2025 Oscar Nominations: Snubs, Surprises, and WTFs

26:08What would you equate this performance for Chalamet? This is also, by the way, Chalamet's second nomination because he was also nominated for Lucasfilm. Call Me By Your Name. Call Me By Your Name. Thank you. Sure. But was not nominated for Dune, which would be his Titanic. So then he's nominated here for, was Leo nominated for Catch Me If You Can? I mean, very different. The Aviator, was he nominated for The Aviator? Let's take a look at those nominations. Worth scouring. But again, The Aviator in terms of... What's Eating Gilbert Grape was his first. Yeah, sure. That's the Call Me By Your Name.

26:44And then The Aviator was second. Okay. So this is The Aviator, yeah. Yeah. Blood Diamond was third, which is your favorite. Sure, yeah. An incredible episode of The Rewatchables. If you are looking for a way to just escape the world. Many people are saying. The Wolf of Wall Street, The Revenant, and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Of course, it took him Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I would argue that him getting Passover for Wolf of Wall Street and Django is like bizarre. And then ultimately they gave it to him for Revenant. But you know, you could have made the case that The Aviator is a movie, it isn't our favorite Martin Scorsese movie, but it's a very accomplished movie.

27:18He's really good in that film. Yeah. He's a little young to be doing some of the things he does in that movie, but you could make the same case for Chalamet. Right. But so that indicates to me that I don't really know if it's going to happen. Okay. But I mean, we'll talk more about The Brutalist. and about Brody. And about that and that Golden Globe speech also, which, you know, he did have the opportunity and I don't think he totally nailed the speech. Well, I think there are other issues that they're going to have to contend with in that respect. Let's carve out 15 minutes to discuss that at the end of this conversation.

27:50Supporting actress. This was also one of the most competitive categories because there were so many contenders. I was convinced that Jamie Lee Curtis was getting in. So was I. And she did not get in. No. Daniel Deadweiler also did not get in. Yeah. Margaret Qualley also did not get in. The nominees for Supporting Actress are... Monica Barbaro, which does give credence to your alphabet theory because she took the question mark spot with that B. On the other hand, Isabella Rossellini getting recognized does not. No, but I predicted it. You did. You did. I didn't realize this was her first nomination, which when you think about it, makes sense.

28:27But she's Isabella Rossellini, so she's like in the firmament. Yeah. You assume that she's been there. Really, it was just her mom. She's cinema royalty and also I don't think this was a factor at all because of when voting closed but a lot of people are re-watching Blue Velvet right now since David Lynch passed away and obviously her performance in that movie is tremendous and very upsetting and very powerful and kind of like etched into movie history so it's not shocking to see her there I had her as an alt Ariana Grande we mentioned already Felicity Jones for The Brutalist some people were predicting would miss I know you're probably going to have some strong opinions about that character and Zoe Saldana who's almost certainly going to win this category.

29:03Not a lot, much like in Supporting Actor, not a lot of tension or heat in this race. We were just kind of waiting to see who made the four or five spots. who gets to show up. Yes. So, it's okay. Yeah. I don't know. I don't really have any other notes. Jamie Lee Curtis will probably still be there because she's an Oscar winner and a member of the Academy. So, she'll get to have a nice night out. Yes. You know? That's right. Maybe she'll even present. You know? Could be. She loves to be in the mix. Yes. She's a cheerleader for the industry. Actress in a leading role. We mentioned Cynthia Erivo has already made it.

29:38This is her second nomination. Carla Sofia Gascon with her first nomination for Amelia Perez. Mikey Madison, also her first nomination. Demi Moore with her first nomination for The Substance. And Fernanda Torres for her first nomination. Some, what is it, 27 years after her mom, I believe, was nominated for Central Station. So, Fernanda Torres. You seen that movie yet? No, I'm pissed off because... Now you've got to watch it. No, no, I was going to watch it anyway because it's nominated an international feature. And I think, I mean, I do think Emilio Perez will win there. So, but it's a contender.

30:14But I thought I had it locked up where I would have seen everything that was nominated. Oh, interesting. This is the one you haven't gotten up to yet. Yeah, and so I picked The Apprentice for that reason. Yeah, smart. You did not believe in Fernanda. Well, I went to see Har-Truth instead. And I'm incredibly glad I did because that is an absolutely amazing movie. I was absolutely, I was bowled over by it. I can't wait to talk to you about it. I think Marianne Jean-Baptiste should have been nominated and that's one of the, you know, I haven't seen, I'm Still Here, so I can't speak to Fernando Torres and we try not to do the taking away, snub, whatever, but that's just a loss.

30:50That was an incredible movie. She would have been my pick to win. Yeah. I, Hard Truth was completely shut out. I had it, I think, in original screenplay as well. and the Academy you know over the years has really liked Mike Lee's movies we haven't had an opportunity to talk about him too much on the show because I think he's only released one film in the last seven years but yeah Fernando Torres is clearly in that spot that at least I had been holding for Marianne Jean-Baptiste and you've mentioned the Brazilian contingent is very strong this movie is resonating with people it did not really resonate with me it is a very important story and it's obviously deeply important to the history of Brazil and tragic in so many ways the actual movie itself, I didn't really connect with, but it is clearly connecting with lots and lots of people.

31:34I will also say, I saw Fernanda Torres at the W Magazine Best Performances party. She looked very stunning and she, very elegant. I'd like to age like that if I could. And also, you know, it was like there in the mix. So, she's campaigning. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. That's allowed. For the longest time, I thought this was a very easy Mikey Madison in Ingenue Best Actress Coasting Wind and now it just feels like it's Demi Moore. Demi Moore, yeah. And that's just over. Well, that's nice. Is there going to be like any surprises in the major categories? Actor? We're not totally sure. I mean, it's a bit of a coin flip.

32:15I don't know if it'll be a surprise. We're getting a little bit in the acting categories because of the number of precursors that we now have and the level of visibility for those precursors. This happens every year. More so in the last three, though. The last three years, I think going back to everything, everywhere, all at once. It was kind of pretty clear after SAG what was going to happen. Yeah, but SAG was pretty late, and it flipped. I think we thought on nominations morning that it was going to be Cate Blanchett, and then once Michelle Yeoh won at SAG, we were like, oh, it's Michelle Yeoh.

32:47And same for Jamie Lee Curtis. Yeah. But then that was a kind of concretizing of a potential narrative. Sure, but we're not there yet. That's true. That's true. okay any other critical surprises to you? I thought September 5 in original screenplay was a bit strange it's a movie that I like I like it too you know very like well made modest venture I interviewed Tim Feldbaum that'll run on the show next week the writer and director who's nominated here very competently written screenplay very unflashy we've often cited this category as the cool category this is where like the most interesting and transgressive movies usually go.

