2026 Best Picture Power Rankings, and the Best Movies at TIFF. Plus: Zach Cregger on ‘Resident Evil’!

20:42Sean Fennessey:I give you those results. You say what? Well, I say that it's very interesting that we had a foreign language film win the award but the International Prize, an English language film. I mean, I don't know how much I believe any of these results. You know, it always seems like, you know, some convenient movies win. I mean, I guess it's on the level. It's two straight years that, you know, the same documentarian has won an award. I mean, what these awards mean is very hard to say. I think TIFF would really like them to mean something. I think that they're, you know, happy for those halcyon days of three billboards and Green Book and The Shape of Water where these things were hugely predictive of the Academy Awards.

21:24I don't think that either Bolanegro or Elsinore is likely to win best picture, but, you know. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Leave that to me, sir, please.

21:32Sean Fennessey:This is, this is. Can I ask you an important People's Choice Award question, Adam? Please, yeah. Do you, man of the people, vote for the People's Choice Award? I do not vote for the People's Choice Award, not because I'm not a person and because it's not my choice. I just, I just, I just plum forget. Okay. You know, every, every time, every time I'm on the way out of the theater, I just remember to do literally anything else. Okay. And is that what it is, is that you get a ballot on the way out? It used to be. Now I believe you just text or log in, which is why movies that I think people are not actually physically at are able to.

22:06And, you know, for a festival that takes place in my city and that I attend for a long time for 10 straight days, I don't pay a lot of attention to how that award works. Okay.

22:15Sean Fennessey:Who do you text? Like Jim Tiff? Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah, Jim, Jim, Jim. What you do is you just text the festival and say, this should win. And they go... Explain some past winners then. Yeah. Explain some past winners and they go, okay. Okay. Well, okay, so what did you like? What really jumped out to you? And what observations do you have from this season in Toronto? Well, I mean, I think that I started the piece I wrote for Ringer by saying this was a year of audiences talking back to the films, sometimes quite oddly and inappropriately. You mentioned Lee Chang-dong's Possible Love, which is a good film based on the audience reaction here.

22:56It's like a slapstick comedy. People were like whooping and hollering and cheering. I mean, this isn't like secondhand. I was at, yeah, people were sort of doing like, you know, applause breaks in the middle of that film. It made more sense for the debut.

23:08Sean Fennessey:Deeply literate two hour and 40 minute family drama. Yeah, there were also people cheering and clapping during a part of Josephine, which is not me doing a bit. It was very, this was a movie I texted Sean before I went in and I'm like, look, I'm quite tired. I've heard this movie is grueling and upsetting. Am I going to get something out of this today when I'm tired? He's like, you should probably see it. I'm glad I did. But there were passages in the film where people were clapping during that. So it's strange. I don't know if it's a desire to be part of an event or if it's just a really enthusiastic cohort of people.

23:40Maybe they're trying to enhance the quality of the movies at this festival by engaging with them. But there was a lot of talkback. There was a lot of clapback. There was some heckling. Danny Boyle got heckled. I was at that screening too. Oh, I read of this, yeah. Where someone told him, knock that shit off, basically, pertaining to generative AI. Right. And my feeling about that, because I have no thoughts on Inc. the movie whatsoever, I think Boyle needs to go back to the Bone Temple. Those movies are very good. But I also thought that he is such a nice guy. He's so likable and charming. It's hard to dislike Danny Boyle that he was actually kind of a good canary in this coal mine.

24:19where it's like if people feel comfortable yelling at Danny Boyle on stage in Toronto to knock that shit off, it's probably a sign people are not dying to see these little 30 seconds of conspicuous but pointless AI. I mean, I don't have much to say about ink. I don't have much to say about ink, but I will say the AI that is in it is completely pointless. It makes no difference to the film, so why do it? We effectively have the same takeaway. Immediately recognizable and also unnecessary. Just, yeah, why? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that was sort of one of the things was that there was a lot of talking to the screen and back at the screen.

24:53I think the festival was aiming for a higher participation rate in a different way. As you guys surely read, this was the inauguration of the market, which, you know, was now, you know, you guys visited Toronto. You have the geography memorized. You know, it's still basically all taking place at the light box. within about a block and a half over in the big Metro Toronto Convention Centre, there was a market set up on two floors, which was often kind of cavernous and hollow and empty. But I also wasn't spending peak hours there. It's a very nice free coffee. I ran into a pair of independent horror filmmakers.

25:26I did not get their name, but they were pitching me on their project. And I said, sounds great. I wish them well. You should just set up a booth for that, you know, like in the market next year or just on the quarter in Toronto. But not do anything. Just receive ideas. Yeah, and say, I wish you well. I wish everybody, and everybody wishes me well, largely because of this podcast. People still keep going like, you're tall guys on the American podcast. People always asking how Sean and Amanda are. That's real, by the way. People are always curious. Cheers to Toronto. Hi, everybody. We love them.

25:58We're sorry we couldn't be there this year. Yeah, they think you guys are very famous. But the market did stretch. Yeah. The market did stretch certain things on the ground a little thin, to be honest. I mean, there were only one press screening per film, and that's not like whinging and complaining. I mean, if there's one press screening, you show up on time or you don't. But it meant that lines were longer. I know that there was some slowness sometimes with people who had showed up, delegates, just kind of getting their badges. I mean, I bear no ill will to the market. I'm not an industry person.

26:29I did host an industry panel, and that was well attended. I have friends who are filmmakers and producers and distributors and sales agents. And I think that they had, you know, fun navigating the back rooms of the Metro Toronto Convention Center. But the festivals felt spread a little thin. And maybe that's a self-fulfilling feeling. Like when you've heard all summer this is going to be the case, maybe it just kind of feels like that. But it was not the best time I've had at TIFF, which is not meant as a put down of the festival, but just an honest response.

27:00Sean Fennessey:It does seem logical that Toronto would have a market, considering the way that the markets work at other festivals around the world. But getting something like that off the ground is always challenging. What about the movies? What did you really respond to? Well, I think I've said it on this pod before, and it's no less true for saying it over and over, which is you can have a very good time at TIFF if you pick and guess right. And if you don't, or if you're running a particular beat, or if you're a glutton for punishment, you'll see bad movies. It's just a law of averages. There's like 280 of them.

27:30You know, so I, by and large, saw stuff that I thought was pretty good, but that's because I was trying to for work purposes and for personal purposes. I wasn't, you know, wandering into I wasn't wandering into random stuff. I avoided the films that I thought I was going to, you know, dislike intensely. But there's a balance, too. You have to see partially because I'm writing about them for Ringer or for other publications, you know, films like Elsinore or I Play Rocky or Ink. I mean, these are things that I would probably not choose to prioritize. both also because not because they're bad necessarily but because they're going to be readily available and widely distributed um you know as i wrote in the the piece i filed for ringer the best thing i saw i would say for me by a mile was every time by sandra walner which is going to be at the new york film festival and is some kind of strange elusive bizarre movie i mean most of the people i spoke to liked it they liked it without being necessarily sure that they had gotten it.

28:25That's not code for it's obscure or incoherent. It's incredibly lucid and brilliantly made. It's just mysterious. And that's kind of a rare thing. A lot of the times movies like this are mysterious, but they're kind of nudging you in the ribs saying, do you get it? Or giving you a very easy way to interpret it. It's a film about a family in Berlin, a mother and two daughters. One is a teenager, one is sort of eight or nine. Something very bad happens involving the older daughter. I mean, it's not a spoiler. Almost any review would say that the older daughter dies in an accident. The film skips what you'd think the movie would be about, which is the immediate grief kind of picks up after the grief has been subsumed into daily life and traces of the daughter remain.

29:07And I think they're the traces we're used to of people remaining like her cell phone and her Minecraft world and photos of her and memories of her. And then without spoiling the movie, reality seems to mutate around these memories and uh at least on two separate occasions my heart just stopped in terms of how surprising this film is a lot of people are comparing it to after sun because it's the same cinematographer and because there is a kind of vacation at a resort that figures into the plot i am happy with comparisons to after sun because i like that movie very much but it's much different. You know, After Sun is all very lucid and organized and analytical and this movie is just very mysterious and strange and perverse.

29:50You know, I think this is a really great filmmaker. So that's the thing I like the most by far. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing that.

29:56Sean Fennessey:We both missed that in Cannes. It was on my list. I had a ticket because the resort you mentioned was in Tenerife which is of course the only, you know, bold name that I read in the entire description. But then things changed, but then it won in certain regard. It won in certain regard, yes. Yeah. And I think it's going to be Germany's Oscar submission. It is, yes. And I think that when people see it, they'll be confused and excited by it as I was. I think it's amazing, and I can't wait to see it again. Okay. What else did you enjoy? I liked Possible Love, which you guys have or haven't seen. We have.

30:35We both have seen. Yeah. We've both seen. I thought that this was an example where I didn't think he was getting the effect he usually gets. And then by the end, he kind of earned them or engineered them. Maybe I can't tell if it's earning or engineering it. You know, if you've talked about it on the pod already, you know, maybe people have some sense of the plot. But it's very similar to Burning in that it's a kind of class. I think it's much closer to Burning, actually, than it is to Parasite. People just compare movies to Parasite because it's a subtitled movie people have seen, right? You know, it's like that tweet about the boss baby.

31:06Like this movie is giving me boss baby vibes. You know, it's not, it's not, it's not really like Parasite. It's, it's, it's more like Burning where there's this disparity between these two family, these two households, these two characters. And it's hard to tell if it's aspiration or resentment that's kind of, you know, burbling up between them. But obviously he's dealing in this movie, Lee Chang Dong, a bit with his own practice. He has a character who's a filmmaker, a movie who's making a movie about those class divisions and that inequality. and um you know i i thought it was very very strong in the second half i just found myself wondering if the second half was just better than the first or if that's just how he works he builds very skillfully and then all of a sudden you're having this kind of stuff seemingly hit out of nowhere but it wasn't as pressurized and amazing as burning was all the way through for me the first time i watched both movies yeah i don't want to spoil our conversation about that movie too

32:03Sean Fennessey:much because we'll probably spend a good amount of time on it because I think it's going to be in the orbit for a while and its relationship to his other movies and even just working with actors that he's worked with before on other movies and using them like weaponizing them in a way like what we know about them or what we think about them especially as a western audience where like maybe have not seen some of these actors in very many movies so to bring someone back and kind of what that means but um I thought it was pretty powerful I always feel like he there's a quality to his work that is like maybe this should have just been a novel and you know he is a novelist and like he, he just writes very literarily for cinema.

32:37Sean Fennessey:And there were a couple of moments in burning where he really transcends that where I like, he completely snapped my brain in half. Yeah. This movie never didn't quite get there in those, in terms of that, like feeling of the cinematic language living up to, I think a lot of the ideas that he was interested in, but I did, I did like it a lot. I mean, I felt the same way you did Adam where I, like I did feel at a remove in the, in the first half and it does feel also that that's intentional and that it is working at a very slow place to get you to the the second half and really the third act revelations um but some of the choices made in the first half and even some of that commentary on filmmaking you know like i still work for me more intellectually than emotionally which again maybe is the point is the and I'm still trying to figure out when people were laughing because that's real I agree that's one thing I will tell you I did not laugh in that film not even at the Laura Piano joke no no there was there was there was laughing and Chuck Quig and there were even a couple little smattered clap some smattered clapping it was very weird really really weird I wouldn't I wouldn't bring it up if it wasn't weird well this is I think the part of maybe an interesting future episode that we can explore about kind of like what the audience's relationship is to movies now there's all this talk of rep screenings is kind of drawing a lot of inappropriate laughter at times when you see something from an older film that doesn't feel like it totally fits the contemporary sensibility.

