‘28 Years Later: The Bone Temple’ Is Gut-Ripping and Gut-Wrenching. Plus: Mona Fastvold on ‘The Testament of Ann Lee’!

19:14Sean Fennessey:Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point because it being years later and not days or months later, it gives it like an added sense of like acceptance around what has happened to this part of the world. We know that it's only really these British Isles, right? That are trapped in this way that the world at large, Europe at large has staved off the virus, but these people are stuck. Yeah, there's this funny thing happening where, you know, Kelson, the Fiennes character at one point says that he's starting to basically forget what life was like before the infection before the outbreak of the virus he's talking with the Jimmy Fingers character and he's like you're 8 so you probably don't remember here's what I remember and he's like I don't remember going to shops and he's like I remember having a personal computer but now big chunks of time are disappearing and on the flip side of that the experience of this film is it's being released just a matter of months after the original so you actually do have this sense of continuity it's just a great experience because you have the sense of continuity with the characters in the story you don't have to like teach yourself anything before going to it but it's just different enough and just it's got that new perspective from the cost of like okay well what if we shot it more like this and what if it felt more like that and what if really the infected were a tertiary worry.

20:35I mean, there's a couple of points here where some of the more accomplished killers in this movie treat infected running at them like, oh, who cares? And I'll just cut this person's throat.

20:45Sean Fennessey:It's like ninja warfare. Yeah, they're all samurais out there who have a ton of experience managing. And we see that, you know, there is this other group of people that you're alluding to that are in the film who are sort of just like native villagers who protect themselves and occasionally attempt to kind of hunt and explore the world at large. And they have way less experience, even 28 years later, way less ability to effectively kill these, these, you know, fast moving creatures. And that was obviously the innovation of the original film was that it felt like very novel and knew that the zombies were fast, but we're kind of like dispensed with that.

21:17Sean Fennessey:There's been so much zombie stuff in 28 years. We need to find other places to go. And I really like where Garland wanted to go. And there's, there's two tracks of it. And I think they're, they're obviously speaking to each other. There's the Kelsentracht, the sort of the healer, and then there's Jimmy Crystal and the Fingers and the sort of like rage and opportunity to pursue like a cult apparatus in the face of these kinds of tragedies and the way you can kind of compel people to join you when no one knows which way is up. Which one do you want to talk about first? Let's talk about Jimmy first.

21:49Sean Fennessey:Okay. I thought this was a fascinating characterization of somebody who I think you can kind of see in genre pieces across cinematic history where it's just like this um person who's taking advantage of like a particularly dire situation to create a cult around them and is saying like that they're the chosen person that they are the chosen one who's getting communications from the dark lord you got to do what i'm telling you whether it's david koresh or whatever these people who are like kind of these these incredibly central figures in this kind of story and then I just there's a couple of scenes with him in this movie where I just rather than being revolted by him and even though he is like an absolutely amazing villain I thought he was fascinating the conversation that he winds up having with Kelson is so good and so interesting and his sort of like only I can hear the devil's teachings because I am his chosen son and all the stuff that he's doing and Garland is not like shy about like obviously there There's a lot of echoes of contemporary leadership in our real world that he's talking about in this movie.

23:00But he's never too over the top with it. You know what I mean? I never thought it was too... Yeah, it's grounded. And I credit Garland, which is something I don't say very often on this podcast, both for the character is quite literally of this earth. And so, you know, he's like negotiating with the Kelson character and he's kind of like, here's my problem. And like, here's where I am with my dad. He hasn't taken on full cult of personality. And then the way that Jack O 'Connell plays him, even when he's in like full cult leader mode and giving all his speeches. It's it's weird. You know, it's a little it's he's trying to pump himself up.

23:45along with it, you know? Yeah, you can see a little bit of his kind of insecurity

23:48Sean Fennessey:and vulnerability just in flashes. Yes. Like, he is a charlatan and it's communicated to the audience, but it's not overt. Right. Because he is able to command his flock. Like, he really can get these people to do these awful things to innocence. And that is, like, that's the persuasive power of cult-like leadership. And the thing that unites the performance that Fiennes gives and the performance that O 'Connell gives is that, like, you could run that thing with 99 out of 100 actors and it would just be a disaster. Like if this didn't work, it would be almost unwatchable. Yes. And they both...

24:21Sean Fennessey:And it's hard to look at a lot of what they do. I mean, you've gotten a lot tougher over the years, but I saw you wincing in your seat a lot when we were watching this. Because it's really gnarly. Like you said, gnarly. Sometimes I'm just kind of like, you know, I'm looking elsewhere. I've trained myself to be like, okay, I understand what you're doing. And now I don't need to like see any more people being peeled. though I did find and I know this is like a horror movie convention a lot of the real moments of violence happen off screen like a lot of the knifings happen and like you cut away or like you know a hook or something goes in and I understand that you can't like film all of that always yes and like implication and that not sometimes not seeing things as scarier but so I did okay but yeah it was gnarly yeah I think the other thing too is that DaCosta's arc is fascinating and weird.

25:16Sean Fennessey:She's made she made a small Sundance indie and then she made a Candyman reboot and then she made a Marvel movie which is the lowest grossing Marvel movie She was pretty open about being an unpleasant experience. I clearly went into the blender and it doesn't seem like she got to make exactly the movie she wanted to make and then she just made this reimagining of Hedda Gobbler Hedda which is on Prime right now if people want to watch it it came out last year which I thought was interesting but particularly there's a sense of anything can happen, violent chaos in that movie, which is really just like a chamber piece at a party.