33:25Right. No challengers. Yeah. Disappointing. No hard truths. No hard truths. No A Different Man, which was never going to happen, but like, was a cool screenplay. Kind of a bummer. Yeah. I don't really get it. It's a little bit like the, I call this like the Belfast category, which is like, fine movie till it wins best picture, which it didn't, you know? But I was just like, well, I kind of liked it. Like, very accomplished. Yes. But I'm not totally sure what's going on here. Yes. There's a Gentleman's Six and a Lady's Seven, and September 5 is a Lady's Seven. Good movie. I liked it. Four nominations for Nosferatu.

34:04As they were going through the nominations, you texted me, and I was feeling exactly what you texted me. I was like, oh, this could happen. Which is like, oh, man, is it really happening? It got in at cinematography as I suspected it would. It got in at costume design. It got in at, was it production design as well? I believe so. What was the fourth nomination where it got in? I can't even recall. Cinematography? No, we said that already. Okay. Production design, costume design. Makeup and hairstyling. Oh, well, yeah. I mean, I haven't. I'm going tomorrow. Makes sense, yeah. When you see the film, you'll understand.

34:36There's something very prominent related to Nosferatu that is very good in makeup and hairstyling. Didn't make it. Didn't make the cut in Best Picture. Did you see that Robert Eggers will be making a new film called Werewolf? And that film is spelled like this. W-E-R-W-U-L-F. And I believe there's an umlau over the U. Cool. It's coming on Christmas Day, 2026. Is it really? Yes. That's a nice tradition that you guys have going. It's really... It did feel a bit like AI, tell me what Robert Eggers will do next. A little bit like, this is deeply unsurprising. I'm sure I'll watch it and like it just because I enjoyed Nosferatu.

35:18too. My favorite nomination of the day is Soundtrack to Akudeta, which is a documentary that I've talked about a couple of times on the show that is incredibly exciting. I told you that all the docs are streaming, but I don't think Soundtrack to Akudeta is streaming yet. Okay. So you lied to me before 7 a.m.? I apologize. Is that the first time that's happened? We have nothing if we don't have trust, Sean. It was just a mistake. That's all that it really was. I was very happy to see that. I don't know, anything else really blow your wig back about these nominations? No, they aren't holy cow levels of nominations because we have discussed everything.

35:58They're pretty good for what I think was a strange year at the movies. And we've got some good stuff. And I would say that Marianne Jean-Baptiste is the only, and Challengers being the real disappointment. and also in Challengers, like kind of an opportunity to bring in a different audience because that was also a real pop moment. That is the last thing which we touched on briefly with the Globes is, you know, not a lot of people have seen most of these movies. It's not the worst thing in the world, but at a time where the Academy is making a lot of decisions, like we just saw the decision to not air, thankfully, the original song performances.

36:39Yes. which we should talk about very briefly that's in an effort I think to just have a more streamlined show and to get the show under a certain amount of running time which I don't personally care about but to also focus the attention on the movies I think as much as possible we also saw in the announcement this morning that there's going to be a lot of efforts towards acknowledging and supporting fire relief and fire relief funds and acknowledging people who've been affected by everything that's been happening in Southern California Janet Yang and Bill Kramer talked about that this morning before Rachel Sennett and Bowen Yang presented the nominations.

37:11So maybe a more stately and quiet kind of Academy Awards? Yes, they are bringing back the Fab Five presentations where five previous winners give kind of like an individual tribute to the nominees before they are announced, which was divisive. Not my favorite thing. I liked it, but I agree with you that it's like the energy comes down. I want to thank everyone who got in touch about the original song decision and thought of us. That was really nice. It was nice. I think it's wise just because you can't live up to I'm Just Ken ever again. Like maybe that should be the last performance of all time.

37:53It showed a tremendous amount of foresight in knowing that it would be impossible to live up to that. I don't think that this is a permanent decision. I just think that this collection of five nominees is not a great one. I wonder if some of the Amelia Perez nominees were not comfortable performing. And if they were not, that might indicate that there was no reason to do it anyway, because those are the only really standout songs that are nominated here. We've got an Elton John song and a Diane Warren song. Excuse me, Elton John, don't say it like that. What do you mean? That song is fine. But it's Elton John.

38:23You know, you don't have to be like, we've got an Elton John song. Like, people don't want another. We need another Elton John. He's not nominated for Mona Lisa's and Mad Hatter's. He's nominated for Never Too Late. Listen, I haven't heard that song, but that's okay. It's still, it's Elton John. Just like put a little bit of respect on it. I'd like to know your take on the documentary Never Too Late, which I watched. Okay. And wish I didn't. I wish I didn't. I'm trying to remember which podcast that you did while I was out where you said that you were going to try to, your critic friends were encouraging you to watch fewer movies and enjoy the movies that you see.

38:55Yeah. And I would just. I watched three films yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. In theaters. Okay. So that was, I'm not really living up to my promises. I watched one film yesterday with a member of your family. Oh, that's great. That was great. That was very, very sweet. I wish I was there, honestly. It was very cute. That's sad. I guess all we imagine is Light Mist across the board, which when it was not submitted by India, it was obvious that it was not going to get into international feature, but there was a push to try to get it into the spot that was ultimately occupied by I'm Still Here. And so it shows you that that thinking, that strategy, I think is very good, generally speaking.

39:29international feature is not exactly what I thought it was going to be I guess we should mention it very briefly particularly because flow got in there yeah and I suspected it would as it started gaining steam just only recently I didn't really think I would not have guessed that a few months ago but it's I'm still here the girl with the needle Amelia Perez the seed of the sacred fig and flow that's another category that feels fairly easy to predict animated feature your favorite category you've seen zero of these movies I have seen Inside Out too oh you did That's right. We did a pod about that.

39:59That was the highest grossing movie of the year. I do know that. Flo, Inside Out 2, Memoir of a Snail, which has just got major Amanda energy. I did predict it. That was in my big Oscar bet. Thanks to Griffin. Wallace and Gromit, Vengeance, Most Foul. I think I also predicted that. And David. I shouldn't leave David Sims out of this. Okay. Please don't. You're also cheating in the big Oscar bet by consulting them. And then the Wild Robot, of course. Wild Robot versus Flo. Is it cheating if you're very open about it? actually real quick hang on you did not predict Memoir of a Snail you did get Wallace and Gromit but you did not choose Memoir of a Snail did I?

40:35no I loved Memoir I loved the title Memoir of a Snail what did I turns out I did I have no recollection at the end of this episode we will go through where we stand with our big Oscar bet which we made in September it is probably laughably in shambles but we will find out very briefly documentary feature film really quickly we'll talk about these films a little bit more as the season goes on but Black Box Diaries, No Other Land, Porcelain War, Soundtrack to a Coup d 'Etat, and Sugarcane. I believe three of those films made their debut, maybe four of them made their debut all the way back at the Sundance Film Festival.