34:02Sean Fennessey:And there's something about this too where, you know, that's a movie really, it's not about class warfare, but it's about the sort of like extremely nuanced differences in people's lives and how someone who feels very far below them class-wise is obviously not so far from them in terms of their own humanity. And so, like, there's this desire to, like, cheer for something that represents, like, social power, which is just corny to me. Like, I just feel like getting really behind something like that in the middle of a movie just feels odd, but... Well, that was where the screening of Josephine was so bizarre.

34:37This isn't a movie that I want to spoil, and it's a movie that, in some ways, I'd love to have a longer conversation about later, because I'm really mixed on how I feel about this film, the Beth Derugio film about a married couple, Channing Tatum and Gemma Chan, whose daughter goes through something terrible and then is kind of haunted by it. I found the literal haunting aspect to be a mixed bag for me. But the parts that people were clapping at, believe me, it wasn't the sort of like child haunted by trauma stuff. It's like when the movie gets into the courtroom and when they feel like something has been said that is defiant for them or a kind of truth to power has been spoken, even if it's by a child.

35:13And people were kind of clapping. and I remember thinking at the time, I mean, the filmmaker's in the building. In some ways, it's an impressive movie. She's really smart. I'm pulling for her in the movie a little bit. Like, how does she feel about this? Because this is not a movie with applause breaks tonally built in, you know? It's meant to be.

35:29Sean Fennessey:Yeah, we shouldn't say too much about the movie because the experience of it is kind of critical, I think, for going into it. But I had the same reaction as you out of Sundance. It absolutely affected me. It absolutely hit me very hard while watching it. And there were also moments where I felt this deep level of manipulation that kind of usually annoys me when I'm watching a movie. And I feel like somebody's got their hand on my shoulder. And so I generally recommend it. And I think people should seek it out too. And you should definitely come back so we can talk about it on the show. Because it is a very fertile ground for discussion of what a movie should be trying to accomplish.

36:09Sean Fennessey:And I really admire that she's like, fuck it. I'm going for it in her movies. Her last movie is the same thing. It's not as effective as this movie, but I appreciate that there's someone who is willing to really like break convention to get you to feel something. Yeah, and it's interesting because one, maybe not just at this festival, but in general is that language of horror is starting to infiltrate all kinds of other films. And in some ways I appreciated it because actual horror on the ground at TIFF was kind of hard to find. I didn't see some of the Midnight Madness films. I thought that the Midnight Madness selection It didn't look like it had a lot of straight up scary stuff, but that is why I want to speak up a little bit about River, which I think is quite a fun slasher film.

36:50I liked it more in retrospect. When I was watching it, I was a little nonplussed, but in retrospect and thinking about how well made it is, I'm definitely pro-River. Neither of you guys have seen that one yet. No, I'm very excited.

37:01Sean Fennessey:This was the big acquisition out of the festival, right? Yeah. Yeah, Josh, I don't want to get his name wrong. Josh Giuliano or Giuliano's film. Sorry if I got that wrong, Josh. she directed a good movie. Yeah, it was bought for, I think, eight million bucks by Blumhouse and Universal. I think IFC had it and then they sold it off. I mean, one other big thing at this festival was it was the Obsession victory lap of all time, you know, because I think Tiff feels an ownership of that movie. When there's a certain movie, you know, like Moonlight or Green Book or Obsession, if they can sort of lay any ownership to it, they will remind you of that ad nauseum.

37:36So they brought Curry Barker back. They brought Indian Everett. He was getting some fits on. Johnson. Curry. Yeah. It's coming to some money. Yeah. And talking about that idea of starting their journey, you know, what a long, strange trip it's been one year later. Right. You know, I don't know if River is going to have the same discourse monster effect because it's not getting its hands in the same kind of can of worms. But I must say, Jessica Roth and Jane Levy in the same movie, that's ingenious. They're both great. Like, they're great, both of them, in this kind of film. I loved watching them act together.

38:11The killers are suitably freaky. Always good at a Q &A when there is a 6 '9 professional basketball player on stage. Bring back absurdly tall slasher movie killers. I think that was good. And it's just very evocatively staged and shot and made. I wouldn't go too hyperbolic about it. It's not great. But it shouldn't be undervalued either. it's a good it's it's for what it is it's a very good time and it was the only kind of genre film

38:42Sean Fennessey:or horror movie i saw that i like oh interesting yeah i mean who who likes a down and dirty gnarly yeah genre movie more than me i'm because i'm really that was that's the one movie this entire fall film festival season i was like fuck i wish i saw that and i you know yeah usually i feel that four or five times and this was the one movie where and i i felt this even given that Obsession Aftermath. I felt that last year when Obsession premiered and people that I know who really love this stuff were like, dude, this is the one. You're going to love this. There is still something fun about that when you wander into a room and you're like, I heard this could be cool and then a movie pops up and you're like, well, that was genuinely good.

39:19Sean Fennessey:That was genuinely exciting and fun to watch somebody new arrive. So that's cool. What else? It seems like maybe you were not blown away by the lineup this year. Yeah, you want to take any shots on the way out? Yeah. On the way out? We just got here. I mean, not blown away. I mean, look, some of these are movies I'm going to write about at greater length, you know, for Ringer or elsewhere. I'm sure there'll be cause later on to talk about I Play Rocky, which is an interesting comparison to Elsinore, right? Where really you're sort of just judging these two lead performances. I think Stallone is a more familiar person to impersonate maybe than Ian Charlson.

39:54But they're both, I'm sort of trying to say this as fairly as possible. They're both kind of about the craft of acting and they're sort of both about what actors are kind of pulling out of them, you know, pulling out of themselves. It's interesting that it's the Peter Farrelly movie that is less cut to ribbons directorially than the other one. I mean, Andrew Scott might be giving a great performance in Elsinore, but it is hard to tell because at a certain point, about an hour and a half in, the director just doesn't trust anything. He doesn't trust the script, doesn't trust the audience. He just, I did not like the way that movie was directed in the home stretch.

40:28Andrew Scott's a great actor, but you can't give a great sustained performance when you're cut up like that. And as for I Play Rocky, you know, I think it's still under NDA, but, you know, I read a book that's also tied to the making of Rocky that's not out yet. And watching the movie made me think of how funny the book was. book book book book book much funnier incidents in reality than the kind of fake ones that the movie puts together but you know good good line readings by tracy let's playing just like the just just playing the studio yeah sure yeah you know like the studio the studio guy who gets everything wrong um god what else did i what did i even see um i saw like 40 movies it's it's not They're not great if they're not jumping to mind.

41:15Sean Fennessey:So you are one of the lone dissenters on Jordan Firstman's Club Kid. So I think it's worth, Amanda and I are very in the bag for this movie. We loved it. Super. And honestly, Adam, when I saw your one word review on Letterboxd, I thought, okay, Club Kid, People's Choice Award, here it comes. Oh, well, you know what? Just before we talk about Club Kid, another bit of applause was at the press screening of the debut. Okay. It was a press screening. where I remember before the press screening, reading, people clapped for this movie at Telluride and then the Toronto audience did the same thing. It was like a telegraph to them.

41:51Sean Fennessey:Yeah. It was telegraph. Also not a movie I like very much. It's going to be a good one for you. It's going to be a real test. I have no... I have some idea of what's waiting for me and we'll see. But for Club Kid, I mean, look, it's an interesting discussion about the difference between a movie being effective and a movie being good. Is this movie effective? Very hard to argue that it is not. I was surrounded by people sniffling and crying at the screening. I myself was just sick, but not crying. I just felt like shit while watching it. So there's that. I think it's interesting when a movie is all about the character's flaws and growth and self-reckoning when they really kind of do nothing wrong.

42:37And the movie constantly reminds you that they haven't really done anything wrong. that the things that happen aren't really their fault, not really their problem. I love movies about 10-year-olds who are just perfect and have none of the actual rough edges or difficult edges that kids have.

42:52Sean Fennessey:I think you're being extremely unfair in both criticisms, honestly. I really do. No, I'm not. Because even the things they try and introduce, like the anger issues the kid has, go nowhere. He is sort of absolved by the machinery of the plot, the main character played by the filmmaker, who, of course, is writing, directing, and starring in this kind of very self-flattering project. Not since Cha-Cha Real Smooth, in my opinion, has there been a movie that operates in that way. I feel like it's a showcase movie. It's designed to show this guy as a talented writer, as a talented director, as a talented actor.

43:31He is all of those things, but it's in the sacrifice of the real kind of complexity that this movie might be about. I don't really think the complications and contradictions of that scene are well developed. I don't think the contradictions of like maybe starting to date your kid's therapist, no matter how hot he is, and he is exceptionally hot, are all that well. They have incredible chemistry, though. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes you just got to do it. No, no, I'm not. It's like it's Diego Calvin. What do you want? No, I'm not. I'm not against that at all. I'm against the fact that it's introduced as a kind of ethical impasse in the movie.

44:08It's like it doesn't matter. And the kids' anger management issues don't really matter. And even, I mean, we don't want to spoil the whole movie, but even the outcome and resolution of the film, it's all kind of easy. And I think that that's the reason I do not include you guys in this. You are my friends and, you know, I love you and all that. And you forgive us our bad taste all of the time. We're just your sentimental American. No, I think that the movie is very pleasing and I think people are being pleased. I think people are being pleased by it. I found it to be pretty shallow and kind of self-flattering and also a weird view of what it means to kind of like take responsibility in life as if the two lifestyles are incompatible, which I think if you followed that logic a little too far is kind of a weirdly reactionary, conservative underpinning for a movie like this to have, as if what we see in the first half of the movie is something that just a priori has to be escaped before you can take on these other responsibilities, which I don't know is actually true.

45:09Sean Fennessey:You know, you always have a criticism where, like, I'm like, what are you talking about? That's a real, like, I don't agree with that at all. I don't think, I think you can read it that way, but, and we can talk about it more when the movie comes so that we don't spoil it for people, but to me, it's more about the decisions within the scene, not the scene. This is not a rejection of the scene. It's a rejection of the way that the person lived inside of the scene. And that person does do things in the movie, It's not my job to defend the movie, but this totally worked for me because it's a person who could have been living a little bit differently while doing the work that he does.

45:42Sean Fennessey:And because of the actions that he takes early in his life and later in his life, the poor judgment that he displays leads to the outcome of the movie. Now, stuff about the kid, that's a fair note. I guess so. I don't disagree with you that it is very traditional, both in the structure of the film and also ultimately its views on kids and what a happy ending is and what resolution for all of the people are. It is not provocative in that way, though it is provocative in that we still don't know what all of the club drugs are. We, Sean, and Amit, maybe that's the other thing. Maybe you're just like, I'm not even going to try to use the lingo.

46:23My life is clearly all club drugs. Okay. All the time. No, what I was going to say is that I'll make a value-neutral observation, too, which is that it's interesting to see how quickly the DNA of not just the Safdies but Sean Baker now becomes a mood board. And that's not a put-down because often I like those filmmakers and it's smart to take some of that stuff. It's the same producer. Same producer as Inora. Yeah, same producer as Inora, which you can feel in that opening sequence. You can feel that opening sequence for sure. There's some very good performances in it kind of around the edges.

46:57there's a good performance at the center of it. I mean, like I said, it's a showcase for talent. Yeah. I just found it to be a little self-regarding and a little easy. And I didn't think that what you'd say it's about the character's decisions. I don't think he made nearly enough kind of bad ones. There's an out with all of them where the movie is sort of like, oh, but he didn't mean it. But that's just bad luck. Yeah, yeah. And it's a little annoying to me, for me.

47:22Sean Fennessey:This, in retrospect, the most predictable thing of all time is Adam not responding to this movie. I'm interested that it did not place in the top three in the People's Choice voting at Toronto. Because it really seemed, based on the other reactions, our experience in Cannes, our experience of this film, and then you as a reverse bellwether, Adam, that it would really... I think a little bit of it... Here's my general, I don't know if it's skepticism around how this award operates, But you've got two premieres and you've got one movie that I would say is being considered kind of undeniable right now.

