers or your doctor shouldn't be like an advertiser. All right, let me get off my high horse. Because I do understand it's hard to make money online and takes a lot of work. And so that's just my personal opinion. But I do understand why people do it. Well, I'm on a soapbox helping you step down from your high horse. So as I transition off the soapbox, let me just add a little bit to that. I agree. We don't take ads on our podcast. We also don't take money from brands on our personal social medias. It's just not who we are as people. because once you take money, you are biased because you have to say what they want you to say.

20:21In fact, brands give you talking points to cover in whatever post you agree to get paid for posting. And I don't think you can publicly state both sides of the coin, meaning look at the product from both angles, like the pros and cons of using it in terms of how it falls in efficacy and if it's going to really add value to you. And some may say, well, I would never promote a product I don't believe in. Well, we would never know that because at the end of the day, you took money. And people will say, well, I have to make a living doing this. I don't know. I just, there's other ways to make money.

20:57Yeah, like you can do the job of a dermatologist. Like making videos, that's a different job. I mean, fine, you're educating people and all. But I don't know. When you're taking money from brands, you're kind of a little bit miseducating people because you're not going to tell them all of the information that's available. Because some of that information may be, hey, look, this product probably isn't going to help you that much, but buy it anyway. Because, you know, the brands that are really cheap, that are effective, they usually don't have paid money to influencers or affiliate programs or things.

21:33And you never have the full story about the formula. Like they did not disclose the formula to this dermatologist. And it's not just him. I don't want to pick on him. A lot of people online who post about products aren't experienced in formulation or scale up or know all the nuances. Dermatologists are doctors of skin. They're not experienced in formulating. So that being said, I've helped you off the horse. You helped me off the soapbox. Thank you. let's talk about lab o scalp strengthening roll-on serum i mean i so let's see the first the ingredients i'm looking in here and they're just using emollients in here you know they have a thickener they use the lactobacillus ferment lysate which i think we talked about previously on the show where that has some supplier data that says something about hair growth well generally all ferments or ferment lysates or ferment extracts are really great at hydrating and softening the skin it doesn't matter what organisms they come from they're really great at that now that being said i do want to point out that polysorbate 20 is a solubilizer it's the second ingredient yeah everything here is likely under one percent and i never like to get tied up been concentrations, but we probably have 30 ingredients here.

23:03That's a lot of ingredients. Under 1%. And at the end of the day, beta-glucan generally requires a few percent to impart its beta-glucan properties. Ceramides don't need to be in at a high level, but I can tell you for sure they're not in a high level here, given it's a rock-solid lipid in a water serum. But if we look at the claims here, what does it even claim? It's going to be scalp strengthening roll-on serum. I don't even know what that means. It's kind of implying that it strengthens your hair without actually saying it. It says scalp strengthening. Does your scalp need strengthening? I think aging scalp needs improvement in density or thickness.

23:48I think you need a lot of collagen and elastin. but is this like strengthening the hair fibers? Is this like anchoring them in? Is it strengthening the skin? We don't know. Yeah. And, oh, look, at 100 % of people noticed improved visibility of hair density. I never take consumer survey data as meaning much. Yeah. Hydrates of scalp. These are all kind of just general talks. So I don't know. I doubt that you'll see any benefit from using this product. And if you see the guy in TikTok do it, he's rolling this on his hair. You're not going to get an even coating. I don't know. No, because the ball actually has to push in and roll to distribute serum out of it.

24:43I think the roller is a hard format. We actually, in another project, ruled that out as an application method. Just a really low rate of adoption. But the other thing I want to point out is it's used daily or as you feel like you need it. And as you feel like you need it, it's probably not enough for a scalp product. You would need really daily application. If you're going to get any benefit at all, which I think is still debatable. All right, Timothy, I hope that was helpful for you and congrats on the kitten. Our next question comes to us from Rachel. Hello, Perry and Valerie. I have some questions I hope you can answer.