41:09Right. Which starts this weekend. Yes. And is loaded once again with documentaries. I'll be attending virtually. You're actually going to Park City for a couple days. No, I'm going for one night only. 18 hours. Yeah. To see one film. What about two films? No, I'm going to see Opus. Okay. And then I'm coming home. Okay. Well, so you won't be watching any docs. I encourage people that like documentaries and want to follow this race closely to start at Sundance because this has been happening more and more. And also this branch is very idiosyncratic and very serious. This is a very serious collection of five films.

41:42One other thing that jumped out to me, this is like a fairly, forgive this word, but a fairly progressive collection of movies. And I think if you're looking for a rationale for why the Academy is leaning into all of these films, most of them, I don't want to say they're like a rejection of the current American moment, but they feel responsive to it. And if you're wondering why 13 for Amelia Perez, if you're wondering why a movie like Enora is getting recognized, if you're wondering why a movie like A Complete Unknown, which harkens back to a time of social wherewithal. Yes. which has sometimes they are changing as like the emotional centerpiece of the film I think it's fairly maybe so obvious it's not even worth pointing out but this feels when a lot of times you hear like the liberal Hollywood Academy but like this feels like a meaningful representation of it in terms of the kinds of stories that it wants to say it showcases and also a lot of stories that not a lot of people have seen yeah absolutely I mean the documentary branch in particular is always very esoteric and very purposeful about rejecting kind of the mainstream often Netflix sponsored documentaries.

42:59No Netflix documentaries here. Which is unusual. They usually get one in. Daughters was the one many people thought would get in this year and did not get in. I think we both did that for the Oscar Red. So, but I would agree across the board. I mean, you could even lump The Apprentice nominations within that of kind of the Academy trying to respond to the world at large through the films and the performances and the perspectives that it is honoring. 100 % agreed. Any other thoughts? We'll have time to go through some of these other categories over the next five or six weeks. So we didn't finish going through our ranked choice.

43:33You want to do that? Mental exercise. Okay. Well, I just, yeah. So if you've got... You're talking about where we think things stand? Because we're just going to do this again in like a week. Well, we got up at 5.30 in the morning. Like, what else are we doing? Let's talk. Can I tell you something? I accidentally set my alarm for 5, not realizing it was 5.30. Oh, really? So I've actually been up since 5. So I woke up at 5.25 because I have that old person thing now. It's like when you're like going to a, when you have a flight, you wake up every hour. I'm the same way, yeah. It just changes in your 40s.

44:02You don't know, and then it just changes. You're just, you just, you got to pee 19 times a day. You just wake up at 4.47 a.m. for no reason, and you can't go back to bed. No one told me about this. Okay. I mean it's it's so true you know it's just every day it's more and more true I used to sleep till 11.45am routinely I mean me too which is remarkable what's happened in my life it was incredible best picture yeah number 10 is probably I'm still here so yes yeah yeah yeah so you're doing it for everyone I oh you wanna I wanna game out the ballots for you know what I mean so if someone yeah what do you mean yeah Kornacki over here let's go Let's go.

44:47That would be great. I would love to have more Steve in my life, but I did not tune in on election night for obvious reasons. We got to turn this into your big board. We got to get you to be able to move contenders up and down. Okay. I mean, that would be fun. Zero in on the counties. That would actually, that would be great. What is Hancock Park saying about Amelia Perez tonight? And writing a bunch of things. I mean, I think I would be great at that, but I also meant like, let's bring actual Steve. Oh, you want Kornacki to be a part of this? Yeah. Has he ever done Oscars content? I don't think so.

45:16He does some Super Bowl stuff. Because I know he's a football guy. He does, yeah. He's welcome anytime. Steve, come through. Okay. Holler at us. But no. So if you put Amelia Perez as your number one, what's your number two as a voter? Not you. An Academy voter. Yeah. You think it's Anora. I think it's Anora. Okay. It could be wicked. If you're like a musicals person and that's sort of the showmanship of the movie. Okay. You know, and also the lack of self-seriousness at times. I think there's something whimsical about both of those movies. So that's a kind of a sort of story that you like. Is there any world in which it is the brutalist because you're just European?

45:54Yeah, sure. Absolutely. You know? Yeah. And I don't know like... This is a common criticism of the Academy is that it is very Western Europe focused. So that's kind of... And that is sort of a European perspective on America in some ways. Not totally. Yeah, I mean, Mona Fastvold is Scandinavian, and she's the co-writer of the movie. I think you're right that it's probably either a Nora or Wicked. And then the Brutalist is in, like, your top four for Amelia Perez? Yeah, I think so. Because I guess what I'm trying to get at is, like, are they polar? An artistic achievement. Right. However, you put Brutalist at number one.

46:35I don't think you're putting Amelia Perez at two or three. I also think you're putting a Nora. Yeah, I do as well. This is why this is my case for Anora. Okay. This is a lot of number two and three votes. Very few people hate Anora. Right. But could there just be enough? Okay, so. Love it. I can see the sparks coming out of your ears. Let's do the math. Okay, so number one, you're just going to keep Amelia Perez at number one if you're voting again and again. Brutalist stays at number one if it's number one in your ballot. and Nora stays number two and number three I'm just trying to who gets there first?

47:16Is it I don't know if it's a Nora. I think this is the opportunity to talk about the brutalist story from last week because that story which does have identifies it as a front runner because I mean it's an attack it is very clearly a coordinated attack I don't know who it is from we can speculate I'm not going to do that right now it doesn't mean that what's in the story is not true because it obviously is true. Right. And we can talk about the ramifications of that as well. But that story didn't just pop up out of nowhere. No, of course not. And that's something that is a tried and true Oscar tactic over the last 50 years.

47:49Harvey Weinstein was the most successful and demonic practitioner of the tactic of the, I don't know, the campaign smear, I guess, would be the best way to describe it. So there's a story on a website called Red Shark News, which I know you have bookmarked at home, about the usage of artificial intelligence technology on the film The Brutalist. There were two instances in which it was used. The story, I still don't totally understand how it was reported, but one of the people who was interviewed for the film was David Jansko, who was the editor. And in that story, he talked about the ways in which AI technology was used to kind of mold and shape and quote-unquote correct some of the pronunciation in Hungarian that Adrian Brody delivers, I believe, off-screen whilst reading a letter in a two-minute segment of the movie.