47:59Sean Fennessey:That played huge at Cannes. That played huge at Telluride. That played huge at Toronto. And so that trio is sort of immovable in a way. And putting another Cannes title there maybe lessens the impact of the award. And so, you know, if Club Kid or the debut were in fourth place, I wouldn't be surprised. But we don't know. Okay. Is there anything else you want to cite that you thought was worthwhile before we wrap? Anything else that I want to cite? I mean, I think that a lot of the movies that I think people are very excited about this fall are elsewhere. And that would sort of mean less or be less of an observation if there weren't so many other movies at TIFF.

48:39I mean, we haven't really had a discussion about it as a showcase of Canadian films because I know that that's not a leading issue. We haven't talked about how good the wavelength section is, which is experimental and avant-garde films, because it's always good, because those programmers always bring it, whether it's films that are being brought from Berlin and canned, like Nico Pareto's wonderful Everything Else is Noise, or John Torres' The Remotes, which is kind of like vaporwave Filipino Cronenberg is a really good movie. There are very good movies to see at TIFF, but as an idea of what is shaping the fall, I can't speak for you guys, or I can't speak for listeners of this podcast.

49:14It's not TIFF's fault, but James Gray's movie wasn't here, and Paul Thomas Anderson's movie wasn't here. And, you know, Behemoth, which is playing at the New York Film Festival, which people are very excited by, wasn't here. You know, Primetime wasn't here.

49:27Sean Fennessey:Yeah. So in some ways, talking about TIFF is recapitulating films that, you know, Amanda saw at Venice or that you guys are all going to see at the New York Film Festival, but it's with some pretty major ones sort of missing. And I think the feeling, fair or not, is 10 years ago, those things might not have just not been missing. They might have been present here rather than somewhere else. There's a whole bunch of tricky reasons for this, you know, and it's not as simple as saying Tiff didn't get the good films. But I know that reading about primetime or reading about the Nathan Fielder doc or reading about some of the other things that were at Venice was a big part of my Tiff.

50:02A big part of my last 10 days was reading about movies that I wasn't seeing. And maybe that's my fault or maybe that's my problem. I think that's true, though. I will be honest. It felt that way in Venice a little bit. And I got, you know, some of the movies that you just listed. And I was also reading about You Can See Everything from afar. So it does, there's something somewhere else at all the festivals at this point because so many films are skipping festivals.

50:29Sean Fennessey:Well, yeah, that's what I was going to say. I feel like things are, there's something is shifting right now. And we've been talking about this a little bit over the last couple of years, especially as Cannes has become so powerful in terms of dictating what the sort of art house prestige slate will look like for the remainder of the year. and that didn't used to be the case 20 years ago and now it's very much the case. And then this year it felt like Cannes was a little bit softer than usual and yet it has still emerged with three or four titles that feel like they're going to make it all the way to the finish line.

50:55Sean Fennessey:So no one's going to be able to get every movie at one single festival. Toronto is one of the few festivals though where you, because of the scope and size and the number of films programmed in the past, maybe you had more of an ability to put your arms around the bulk of the season and maybe that is starting to strain out a little bit. So it's interesting that it's changing in that way. You know what? Can movie not go over well in Toronto or not really was Fjord. Not go over well with me personally, which is another discussion. I don't think it's a very good movie. But it was sort of palpable how just looking at the local reviews or tweets.

51:29So predictable. Yeah. Well, you know.

51:32Sean Fennessey:Like that just didn't go. Canadians and Scandinavians. Yeah. You know? We will talk about Fjord momentarily when we rank our best picture contenders. Um, Adam, is there anything you'd like to promote or talk about that you're working on? Well, uh, you know, I have a podcast that is going to be coming out at the beginning of next year. Uh, it is not with, with, with, with ringer, but you know, uh, hopefully I'll still be allowed on, on your podcast. You guys are both certainly welcome on mine. Amanda's already been on it and that'll, that'll come out next year. Sean, you're slated. Uh, you will be.

52:06Do we have a date? Are you? No, we have to pick a, we have to pick a date. Uh, in a way, I don't want to say too much about it also because it's a proper, you know, broadcaster podcast and I want to let them promote it, but think the movie they live and forcing people to watch a movie again, including you, whatever we talk about, you were going to be forced to, to, to watch again. You have to be on the podcast twice. Each episode is comprised of two appearances by, by, by each of my guests. Sort of a rewatchable conceit. Is that what you're saying? No, not a rewatchable conceit. And we, and we've, and we have first, first of all, Do you guys deliberately rewatch in between discussions of the film on the rewatchables?

52:43No. That's true. Is that podcast an homage to John Carpenter and They Live? No. Am I ever on it in 10-year history? No. So that would be a big... Okay, that's a good point. A big difference between this and the rewatchables is that I'm on it. But, you know, in that I'm the host. but you guys are among a list of absolutely fantastic critics, filmmakers, friends with whom I'm going to discuss some movies.

53:12Sean Fennessey:Sounds like maybe Jordan Firstman will not be on the show though. Just checking in on that. I make a, I mean, I wonder how many filmmakers when they hear about this pod are going to be like, fuck that guy. But I think that there's, but there's also going to be a fair number of filmmakers who've already agreed to be on. I just don't want to spoil. I just don't want to spoil who, who they are, but definitely critics. And, you know, big picture pals. It was so nice seeing you guys in person in Toronto that I wanted to just harangue you on a podcast. Amanda, no spoilers. Did you enjoy doing it? I had a great time.

53:45It was a lot of fun. And I mean, there is some creative direction to it that I personally really enjoyed. So we'll leave it at that. See? I can see Sean's skepticism is just melting as he hears this about creative direction. I can just see it.

54:00Sean Fennessey:I've always been in the bag for Naaman. I think you know that. I appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. Thank you for remembering that, you know, Toronto exists. And I look forward to talking about which movies are we going to argue about? Fjord. Can't wait to talk about Fjord, man. Fjord, Club Kid. Josephine. We don't know yet. Lots to come. Lots to come. Thank you guys for having me as always. Thanks, Adam. Bye, Adam. Bye, guys.

54:28Sean Fennessey:Okay. Best Picture Power Rankings. Yes. You feel ready for this? I do. I made a short-ish list myself ahead of time, but this is collaborative. It is. I'd like to pose something to you before we start. I think since this is the first one, we should start with one and then work our way down to... Number one, what you think is at the top? Yes, number one. Yeah. I'm on board with that. The sure best because, you know, we're building the universe right now. I'm down with that. I think I was hoping to give a complete snapshot of where we are right now. Okay, so you just want to read this list of films.

54:59Sean Fennessey:Do you think that would be a mistake? I just, once again, Sean Fantasy reads a list of films. I think there's proof that that's something people enjoy. It's true. You can do your movie phone voice. Hey, you know, thank you to the people of San Francisco for buying those tickets and selling out. Did you see the show sold out? Oh, it sold out? Yeah. Oh, good. That was pretty cool. That's great. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to go to San Francisco. Never done a show there. I'm very excited. I haven't been in some time. I'm going to need everybody to tell me where to buy vintage Levi's. and food.

55:33Sean Fennessey:We need restaurants. Yeah, but also, Sean, when are we going to dinner? Because you've booked us all night long. Yeah, I don't know. I don't. You always do this. I even stepped in front of you a little bit on this one and I was like, so let's just be clear about our time commitment. I love cinema. I also love cinema, but then when we're on a work trip, I like going out to dinner. Let me go further. Yeah. I love sharing cinema with others. Okay, that's really beautiful. That's what we're doing here. You are the community. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. as far as I can tell right now and you've given this a look beforehand right?

56:06Sean Fennessey:Yes I think there are 30 contenders for best picture right now now nearly all of the fall film festivals have concluded we of course have the New York Film Festival which is going on right now but really kicks into high gear next week with a bunch of new films and then we'll have the AFI Fest we'll have some of the more regional festivals you know your Milbergs your SCAD stuff like that but the biggies are off the board. Yeah. And one of us has seen 23 of the 30 contenders. There's really only seven movies that are true mysteries to us. And even those seven movies, I feel like we know a lot about.

56:48Sean Fennessey:We have a sense of where, yes. And so there's no movie this year. There's no Nosferatu this year. Well, there is, but we know what it is. Yes. And we haven't seen it yet. Yes. But even then, I feel like I have a lot of pre-release information about the movie that indicates. Does that make you feel special? Yeah. Good. Yeah. Okay. And you know what? We're all special in unique ways.

57:16Sean Fennessey:I'm absolutely fascinated by this season. We're going to do this seven times now over the next seven months. I promise it will only be once a month and it will always be appended to the end of an episode that is about a movie. you're promising me or you're promising the people who just like to bitch everyone who enjoys the other thing the other thing I want to announce to you right now live on the show is that over the final 21 weeks leading up to the academy awards we will have an individual segment about every single race okay we used to do this years ago on the show called the big race and we would only talk about like the acting races but every single race we're going to talk about best sound we're going to talk about costume design yeah we're going to really put our heads around it this is me learning that it's more than 21 weeks until the Oscars.

57:58Sean Fennessey:There's 21 episodes. 21 episodes. Yes. Okay, because I was like, that's half a year. We're not. There is more. We are closer than six months at this point, right? No. We're not? No. September, October. March 15th. Right, but now it's September 21st. So we're just under September to October, October, November, December, January, February, March. We're just under six months. Oh, you're right. Yes, yes. You're right. You're right. Yeah. But I, okay. That seems like a good idea. Good job. Yeah, thank you. Um, here are the 30 films. Please sit quietly. You don't want to go back and forth? Yeah, sure.

58:33Sean Fennessey:Okay. I did this alphabetically so as not to tip my hand in any meaningful way. Okay, great. We love to understand how your mind works. Thank you. I'll begin. All of a sudden. Artificial. Behemoth. Being human. La Bola Negra. Club Kid. The Debut. Digger. Dune Part 3. Elsinore. Fatherland. Fjord. The Further Misadventures of Cliff Booth. Ink. The Invite. Josephine. Michael. Minotaur. Obsession. The Odyssey. Paper Tiger. Possible Love. Prime Time. Project Hail Mary. Tender Loving Care. Sense and Sensibility. Werewolf. Wild Horse Nine. Wildwood. You Can See Everything. I think we could host something.

59:10I'm just putting it out there.

59:11Sean Fennessey:We are hosting something.

59:17Sean Fennessey:How do you feel? I really had some good topspin on some of those, I thought. You're an amazing broadcaster. Thank you so much. No one's ever said anything otherwise. We've said many other things about you, but amazing broadcaster, no question. Okay, so I wanted to start with one because normally, and listen, in list making, you know, in our editorial lives, you're supposed to start from the bottom and then reveal to number one. That is how you make a good list. But because this is the first one, we're feeling it out. Yep. We start with number one, which is, of course, The Odyssey. I agree with you.

59:48Sean Fennessey:The Odyssey is the front runner in this race. Yes. Even after all of these fall film festival releases and the hype that has been accrued by those movies.

59:58Sean Fennessey:My head is kind of spinning now, though, about this because you always do you think it's because you don't do Pilates or anything? And so you don't have any sort of center of gravity, like emotionally or physically. I've always had exceptional balance. OK, that's just a fact. All right. And yet you're just you're back and forth. You're like the, you know, the car wash thing. No, I mean, I have an active mind. I have an active mind. If there's anything that is unbalanced, it's my mind. and I'm always looking for the unthought moment. Okay. What aren't they thinking about? Great. How can we surprise them?

1:00:36This is how we miss F1. This is how we miss Fjord for the Palme d 'Or. This is how we miss Shape of Water for the Oscars. Many years ago. No, I fucked up many times.

1:00:50Sean Fennessey:Number two to me is clearly La Bola Negra. That's also, I have it written down. Okay. So La Bola Negra, which just won the TIFF audience award, the People's Choice Award. Was it Smash at a Can? Los Javis won Best Director at Can. I talked to many people at Telluride who swooned over the movie. Now, you haven't seen this movie yet, which is so interesting. I'm going on Thursday. I'm so excited. So now it's in an interesting place where you have really had it hyped to you for five months. Yeah. And I'm wondering if the air will ever come out of the balloon. because if you like it and other people who still haven't seen it like it, this feels like a legitimate threat to the Odyssey.