25:21First of all, I wanted to say I'm in Perry's formulating course on Chemist Corner and it has been really insightful. I'm not in the industry, but I like to make beauty products for myself and a few close friends. Oh, that's nice. Thanks. First question. I've been looking at body washes, shampoos, and face cleansers and hopes to make one soon. I'm a little confused about moisturizing body washes and cleansers. Since the goal of a cleanser is to clean is adding shea butter or petrolatum to a cleanser counterintuitive since the surfactant is trying to find dirt and oil to remove from our bodies or hair is adding oils and other things basically making the surfactant confused about whether to clean our bodies or clean the shea butter in the formula or am i completely wrong and it just makes the cleanser less cleansing that's a good question you know we might diverge in opinions on this one so so let's See, so my opinion on this is that you are correct that the goal of a cleanser is to remove oils.

26:20And so when you put an oil in a body wash or a cleanser, you essentially are tying up some of the surfactant. So instead of it cleaning your face, it's being tied up with the actives in there, and then it's all just going to rinse down the drain. So in my view, putting oils into cleansing products is almost a complete waste. I agree. However, probably for different reasons. Oils are so incompatible in surfactant systems that they almost always destroy stability, viscosity, clarity. They have differing polarities. It's hard to use them at any meaningful level. So when you see a cleanser with something that's literally oily, like shea butter, which is a solid, or petrolatum, there is barely any in there.

27:15And I implore you to spend all this money on HPLC trying to find it in the formula because it's probably not in there. And then let's say you wanted to get any meaningful amount in there. You would be adding so many things to try to get it to stay in the formula and not ruin the formula's stability. it would be the grossest cleanser on the planet. So I've never understood adding it, not because it doesn't make the cleanser less cleansing. It's a lot of work and it is not a good product at the end of the day. Now, I will say that I do believe Procter & Gamble has some suspending technology specifically for petrolatum because they have a line, I think it's a Pantene line, where they, like the third ingredient is petrolatum.

28:06And so I think they're using structured surfactants to sneak it in between into the structure. And when you use the product, it still foams a bit and you do feel the hair or the skin. It actually feels like there's something coated there. So there could be some technology tricks that you can do to get some plating out, but it still is not as good as if you use a general cleanser and then used a moisturizer or something afterwards. That's a different, a structured surfactant system, that was a totally different ballgame. In fact, they don't feel cleansing at all, even if you didn't have the metrolatum in there.

28:43So I think, and speaking of like traditional cleansing formulas, not going to work. Right, I agree. All right, so better is to use a cleanser that doesn't have oils in it and then use a moisturizer afterwards. Now, there is one ingredient that I can agree putting in, especially if you want the skin to feel a little soft and buttery afterwards. And it's a material by BASF. I mean, many people make it now, but I think they're the OG producers of it. It is a blend of cocoa glucoside and glycerol oleate. And I actually really like this in body washes at just a few percent. It's a really nice addition.

29:26you just have to you know make sure it's a little acidic or it doesn't want to incorporate because it's pretty globby but i do like the way skin feels after that now does it make a cleanser less cleansing that part i don't know because it's part surfactant part glycerol oleate but i will say if you don't want something as cleansed feeling it's a nice alternative yeah that makes sense all right rachel actually had a second question she says i seem to have the most sensitive skin on the planet. I have been trying to add actives in my routine, namely exfoliating acids, vitamin C, and retinol, but seem to get rashes with most of these.

30:06Do derivatives of these actives produce good results or should I not bother? Also, are the lesser known ingredients used in Korean skincare a good substitute for the actives used here in America? Thanks so much, and I love the show, Rachel. All right. Yeah, some of the actives, if they're in there at high enough levels, can certainly irritate skin. Yes. And if you are really sensitive, everyone thinks they're more sensitive than they are. But if you are really sensitive and find that you're reacting, getting rashes with everything, I probably would say less is more. I avoid exfoliating acids almost completely as well as vitamin C and retinol just because I find I get postular rosacea like very easily on my cheeks anytime I use anything.