48:40Okay. And then the second usage was that an architectural consultant used MidJourney, which is a generative AI technology, to craft architecture designs like blueprints that appear at the end of the film. The production designer, Judy Becker, then took those blueprints and then had an illustrator redraw them and, I guess, add to them and redefine their designs. Right. This is arguably the most hotly contested, argued, debated issue in all of Hollywood right now, in all of, like, the internet, in all of the creative arts. And it's extremely complicated. One, great job on that campaign smear because this made a ton of headlines over a long holiday weekend.

49:27if it's chef's kiss in terms of just old school Oscar elbowing yes they got a lot of attention for this story at least on the internet and I my takeaway is is this is not gonna have a big and meaningful effect on the awards race except maybe in best actor I don't think that this necessarily damages the film's chances as best picture but that's okay I mean sure sure and I understand that the actors branch is a particularly concerned and listen rightfully to a degree group of people when it comes to AI and likeness is very important to them and there is language in the recent SAG deal that disallows this now obviously this work was done in this movie with the agreement of the actors who participated this isn't something that was just done now the speculation is that one of the reasons that it was done is that this is a low budget movie that and this is a cheaper way to accomplish work.

50:29That's obviously something that threatens a lot of people in the industry because it is frankly cheaper to use AI to accomplish stuff like this. In my opinion, the language molding shaping to me is ultimately a non-issue. In the interview, David Jansko, who is Hungarian, talks about the difficulties of nailing the Hungarian language if you are a non-native speaker. And that level of complexity to me is just another use of technology that can be helpful. This is also a technology that is used all the time. It was used in Emilio Perez this year. It was used in The Killer last year. If you read David Fincher or Steven Soderbergh talk about what AI can do and how they feel about it in this respect, it's becoming, if not industry standard, very common.

51:12And in this case is at least being used as support and enhancement as opposed to replacement. Obviously, there's a precedent issue that is alarming anytime you talk about AI, but in this case, it is being used at least for like an assist. And also being done with consent from the actor, which I think is meaningful. That being said, it's much easier to skew this one in a talking point about how that's not Adrian Brody giving the performance that I think, ironically, I guess, hurts him more than the second thing, which I think is more insidious and complicated. I do as well, though. I have to confess, I don't really know enough about the practice of architecture to know how these modeling programs are used.

51:58And whether they were used for many years before in architecture, and now they're just called AI because it's the hip thing to do. That's a great point, and it's kind of the key point, which is that we just use AI to describe everything. Yeah. If you watch movies that have effects technology from Weta, for example, which works on Avatar, works on the Lord of the Rings films, Peter Jackson's company, they've been using machine learning technologies to evolve how VFX works in Hollywood for a long time. Is it exactly the same as ChatGPT or MidJourney? No. Is it using technicians to deploy a lot of those tools?

52:34Yes. Is it taking away from a specific living person right now? Not really, but it has obviated a lot of jobs that previously existed in Hollywood. This is like a story of technology and continuum. It's not one about one guy saying, I'm going to use ChatGPT to write my screenplay. So, yeah, but but on the other hand, this the production designer Judy Becker, who is nominated for The Brutalist and has a very challenging job in realizing buildings that are a central plot point and also metaphor in the film and has to do that on a budget where you can't actually. I mean, spoiler alert, they didn't make the damn building, you know?

53:22And it's not... Well, this was used very specifically for the sketches that we see at the end of the film during the epilogue. Sure, but the case for her Oscar and for her achievement and the work that she did is about conceptualizing and presenting these buildings on film that are true to the script and represent something about the film's ideas and the character. Yes. And what it's trying to communicate on like five different levels, architecturally, metaphorically, you know, historically. So, you know, if like there are some computers involved in conceptualizing what turns out to be for better or for worse, like a central part of the movie, like those are material to what's going on.

54:15I think you have to actually dig deeper into it. One, I wish they hadn't done this. I don't think it's a good thing. I don't want it in my movies. I think it is the slipperiest of slopes and extremely hard to navigate. That being said, this happens in a lot of films. Many times it's happening and you don't know what's happening. If this was not revealed in an interview, we would not know. Steven Soderbergh talked about this last week with The Daily Beast. It's interesting. thing, I don't know that I fully agree with him, but he has been fairly hardline on this. And the examples that he uses is as a writer, that he sees not a significant difference between utilizing a tool like this, a generative tool that is gathering all of the available information in the world, versus you watch movies, and you call ideas from those movies, and you use them, and you process them, and you put your own stamp on them.

55:08What he says is that AI cannot do what I can do because of my life experience. It can regurgitate an agglomeration of what has come before, but it cannot humanize it. You could say that that is him merely protecting a kind of technocrat overlord approach. You could say that as a filmmaker, he is someone who has always favored the ceaseless push towards technology forward decision-making. And if you look at his movies in the last 10 years, they are made with evolving technologies. In this particular case, the thing that we don't know and may never know is what happened between an architect consultant asked Mid Journey for some pictures and then those pictures appeared in the movie.

55:52What did Judy Becker do? What did her illustrators do? How did they evolve or change those things? Sure. I guess we also don't know the architect asked for pictures from Mid Journey in this one instance. Do architects do that all of the time? You know? And it is like, are we living in a world where someone's vision then does get sketched out for a number? You know, is it an assist or is it creation? I don't know. I understand. You can even use the word creation when it's, but you understand what I'm saying. Yeah, I didn't know. Of course. I mean, film is such an iterative medium. It is so, every movie is connected to the movie that came before.

56:34And it is also one that is about the continuing flow of developing technologies from, you know, black and white to color, from silent to sound, from film to digital, from practical to CGI. There are always old roles that are eliminated and new roles that are created, old technologies that are removed. This movie is a really bad movie for this to be the case for because it is a movie that in the marketing, in the way that the filmmakers have talked about it, it is very much meant to be a celebration of the individualist creation. The idea of a person with an idea amassing a team and executing on that thing.

57:17So anybody who says like this movie should be disqualified because of its intentions and its story that it's telling and the way that it got there in this specific case, I understand that. It's a little bit dramatic. I think it's dramatic. I would also say in this debate, if you are an absolutist, if you draw a line in the sand around artificial intelligence technology and say, I won't watch this movie or I will not respect this movie, within 10 years, you will not be able to watch movies. And so that's true. I don't know if I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that is what is going to happen.

57:54And so how do we find a way to understand and accept where an industry is going and then where artists will have to follow the industry in this particular case? And if this is a watershed moment or not, I don't think so. I don't think it is. I mean, I think it's just it's another outside the like metatextual moment for this movie, which is fascinating in terms of the there's the conversation about the movie. And there is this very, very intense, ongoing and filmmaker-fueled conversation going on outside of it. And so I have a little bit, I mean, I don't know if I respect the campaign, but it's just, it is so in response to three months of what has been going on.

58:42And it's brutal and just hits the target exactly. Totally. So, but it does seem specific not to the film, but to the conversation about the film and what it means to be a filmmaker and things that, I don't want to say they've invited it, but it...