25:50Sean Fennessey:Sure, yeah. But it does seem like anybody could get shot in the head at any moment in that movie. And this movie has the same tool. Like it has the same strength where a character who you think is going to be with us for a long time could die at any moment. And there are real stakes against the figures that we're following. And because the movie kind of background spike a little bit, there is a real sense of unpredictability in it. The hallmark of these last two films for me has been a real shock at what is unfolding on screen. I think I went into the first film expecting it to be much more about Aaron Taylor-Johnson and Jodie Comer.

26:29I had no idea that this kid was going to be the hero of the film, and I had no idea that the movie was going to deviate from your more traditional us versus the infected narrative into this kind of like, almost like, you know, super cathartic ideas about grief and letting go and death and all this stuff. And in this film, I kind of just expected the Spike stuff to pick up. And so this idea that these two ideologies are basically on a collision course and those ideologies are as plain as day of science and reason versus faith or demagoguery, you know, and it's... To be able to do that, it's not even like Trojan horses it's like it's really like hiding your punches until they can be the most effective swings

27:14Sean Fennessey:yeah we should talk about probably the Kelson strain of this and how it intersects with the infected as well I don't mind saying I was watching the movie and I was like so this is Dr. Anthony Fauci that's who Dr. Kelson is like there's very clearly a like healer heal thyself narrative here and Kelson was introduced in the last film as potentially a threat a man gone mad who covers himself in iodine We assume it's blood. Yes, exactly. And he's building a giant bone temple. Yes, he literally built a bone temple. He is treating and clearing. You know, at the beginning of this film, he is, you know, clearing the sort of cartilage away from bones after he, you know, burns them up.

27:57Sean Fennessey:And it seems like he's a crazy person. But the film goes to great lengths to show us that he's still like a man of science and still studying and still trying to learn. and we watched in the last film him slowly building this relationship with the alpha samson who you know once again is just nude throughout the film this film is unafraid to show samson and in full um and he realizes that when he sort of um neutralizes him narcotizes him with his blow dart that samson is not just docile but like maybe there's something else going on behind the eyes that his humanity has been unlocked in some way.

28:35Yeah.

28:35Sean Fennessey:And it starts to get his wheels turning and he starts to think on, if not a cure, a kind of evolution of the virus. A treatment. Yes. And, you know, maybe a solution to this problem that is... Or say a vaccine. A vaccine of sorts. Yeah, of sorts. And Kelson is shown to be like a very sensible, sensitive, sincere person. it's not a cynical portrayal of a person like this at all and a lonely person too you know because he keeps he empathizes with the with Samson with the alpha but wants him to like speak as well you know and the music is woven in because he's like lost all contact with like other humans and so this is these are like his memories and he sings and dances and listens to the music a lot lots of Duran Duran yes because he wants like you know he's just looking for some sort of connection.

29:31So, and I think that it's not just that he's like practical and looking for the cure, but he's trying to cure himself in a way as well. Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's also like some really interesting stuff. So basically, I mean, we're allowed to be a little bit more detailed about how we're talking about it.

29:51Sean Fennessey:We've already spoiled a bunch of this movie if you don't want to hear any more. Go see the film. The treatment plan is essentially opiates. You know, he's giving the alpha, he's giving Samson morphine and after a few weeks or however long it's been that he's been treating him and that clearly Samson is regaining some elements of humanity if still unable to speak he's essentially running out of morphine supply in the United Kingdom and this is something that comes up a couple of times in the film where there's that commune that you were talking about of villagers are using spears like We are running out of the sort of man-made resources of the old world, the guns, the drugs, everything that we've kind of built up.

30:34And he's just kind of talking to himself, but talking to Samson. And he says, with the rate you're consuming this, we have about two more weeks or you can take the big trip. And I put you out and I put you to sleep and you go out in like a way. And he's like, but if you could just consent, like if you could just tell me that's okay. and he's just basically kind of saying that out loud to himself and as he's about to give this guy the shot Samson says moon which is you know a revelation but also kind of tragic because now this guy is obviously showing progress but they're running out of the medicine that they need to treat his psychosis essentially did you notice the poppies that showed up in the field at the very end of the movie you know what I didn't while Refines was dancing yeah there are red poppies throughout

31:23Sean Fennessey:the opiates yeah not unlike the Wizard of Oz just like Dr. Kelson the Wizard of Oz figure I I found this component of the movie to be what separated it from other things I think a lot of filmmakers can do we're gonna have crazy people peeling skin off and this will be like a fun time at the movies and a good January movie this the contrast between these two components and just utilizing Ray Fiennes who you know we sing his praises anytime he shows up in a movie the three of us love him he he might be the most daring and flexible post-movie star that we have. Like he has made so many different kinds of movies.

31:58Sean Fennessey:He can take on any kind of complex material. He doesn't have to be making the third and fourth 28 movies. Like that's, you could say this is very easily above his pay grade and he could just be making Shakespearean adaptations. But he fucking loves this shit, you know? Like he likes being Voldemort. He likes going into these worlds and he's so, so, so special in this movie because he's so free with his body. He's so unafraid. I mean, he's practically nude throughout the entire film. Covered in orange eye. He's covered in the paint. the paint and you know the eye black near the end of the film you know like you say he's so magical and musical with his his dance movements and the way that he kind of turns himself over to a character it just makes a movie like this so much better when you have someone who is so free yeah and then it the the long-term thinking to know that when jack o 'connell and ray fines finally get a big scene together where they're gonna be like essentially doing a piece of theater with a gorgeous backdrop of Northern England or whatever.