30:57And so do I reach for the derivatives of these actives? The answer is no, because they're less effective. So I mean, I just, you know, I just avoid them because of retinol palmitate, nice material, probably not doing a whole lot with the amount that gets in your skin. Right it's a balance because that thing that irritates the skin is the thing that's making it work and so if you want to make it less irritating you have to make it work less so it's it's a tough balance with these actives. Now some tricks are they try to I don't know encapsulate these ingredients or otherwise isolate them from the formula so there's slower release or something but those technologies I think are kind of crude and not particularly effective.

31:47I bought this cream off French Pharmacy called A313 because it essentially is like a petrolatum type base with a ton of retinol palmitate in it and I can tell you I did not get any retinol-like effects from this cream. Better to use retinol except I can't. Are the lesser known ingredients used in Korean skincare a good substitute? And the answer is, I don't know the answer to that. But I think if you have sensitive skin and are easily irritated, things that may also cause reactivity for you are botanical extracts, fragrances, and I do know that those are used a lot in Korean skincare. Right. I think things that would be less, potentially less irritating would be things like peptides, just because they're made up of the same building blocks that your skin is made up of.

32:42So perhaps that would be less, but I'm skeptical of how effective those things and things are. I'm surprised you recommended them. I'm like a little in shock. I didn't say anything for a second because I was like, did he really just recommend peptides? I'm saying when people use skincare products, I'm skeptical of most ingredients. However, some people will use something and they get a good result and if that makes them feel good then go ahead and use it now whether it's that active ingredient actually doing anything i don't know but if you use a product and you get an effect then something's happening so i think the best results come from a routine that's like a majority of the battle it's less about what's in the product because most products don't have a meaningful amount of anything in them but i think if you can have a good routine down and use things that don't flare your skin up, you'll see a lot of results.

33:35And then also it might be worth seeing a dermatologist and getting a prescription that is suitable for your skin. So the derms can prescribe all kinds of things that might be better for you. For example, I mean, I have rosacea, so I have a 15 % azelaic acid prescription, and it's really helpful for keeping the redness and pustules at bay. But you might be able to get be a retinol derivative or some kind of drug active that will help you achieve your skin goals that you can't get on the market. And keeping it simple that way would be better. You know, it's interesting you mentioned azialic acid because that's the subject of our last question.

34:16This one comes to us from super fan to Misty. She's a patron supporter. Thank you so much, Misty. And she's asked a bunch of questions in the past. But here's one, which is like a little kerfuffle on the internet. Hi beauty brains. I have recently figured out that I have rosacea. I have heard a lot about azelaic acid but have always heard about problems with texture. I have been considering trying Anua azelaic acid since people have reported it doesn't have this problem. Literally the same week social media decided to start a controversy about this product. As far as I can tell, it started with some cosmetic chemists.

34:57It's above my pay grade, something about bioavailability of a suspension at a low pH versus solubilizing at a high pH, maybe. There have been many responses from other chemists, dermatologists, but I don't know what to believe until I've heard from my two favorite cosmetic chemists, Harry and Valerie. Is the Anua Azelaic Acid just clever marketing, or is this actually a product that delivers enough azelaic acid in a cosmetically appealing form? And she put some links to some of the controversy. Yeah, there were a couple of cosmetic chemist-ish types. It's hard to know who actually has done the job of a cosmetic chemist when they're on social media, but let's just assume they are.

35:43But the one I saw most interesting was they had some dermatologists on there who had a pretty long explanation about this. But basically, Valerie, what's going on here is they say the one TikTok said they measured the pH of the anua azoleic acid and the pH was above 7. And they said, well, because of the way azoleic acid works, if it's not in the acid form, then it's not working. and that's where the controversy started. I mean at the end of the day I think it penetrates what's extremely acidic mean. It's not an acid like an exfoliating acid like yes it has pKa's but it doesn't have to be at a pH of like 3.9 to get into the skin.

36:37Right so what I've seen on this is that this is a formulation strategy, right? You keep it at a high pH, but the important thing to know is that the pH of something that's in the jar is not necessarily the pH conditions that it gets to once it's applied to the skin. The skin, while it doesn't have a pH, it has a isoelectric point where you would say pH of five or five and a half or something. And so when you put a pH product that's seven in the jar and you put it on your skin, well, that's going to combine with the hydrogens and that's there. And it's going to reduce the overall environmental pH to somewhere between those.