1:01:29Sean Fennessey:Now, it's so early and we've done this a million times. Emilia Perez, Once Upon a Time, seemed like a significant threat. Right. In a very similar scenario. This movie was acquired by Netflix out of Cannes. Yes. A European title out of Cannes by Netflix coming after a Nolan film. Now, I need to see this movie again now because I feel like a lot of time has passed since I've last seen it. I will say, you don't often text me coming out of a movie that we haven't seen. We like to save it and or you just text me a joke. And this was one of the sincere, like, I was blown away by this. So, you know, I either get it, you did that for Sentimental Value, which didn't ultimately win.

1:02:10And then you did that for Empire of Light, which was one of the worst movies we've ever seen. That's not true.

1:02:15Sean Fennessey:I did not flip for Empire of Light. No, you didn't flip for it. You texted me like in the opposite direction. You were like, this is a, disaster. Like, you know, this is a crime. Like, everyone should be prosecuted for this. Were those the only times I ever texted you after a screening? Those are the ones that I can remember. Wow. Okay. That's interesting. How do I keep that trend going? And also, like, in a festival. Amanda, I've just seen Other Mommy. A tremendous work. Have you seen Other Mommy yet? You can't go without me. We'll see it after I get back. Okay. Yeah. But you can't do it. We can go see it together.

1:02:42I promise. Thank you.

1:02:44Sean Fennessey:There probably will be an entire episode about Other Mommy. Yeah. No, I know. I'm living a whole life about it. the other other mommy trailer was in front of Resident Evil last night and also played so well this is now two trailers that work really well I'm pretty excited about that movie so I'm just putting this out here like early on to say I have it at number two listen we have a we have a document proof that independently I agree with you the interesting thing about it is like of course Netflix has never won Netflix trying to get over the hump has been a theme of this show since we've been doing this show they didn't produce the movie but they did acquire it and they're they're giving it the full push they're putting it in a lot of cities they're gonna put on a lot of screens they're going to work hard this is their this is their big ticket and there will be Nolan fatigue I don't know if there will be enough Nolan fatigue to lead to losing but Frank Choice and a movie as passionate as La Bola Negra that I think will have as passionate a response as the movie is is really interesting I just want to say that at this stage now because if I had to put money on it I think that will be the story of the season I think it will be the Odyssey versus this movie and the two the differences and the similarities between those two films?

1:03:50I believe that. Okay. I think, again, I made a point of getting it on the calendar even before I won it, Tiff, because I was like, this is the one I can tell. Just as soon as Netflix announced that, you know, incredibly long run, I was like, oh, this is your awards film. This is what you think your best chance is. And that's a very seasoned and experienced awards team, even though they've never made it to Best Picture. They haven't won, but they're as smart

1:04:12Sean Fennessey:and as invested in this as anybody. So they know and that they've identified it, says to me. I'm, you know, I'm also, it's a sweeping historical epic. Penelope Cruz is in it. Sounds great. And Glenn Close. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know. Yeah, I'm excited to see it again, actually. Just quickly for the purposes of this discussion, the seven movies that we haven't seen, Artificial, Being Human, which we were not at TIFF, Dune Part 3, The Further Misadventures of Cliff Booth, Sense and Sensibility. Yeah. A lot of people have seen that. I'm seeing it next week if you'd like to join me. Werewolf, and Wildwood.

1:04:48Sean Fennessey:Some people have seen Wildwood. Some people have seen Sensibility. I know someone who's seen Dune Part 3. Oh. Yeah. Okay. I'm not sure that any of those movies really feel like they're going in the 10. Not even Dune Part 3. Oh, sorry. Besides Dune Part 3. I should say it. I shouldn't have said that. When you think about number three, I'll give you my gut on number three. Yeah. I think Wild Horse 9 is my gut. It's also what I have written in number three. No, do you think that's because you and I have gotten too similar over the years? No, I think it's because that was sort of pre-identified. I think the festivals kind of confirmed it.

1:05:24And McDonough has like a long track record, at least with nominations. He does. There is a big Malkovich moment happening. And so it does seem that in 10 slots, that just, that fits right in. And that's, is that Searchlight? That is Searchlight. That is Searchlight. And so Searchlight, that'll be Searchlight.

1:05:44Sean Fennessey:movie yeah I I agree with you um they do have another movie on the board behemoth um I'm not sure if I see that in the 10 yet yeah what do you what do you think is number four I'm I'm I'm legitimately something I know at least four movies that I feel confident will be in the top yeah but I don't know what I only I only filled out I have seven here and I put them in an order so at four I have Dune part three written. Just because you feel like it's just a lock and we know what it is and Villeneuve is admired. I think pretty close to a lock he is admired. The other was part two was nominated. It was nominated but it had significantly I think it had significantly fewer nominations and wins over one.

1:06:31Sean Fennessey:One had a great craft run where I think it won five or six craft awards and I think Dune part two had fewer nominations and fewer wins. I think that there is some of the Return of the King vibe and appreciation for Villeneuve at least below the line and probably in director if I had to say. He didn't get in. He didn't get it. Last time he didn't get in for one either. And that is something that has eluded him. I do also think that this going up against Doomsday will cleverly present itself as like the lesser of the blockbuster evils. And it's either you can be this slop and in the comic book minds forever or you can elevate.

1:07:18So the positioning is favorable for it.

1:07:21Sean Fennessey:I mean, that is effectively going to be the marketing. Yeah. So I do think it'll happen. I feel confident about its presence. It doesn't have to be four. It doesn't have to be four. But I understand your thinking completely. I'll give you just other movies that I think will be there. I think the invite will be there. Invite's number five for me. I do as well. A movie that they're doing a very interesting thing here where every three or four weeks, they're screening it for a new group of people. Guilds, various influencing bodies. Yeah. just to remind people like, hey, don't forget about this. Don't forget about this.

1:08:00Sean Fennessey:Don't forget about this. It's a smaller movie. Did pretty good business but was not a blockbuster compared to some of these other titles. Was not a big fall festival movie. So I think they're handling that very well. I think so. It plays really well. It is also now just making it out. You know, it's available to rent. People who can't go to the theaters are seeing it. I have just a lot of anecdotal of, hey, you know what I saw? The invite. It's really great. From pretty much everyone in my life. many if not all of the actors will be out on the road either for this oscar season penelope cruz being one of them um olivia wilde is also in behemoth um or seth rogan has the studio season two coming out at some point so i and so you'll be reminded oh i really like all of these people and i just i think it's the right mix of provocative but also um relatable accessible Yeah, accessible in a way that I think the drama is too provocative, even though it's, you know, my fave.

1:09:00And then we can talk about Club Kid later. Yeah, I mean, can A24 navigate three, maybe even four contenders is a real question.

1:09:09Sean Fennessey:And what is their leading contender? Is the invite really their leading contender? Or is it Club Kid or is it the debut? the debut it's one of those weird situations where it feels like if Julianne Moore doesn't win Best Actress I'll be really surprised at this point there are some storytelling choices that are a bit unusual and at times surreal in a way that feels a little bit outside what you might be expecting and what you're hoping to get out of a movie that is otherwise being celebrated in the way that it is it really worked for me but I don't know if it's going to play the same way broadly to like the steak eaters of the Academy, you know, the 67 year old producers who don't have as unusual a taste.

1:09:54Sure. Will it play to Europeans? Because that's like, I can't tell the other half of it.

1:10:02Sean Fennessey:I think so. I haven't seen it yet. I was really surprised that it didn't place at Toronto also. It seemed like it had a rapturous perception there, though maybe it was just all of the critic friends I follow who were really thrilled by the like playbill that they made. Which, you know, again, great marketing. They're doing a good job around that. I, um, I don't know. I found it tremendously satisfying and fun. I thought it was a great time at the movies. Jesse Eisenberg is liked though. I, in my head, a real pain had been nominated for best picture and it was not. He was nominated for screenplay and Kieran Culkin won for supporting actor.

1:10:34That's right. But, you know, there is some history there in terms of him being embraced by the Academy.

1:10:39Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I mean, it just has a very simple thing, which is that everybody likes Julianne Moore and Giamatti. Yeah. Everybody thinks that they're great. If you meet a person who's like, I don't really like Paul Giamatti. That's like, you should be suspicious of that person. You know, they're both just so gifted and doing their thing. But the movie has some unusual storytelling choices that I think people will bump on. Coming out of Telluride, I would have put it in my 10. And now I think there's a little bit of a reexamination. Yeah. Of the big can titles, you know, we heard Adam say Fjord didn't go over well.

1:11:09Right.

1:11:09Sean Fennessey:It seems like the reception of Minotaur was sort of like a very polite, like this is quite good, but maybe not rapturous. Yeah. How are you feeling about those movies? I mean, Fjord has The Palm and it has Neon and it has Sebastian Stan and Renata Renzva. And Sebastian Stan is already on the cover of New York Magazine this month. Like it's, I think it has enough that it will get a spot. I agree with you. You want to put that a little lower on the totem pole? Yeah, sure. Seven? Great. 7 is wonderful.

1:12:08Sean Fennessey:to learn more.

1:12:38Sean Fennessey:limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven day return policy at carvana.com. When the sun goes down, the appetizers come out. Yeah, you heard that right. Late night half price appetizers are here at Applebee's. Saucy, sweet, and spicy boneless wings. Crispy, cheesy mozzarella sticks. Creamy spinach and artichoke dip. Your favorite apps, half price available every single night because why should appetizers have curfews? Tap the banner to learn more. Dining only for a limited time at participating locations. Restrictions apply. copyright 2026 Applebee's Restaurant LLC. So then what's going at six and five based on this discussion so far?

1:13:17Sean Fennessey:Where did you put the invite? I guess the invite, five feels very powerful for a small film. Like in my mind, it's more like eight because there's, and with some unknowns and it's going to end up like nine or 10, but it's going to get in. That's kind of my vibe on the movie right now. All right. But some of that is contingent on the debut in Club Kid. Why don't you put it at seven then? and Fjord at... Six? Yeah. And I don't know what's at five. Well, do you still feel the Project Hail Mary is in? I don't know what to do with it. I don't know what to do. Everyone's gotten quiet and Ryan Gosling is bam, bam.

1:13:52And, you know, I just... Puppets are back and then they weren't back and up is down.

1:13:57Sean Fennessey:Ryan Gosling is Starfighter in Star Wars Starfighter. And then he's not Doom. Who is he in the... Doom? No, he's Ghost Rider. Thank you. and Starfighter and Ghost Rider sure and Bam Bam okay I whatever you want to do in your life I guess I feel like it's gone quiet but that is also the playbook for something that comes out in March I think it's in and will reheat I do as well but that is three huge movies in The Odyssey Dune and Project Hail Mary you're right and that's very unusual yes I still think it's going to hang in there. It's Amazon's movie. It's their one big movie. It's a movie they're going to push really hard.

1:14:43Sean Fennessey:I'm going to say let's put it at five just because we know what we have with it. Okay. I'm at peace with that. In the same vein of Dune Part 3 where it's like, well, we know that this is a movie that is a proven commodity in the Oscar race. We know that Project Hail Mary was a big success that people liked. So this is cute. These are the seven for-sures that I had written down in almost exactly this order. Now, we've seen six of these seven movies and we've seen the two previous films in the Dune series. So that's part of it, right? That's like, we're working with knowledge that we have, not knowledge we're missing.