32:54I think so. Yeah. But these two guys are just going to be chewing scenery for five, six, seven minutes talking about their lives, how they've arrived at this point where they believe one thing or another, and where they kind of find themselves in this struggle where it's like, we're going to have to make some sort of arrangement or I'm going to kill you. But the contrast of their performances, O 'Connell initially doing grand gestures and his blonde box and he's like, I'm Jimmy, I'm the seven. And then he's like, continually comes down to the point where it's just like two guys talking on stools.

33:29Sean Fennessey:Well, yeah, because Kelson has disarmed him, right? He's disarmed him by asking him questions, by making him feel safe, by not posing a threat. Like, this is also someone who's lived in fear of death, living among the infected for 28 years. He's figured out ways to stay calm in the face of all this danger. Two really exciting actors. O 'Connell, is in the middle of quite a run. You know, I think you both were fairly early on Rogue Heroes. I was because of him. Yeah, I mean, I've loved him since Skins. Start Up. Yes, yeah. Start Up and 71 and all the great films that he's made in his early stretch.

34:06Sean Fennessey:But now if you look, if you go to 2022 when Rogue Heroes started and, you know, underrated in Ferrari, I think. The best part of Back to Black by far. Sinners last year as Remick. And now these two films. he's also fantastic in the North Water which is 21 which is Andrew Hayes miniseries that he made it's like Jack O 'Connell and Colin Farrell I mean I'll tell you who he reminded me of in this movie is Gary Oldman he's giving a Gary Oldman performance it is it feels like a little bit of his Dracula a little bit of his professional exactly that kind of like greasy slick malevolent figure yeah that there's something like you really don't want to cross him because things will go very very bad and he's just magnificent in this movie and he's a disgusting character.

34:51Sean Fennessey:I mean, he is vile, the things that he does and the way that he takes advantage of children, women and, you know, just innocence throughout the film but you kind of can't take your eyes off of him. I was blown away by him and I usually am. Like, I'm a huge fan of his but this is a really easy part to make completely over the top and ridiculous. It's not that much different than like John Malkovich in Con Air or name any like overqualified actor and like a peak villainy part, but he finds pathos in this guy, you know what I mean? And you really do, in the same way that Kelson is saying that he can't really remember a time before the infection, you start to get an idea of why Jimmy would be the way he is if he's eight years old and the first thing that he kind of remembers is his father leading a horde of infected to storm a church and kill an entire village.

35:41If that shapes your worldview, yeah, he's a con man, but I think he also believes the con. Were you out on Teletubbies? I mean, I remember I was babysitting when they were on, so I consumed them as like a 12-year-old. Was that dance that Jemima does? Yeah, it was very good. I mean, it is, that's a very funny, very specific and accurate inclusion that's over several films now, because aren't the little kids watching Teletubbies when there's like that horrible raid in the first? Yeah, it's very upset. Yeah, spot on. And they are really weird and in their own way, a sign of end times. Jack O 'Connell would be like, there's robots that have TVs in their tummies.

36:20And then he's watching on their tummies. And so on and so on. It was really, yeah. It's funny.

36:27Sean Fennessey:Yeah. This movie is like kind of a miracle. I wasn't sure that any of this stuff was going to work, these last two films. And I'm really kind of blown away by how good they are. And now, you know, this is a deep spoiler, but by the time we get to the end of this film, a long rumored thing that some thought would happen in the last film does actually come to pass in this movie which is that Cillian Murphy's character returns and he returns and we see that he is raising his daughter I guess that's his daughter he had with Naomi Harris yes and he's teaching her about history yeah and she's studying World War II yes and the the inter between World War I and World War II why the allies were more conciliatory and helpful in the post-World War II era rather than the post-World War I era.

37:17Which thematically, I think, is Garland's sort of saying, like, this will never work if every swing of the pendulum is about taking down the opposite side.

37:28Sean Fennessey:Yes. The more vindictive, the punishment in the aftermath. Which is, if you need an example of, like, I mean, I'm sure there are people who thought that was stupid, but I think that that's an example of why Alex Garland is really, really good, is that you can have a character sort of off half off screen for some of the scene discussing Churchill and how that he does. If those forget history are doomed to repeat it like from the kitchen. Yes. Like while he's making toast. That was a gasp and applaud moment in our screening as was probably the crescendo of the movie, which I guess I don't know if you want to talk about that.

38:04We should.

38:05Sean Fennessey:I mean, it's an amazing feat of filmmaking. So finds this character who has been set up to be Satan. by Jack O 'Connell's character. Yeah, he's standing in. Standing in for Satan. He's like, Jack O 'Connell's like, I need you to pretend to be the devil so that my minions continue to believe that I am in contact with the devil. And if you don't do that, I will kill you effectively. And so we already know Dr. Kelson's a bit of a showman and he conjures up this performance as the Dark Lord set to Iron Maiden's number of the beast. Gives, blows cocaine into Jimmy's faces. Is it cocaine? Do we know that?

38:39I think it was supposed to be him creating, He was like, he was mixing up coke or some sort of speed. Yeah.

38:45Sean Fennessey:And gives this kind of ravishing visual performance. And like I said, DaCosta and Bobbitt very free with the camera and like what kind of, it turns into a music video. And a very exciting and amusing music video seen through the eyes of the Jimmies who were baffled as to what they're watching. And then becoming enthralled. It concludes with this epic kind of fire dance that he does with these shoulder weights that are knocking the sparks loose from the fire inside. It's just it's an amazing set piece. I guess there is also a crucifixion that happens in the aftermath of that. It is a really dramatic and violent and fascinating conclusion.