59:17very relevant now. And I think that conversation and all of this stuff outside the movie are the reason that it has so many nominations and that it's a front runner. Like they've played their hand really, really well. Like in 10 years or 20 years when talking about the movie, for a number of reasons, whether it's because AI is in everything or because the movie exists outside of this campaign and this moment, it doesn't really matter. I tend to agree with that. But whether or not it like takes away from my enthusiasm for the movie is a lot of something a lot of people were asking me. It's like not really, but I really don't like that they used Mid Journey.

59:55And I wish that that hadn't happened. And it feels like one of those things where like, did Judy Becker even know that the consultant was going to do that? Right. And if she did, why did she decide to accept those drawings? And how much did she change them? And they're such small but perfect vessels for the debate. You know? Yes. It's kind of overwhelming. The speech technology thing, I continue to like, if Timothee Chalamet wins, a part of me will think that it's because some of this factored in. Oh, because they used that? Because actors will say like, you shouldn't do that to your performance.

1:00:27Oh, okay. That is the thing they're saying like, he's not actually speaking Hungarian throughout the entire film. It's not entirely his performance. It has been kind of massaged with this technology. To me, if that happens, that's also evidence that people just aren't like watching the movie. because it's such a small, it's like... It's a tiny part of the film. And he's, you know, say what you will about the movie. Like he's a fucking amazing in that movie. It's incredible. And it's like, I mean, it's like a three plus hour movie. And he's in all of it. Yeah. And that's like two seconds of something of a pronunciation.

1:01:03I don't really get it. I mean, I think you're probably right that in terms of how this affects the voting categories, like that's stickier, but that's kind of dumb. Anything else about that? I don't know. I think I said what I felt like I wanted to say. This won't be the last time AI comes up on the pod, that's for sure. No. I think you did a good job. I think... Oh, can I add one thing? Yeah. I saw a movie, the movie The Night of the Fires. I saw Eno, which I was kind of hoping would be nominated here. It's a documentary about Brian Eno, and it's a generative documentary. It uses an artificial intelligence, but the artificial intelligence that it uses is called only from the filmmaker's previous work.

1:01:48And so when you sit down to watch it, it's pulling from, I think, hundreds of hours of interview and archival footage from the life of Brian Eno. But every time you watch it, it's different. So tomorrow, if you search for the film online, you'll be able to stream it over a 24-hour period. It's playing on a loop. But every time this hour and 40-minute movie plays, a different version of it plays. It's a movie that is using these technologies, but is using them in more contained and constrained ways to more deeply focus on the kind of story it wants to tell over time. Is that confusing? Am I making myself clear?

1:02:23Yeah, I mean, every time anyone has described this film to me, I'm like, I just, my eyes glaze over. But, you know. In other words, there may be one focus on a period of time where Brian Eno worked with David Bowie, and then there might be one sequence where it works on his time working with U2. Sometimes those things may be swapped or maybe neither of them will appear and something else will appear. But it is all a part of this larger story of his life and the way that he sees creativity. It's basically a choose-your-own-adventure for filmmaking, but you don't get to choose. The film chooses.

1:02:54The algorithm that is deployed, the software that is deployed is choosing. This is an interesting example of this technology that is defined by the people who have made work in the past that are making this movie. not the entire history of documentary. I don't want to eliminate the possibility for stories like this by saying, like, throw out the baby with the bathwater on all AI stuff. Like, it is a tool in terms of filmmaking and film editing that can be interesting. It's not good when you just say to a robot, give me this, and then that's all you make because that is what will lead to humans being replaced, like, in full across filmmaking.

1:03:34And what we really care about movies, ultimately, is our human connection to them and the way that stories make us feel as people. So it's just a very nuanced and complicated thing to sort through. And I've been trying to sort through it for months. Yeah. The only other thing I would say about The Brutalist, for me, what's interesting about the second claim, the architectural designs or whatever, is less precedent, though I agree with you, it's really important, and I don't want to watch AI crap for the rest of my life. Even though I, again, I feel like I do all of the time, whether it's in a Marvel movie or, you know, whatever.

1:04:07Princess Sophia bullshit I watched with your daughter, which is just... Sophia is very powerful. Sophia the First you're referring to. Sophia the First, yes. Not made with AI. Made by animators, but okay. Yeah, but it just like, it looks like such computer garbage. This is the problem. Okay. Computer animation is not AI. It looks like AI because we see AI animation and it's still crude. You're just talking about a somewhat crudely animated TV series on Disney+. Yeah, but it just, like, I agree, but then that is what's being fed it, you know? Yeah, that's true. The general, like, denigration of standards.

1:04:44Yeah. Because we're relying more and more on computers or accepting what computers can make. That's true. As a form of art when it is not. For me, but anyway, that's all important. But for me, what's interesting or complicated about the brutalist stuff is, you know, how the AI drawings are used in the film and what that use says about how the film is executed and what it does. And, you know, both where they're used in the film is quite interesting and we'll talk about it. But also, it is a movie about building things and they are working with a small budget and can't build everything. So how do they choose to execute this?

1:05:30And what can they do? What can't they do? What works? What doesn't work? Do you feel like the limitations of it? So I, you know, no one will talk about that, but that to me. We will next week on the pod. We will. Yeah. It's an important part of this. But that's not, that's not the buzziness of the claim. The claim is just about, you know, now all computers are going to do everything for us, which is also bad. It's bad. Bit of an overstatement on what actually happened, but this is Oscar campaigning in 2025. It's just as it was in 1995, as it turns out. That was a sniper hit, though. It's really good.

1:06:09And because it's about computers and it's not anything truly, it's ideological rather than ugly. Yeah, it's beautiful stuff. I mean, it just, you know, it makes you tingle a little. That's your pleasure center. Good for them, you know? Oh, like bring a little drama. Okay. Any closing thoughts? I like the Oscars. Okay, me too. I'm looking forward to them. Conan O 'Brien will be the host. Great. Very exciting. Great choice. I'm very happy about that. Hopefully he will bring some levity to what will at times be a serious ceremony. I also trust him to walk the tonal line of what you need to do here in terms of not being too glib or too, you know, laudatory, but also trying to provide an escape and also trying to provide work for everybody, which is, I think, the main thing here.

1:06:58Agreed. Let's talk about our big Oscar bet very quickly. Bobby Wagner. When was it? It was before Amanda went on leave. September 10th, something like that? Early September. September 16th. 16th. So on the 16th of September, we predicted the nominees and winner in all, was it all categories? No. 12 categories? 1, 2, 3, 4. 14 categories. 14 categories of the 23. We did not predict best documentary short because we are cowards. That was the funniest part. Yeah, you didn't do the shorts and a lot of the below the line technical categories you did not do. The presentation this morning was done by Bowen Yang and Rachel Sennett.