1:15:15Sean Fennessey:Now we need to get into a place where you have to take some chances in this discussion. Can a movie like All of a Sudden or on the, all the way on the other side of the spectrum, a movie like Michael get into a Best Picture race in 2026? I'd like to read you, here's the rest of my list. Please. Michael, question mark, Fatherland, question mark, Club Kid, question mark i play rocky question mark all of a sudden question mark and then the debut was up there also i didn't include i play rocky in my long list it's 31 movies oh oh dear no obsession for you amanda i don't think it's gonna happen in best picture anymore i think it's gonna be an indian avareti and also ran to julianne moore uh and that would be a repeat effectively weapons Yeah.

1:16:02It could it happen? I don't know if it could happen in screenplay or in in something. Yeah. I think that's more likely than. Best picture breakthrough.

1:16:14Sean Fennessey:Indy Navarrete versus Julianne Moore would be a very interesting comparison to the Mikey Madison versus Demi Moore campaign. Is Indy Navarrete lead? Yes. Yes. I think so. I think so. Even though maybe she's not. I think they would run her in that. We don't have to get into that fight already, but I'm not totally sure. That's right. If I were them, I would not run her against Julianne Moore. Well, maybe they'll get away with not doing it, even though it is a two-hander. Yeah. Obsession in Variety's predictions is not... I'm not seeing it here for original screenplay. Okay. That's pretty weird. How can that be?

1:16:57Sean Fennessey:Anyhow. Okay. So of those movies that you listed with your question marks. Yes. What are you most confident in? What am I most confident in? Hmm.

1:17:13I still sort of think the debut seems like it's going to happen. I feel like the Jesse Eisenberg plus the Julianne Moore of it all. I haven't seen it. There's a warmth for it at Telluride. Could be wrong. I just argued against that same reasoning for obsession. So, you know, there's no consistency in my logic here. I'm not against it.

1:17:37Sean Fennessey:And like I said, I think that there is... Coming out of Telluride, I would have said no question. Yeah. It's going in. In the aftermath, I've heard from people who know stuff who are like, eh, maybe this didn't totally work. Okay. I'll put it on there because I know what it is. And I know it's going to contend. Do you want to do Club Kid? I don't think it's going to go. I don't think it is either, which I think is devastating. But that's okay. We'll have a great time with it. I think there's just too much on A24's plate, if I'm being totally honest with you. Now we say, can something more unusual happen?

1:18:11Sean Fennessey:Can a You Can See Everything become the first documentary to ever be nominated for Best Picture? It'd be fun. Can... I wouldn't know because I haven't seen it yet. Can Obsession get in as a gnarly horror movie? So what do you think? I said what I think, but I don't. Well, it's the same thing as F1 in that it is like a highly commercial movie that is quote unquote original. I think actually F1 and Obsession are original in the exact same way in that there are lots of forebears and there's a lot to kind of go on. But they did make up this whole story and all these characters and it came from nothing.

1:18:48And the business likes that.

1:18:50Sean Fennessey:They want to reward that. Yeah. You know, something that can be commercially viable. but feels new. And do you think they pick that over Michael? God, I hope so. I mean, I hope so too. That is, that's... Michael is the exact opposite of that. It's true. And it's a good argument for obsession. Okay. I'm game to put it in. Let's put obsession at 10. Great. I'm not at all convinced that that's where it's going to land. Okay. But for now, knowing what we know, I think it's a little bit easier to see something like that happening rather than Minotaur or... I know. Digger or, you know. Yes, I have seen Digger.

1:19:28Sean Fennessey:And it's not near your top 10. You know, the Academy historically really does like Inaritu and likes Inaritu more than anyone on this podcast right now and responds to it. It is very Inaritu. So, you know. Maybe it could go in. I don't know. It's not hugely commercial is what I would say. A lot of people pushed it out, a lot of the pundits after the screening on Saturday. So you were there. I was there. I never had it in, you know? But I don't, what I saw did not lead me to think that it's going to make top 10. Could be wrong, but obsessions. But here's the thing I'll say in response to this. And this is, you know, Amanda's late September annual, but what about the international voters?

1:20:15And I always overcorrect. And I think we, but we start with too many Hollywood titles. I'm always like, let's put six or seven. But we're pretty much only doing...

1:20:26Sean Fennessey:We've got Fjord and La Bola Negra as our two international entrants so far. That's true. So what's the third? What's the third? Is the third all of a sudden? Hamaguchi was nominated for Best Picture for Drive My Car. It's true. This movie is going to be one of the best reviewed movies of the year, no question about it. Yes. It is going to be a critical darling. It's going to get, I think, a lot of consideration for both actresses, for Tao Akamoto and Virginie Afira. And I think there's a Virginie Afira best actress campaign that I think could work. She's phenomenal in the movie. It is a challenging movie for the steak eaters.

1:21:05Sean Fennessey:It's a three and a half hour durational personal drama about elder care. And capitalism. and the beauty and the beauty of life. Life and death, everything. Yeah, we could put, you know, the counter to that is that the Academy loves Pawel Pawlikowski. That's a known quantity. That movie is 72 minutes long and also stars Sandra Huller. So, I know. I don't feel like the reception's been strong enough. I don't think, I like the movie. I don't, it doesn't feel the same as Cold War, which Cold War, I think, I think they felt like they had a discovery and him getting into director that year was so exciting.

1:21:44Sean Fennessey:It felt like the 70s Oscars. But it doesn't feel there's the same level of acclaim. And I think most of the acclaim will be around her in that triumvirate of performances that she has with, I guess, a quartet, right? She's in Digger as well. That's right. So she's in Digger. She's in Rose. She's in Fatherland. And she's in Project Hail Mary. And she sings in Project Hail Mary. Yes. Which is like a nice callback to Tony Erdman. she's gonna get recognized somehow yeah I don't think Fatherland's gonna get in okay just like I don't think Ink's gonna get in just like I don't think Josephine's gonna get in just like I don't think I'm waiting with bated breath to see the response to Behemoth I'm waiting with bated breath to see Behemoth I'll tell you this right now I really don't know okay and I feel comfortable saying I don't know I don't mean that in a pejorative like I literally don't know whether or not people will respond to the movie um What else?

1:22:42Paper Tiger?

1:22:44Sean Fennessey:I mean, I hope so. Yeah. Well, it's opening the New York Film Festival. So people are going to be back in the mix a bit. It's going to get very well reviewed as all of James Gray's films are. I think it's actually smart to play it there and to not run it through the festival machine the way that Adam was hoping he was going to be able to see it there. But whether or not it has the power to overcome some of these other movies in this particular context. Right. Gray has just never succeeded in this particular space. He's a New York filmmaker. Yes. You know, it's a Scorsese thing. Scorsese for years was up against Hollywood and they were just like, eh, you're too New York.

1:23:19Sean Fennessey:And this movie is the most New York movie he's made in some time. What's, I mean, what's the last, what's a wild swing we can take? I don't think, primetime feels too transgressive to me. We'll talk about it on Friday on the show. I really liked it, but it does not feel like an Oscar movie. Is tender loving care possible? This is Mike Lee's new film. I want it to be. But, you know. You want to hope-dict this movie right now? No, I think we should probably do All of a Sudden. Okay. I'm fine with that. Let's do All of a Sudden. Based on precedent. This will change a lot. Yeah. And yet this doesn't seem so crazy to me, what we have here.

1:23:57Sean Fennessey:Do you want to read this 10? Sure. Since I've already read so many movie titles today. We trade it. Sure. At 10, Obsession. 9, All of a Sudden. 8, The Debut. 7, The Invite. 6, Fjord, 5, Project Hail Mary, 4, Dune Part 3, 3, Wild Horse 9, 2, La Bola Negra, and 1, The Odyssey. When you make a quote card about this, you will note, Jack Sanders, that this is not a review of the quality of these films or our personal preferences. I don't know why I'm still doing the movie voice. I'm going to write that down verbatim. Can I just say something very briefly? I feel like the narrative most of this year has been like oh 2026 like kind of good like I'm looking at this 31 list this list of 31 films I'm like this is a really good year like I think this is a really good year I agree I mean and like have you seen Club Kid yet?

1:24:48Sean Fennessey:I haven't I'm also I'm using the ones that I have seen that I love and then also some of the ones that you guys have seen that you've spoke I think it's not a ceiling scraping year is the thing to me I'll just give you my own stupid metric no five star movies so far for me this year Yeah, I think that's probably true for me as well. That's just, you know, it's my silly little system, but it's unusual for there to not be one for me. As somebody who wants to, I go into every movie wanting to love it. And there's been stuff that's gotten close that I really liked a lot. I'm not sure if anything will top my glee during Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie, the first time I saw it.

1:25:27Sean Fennessey:But I saw that last year. So that's the other thing is that was screened for me, I think, in November of 2025. which is a long time ago now. All right. I feel like we did good work here. Okay. Do you want to quickly share some feelings about the film Resident Evil, which you've now seen? I have now seen. So this, I will spoil it, I guess, sort of. Well, if you don't want the movie spoiled for you, you shouldn't listen, nor should you probably listen to the Zach Kregger conversation or at least not much of that. But feel free. Yeah, I really don't want to hear from people who care about the spoilers of Resident Evil enough to be mad at me, but also didn't care enough to go see it opening weekend as much of America did.

1:26:03Sean Fennessey:What if those people were on the front lines of saving lives as doctors, physicians, assistants, nurses, surgeons? Then I thank them and commend them. And I also hope that they have the responsibility to not listen to this. Right. Press pause. In the same way that they take on the responsibility of saving other people's lives every day. That's right. You know? Yeah, absolutely. You should be in charge of everything. Thank you for finally saying it. I really liked this. You know, we spent the whole weekend together and we're talking with another friend who had seen Obsession and that was like, okay, and so now I'm going to do Resident Evil because that's the next thing.

1:26:44Sean Fennessey:I referenced our friend too, Zach. Yeah, and I said, okay, so that's going to be a little different for you, right? And this feels less like a great example of a movie breaking genre containment and more like just a really sick movie for the sickos. Yes. And I got it. There is like, it's obviously a very funny movie, but there's a real chutzpah to it that I could pick up on, even though by the end, like with, you know, like the wart tentacles, I was like, I'm good. You know, like I have other things that I could be doing right now. And like warts in particular, eh. But Austin Abrams is amazing.

1:27:25I think like the first, what is it, 30 minutes really until you get the Resident Evil title when he's, you know, in the woods and then they go to the farmhouse is just absolutely electric. And that does also include the now, you know, memed by Chris and you shooting a little girl in the face.

1:27:43Sean Fennessey:Very enjoyable stuff. Yeah, that was really good. And I think that was one of the only times that I was like freaked out. That's the other thing is that I didn't find it. I found it really, really gross, but not particularly scary. and but I I paid that that's a compliment for me because I wasn't like I wasn't having a bad time I was just kind of like oh okay so what you're going for here is to be as gnarly as possible and also just to be on the ride it's very lean I don't know anything about the video game as previously discussed I'm sure there were easter eggs in fact I met a listener at the screening who said there were some but they you know other than video games it didn't really none of the easter eggs really leapt out at me yeah there are a couple of things that where he's spending two seconds longer on a moment yeah to give you that sensation but it is not the like hey here's this character who's who you always loved you know but i didn't i you know i didn't really worry about that i will say i thought everything was really gnarly and every once in a while you could see the computer animation of the gnarliness and that just doesn't work for me as well as that's just that is an aesthetic well it's interesting I didn't actually talk to Zach about this maybe I should have but I watched his video that he made for Vanity Fair about the bodies off the roof sequence which I think is amazing which is amazing but you can tell that those are the crowd those are my crowd people right the people are not real but the bodies that are falling that was done practically so but the cityscape is not real so the buildings beside him which looked so real to me in the film yeah Were CGI.

1:29:20Sean Fennessey:And the buildings in the background, in Abrams' character's view, were CGI. And the bodies that were falling were like real blood bags, like real, you know, practically done and quite dangerous for Abrams as he was running through the streets. And I thought it was kind of, and I really regret not asking him about this, but I thought it was a fascinating fusion of the false and the real. And like the way that it can be used positively in the execution of a scene. Now, the third act, which is a little bit more controversial, features a lot of CGI. Yes. And there are some reasons for that, obviously.