39:20Sean Fennessey:You know, we have also seen that Samson has sort of become humanized and become a potential victim once again of the infected, even though he remains clearly the infected. Right. But yeah, I'm worried about his access to SSRIs. Because he was like, he got one. Listen, I saw the puppies. They were there. That wasn't a mistake. Can he piece it together? And you know, you also see Kelson like doing some, you know, longhand math and consulting some books in a way that suggests he's trying to make morphine again. Yes. I hope Samson's going to be okay. Well, he says he's like, I think that there is.

39:54He still absolutely wallops that entire train car of people. He does. He does. Or was infected. He goes back to the place where both, I believe, his child has been born, his zombie-human hybrid child has been born. Yes, from the previous film. And also, it turns out, the place where it looks like he was when the infection started, when the outbreak started. Just saying that people applauded in our screening for that fire dance. And then there was a gasp and a light round of applause for Cillian Murphy. I only mention that just because I think this might be the most creatively invigorating running franchise in movies right now.

40:28Um, and even the way that they construct the, the way that they tell a complete story and then do basically a two minute coda at the end of both of these past previous films is like kind of the way this stuff should work. It's like, there is another world out there. There is another story we're going to tell. It's not going to affect. We didn't stop telling our movie 35 minutes ago in order to set up some new problem. You know what I mean? I think it's pretty, it's pretty awesome.

40:57Sean Fennessey:I think part of my comfort with that is the idea that there's not going to be 10 more of these. That this was pitched as a trilogy, sold as a trilogy. Right. Garland wrote three scripts. That makes me more at ease with the structure of the story. I generally am a little bit dubious of here's a two-minute coda. Come back for the next one. It has to be done really well. When we walked out of 28 years later, we were like, listen, we really like Jack O 'Connell. and we'll go wherever he leads. But we were like, are we sure? It was a huge tonal show. And like, what's going on here? And let's talk about the rest of the movie.

41:38And this, you know, confirms both that coda and the strategy. There were people who were like, I cannot endorse this film as fully as I would like to because of the last scene. I also think like asking global, but especially American audiences to know who Jimmy Savile is and know like where the influences are coming from on this was a lot. I think by the time this movie comes out, people would either write about it or it's not really that necessary in this film because I think they come up with like their own kind of mythology and iconography. That's why I think it works

42:09Sean Fennessey:is if you understand the reference and you get the idea of sort of like a child predator and someone who appears to be friendly, but yeah, how's that? Great Coda with that, like closing note on the how's that as well. But if you don't get it, It still works. He still seems like a demon. Yeah, so really creepy. This coda is, I think, tonally more in line with the rest of the film. It actually, I mean, it doesn't just feel like a callback because Cillian Murphy is in it, but even the way that it's staged, that sort of like long lens final shot, it felt like the first film. It felt like 28 days later.

42:41And it brings back the theme, the sort of score from the first film. Which I would imagine

42:48Sean Fennessey:that there will be an attempt to kind of like reckon with and re-examine the first movie in this final installment. I mean, I imagine they go back to London. Perhaps. That would be exciting. As a cure possible. There's, look, I mean, the way to make this more practically and to make this more cheaply and thus make it more suitable for Sony is to keep it out in the hills and keep it rural and have five or six people running around in circles. But, you know, I mean, the cool thing about what this movie does is that, you know, it takes two major chess pieces off the board. So it's like, what's at stake?

43:21What are we, what is the end goal of this? Is it just about Spike becoming a man and becoming the kind of man that like, you know, you would hope he would become? Or is it about, we actually have Dr. Kelson's secret recipe to turn everyone back?

43:36Sean Fennessey:To be determined. Would you say more of like a hungry, like the Wolf, Rio, Girls on Film Duran Duran fan or more of like an ordinary world, like early 90s fan? I mean, definitely Rio, Girls on Film. Yeah. But you were getting into ordinary world, I noticed you know when that acoustic guitar hits yeah listen I am I appreciate I appreciate the entire oeuvre it was interesting to get a kid A needle drop which would be right up against when the infection is 02 or 01 or whatever you know so it's just right up right up against so he kind of stopped getting into new music Kelson roughly like 93 but he got brought back hung around for Radiohead Radiohead was still of interest pretty common I that song has now appeared in three films in the last five years.

44:24Yeah, well, it's just another catching up with us. We are in charge of everything now and the references. I just like,

44:31Sean Fennessey:we could have just done the national anthem. That would have been another way to... Oh, dun, dun, dun. You know, everything in its right place is like, we're good. We're good. Take a break. Take a break. I'm just really, I was blown away by this and I just can't believe that this is what's happening with this series of films. Let's take it, Let's do an ad hoc where he finds Hall of Fame. Okay. Absolutely. I don't know if there's a logical time to do this. I don't know if this would normally be an entire episode. I started trying to rough it out in my head last night, and I was like, this guy's got 25 essential performances.

45:03Sean Fennessey:Yeah. So I want your feedback. I want your thoughts. I got down to 10, but I couldn't figure out one of them, which one he should be. But I know that some are missing, but I got down to 10. Can we do Stone Cold Locks to start? Sure. Schindler's List. Yep. have to the English patient have to the Grand Budapest Hotel yes I think you have to do one of the Harry Potter films sure I don't know which one I don't remember which one either is there like a Voldemort flashback one is there one where he's like doing a bunch of different stuff no I mean it's but it's played by another actor because his face isn't okay as best I can tell I mean I would say probably just Deathly Hallows 2 since it's the final film and it features like the final confrontation so that's four do you think there are any more stone cold locks Conclave?