1:07:40And Rachel Sennett, and they, you know, they brought a maybe we didn't go to sleep last night energy to it, but they looked great. And then the only time Rachel Sennett like really broke was after reading the documentary short titles. And she just was like, this very serious, very serious subject matter. And then... She did say Yuck by Charlie XCX, which was funny. Okay, yeah. That was amusing. Rachel Sennett, I love you. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, Bob. So how did we do? You did not very good. But I guess good for the time that you did it. Thank you. Because we did it a lot earlier this year. Yeah.

1:08:16No short lists. Many of these things were not out. No short lists. no like you hadn't even seen the brutalist at this point yet you were heavy on it so like this was kind of really flying blind here okay and actually I just double checked sorry it's only 11 categories so out of a possible 60 points so 5 for each of the ones that only get 5 and then 10 for the best picture nominations out of a possible 60 points it is a 30 to 30 tie wow at the moment between the two of you but out of a possible so you're both batting 500 out of 60 so we got half right that's bad four full months before the nominations were announced almost four and a half months I don't I mean I don't accept a score of 50 % in any in any walk of life you know even a bad average I can't imagine what you were like in high school I mean it was awful it must have been a tough hang you turned out so well I think I it wasn't my fault but you're like I'm competitive but you're like I gotta be right which is a different thing excuse me excuse me excuse you excuse you i'm not the only person at this table um no it's true i didn't care about grades in school though and i i think i sense your grade oh i vividly remember the first test i failed uh really yeah which was in uh it which is a calculus senior year i you know you get to like limits and some other i mean my brain just doesn't work that way you know and i got to that point and i was like okay we will we will no longer be pursuing this um but yeah that sucked I failed that test so 30 out of 60 didn't fail the AP exam though don't worry I didn't take AP math I was not good at math best picture what did we have what were our best picture nominees well so you had 6 out of 10 correct and Amanda you only had 5 out of 10 correct intriguing what were they I did the room next door that was tough that's true you both had Gladiator 2 in that did not get nominated Sean you had Saturday Night yeah I remember that one you both had Blitz you both had Sing Sing we were so young and I think that oh Amanda and the other one you had that didn't get it was Piano Lesson oh yeah you know I felt pretty good about that too coming out of the festivals that movie just got completely blanked today too no Daniel Deadweiler yeah it's too bad now notably by our rules you get an extra two points if you predict the winner as well so the winner is worth three and getting a nomination right is only worth one so out of a potential 11 correct.

1:10:47Sean, you still have 8 winners in contention. Wow. And Amanda, you have 7 winners still in contention. So you could get 14 more points and Sean, you could still get 16 more points. So upside, Sean, you're like slightly ahead but depending on what actually wins. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How different are we in the In the winners. Yeah, in the winners. There's a lot that you overlap on. Like best picture you overlap on, you're different in director. Same on actor, same on actress. Who do we have a supporting actress? You had Sean Baker and Sean had had Brady Corbett. Okay. That's a tight race. You know, same on the wild robot you both predicted for animated feature.

1:11:30So, yeah. So there's a lot of overlap, but there's still some possibility depending on I think it hinges on director mostly. How many did we each get right? Supporting actor as well. This is when you find out that I placed the story. just kidding I didn't do that I believe the author's name was Adrian Pennington and I was like is that an AI name? that sounds made up what what what were our nominees for documentary? documentary I mean these were this is a hard category to predict did we get any? so Sean you got two out of five and Amanda you only got one out of five I can't believe I got one the one that you got was Sugarcane.

1:12:15Okay. Which Sean you also got and then your second one was No Other Land. You both predicted Daughters to win so you're kind of out of contention on that one. Okay. Thanks so much. Tough one. Yeah. Okay well that's interesting. It's so tight. Yeah. So we never. We gotta do that in like November. We can't do it in September. Maybe we should keep maybe you know my friends at the Gold Derby podcast they do one in March. They do one immediately after the Oscars. Oh that's fun. They make their one I don't want to steal their idea, but that's a great idea. Okay. It's just like the flying blind predictions, which is amusing because we think we know what's going on.

1:12:51But like, I would not say that The Apprentice was really on my radar at this time last year. You saw it at Telluride, right? I did, but I wasn't like, this is an Oscar movie. Yeah, well, a lot of things felt different in September. It's very true. Yeah, we could do it again in September. Okay. All right. Cool. It's funny. Great. What are we going to do for the winner this time? I mean, you never really collected on that debt. That's right. If I win again, you have to pose in front of my physical media library and we post it to the big picture social media feed. I mean, that is punishment. And you have to say, it's so beautiful in here.

1:13:28Oh, okay. Yeah. What do you think? Sure. Do I get to pick things to take home? Well, it's more of a lending library than a store, but we can talk about it. Okay, you just got so uncomfortable. You're like, no, give them back to me. Give them back. Collection's getting strong these days. I don't know if I can give anything up. I'm feeling good about it. Are you going to film her like the Joker in the Dark Knight when he has the hostage videos and you're just behind the camera like squealing at her? I'm the guy with the phone stitched into my chest, but it's a Blu-ray of Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid.

1:14:01I'm just going to immediately start rearranging everything. Oh, God. I know. Is that her costume? Is that what you want to do if you win? Just spend two hours rearranging? Color coordinating, throwing out the ugly ones. Not this, not this. Wow, that actually is giving me a panic attack. Okay, this was fun. We will be back next week where we'll talk about this more, but we'll also talk about completely different movies. Don't be worried movies. So let's go now to my conversation with Gintz Zilbaladis.

1:14:42very happy to be here with gins zilbalotis director of flow gins i was reading about your previous film away and the fact that you made it all by yourself is that accurate literally alone just you yeah the credits are very short um it's basically my unofficial film school because i didn't actually go to a film school so i thought i would do that film and uh my goal was to I eventually worked with a team, but I didn't want to do it the traditional way, which is that you start in the studio and kind of a lower job and then gradually grow and get the opportunity to direct. But I just wanted to start and I made that film from the age of 20 until 24.

1:15:30And yeah, so I learned about writing and directing and animation and doing the music and sound. Of course, it's not perfect, but that's the best way to learn is by making these things. And of course, I didn't become an expert in these fields, but I think I learned the basics. And this allowed me later to work with the team and I could understand what everyone was doing. I was wondering specifically about who you felt you needed for a team as you developed flow and what kind of talents you needed to surround yourself with. Because obviously directing, as we usually understand it, is about delegation and entrusting your department heads.