1:29:55Sean Fennessey:And I've seen some people be really down on the third act. Chris and I had a really fun time with it, I think, because of the mic drop quality of it, where it was just like, movie's over, fuck you. Yeah, no, I thought that was funny. I mean, also Griffin Newman shows up in the third act. And I, like many people, did the Leo pointing at the screen. I was like, hey, that's Griffin Newman. And I was like alone, 2 p.m. on a Thursday, looking around. Like, hey, that's my guy. That's my friend. It was so wonderful. So that was great. I know. I knew that. I didn't tell you that. No, you didn't tell me that.

1:30:21But that's better because then I was like, wait a second.

1:30:25Sean Fennessey:I was with Griffin and David last fall and we were sitting together and we'd been together for like three hours in a bar. And then Griffin just started telling me. I don't even know how he led to it. Maybe because they had just recorded a pod with Kreger. And then as soon as he told me, I was like, fuck, I wish I didn't know that. I would have loved to have had that experience of seeing him on screen. I will also say, and this is around the third act, but the image of, so when they go to the nursery in the the maternity ward in the hospital I was like don't you fucking flash this Zach Kregor I'm gonna be so mad at you and then the image of the baby hands coming up over the plastic box is the funniest thing I've ever seen so good it's so good and it was the exact opposite of the flash like I got the the sense of the humor it was really about saving the babies yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:31:11No, it was great. So I was very pro. And it was more like, okay, now I understand Sean and Chris better than I found my movie. Totally.

1:31:22Sean Fennessey:It's riffing on things that we love. Yeah. But it was not at all alienating to me in the way that both some horror movies, but certainly most video game movies could be. Zach said it. He's like, I'm not into torture porn. That's not, I don't want to watch that kind of thing. This was a much more like irreverent, fun, funny roller coaster style approach to that kind of story. Okay, great. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Let's go now to my conversation with Zach Kregor.

1:31:50Sean Fennessey:Zach Kregor is here. Back three for three. How are you doing? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Are you excited about the release of your film? I'm excited to have it out there. Yeah. Okay. So the first thing I wanted to ask you was, I know that you went directly from weapons into this movie. And I think you might have told me that when we talked for weapons. And that sounded really stressful. It was hard. When we spoke last, I was in Prague in prep, like deep in it. Right. Yeah. So was that a good choice? Good, bad, I have no idea. It's what happened. And it feels fine. I feel like I was able to maybe harness momentum, you know, and I feel like Austin and I were in a good kind of flow state for weapons and we were able to just pick up where we left off with this and that was great.

1:32:39Yeah, I think it was the right choice. Now I'm like a corpse, you know. It was because also this movie, we finished the movie like a week and a half ago, you know, maybe. Maybe I'm being a little, maybe it was two weeks ago. But it was like, you know, it was pencils down at 11.59 Saturday night because the DCP had to ship. And there's actually the international version is different than the domestic version because I was still needing to make changes. And like we missed our international finish line time, you know. So there are shots I'm not stoked on in the international version that like are better in the domestic.

1:33:15That's how down to the wire it was. And then straight from that into the, you know, press stuff.

1:33:22Sean Fennessey:So I was thinking about celebrating the idea of like two movies in two years from a filmmaker I like, which never happens anymore. And it did used to happen with some frequency in the 50s, 60s, 70s. And now it does feel like this is more of a rare thing to celebrate. Like what do you attribute that to? Well, it's even crazier that they used to do that in the 70s because the edit process was so much different. And now, like I talk about this with my editor. I'm like, I can't even imagine the post-process if we were doing physical cutting and reel-to-reel and like trying things. Two frames off. Okay, give me 10 minutes.

1:33:59I have no idea how long it took. But it's like, so that's, I think, part of the reason movies took so much longer back then. It's wild. Anyway. Sorry, what was your question? Well, it wasn't even a question.

1:34:10Sean Fennessey:It was like an observation. And I was wondering if you took anything, whether it's specifically strategically about how to make a movie or even just like your mind state coming out of weapons going into a movie like this. Because they're similar, but they're also very different. They're very different. Okay. So part of it is like the way that right after Barbarian, I wrote Weapons, Resident Evil, and Flood very close together. Right. That's your next movie. Flood is my next movie. And so Weapons was the one I was trying to get going first because I wrote it first. And then when that stalled because of like weird casting things and all this, then I was going to jump right into Flood.

1:34:45So I was going to shoot Flood before I did Weapons. And then the way things worked out, I was kind of pushing both moves forward. Like which one is going to go? I'll jump on either one that goes. It ended up being Weapons that went. And then I was going to do Flood, but it turned out that Resident Evil, there's a rights thing. And it was like if I don't shoot it next, I'll probably never get to make it. And I was thinking, like, do I shoot Flood and roll the dice that I'll never make Resident Evil? Or do I make Resident Evil and roll the dice that hopefully on the other side I'll still be able to make Flood?

1:35:17It was a super stressful thing. All of this is during the edit of Weapons when I had to make these things. And also, it was like Flood and Resident Evil were written simultaneously. And so Flood is a very cerebral, it's more sophisticated. It feels more like weapons. It's much more like something that I feel like Flood, you could maybe put on my tombstone. And Resident Evil was this little playtime to just break up the strain of writing Flood. Resident Evil was easy, dude, to write. It was just dumb fun. I wrote it with my buddy, and we were just like, oh, oh, oh, and then, uh, uh, uh. And really not agonizing over anything.

1:35:56I wrote it in 15 hours probably, and just were like, this feels fun. I'd like to see this movie. It's a rock 'em sock 'em thing. I think that's what I would say. That's what you said, yeah. And Flood, then I would go back and agonize by myself and work incredibly hard. And so that's partly, I don't know where I'm going with this, but to me, Resident Evil was always supposed to be just this fun spa day, whereas Weapons and Flood were really different. It ended up being the hardest movie I've ever, I've only made three movies, but it was so much harder than I had guessed. I thought it would be like, turn my brain off and have a blast and I can shoot these sequences.

1:36:41You know, this is one thing I feel confident about. I was like, I know where to put the camera to like craft a horror suspense thing. So that's all I'm going to do. And what a great time. And it ended up being. Why was it so hard? Just because.

1:36:53Sean Fennessey:What was the number one thing you did not anticipate? I didn't anticipate being sick the whole time. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's bad. Yeah, I had pneumonia for the first half, and then I had like a bacterial infection for the back half. And it was very intense. And I was never – I never had 50 % of my body, you know. And so that was really hard. So you take that and then you put that in being nocturnal for however many months. In the north of the Czech Republic, in the snow, in the freezing cold, not seeing the sun ever. even when we were shooting on stage we were nocturnal because the schedule kind of demanded it you know so it's like talk about a morale killer like make your crew shoot indoors nights for weeks at a time and people just start to lose it you know and so that was like that was so hard why did you do that why did you shoot it in the snow why did you shoot it at night when I'm writing it I'm like this would be cool in the snow and like you know He lies about not having chains, and that's why he slides in the snow, and it's his lie that made him – that's the first domino.

1:38:00And, you know, I was – there's lots of themes in this, but one of the themes is cutting corners, and he is guilty of that. And that's why he's in this situation. And so I – by the – you know, I didn't interrogate these decisions when I'm writing. I just – right. And then, you know, I didn't appreciate it when I was selling the movie. And then all of a sudden it's like, okay, we're going to make it. And you are the dog that caught the mail truck. And you're just like, oh, no. I have to go figure all this stuff out.

1:38:33Sean Fennessey:It's so funny, though. Like, the movie has no sweat on it. Like, it doesn't feel like a movie. I'm not just saying this to gas you. Like, it doesn't feel like a movie that was hard to make. Like it's a ride and you get really involved in it, right? And it does feel like you executed what you'd conceived. Great. And even like I repeated what you said to me on the show last year because I was like, this is pretty much exactly what he promised. And you delivered on the thing that he promised. And so like I'm curious about how it feels like when something, did anything go wrong? Like when something goes wrong, what do you do?

1:39:04Sean Fennessey:Even if you don't have like the mental energy because you don't feel well to push through on a day. Well, partly is I just have such an incredible support system. You know, a movie is like not just the director. It's like it's a whole team. And so I could be, you know, I could be deathly ill. And I still have my department heads and I have my producer, Miri, and I have all these people, you know, that are going to prop me up and help me get over the finish line. I also am a hyper prepper. You know, I am about – I don't know if there's anyone who is more – I spend so much energy on the prep. I mean, I make the movie in prep, you know, and so.

1:39:44But what goes into that? Does that mean storyboarding? Does that mean storyboarding? This movie, so I had to, because so much of this is like, I hadn't gone to Prague to scout and we hadn't built anything. So I couldn't photo board, which is what I usually do. So I storyboarded every single frame of the movie, every frame. Months in advance in LA here, you know, just did that. That way we are building the sets to my boards. You know, I am scouting to the boards. I'm still, you know, looking for improvements. But we shot, I'd say 97 % of the movie is boarded exactly as it is. There are a few shots I found in the moment where I was like, let's do this.

1:40:22Let's get this if we have time. But generally, that was the blueprint. So does that mean that the script is etched in stone? No, actually, I made many changes in prep. You know, like he wasn't on the phone walking to the hospital. The whole final lab attack is completely different than it was scripted and storyboarded. so it was like during production um the stunt team took my storyboards and they do they stunt always does a previs where they film like you know on an empty stage they film your sequences to show you what they're going to do in their approach right and so i actually had the good fortune of watching the lab attack as it was scripted and boarded you know probably week two of production and i was like this is not good it's just and it's not they didn't do anything The conceit is not working.

1:41:06It was too quick and it just didn't work. So during production, I had to rewrite, re-board, and then reshape that whole final sequence. I know people still find it unsatisfying, but it is what it is. I actually love it. I don't give a shit. But we had to pivot and reinvent the whole ending of the movie. And it was always going to end with him turning into a monster, but it was like the sequence of events was completely different.

1:41:34Sean Fennessey:so when when you realize that something that you've come up with isn't good are you like all the time but is is it are you beating yourself up about it yeah i'm i'm i'm not good about like being nice to myself but then how do you figure out how to fix it you obsess and you just obsess and you you try many different i you know i try and give myself okay i'm gonna write six different solutions to this problem and I'm going to let all six of them be bad. Okay. My only goal, the only metric of success right now is that I have six separate things. Okay. And then generally one of them will be, will surprise me.

1:42:14You know, I give myself space to have bad ideas. I encourage myself to have bad ideas. When I do that, something I unclench from result and I am allowed to trick myself into having fun and being creative. And so that's, I try and approach writing that way. I try and approach everything that way is try and take as much of the result and the stress out of the creative process, which is very difficult when you're dealing with tens of millions of dollars of someone else's money. But, um, that's, that's how the joy comes through, you know? And so, so, you know, it's hard when you're in production, you're fucking exhausted.

1:42:50You've got your movies broken and you got to figure it out. But, you I feel like the only tool I have is to like, don't solve it, just play with it. And give yourself permission to have a bad idea, and generally you'll accidentally have a good one.

1:43:06Sean Fennessey:Did you actually like working at this scale? Because even though this is such an intimate, tight story, I feel like it's a much bigger movie than the two previous movies. It is, it is. It feels smaller to me. And it's partly the runtime. Partly it's one actor.

1:43:24But it was, you know, in a lot of ways, I completely recognize how it's bigger. All these set pieces were all like little movies in and of themselves. It's never just, you know, two people sitting and talking in a room sounds like paradise to me now. But so, yeah, I get it. But it's also it's like, you know, if you're prepped and you and you are everyone is on the same page and everyone is clear about the mission, it's not it's not so daunting. You know, clear planning is the solution to all of the overwhelming, you know, things that come. And the lizard will grow to the size of its cage. So even if I was shooting like a movie in a diner with two people talking, somehow, some way, it would become overwhelming.