45:56Sean Fennessey:I thought about it he elevates that movie in a big way that's another example of something that could have seemed very I mean there's one more within the world of the big picture which is a bigger splash if we were doing it this is our podcast so that's six we'll say Conclave and we'll say a bigger splash I will throw out a couple so here's one of the things about him is that about five or six years into his career he just develops this ability to go from he can play the fifth on the call sheet to the first on the call sheet and he makes this big of an impact either way so in Bruges or in Hail Caesar he is able to make a crater in the film he steals both movies yeah he steals both movies and the same honestly I think he has like two minutes of screen time in The Hurt Locker and he's awesome in it.

46:50Sean Fennessey:So what do we do about that? That's part of why I found this to be challenging because like he's not essential to the Craig Bond films but I love when he shows up. He's great. You know, he lifts those movies when he pops up and he's a nice counterpoint to Craig. So you have Schindler's English Patient, A Harry Potter, Grand Budapest is four, Conclave, let's say, is five. Would you put 28 years later? And Bigger Splash is six. Six is Bigger Splash. Let's say Bone Temple is seven. Great. I agree. I'm with that. Yeah. This is a great performance. I think personally, like my favorite underrated performance by him, two of them, one is Strange Days.

47:25Sean Fennessey:I would have nominated Strange Days. It has a little bit of a different look than probably you're used to seeing from him. And the other one is Constant Gardner. Okay. Which is the Jala Carey adaptation with Rachel Weisz, which I think he's phenomenal in. So I am down with that. I think 10 would then have to be Quiz Show. I thought you, yeah, Quiz Show has to be in there. So then that's like, that's 10 right there, but that does not account for any of those super cameos that he's so good at. So we then basically... Yeah, there's no Mallory. No M. Yeah. There's no Hail Caesar. There's no... Burt Locker and Bruges.

48:01Sean Fennessey:Yeah. He's also brilliant as Francis Dollarhyde in Red Dragon which is a flawed movie but he's very good in that movie. No shots of Tom Noonan. It's hard for me to see it. I mean, I didn't even put up like the end of The Affair or whatever but that was important to me. Yeah, that's a good movie. Yeah. No, that's a really good film and he's really good in that. that movie's a little lost Made in Manhattan is not good he's not bad in it but that's it's I don't appreciate it's politics did not realize he played Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights I know and someone else I haven't seen this with Julia Binoche yeah I gotta watch this and then wait hold on is he in The Return as well is that okay so do you know what The Return is I do I actually never saw it I didn't either but a friend of mine just texted this is a retelling of The Odyssey so we're gonna have to see that yep what about The Prince of Egypt did you see the chorale did you see the chorale did I see the what the chorale the chorale I haven't seen it yet there's no E so I'm sorry for being an American that's about the World War II singing group right yes I haven't seen that yet that was heavily advertised in London I mean I definitely I'm gonna do like if I ever have a date of myself again like Nuremberg chorale back to back you know that we didn't say that's like I can definitely go up with 15 other things you could do with a date of yourself get your ears Next time I get the flu, you know.

49:18Okay. The Menu we didn't mention.

49:21Sean Fennessey:A huge hit. I know. A movie that also does not work without him. I like that movie. It's got some heavy detractors, but I'm a fan. Remember The Dig? When he was an archaeologist with Carey Mulligan? Was that a Netflix film? It was. I mean, it was 2021 also. So I needed that to be the English version that it wasn't. Is there anything in the deep British lore from the 80s that we're not thinking of? I mean, he, you know, he's, he's in Peter Greenway's The Baby of Macon. I can't say that I remember that. I, you know, Schindler's List was really a major breakthrough for him. I don't, I don't know about this Wuthering Heights.

49:55Sean Fennessey:I would like to see this. I mean, it's not screen, but I just thought I would mention. It's his film debut. You can find a lot of his, there's several of his works. His theater works is on, like online in various places, especially his collaborations with David Hare. Okay. What about Cronenberg's Spider? I think is on the list. Okay. The first film I ever reviewed for the Ithacan in college. Nice. The failed Avengers relaunch opposite Uma Thurman. Not the Avengers comic book characters. The British TV spy series. I remember that. And then what was the Kingsman that he was in? Was he in the prequel?

50:34The King's Man. The King's Man. Yes. From 2021. Is that the prequel one? Yes. Okay. What's he doing in that? he invents the Kingsman. Oh, yeah. That makes sense. He's like the guy

50:44Sean Fennessey:with the first suit shot. He also directed an adaptation of Coriolanus. Yeah. I remember it being pretty good. Really a war movie. Anything else? We did our 10 pretty easily. The 10 was pretty easy and we have like five to seven. Also check this out. Yeah. Any other thoughts? Do you think we'll get 28 years later the last year or whatever this time next year next summer no I think it's gonna be a little while Danny Boyle has a movie coming out at the end of this year so if Danny Boyle's making it I don't believe production has begun depends on probably how this movie does too I think it's tracking for less like 20 years later four days yeah so word of mouth will be good but I do think that there will be also the that was fucking brutal word of mouth as well coming out yes it's extremely violent and hard to take Yeah.