1:16:12It's a managerial role in many ways. But when you made your first film all by yourself, how do you figure out how to do those other parts of directing? Yeah, well, a way I would maybe describe that I was the filmmaker of that film, but I wasn't really a director. There was no one to direct. and so the difference is that when I have an idea I can just make it I don't need to explain it to anyone and that can be good because then you kind of go into a more I don't know cinematic direction like but it can be difficult because like when you have to explain things then they get challenged and tested and you have to actually articulate everything and then everything has a reason And so with Flow, I think that's a big difference that everything is more polished because it's gone through many kind of tests by having me explain it to people hundreds of times.

1:17:11But I also tried to find a balance with Flow as to not to over explain certain things. It was important that there are like some things left for interpretation. But yeah, it's about finding that balance where things are explained, but also open. But yeah, going back to your question, there were certain things that I felt easier, that were easier for me and certain things were harder. Like I really enjoyed designing the camera and the kind of, in this case, it's a virtual camera, but it's still the same principles. You know, just the lens size, the focal length, everything. So I really enjoy kind of blocking these scenes and creating the layout.

1:17:57telling the story through that because especially when there is no dialogue that is like the main way of expressing everything it's not just like decorative it's really like the bulk of the storytelling. I really enjoy doing the music even though away it was my first time doing the music I've never studied it I don't play instruments and I don't read chic music so I started by, I did it on an app on my phone at first, which is kind of like riding a bicycle with your like safety wheels on, which doesn't allow you to make mistakes. So I learned the basics using that. And then I graduated to a professional software, but still it's all electronic music.

1:18:45But I love that because it's so fast compared to animation, you get instant results and it's very impactful. Like, you can create a piece of music and it has more impact on the final film than something that an animator would work on for months which is a bit unfair but it's the way music works that it can kind of really dominate everything and yeah so I didn't feel like I was great at actually animating so on Flow I was very happy to really delegate that and I didn't animate any of the characters and we had a great team and also on Flow I didn't work on the sound We had people much smarter than me doing that.

1:19:25But with the music and the camera, I did want to be involved. With the camera, I did everything, but with music on flow, I ended up collaborating as well with another composer. So I would do the initial sketches. And it's important also for me to do it myself because I write these sketches really early while I'm writing the script. Usually music is the last thing you do, But for me, it starts with the music and then everything is built around that. So I do these sketches and I edit the film using my own music instead of like temp music from other films. And this allows me to, yeah, integrate the music into the film.

1:20:06It's not like overlaid on top. It's really guiding everything. But once I've done that, we brought on another composer, Richard Zaglippe, who is a lot more experienced than me. and he would really like add more layers and depth to everything and make sure it's all cohesive. And then he recorded real instruments and orchestra. And it was, I think, the best of both worlds where I am very hands-on and involved, but it's also very collaborative. And once Rithearts came on board, I wasn't precious about kind of like preserving everything I've done. It was very kind of back and forth process. Given that there's no dialogue in the film and you are looking for collaborators, animators, co-composer, can you describe what the script looks like and what it is that you're sharing with them?

1:20:56Are you pitching the idea to them or are you handing them a screenplay and saying, here's what the story will be? Yeah, with Flow, it was actually the first script that I've actually finished. On Away, I just wrote an outline and basically improvised it visually. And I could do it because it was a micro-budget film and there wasn't as much oversight. But because Flow had a much bigger budget, still much smaller than most US animated films, but still bigger than my micro-budget films. So we needed the script for funding purposes. And so, yeah, I worked with a co-writer who also later became the main producer.

1:21:36And so, yeah, the script is only 35 pages, which is about one page per two minutes usually it's one page per one minute but in this case there is no dialogue so the text is more dense there's less white space and but that the whole story is pretty much there because I think writing is really like figuring out the structure and the motivations of the characters and and the whole kind of relationships they have and the dialogue is just the last thing you add. And so this is pretty much the same as any script, but you don't just add the dialogue at the end. And it's quite similar to the final film, but it's not exactly the same because so when the script was finished, only the financiers would read it and the producers, but no one in the crew read the script.

1:22:31Instead, after finishing the script, I start making the animatic, which is like the, or it could be called previous, It's like the rough edit of the film. And instead of creating storyboards, which is a typical way of making animated films where you draw everything, I would just do this in 3D. I create a 3D set and I can explore it with a virtual camera. It's like location scouting in live action where a director comes on set and discovers ideas. So it's very improvisational and spontaneous and there are many happy accidents. And so I create these shots in 3D. And a reason for that is because I need to, I move the camera a lot and I have these very long shots, some of which go for almost five minutes.

1:23:22So you can draw that, you have to do it in 3D. So I do design this whole film and edit it with the music. And this is what we show to everyone on the crew because I think it conveys the emotion a lot better than the script does. The script is really, you get all the beats, the action, but you don't really sense the more kind of intense emotion, which you can't really describe with words. It's more kind of, the reason for making this film is because I need to kind of express these feelings I have, but I can't really do it any other way besides making this film. Like, this is my way of kind of expressing some more deeper things.

1:24:06It's very therapeutic as well. I don't know exactly what I'm expressing at first, but I find it and discover it on the way. And so, yeah, I think with the music and the lights and the motion, we can express these things that the script couldn't. Can you tell me a little bit about where the idea came from then? obviously you had something calling to you to express yourself and here you also have a cat i believe i don't know if the cat was the the pure inspiration for it but like where did it come from to make a story like this um well i've had two cats growing up uh currently i don't have a cat but yeah when i was in high school i had two cats and uh i made a film back then a short film about a cat who's afraid of water so it's the same concept but but it's quite different in terms of presentation but yeah so i made a bunch of more short films and then i made my first feature and i had this opportunity uh to work with a team for the first time and i wanted to tell a story about this very experience of how i'm learning how to collaborate and how to trust others which i'd never done and i thought the cats would be a great protagonist for such a story because they're very independent and that could be its start of its character art so i revisit that concept i started when i was 15.

1:25:36so i've been with the story for half of my life now and i added a bunch of more characters i also added a dog which is inspired by two dogs i had and these other animals so So in the short, it was really about the fear of water. But in Flow, the feature version, I'm more interested in the cat's fear of others. It's really all about the relationships they have. And everything is really built around that. And it was also important that these characters, all of them are kind of relatable. Or at least we understand them. So none of these main characters at least are good or bad. They're both good and bad, each of them.

1:26:20which was important that each of them have their own kind of journeys and character arcs, which is quite complicated to do without dialogue and in this confined space. And so there are a lot of limitations in terms of storytelling that actually, yeah, it's challenging, but also that can be good because in animation, you have endless opportunities. You can do whatever you want. So it can be great to have some limitations. It gets you going at least. The environment is interesting to me too. It's hard to place where the story is taking place, when it's taking place. Is it even taking place on Earth?