1:44:07Almost. You know, that's just the law of making any movie ever. It's like you always feel like you just don't have enough time and you just don't have enough money. And how are we going to pull this off? And then you just do, you know, because you leap before you look and you just have to have faith that, like, you're going to figure it out.

1:44:23Sean Fennessey:Do you see, even though the timing was not necessarily in your control, each movie being kind of a reaction to each other in terms of what you're trying to accomplish tonally or the scope or anything like that? Maybe. I don't know if I have enough perspective to know if that's true. I know that, like, Resident Evil was supposed to be my, like, just play. and then you know weapons is this deeply personal um necessary thing for me and then flood is this like other like really important thing to me and and this was supposed to be like a little fun palate cleanser in between these two like you know things um so i and that that's how i think of them is like you know i think of resident evil though is a little heavier than the way that you have described it a few times it is and there is a lot of meaning for me in that politically and personally and there's there's there and it's funny like resident evil has not been consumed by the the meaning talk and the way that weapons was even though to me it is a movie loaded with meaning um that's fine i have to let that be what it is do you think that okay actually i want to go back ask you about something you mentioned earlier you said that you thought you might lose the chance to make this movie if you didn't make it when you did yeah but i also read you say that maybe you just wouldn't call it Resident Evil and you'd still make the movie?

1:45:43No, I don't know. I don't remember saying that. I trust that I said something along those lines. I think what I was trying to communicate was like, I have to write a movie that would matter to me whether it was or wasn't called Resident Evil. Like, I would never want to make something just because I get to make a Resident Evil movie. You know, it has to be a movie that is like a burning thing for me. I would not have made this movie if I couldn't call it Resident Evil I think that's been like I don't want to even get into the whole bullshit of like how the internet has been you know my relationship to the internet but I think I know right I know but I do think that people have accused me of hijacking the franchise IP to make a movie I wanted to make and slapping Resident Evil on it Right.

1:46:36So I could get it. But that isn't what you said a year ago.

1:46:38Sean Fennessey:You were like, I love these games. I'm inspired by the game. Look, I know the truth about myself. Sorry, I think I just spat when I said it. The truth about this, and I sleep soundly at night because I know me, and I know why I did this. I wanted to write a Resident Evil movie. That's the movie we made. I think along the way, I fell in love with the story, and I would have wanted to make it, even if they took the Resident Evil thing away from me, I don't think I would have, but I would have wanted to. So I think that's what I was saying. But there's also something wonderful in the movie with respect to that, that I'm not a gamer and I played Resident Evil, but not hardly at all.

1:47:12Sean Fennessey:But I do know that you are like actively nodding and at times almost replicating the experience of either playing the game or like searching for the shotgun shells. That's the point of the movie. Opening the drawers, you know, like and obviously dropping an everyman into a situation rather than a, you know, special forces guy. So I'm curious, like, how much of that you're thinking about in the construction, where you're like, this is going to be a tasty little Easter egg for my friends at home versus, you know, can the mom I was on the playground with who was asking me about the movie yesterday, can she enjoy it?

1:47:47Sean Fennessey:Having no relationship to this. You know, I wrote it a while ago, so I don't remember, you know, I think I just knew, like, this story will approximate the feeling of the games. it will, you know, it will check the boxes that I want checked in a Resident Evil movie. And then as I'm going, you know, the Easter eggs are just organic to the story. So I'm not really shoehorning anything in. You know, I mean, yes, I put some spray cans over here at a frame and I made sure that the ammo box is the exact same. I caught that yesterday. I saw it a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the barn, yeah. Honestly, here's, you heard it here first, but, you know, that typewriter on the desk, I went back and reshot that because I forgot to put the, that wasn't even about that.

1:48:28You know, I just, he looked in an empty office and then like a week and a half later, I was like, I got to put the typewriter on that desk. We got to go back and we got to reshoot that. And I did. I'm so glad I did because, you know. People like it. Yeah. But it's like, that just goes to show you, that is not my priority in making this movie is like, get the Easter eggs, you know, all that stuff. I just, yeah.

1:48:47Sean Fennessey:There's also something that I found really amusing in the movie. And I was wondering how intentional it was, which is it felt like you were kind of glancing at or mocking horror movie orthodoxy. It was sort of like the safety on the gun, no service on the cell phone, these like conventions that we encounter or like a little girl who seems like she needs help. Like these are things that we come to expect in these movies, but because the movie is this very delicate balance between horror and comedy, like it's not, oh, no service. This character's fucked. It's like no service. Of course, this guy's a buffoon, you know?

1:49:22Sean Fennessey:How is it his fault that there's no service? What an idiot, dude. Because he made that stupid choice. No, you know, no chains. and so he's in this situation he shouldn't be in, you know? Like, we like Austin, obviously, but, you know, he's like a... I saw him the whole time as a silent movie character, as like a Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin guy who's like, we like you, we're rooting for you. You keep doing the wrong thing, dude, you know? Like, why did you do that? So I don't know how much you're thinking about the metatextual idea versus what's just going to make this movie fun. Just that, just what's going to be fun.

1:49:53I'm not smart enough to take all the metatextual in.

1:49:56Sean Fennessey:I don't think that that's true because you're thinking about theme in your movies. That is more my lane. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Can I ask about theme? Sure. I mean, I don't want to be telling the themes because it's such a lazy thing and I embarrassed myself with Barbarian, where that movie came out and I was so amazed that anyone cared about anything that I had to say about that movie. So I would tell anyone who was willing to listen what it means and what that means and why that's there. And then after I kind of came out of that season, I was really embarrassed. Why? Yeah, because that's not classy, A.

1:50:39And B, it's like I don't trust the work to speak for itself. It's like if it's really all there, then smart enough people should be able to check it out. I know. And other people should be able to not worry about it. And why do I have to be out in front of the movie teaching the movie? It's not good.

1:50:57Sean Fennessey:You're right. And yet there's a conflict there. One, for people like me, I'm just going to ask. Like, I'm just curious, you know? I just want to know because I'm alighted to something while watching it. When it's done, I'll tell you everything. But I don't want to be on a podcast being didactic about my own fucking zombie movie. But I think part of it is because there's this wonderful history in genre movies of smuggling in ideas. You know, it's not like a deep emotional drama. where it's very clear on the surface, like this is about the broken American family because in genre, it's like you can load a lot of stuff into it.

1:51:35But how lame would it be if George Romero right after Night of the Living Dead came out was like, did you see how it's about Vietnam and race? Did you get it? Like that is not cool. You know what I mean?

1:51:45Sean Fennessey:No, it's not cool, but we do, we sort of demand, well, why do we demand it? You know, it's like you put it there for a reason. I don't know. Is it demanded? I think a lot of like, Like, I don't know the answer to that. That's a good question. It's a good challenge to the work that you're doing and the work that I feel I'm forced to do in the aftermath of the work that you do. I do want to ask you about gore. Because in that conversation I was having with the mom on the playground yesterday who was asking me, can I go see it? I said, you know, are you into gore? Like, are you into a gory horror movie?

1:52:20Sean Fennessey:And I'm curious if you have like a philosophy about it. I don't know if I do. I mean, I don't like torture porn. You know, there are definitely movies that are where the gore, if the gore is the point, it's like I'm not interested at all. But I do love me some gore. I mean, there are, I think that irreversible, look, and I'm not going to get into the merits or the conversation about irreversible. Sure. But the fire extinguisher scene is, to me, like, put it on Mount Rushmore. That is like a true masterpiece of movie violence, and I'm obsessed with that. There's another movie that has a scene of gore that shocked me so incredibly deeply, and I tried to do that in Resident Evil.

1:53:08It's a movie that I bet you've never heard of called Los Bastardos. I don't know. Yeah, it's an incredible movie. And there's a scene, I was watching this just kind of by myself, and there's a scene where a character shoots a woman in the head with a shotgun and the gun is in the frame and her head explodes. And I remember it was like, I was like offended. It was so shocking. I was like, you can't do that. Like I thought I'd seen like a snuff film or something. It's not, you know, it's just a low budget genre movie, but it was like, it like broke me. And so it's another thing I ever shot where I was trying to get something like that in this.

1:53:49And so originally when she comes running in and her head goes, I had her, just a single on her. And then like a week later, I was like, guys, we have to go back and reshoot that because the trick is the gun has to be in the frame. You have to see the muzzle flash instantaneously with the head explosion. That's what makes the magic. And I should have learned that from Los Bastardos, which I haven't seen in over a decade. So maybe I could even be misremembering the language of that movie. But so we went back and I made sure that Austin was in the frame and the gun goes off and we redid it. Which is, by the way, never a fun conversation when you're like making a movie.

1:54:28You're like, hey, by the way, we're going to go back and reshoot that thing we already shot. But I've never regretted doing that. Yeah, but that moment plays so well. I saw it a second time. It matters. It plays so well. It matters, right? And I think if I hadn't done it, I would have short-changed one of the more fun moments of the whole movie.

1:54:46Sean Fennessey:Speaking of that sequence, one thing I think about with a lot of your films, all of them really, is how much speed matters. And how it feels like there's kind of an engine in characters. Like the chase at the end of weapons. Certainly the chase in Barbarian. There are these moments where people, not just running, but the ticking clock sensation that you're getting every time you're watching a moment and someone is in danger. I guess this is a little bit of a like, how do you do that in terms of editing and creating a sense of discomfort and this impending doom that is coming? I have no idea. I don't know.

1:55:20I haven't really thought about speed. So I'm not prepared to have any sort of insight into it. I just, I don't know. I mean, movies are made of movies. right? You know, I heard Cormac McCarthy in an interview say books are made of books. And I thought that was such a beautiful, like, that's so true. And if that's true of books, then it's definitely more so true of movies. And so I, I'm sure I'm just stealing what I've loved in other movies. You know, I mean, I, I am, you know, so, um, whatever momentum that is being, you know, harnessed is, is really, I'm only as good as everything I've seen.

1:55:56Sean Fennessey:When we talked to After Weapons, I played a game with you where I just said movie titles to you. And I was like, were you thinking of this? And you were like, yes, no, no, no, idiot, no. I don't know if I said that, but okay, all right. This one feels like it's more overt in a very gratifying way. Yeah. Can I throw a couple ideas? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like this. Just for the purposes of like kind of understanding not just what you were thinking of when you were making it, but like maybe how you direct actors or the tone that you're going for. Like to me... I'm going to give them all to you at once.

1:56:27Sean Fennessey:You can choose whatever ones you like. But specifically, this is what jumped out. After Hours, Die Hard, Fargo, Back to the Future, Evil Dead 2. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. All of them. Okay. Okay, so have you heard about like Austin's in my shorthand on this? No. Okay, so his baseline we kind of figured out was Marty McFly, right? This is exactly what I said on the show. And so we were like, okay, dude, your center of gravity is Marty McFly. All right? So it's the way you move. It's your level of courage, your nature. So, okay, McFly. Now, there are times where you're badass a little bit. We're going to tick you into the – so that's McClane.

1:57:07So we'll dial our McFly into the McClane. And then there are times where you have no dignity and you are shrieking like a little bitch and running in the hat, and that's McAllister, right? And so we would be dialing in. I think on this one I'm going to just go full McClane. I'd be like – I actually thought this might be McAllister. Wow. The three Macs. Yeah, I know. It's lucky for us. That would be, we would talk about that a lot. And so there's like scenes where we would try, do this one McClane, let's see how it feels. Okay, try it again. Try it McAllister. Let's see what this is like. Okay.

1:57:42So that really was our shorthand going into this.

1:57:46Sean Fennessey:This is a very different performance for Austin from Weapons. Weapons, especially going back and looking at it, is like a real transformation where I don't think I realized how much he had like lost weight. He's unrecognizable. Yeah, he looks just so different and now I feel like he's like a star so you don't it's not, it feels odd to see him in that way. Maybe just broadly like why did you want him for this? Like because you thought he could do the three max? Like what was the No, you know what it was is that we're shooting weapons. We're having just like an incredible time. You know, I mean honestly that movie was a really blessed movie where I, every chapter of that movie I I like fell in love with my actor and I, I love weapons like so much.