51:40Sean Fennessey:Times. I come out of this with just like I needed to cost the season tickets now. Interesting. Yeah. Big sign on. Just I think I get what she's going. You should watch Hedda. You should see what you think of that. No but I was just so so thrilled with what she did with this. She did. It's you know as I said before we began recording this story has good bones. It has really good bones. There we go. It is. It is. In a way I almost don't want Boyle to go back. I want to see another filmmaker's point of view because I think it could withstand another reimagining another visual but if you're gonna do Pillion Murphy yeah you got it and if there's gonna be some sort of conclusion to the story which I don't know I mean I imagine if you wrote it as a trilogy although knowing Alex Garland maybe he's like there's no fucking end this is the end like we are all infected you know that would be appropriate CR thank you yeah my pleasure we're gonna talk a little bit about Anne Lee but you wouldn't watch a film starring a woman so we're gonna ask you to move on and now my interview is for the festival

52:41Sean Fennessey:Okay, we're back. Before I talk to Mona Fastfield, I thought we should talk about The Testament of Anne Lee a little bit. So, you know, this film was co-written with Mona and Brady Corbet, just like The Brutalist. And it stars Amanda Seyfried, Thomasin McKenzie, Louis Pullman, Stacey Martin, Tim Blake Nelson, Christopher Abbott. It is a story I'd not heard anything about. I'd never heard of Anne Lee. It spans 18th century England and America. This visionary spiritual leader, Anne Lee, comes along, rises from obscurity. She forges this radical movement called the Shakers, inspired by the Quaker movement.

53:15Sean Fennessey:She suffers significant personal tragedy and in the wake of that, develops this concept of celibacy colliding with a kind of convulsive musical reckoning with God. And the film portrays her struggles and also her brilliance and her radiance and features like a wildly transformative performance by Amanda Seyfried. I know you first saw it out of Venice. I did. And so I really liked it then. Yeah, I really liked it. And I knew nothing about it besides, you know, what was printed in the in the programs. And I also knew nothing about the shakers. And I didn't even know, as it's explained fairly early in the film, that they're called shakers or at least in the context of them they're called shakers because they were shaking Quakers so I didn't even know to anticipate the movement and the choreography and certainly the music that was that is a major part of this because in addition to it being an examination of the founding of a religious spiritual movement and also Fast Fold and Corbe's sequel or next installment of the cult of personality and self-belief and hatred in the wake of personal tragedy.

54:48It is also like a musical and it has, and with a lot of dancing as well and not your traditional like theater, like jazz hands, really, really memorable movement. And that is actually what stood out to me the most. I loved it. I loved the choreography and the way that it incorporates the traditional shaker music and the very weird dancing and literalizes that shaking Quaker. It surprised me. I hadn't seen anything like it.

55:21Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's a cool act of not just synthesis, but synchronization. Like the choreography and the music, which is written with Daniel Blumberg, fits the filmmaking style. The movie, the camera moves and the story moves the way that the shakers move. And particularly during these ecstatic dance sequences, you know, singing sequences, you can kind of feel how you can get wrapped up in this movement, which on its face is quite severe and quite strange. Yes. A very alien, I think, to a 21st century sensibility. But there's something about the kind of emotional hysteria of this movie that is very transfixing.

56:01Sean Fennessey:And Fastfold does not wink. She never is like, isn't this funny or weird? She's, it's just a portrait, which I think is a really, really good choice. And I feel like in these times, whenever you're trying to tell a story about a person like this, it's very, and you know, The Brutalist got kind of held to task for this as well, but it's something that I liked about that movie also, which is that this is a person who transformed their lives and attempted to heal a deep wound by focusing on construction and imagination and community. Like those things can be, can help heal. And I appreciate it. The movie is a little ridiculous.

56:40Sean Fennessey:Like you will, as you're watching it, you'll be like, this is so strange. And the sequences and when everyone, like in the back corner of the frame and the way that cameras like up people's noses as they're having these ecstatic, it is, there is something uncomfortable about it that purposefully, right? That it is supposed to communicate how desperate and consuming the nature of this expression was. People trying to work themselves out of something and into something else. I saw more walkouts for this in Venice than any other film. I mean, the Italians were just like, absolutely not. Yeah, I think there's also a significant amount of very raw portrayals of childbirth and then infant death in the movie.

57:30Sean Fennessey:that is very severe, very severe. And I think will alienate people. Well, see also Hamnet, you know? It's true. I mean, it's a running theme in the films of 2025. But I think also, you know, that's obviously a kind of inspiration point for Anne Lee's thinking about how she sees the world. She's also been subject to physical abuse by her family and by her partner. She has this very tenuous relationship to sex. And that tenuous relationship leads to some of this thinking about celibacy and then the way in which she's rejected by her partner in life because of that. I mean, these are really thorny ideas.

58:04Sean Fennessey:And they seem old-fashioned or alien. But the movie doesn't do that kind of like cheap, this is her trauma. Right. And now she's healed. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we were talking about both the brutalists in this movie as a response to personal trauma. And really, honestly, to rape in both cases. and that these people are trying to find some sort of healing is very different than finding healing. Exactly, exactly. And they're trying to work things out, but I wouldn't say that either film has a happy ending. At least my interpretation of that. I will say though, without spoiling it, I found that the way that Anne Lee is portrayed at the end of the film is really interesting and mature and complicated and kind of had me thinking about how I want my life to end and sort of like what you want to how you want to feel about yourself and what you've done and how you see the world when your time has come God to your work from Amanda Seyfried yeah I think just one of the greats truly an amazing performer this movie is asking so much of her I could not think of another movie that was asking so much of a performer because she has to have a clear sense of this spiritual ideology she has to represent a fearless leader an ecstatic devotion in this conceit.