37:21There was one interesting study because I think the consensus online here is that, well, it's no good because the pH isn't low enough, but there was one study. And again, both of these are acidic pHs 3.9 and 4.9 that looked at mouse studies, but very common skin to look at. And they found that the pH of 4.9 actually had better penetration than the 3.9, which if your pH theory was the only factor, you would say, well, the 3.9 should have done better than the 4.9, but that's not the case. There's a lot of other formulation strategies that can be deployed for getting a product to penetrate into the skin.

38:08One of them is just sheer concentration and azelaic acid for prescription use, the minimum is 15%. And the strategy here is concentration gradient. You just flood the skin with it. And this allows the most amount possible to get into the skin. There is a 20 % azelaic prescription as well. And I think I saw one study that showed it didn't outperform the 15%. So 15 % is a good baseline to use on a prescription level to show efficacy and the formulation strategy is flooding. There's also a foam and a gel available. I've had both. I personally don't like the foam. It's very lipidy feeling, whereas I like the watery feel of the gel.

38:57They both have the same efficacy in terms of how it gets into the skin. So whether it's in a water medium or a more lipid-based medium. And as an aside, azelaic acid is hardly water soluble, so it's really challenging to formulate with. And the formulations on the market are usually very simple to keep it in solution. So that would be a key. Well, it says 10 % azelaic acid. Yeah. 10 % is not 15%, which is prescription, but it doesn't have to be in the ionized form to be able to get into skin. It can get into skin without that. I mean, even the prescription creams are not 3.9, 4.1. They're around five, which is a nice skin-friendly pH.

39:44and that pH is just one tactic. Again, it's the vehicle it's in, it's the concentration that you're throwing at the skin and it's the other materials in there that can aid penetration. There's also one interesting study on salicylic acid. I know it's not the same, but they showed, the researchers in this study showed a lot of efficacy of salicylic acid in a neutral state. It didn't have to be in its ionized form. to provide the efficacy that we know salicylic acid to have. So who's to say that this couldn't be the case for azelaic acid? And besides, let's say I had a formula with a pH of 7 with azelaic acid, and I had a formula with a pH of 3.

40:30Your skin adjusts the pH anyway. It buffers over time and produces different components to get the pH where it wants to be. So it's a moot point anyway what pH was applied, because within two to four hours, your pH will be normalized. Yeah, so I think the bottom line here is that, no, this isn't just clever marketing. This is a formulation strategy, and it is a legit strategy that can still deliver an effective product. And whether your skin will be okay using the anua azelaic acid, I think that's something you've just got to try yourself. And the other thing with azelaic acid, just as an aside, it's not a quick win.

41:15It's a tortoise and the hare. It's the tortoise, except the slow version of the tortoise. And so you need to use it twice daily, and you need to use it for a long time to get any real kind of impact, as an aside. So just in case you do use the serum and after a couple weeks you say it's not working, it's really a slow game. If you're looking for something quick, this is not the acid for you. Speaking of quick, do you quickly hear that music? Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. That will help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.

41:57You can also check us out on Spotify. yeah and if you have a question you can just record that on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrains at gmail.com or you can use the form in the show notes on this episode or call 1-872-216-1856 hey the beauty brains are also on patreon if you appreciate the fact that we don't take advertising and we're not supported by brand deals which you know i've heard about how much money some people make and I'm like what? Anyway, we're still not, neither of us are really driven by money in that way, much to the chagrin of our spouses.

42:38But we do need some money to keep the show going so if you want to support the show, head on over to patreon.com slash thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. You also get the show early, you get a higher priority of your questions and a transcript. Also follow us on our various social media accounts on Instagram, We're at the Beauty Brains 2018, on X, We're at the Beauty Brains, on Blue Sky, We're at the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page, a TikTok, and a YouTube. Valerie, we have about 10 shorts up there, so you can see the show going online. Well, thanks again for listening, everyone.

43:10And remember, be brainy about your beauty. Thanks, everyone.

43:20Kittens!