1:26:56There's certainly a post-apocalyptic kind of feel to what's transpiring. Why did you decide to make those choices and also not necessarily explicate all of those things at the same time? Yeah, I think of this place as like an alternative universe. So we did study real places and took references to make it feel grounded. But we made our own kind of architectural styles. And my goal was for it to feel kind of timeless. There are no modern day buildings. There are no cell phones. So it could be said at any time. And hopefully this will make it relevant in many years as well. It will stay fresh. but yeah we looked at places in Southeast Asia, in Central America, also in Europe and Tibet and Nepal and combined them and made something new but because there's no dialogue this environment is really telling the story it's not just decoration so the great thing about designing everything ourselves we can do what is necessary for the story we're not constrained by existing places and and and yeah so it's all there to kind of express what the cat is feeling and um and yeah it's i wanted it to feel like an adventure the whole story so i wanted it to feel like we've never seen these places just as the cat hasn't seen them uh so that was important that everything is kind of seen from the cat's point of view i've read that animating water sequences is incredibly complicated and that's an essential part of the story that you're telling.

1:28:39Can you just talk about your experience trying to accomplish that? Yeah, in any kind of film, whether it's animated or not, they tell you to avoid water because it's so hard to control. And also, well, maybe in this case, it's not as big as a problem, but they also say you should avoid using animals. That's right. And children too, I think that's the third one. So you didn't have to worry about children in this one. Yeah, but yeah, animals are also tricky. But water is complicated because there's no one way of doing water. There's a river, there's a lake, there's a storm, there's a puddle, and each of them require completely different types of tools and systems that need to be developed.

1:29:24And usually in bigger VFX heavy films or animated films, there are dozens of people like their whole department of doing all that we had just two people doing all the water effects and despite like most of the film being set in water and yeah the complicated thing is that you need to understand the physics the technical part of it which i really don't understand myself but these people also need to have a very good eye and ability to tell stories because water in this film is also helps us to understand what the cat is feeling it's like a metaphor for its feeling so when the cat is afraid the water is very scary and aggressive and then as the cat learns to trust others the water calms down but yeah I wanted you to be inside this water so the camera goes in and out of the water within a single shot and that was important that it feels kind of tangible you can feel its wetness and you feel very immersed in this world.

1:30:27It's incredibly effective and fascinating because it feels somehow both realistic and otherworldly. So the way that you've pulled that off is amazing. I can't believe how successful this film has been. You know, it's done really well at the box office. You know, I wish you the best with the Academy Award nominations tomorrow. are you stunned by the way that the film has been received? Are you surprised? How are you feeling about the way that this relatively micro-budgeted animated film with a small crew has found its way into the world? Yeah, I am stunned. And it is crazy. It's quite unprecedented.

1:31:08So, well, we were hoping to have a festival release. We were hoping to get some distribution. But yeah, this is a challenging kind of pitch because it's hard to compare it to something. And you're always asked to compare it to something. And because it works both for kids and adults, so people see it as neither in this case when you're pitching it. I think it actually does work for kids and adults. So that's, I think, part of the appeal that kind of helped it break out of that festival circuit kind of art house films and that there are families coming to it. But yeah, in terms of the whole visual style and everything, it's unlike most animated films.

1:31:56I think that's also what helped it to be noticed because it feels like we shot it in this very kind of almost documentary way, but also with these long takes, which is quite unexpected. And yeah, I think we just started in Cannes Film Festival, which was also a huge deal for us because they almost never select animation in competition. and then everyone really took a notice and we got like distribution because we only got distribution after Cannes and then all these festivals. So I've been traveling pretty much since Cannes in May for seven months now, which has been pretty exciting but also very exhausting.

1:32:41But it's a very good problem to have. And yeah, also in terms of Latvian films, This has been incredibly successful. And because, yeah, like here we're the number two film of all time in the Latvian box office and on our way to being number one very soon, which is like we also don't typically watch these kind of independent animated films. So it really came as a surprise to us as well. But I think this has shown that there is an appetite for different types of animated films. and now that there are these free tools that we used, so we made it with Blender, which is a free open source software, we can have these smaller studios taking bigger swings and trying out new things.

1:33:31And I'm sure we're going to see more of these films because this has shown it can be successful. So I'm sure that people will follow this path And hopefully it's not like the same type of like that don't copy it, like just being stories about cats. Like this means all kinds of independent films. You don't have to like very directly copy this. But yeah. And also like, yeah, it's a very young team. Like we were all very new to this. I think the lack of experience helped us kind of discover some new ways of dealing with things and finding new solutions. And so, yeah, that's, I think, part of it. It's an amazing accomplishment and the film is beautiful.

1:34:16So congratulations. Gintz, we do end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen. Seems like you're a cinephile. Have you seen anything great lately? Yeah, well, this is kind of sad, but I've been rewatching some David Lynch films. And so, yeah, I watched Lost Highway, which I actually hadn't seen before. What did you think of it? I thought it was really amazing. Like, it's, I don't know, it's, I was, there's this, I don't know, it's really hard to describe, but that, like, I love when I've been also listening to David Lynch interviews now and he's been, like, reluctant explaining what his films are about.

1:35:04And I've been very inspired by this approach as well. That's why I'm also very, I hope the film speaks for itself in my case. And I think in his case as well, you shouldn't really try to describe it. You should really embrace the ambiguity. And it's just an experience that I really loved. And it's very kind of dark, but also naive in some ways at the same time, which makes the darkness feel more dark and the lightness feel more light, which feels very relevant I guess nowadays as well with all of these extreme emotions and yeah so I loved The Lost Highway Beautifully put Gintz thanks so much for doing this good luck with the film going forward Thank you

1:35:57Thanks to Gintz Zilbaladis thanks to Jack Sanders thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode thanks to Amanda Next week, a brief respite from the Oscar race and an acknowledgement of dumpuary. So here's what's on the list, Amanda, for dumpuary. I think some of these are unfair. Well, I understand that it's not necessarily that they're bad. It's just that the studios have put them in January for a lack of confidence. We are not dumping on them. They have been dumped into January. Right. And we are reflecting on their dump status. Okay. So we're going to talk about Better Man.

1:36:32We're going to talk about One of Them Days. We're going to talk about Flight Risk, Wolfman. Yeah. Back in Action. Yes. And Presence, Steven Soderbergh's new film. And Soderbergh will be on the show. Right. And I did ask him a question in your honor. I know. And he did answer it. I'm really excited. Did you cite me when you asked it? I did. Okay. He also said your name out loud. Okay. Oh, all right. Well, I did just like get a little palpitation right now. Like this is why I don't do the interviews. And I'm like a little stressed out now, but I'm excited for it. Okay. Well, tune in next week. We'll see you then.