59:24Sean Fennessey:She has to sing. She has to dance. She has to lead in singing and dancing. She's not just participating, but she is at the center of the frame through all these experiences. Plus the prosthetics involved in those childbirth sequences, the amount of violence that this character endures, the crazy set pieces, the epic ship journey that her character takes. Right. It's an epic film. And as you said, like, Fastfold doesn't wink and she does not either. And we have seen that Amanda Seyfried can wink when she needs to. The housemate, and that is what the housemate is for, and she's perfect in it. Yes.

59:59But there is a sincerity to what she does in all of this that's pretty amazing. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step-by-step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts, and let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit TaxAct.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See TaxAct.com for details.

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1:01:33Sean Fennessey:It's a very unusual film. I could not really think of too many other movies. Which is cool. It is cool. I think that's part of the reason why. And I think that your general audience is going to be made a little uncomfortable by this movie. Or bored. in some ways. And I don't know that it has necessarily the same, that uplift in the first half of The Brutalist, you know, that sort of like, Right, there's no ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Very showy. Yes, exactly. That triumphal quality. This movie is different. I would say that it ends in a similar way to the way that the previous, The Brutalist begins. But the movie does feel like a little bit of splitting the atom between Vox Lux and The Brutalist to me.

1:02:09Sean Fennessey:Yeah. You know, in terms of like, here's how music and performance collides with artistry, pain, spirituality, history. It's a very cool project they have going on. I like what they're up to. I am really into it. I think this, to me, I clicked with this film the most of the three. And, you know, to anyone who has listened to what we're talking about and is like, no thanks, I was skeptical walking in. It was not like my most anticipated of the Venice Film Festival. And it really did win me over. I think Mona is also an amazing advocate for the movie. So I highly recommend people listen to the conversation with her.

1:02:48Sean Fennessey:It's not even really, it's not the kind of movie that can be spoiled. There's a Wikipedia page that details Anne Lee's life. It is a speculative portrait, as she points out. She is no longer alive. I just want to let everyone know. But I do think that, first of all, the music is easy to return to. I've started listening to it on Spotify. Maybe new writing music for me. You know, Daniel Blumberg, who made that bop bop bop bop moment in The Brutalist, also makes the music here. I can't say I'm swayed to explore the Shakers ideology any further. It's not something that really... We've been talking about this.

1:03:20I'm good on spirituality. Okay. I got my own. What could I discover?

1:03:24Sean Fennessey:What could I pursue? The Shakers also made furniture, right? They're making... Yeah, yeah, yeah. The furniture is lovely. I think that's also something Amanda Seyfried and Louis Pullman learned to do is they learned to make this furniture. Which is really cool. Yeah. Downright Daniel Day-Lewis-esque. Yeah. And I like the furniture, but maybe I'll just admire that from afar. 18th century would have been a tough time to live. Yeah. Think about how bad it smelled. You ever think about that? I think about that all the time. But you wouldn't know any different because there's no deodorant. That's true.

1:03:53But it's not just like bodily smell, you know, like sewage, like food waste, all of these sorts of things. But you wouldn't know any different. I spend a lot of time thinking about how dehydrated I would be and how terrible everything would smell.

1:04:06Sean Fennessey:But you would have God inside you, unlike now, in which you live in a godless world. I find God all around me every day. Do you? Yeah. While shopping. In the furniture. Okay. Well, that's an advocacy for the movie. This is more advocacy for Mona Fastfold. Let's go to my conversation with her right now.

1:04:25Sean Fennessey:Mona Fastfold here for the first time. Thank you for being here. I'm very excited to talk to you about this movie. There are some superficial similarities between The Brutalist and The Testament of Anne Lee. So I was hoping you could walk me through the development, the discovery of Anne Lee's life for you and kind of when this movie really first started. Well, so we wrote it before we shot. But yes, I didn't really think about the similarities until I was in the edit. While I was editing The Testament of Anne Lee, I was also promoting and putting out The Brutalist with Brady and just talking about The Brutalist every day while, you know, when you're in that really, that space when you're editing and you're just analyzing the work that you've done.

1:05:11And all of a sudden, we started seeing all of these similarities and seeing sort of how the pictures both spoke to one another. They're both immigrating to America. They're both trying to do something impossible, perhaps unwanted, of a guard in many ways, philosophically, artistically, both of these characters. But they're very different characters. So it was an interesting kind of, all of a sudden it was interesting looking at it as a companion piece. But we didn't think about that at all when we started, when we were writing it. We had written The Brutalist and I was fascinated by The Shakers.

1:05:52I came across it when I was doing research on the world to come, which takes place in 1856. And I was looking, I was actually looking for him to use in the film. And I was looking at something that would date further back than 1856, something that could have been passed down to them from their mothers or something like that. So I started just looking at hymns from that. That also takes place in Massachusetts and upstate New York. So I was looking at that area and I was reading about the hymns and history of them. And I came across this one specific song that I really fell in love with called Pretty Mother's Home.

1:06:32That's in the film as well. that song by this beautiful actor and singer, Lark White, and Josephine Foster as well sings on that. And I started reading about it, and that led me to The Shakers and to Mother Anne Lee. And I thought it was just a fascinating story, a fascinating historical figure. She kept surprising me as I was learning more about her. It was a lot of detective work that went into learning about her, because there's not that much that has been written about her. And, you know, there's one, and the word was a great biography. But that one, that's the only one that was available.

1:07:09Everything else was more or less out of print. And you had to sort of, yeah, go down, go digging. But as I learned more about her, I was really, I was just fascinated. I was surprised by how radical she was, her ideas for, you know, justice, equality, and how sort of what a feminist she was. And then there's sort of this aspect of the religion that is that they worship through ecstatic song and dance, which I thought was so cinematic and interesting. It's a forced musical. It has to be a musical because that's how they live their life. They sort of almost live their life like a musical early on.