1:58:29Austin's chapter was, we just like clicked. We just clicked in a way that was like instant and really powerful. And I remember there's a, there's a scene in weapons where he's going around the back of the house and it's raining and he's trying to push his way through this chain link fence. And it's like, and he just like, he pushes and he like kind of squeezes through. and then the fence just kind of opens up naturally behind him, which he perfected. He could like magically make that happen every single take, which is like, I was like, this guy can do anything. Like he is his, there's a subroutine that has to run in an actor's mind when they're on camera, right?

1:59:09And that subroutine consists of like, of hitting my mark and waiting for this timing and where's the camera and how do I open up? It's all of the technical considerations that need to be present, right? But, you know, it needs to be running underneath the central program of inhabiting the truth of the situation in this character. Austin's subroutine is, like, so dialed in that I just recognized immediately, like, I'm dealing with a Ferrari here. Okay, so that's one thing. But then the way he was muttering at the gate as he came through, he was like, don't touch me, man. He did this thing, and I was dying laughing.

1:59:52I was like, Austin, come, come, come. And he would run over, and we'd watch playback and have a fit of laughter. And we'd do that again, and then he would do it again. And we were just like, there was a charge. And that whole chapter with him, we were just total pigs and shit. Just in love with what we were doing, feeling the magic. and I knew that, you know, when it was time to make Resident Evil, and I didn't say anything to him while we were shooting weapons, but I just knew, like, if this guy can play a thieving junkie and we all just want to take him home, put him in our pocket, and, like, you know, love him, like, then I am, like, totally playing with loaded dice if I can get him in Resident Evil because, like, we love him.

2:00:37And he's so good.

2:00:38Sean Fennessey:He's really wonderful. There's another rules question I'm curious about. The movie features dog zombies, child zombies, rat zombies, baby zombies. Oh, the rat zombies. So the stickers he looks at, did you put that together? No. So the stickers, that's everyone he kills. And the idea, okay, getting into theme, he's terrified of family change, and he sees this, and he's been annihilating his family. as we go, the rat, I'm just now realizing if I put a little mouse next to the dog. Anyway, whatever. I'm having this realization right now. I fucked it up. Well, I mean, maybe if you had a pet snake and then the mice you feed the snake, that brings you into the family unit.

2:01:28Sean Fennessey:Did you actively think about violating the rules of decency by having all these be like... Who gives a shit? Well, you've cited irreversible here in this conversation. I'm not that guy. That doesn't really occur to me. I mean, I enjoyed that, though. It did feel like it was sort of like, all bets are off. Like, when Chris and I talked about the movie on the show last week, he was like, oh, I'm a little worried this is going to turn into, like, some lone wolf and cub thing with the little girl. And was so relieved when he just blew that girl's head off, you know, that there was something very fun.

2:01:56That would be the lamest turn the movie could take if now it's, like, Brian, like, no, and they learn a lesson together. But that happens all the time. And then at the end, he says goodbye to her, and then he's like, I do want to be a dick. Like, fuck that movie. I would never want to be a dick.

2:02:10Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Yeah. Why is Brian so afraid of family and change? I mean... Okay.

2:02:20Sean Fennessey:I'm curious about your signatures. Hang on. What young man isn't? I agree. I agree. I talked to Amanda, my co-host, yesterday, and she said, this is a movie about how all guys are scared to have a child. Yes. And I said, well, that's probably true. Not totally true. It's also about blowing people's heads off. But I think the signatures thing is funny. So we saw like a clip of the movie months ago at CinemaCon. And I'm pretty sure that the shot of the woman racing towards the house was in whatever they showed us. Okay. And I was like, oh, Craig her shot. Okay. And how do you think about that? Like having moves that people identify now.

2:02:57Sean Fennessey:And then does that make you rethink how you do things? No. No. I mean, I think it's okay for any artist to have their personality in the work, you know. I don't want to ever get caught up in thinking about what – I would never want to have my output dictated by that sort of consideration. That's not healthy. I think the way I think. I visualize things the way I visualize them. And as long as I am not feeling stagnant or like I'm repeating myself, then I'm okay with it. If it feels like a motif, I'm okay with it. If it feels like I've run out of room, that's a problem. But I don't feel that way yet.

2:03:43Is there a particular kind of thing you haven't done yet that you want to do? Um, no. I mean, I'm doing what I want to do. The Flood is like, you know, Flood is going to be the most challenging movie, but I think it is going to be a movie that is going to push. I'm going to really push myself in terms of how I have, you know, characters and, and, and, and it's, you know, the drama of that movie, I think is, is, is me. like if this movie was me playing Sam Raimi then that it doesn't matter I don't want to talk about it too prematurely but it's just a different frontier for me so I'm excited for that one thing that I think is

2:04:27Sean Fennessey:really great about your movies is that they do feel like when they're over they're over like they do feel like mic drop movies and that's a bold act in an IP movie you know to say like that's it we're done like I'm not coming back and yet you keep making movies and people are like hey so what's the sequel and they want to give you a lot of money and they want you to make the sequel and then you get from this position what an amazing you're very lucky and very talented very fortunate but most great filmmakers I would venture to say all great filmmakers who make commercially appealing genre movies do eventually get drawn back in to their most beloved properties and I'm wondering like how you think about that because it seems like you've been pretty resistant to it thus far.

2:05:14Yeah, I just, I have more stories to tell that are different. And if I, if that's the case, then that's what it is. I have to, I have to go to my next, uh, love. And, um, the reason anything I do is good is because it comes from a place of love and joy. And if I were to double back and try and do something from a place of commercial concern, then it probably wouldn't be as good. And so I, that's it. That's the answer. You know, I am so in love with flood that there's no amount of money that would make me consider anything in front of that movie. Okay. You know what I mean? It's very honorable.

2:06:00Who knows on the other side of that movie, I may come crawling back Hey Barbarian prequel You know like I thought that would never happen But you know

2:06:08Sean Fennessey:You kind of already did it In Barbarian Did you not? Yeah I mean that movie First of all What a repulsive sequel You know That would have to You never know There's no world Where that would be You never know I do Okay Okay couple more for you When Curry Barker Was here in May He said I talked to Zach And he was really nice to me And he helped me And I was like, oh, that's cool. That's really sweet of him to say. He might have said it off mic, but I think he's already said it afterwards, so I don't think it really matters. And I know that you've talked to a couple of people who are older than you, who you really admire.

2:06:43And so I'm a little bit curious about the secret fraternity of mentorship.

2:06:49Sean Fennessey:How does that work? How do you get in touch with people? How do they get in touch with you? What responsibility do you feel to that? I am happy to talk to anybody I feel like that is coming to me with a real actual issue that I can help with. You know, if somebody is like, how do I get into the business? It's like, I'm, you know, but if somebody is like, I'm making a movie and I'm having an issue, I've got all the time in the world, you know. I think Curry is so special. And so I'm like, you know, I'm honored to be able to offer anything. anything. I also feel, it's so funny, I've only made three movies, dude.

2:07:27I've only made three movies. I don't feel like an elder statesman. I feel like I am still figuring myself out. I have a long way to go. But I also recognize that, you know, that's three more movies than a lot of other people have made. And so I have learned some stuff. I don't even know what I'm saying right now. I don't know. It meant the world to me to be able to talk to some of my heroes and have them give me time, to give me actual time and to like pay attention to my movie and, and offer, you know, solutions to problems that I wasn't aware of. You know, Jordan Peele helped me with Barbarian, which was like amazing.

2:08:00And, and, you know, I've talked to David Fincher helped me with weapons, which like, oh my God. Um, so of course I'm, I'm, I'm honored to pay that forward to other talented people.

2:08:13Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Um, do you think there'll ever be a time when you don't work in genre? I have no idea. Probably not because who knows? I would never want to say that now because I change. You know, everyone changes. But ever since I – it's funny. My mom sent me a text yesterday. She saw the movie. She said, you know, I'm so proud of you, Zach. You know, the little boy who drew bloody knives in church and it turned out okay. You know, and it's like this is who I've always been, you know. That's nice. I mean, I scared my mom a lot as a little kid. She'd be like, what's your favorite color? I'd be like, red and black.

2:08:51And she'd be like, Jesus Christ. I got in so much trouble with school because I would write horrible things, just to entertain myself and draw horrible things. That's how you get it out. Yeah. And to me, it's like there's not a cause for concern here. This is, yeah.

2:09:09Sean Fennessey:I think horror fans are the same way. We like these movies because we're like, we got to get this out. There's a primal interest in it. But it's not prurient. Like it's not dangerous. It's just something we're interested in. I'm a genuinely friendly, happy person. You know, I really am. And I don't really care why for whatever reason I'm obsessed with like horrible dark art. But I have always been. I'm no longer interested in the origin of that. I just, I like what I like. And I make what I make. And so, you know, if I never make a romantic comedy, I would give two shits. You know, I'm fine with this.

2:09:49Sean Fennessey:Wow. That's inspiring. Speaking of, we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? Do you still watch a lot of movies? Yeah. Because you're so movie literate and so comfortable talking about them in the process of making your movies. But some filmmakers, when they start making movies, especially in succession, they don't watch as much. I watch a lot. I mean, I do. I just am always interested in the process. So I want to know why they put the camera there. Why is that light there? You know, why does this edit suck? You know, so I feel like I learn more from watching mediocrity and bad movies sometimes.

2:10:25Just because I'm like, oh, that's why it doesn't work. You know, I still like good movies. There's not a lot of them, I feel like. The last thing I watched that I was really, you know, there's a movie on Shudder called Dead Mail. Have you seen Dead Mail? Oh, buddy. It's good.

2:10:39Sean Fennessey:you know you got a shutter movie past me which is pretty hard to do right dead mail is it mail is that like a couple years ago yeah it came out it came out like i think 2023 i want to say or four i don't know i feel like i can even see the the tile on the yeah on the service it was made by like these two teachers like i don't know if they're high school teachers or not i've emailed with them um but uh i mean they made it for like nothing what's the can you do a snapshot it's a true crime story that unfolds in a really interesting way. And I thought the protagonist was really cool. And I just, I really liked the movie a lot.

2:11:15I was like, you know, I troll Shudder. I start every Shudder movie. I don't finish 75 % of them. You and I are the same. Yes. I love what they're doing though. God bless them. Their service is very important. I will never end my subscription. But you know, it is doing a necessary thing, Shudder, that I think is wonderful. And so I give every Shudder movie a start. And when you find one that is like, holy shit, is this good? Yes, it is. Oh my God. It's great. So I thought Deadmail was good. Great pick. Perfect pick.

2:11:50Sean Fennessey:Zach, really good to see you in person. Thanks for doing this. Okay, I hope to come back when we do Flood. Flood, yes. And let's do that. Okay, just don't fuck it up. Don't fuck it up. I know, right? What if it sucks? I can't even come back. I think you'll be back. I think it'll be all right. Okay, cool. All right. Thanks, man. Thanks, Zach.

2:12:09Sean Fennessey:Okay, thanks to Zach. He's the man. Thanks to Adam Naiman, also the man. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, also the man, for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Lucas Cavanaugh, the man, for his production support. Later this week, bonus episode, me and Tracy Letts. Very excited. We're talking about Borman and the Devil, which is a new documentary about the making of The Exorcist 2, colon, Heretic, which is John Borman's much maligned sequel to William Friedkin's masterpiece and then we talked about movies about directors documentaries and scripted films that movie is available on VOD on the 22nd Tuesday so you can watch that listen to that episode and then later this week primetime I'm ready I'm ready as well you gonna thank the women here you thanked all the men I don't see any women here bye are women working on this show

2:13:04Thank you.