1:07:51So all those aspects I just felt were really just made for an interesting project to dedicate. years and years of my life too.

1:07:58Sean Fennessey:I want to hear about those years. I saw you describe it as a speculative retelling of her life, which I think is a really interesting phrase. And whenever there's a biopic, for lack of a better word, there is this line between truth of a person's life and what makes a kind of coherent narrative film. So how did you think about that, especially since there's maybe not as much material as you would have liked to even just use as source when you were writing the film? Well, there's definitely blanks that has to be filled in. There's definitely things that you have to imagine. But it's based on a lot of research.

1:08:33It is a lot of information, but speculative, yes, because what's written down as truths are, it's not written down by Anne Lee herself because she was illiterate. It is written down by her witnesses, much like the Bible. So did it really happen this way or did it happen another way? It's their interpretation of these events. And then again, it's ours, interpretation of them. And so I sat down, I did as much research as I could, and I felt like the story and the structure of the story was very much there. And then when I sat down to write it with Brady, for us it was really, okay, now you write from intuition because now this becomes a dialogue between us and this material and us and this historical figure, then that's sort of, that's where the film lives for me in that conversation between the filmmaker and the historical figure or the historical events they were portraying.

1:09:37So therefore, you know, it's not a straight biopic. I'm not trying to say, oh, this is exactly what happened, but it's more, this is my conversation with what happened.

1:09:48Sean Fennessey:I asked Brady a somewhat similar question around The Brutalist, which was that I felt like that film and this film, the drive and ambition and the sort of like the commitment devotion to the belief and the process of what those two characters are doing, it does map kind of neatly onto the life of an independent filmmaker. And like, do you see a connection, like a close personal connection between what you do and your work and what Anne Lee stood for, how she did it, how she pursued it? Like, is there a match there? Yeah, I think that, you know, I think that these, both of these stories yes yes they they do it is for us my personal sort of connection to the story is of course you know tied to what is it that drives you what is this faith that drives you to try and create impossible you know things like it it feels impossible to make these movies um down to the very end in many ways even putting them out into the world and like finding a great distributor even when you've made it like you know it's so hard it's so challenging and cons you have so many no's and you have so many shut doors over and over and over again um but then you know with this project and with the brutalists we have a tight-knit group of people that we're working so closely with and that just stands you know together with us and we you know and we'll just do anything it takes to to make it happen so yes there's like there's definitely parallels in that.

1:11:16And I'm sure there's that, you know, that part that's that journey of that struggle is something, you know, I guess we keep returning to. But I think also that defiance is appealing to me because there's a part of me that I guess when nobody wants it, I still will not stop making the movie. I won't say, okay, well, I guess no one, no one wants to finance this. My Shaker musical, I don't know why, but I don't want to keep going. Why do you think that is?

1:11:42Sean Fennessey:Why do you feel like you, when someone says no, that almost empowers you more to keep going? Because I believe in the story so much. So, so much. I do. If not, I wouldn't be making it. If not, I wouldn't dedicate years of my life to it. And I don't know why I believe in it, but I do. I mean, I just do. You have, it's a bit of a, and that's, I guess, the kind of faith aspect. I'm not religious. I wasn't raised in a religious household. But I am interested in faith. And I do think, like, what is it that drives you to be so uncomfortable all the time as well? You know, it's hard. It's hard, you know, and you're just you're pushing yourself to the very limit to make something that you believe in, that the world is also telling you maybe.

1:12:25No, thanks. We're good. We're good on this. and then of course you know like I mean the wonderful thing is that I think that if you do make something that's really singular and very precise and specific then there usually is an appetite for it so because of the specific specificity of it I think at least that's what I seek out something that's just like one vision really clear precise

1:12:47Sean Fennessey:that is definitely how I felt watching it and I do feel like I couldn't I'm fond of comparing movies to other movies that's something that cinephiles do non-stop all the time but there are there's not a lot of strong comparisons that can be made because of the structure, because of the approach that you take in telling the story, that sort of forced musical that you described. I love that phrase. But one thing I wanted to ask you about is that the sequence of events of her life at times are dark and also absurd. And the idea of a forced musical is kind of absurd on its face, but the tone of the film is very straight.

1:13:18Sean Fennessey:You do not lean into irony. There's no wink in the film whatsoever. There are some humorous moments, but not much. And holding that tone of seriousness, like in our society now can sometimes be considered a negative, but you really make it work despite or in part because of all of these choices. So like, I was wondering if you could just talk about the decision on the tone of the film and how you wanted it to go. It was so important to me to stay right in that space. And it was very hard because it's easy to make fun of her. It's easy to debunk the myths of her. That's the easy route. The hard route is to take her seriously and to treat her with respect.

1:14:00It's more difficult, I think. And it felt more radical in a way. And it almost felt more radical for me in a way too. This is the most traditional story structure that we've ever written for me and Brady. It's like a three-acting. Yeah, it's linear. It's linear and all that. So of course there's things in the film. But I knew that the filmmaking was going to be be radical and I knew that with the movement and the and the music and the editorial pattern and and I knew that that was going to bring that in so I kind of I wanted that structure to be a bit more yeah to be a bit more linear like a cradle to grave story and also felt like treating her with respect by doing that I wanted this I wanted to have this to see this is her life this is not just this little part of her life or this little one idea about her.

1:14:54This is her entire life and it was grand. And here's a grand gesture to celebrate that or to not even celebrate it, just even to look at it. But I also think because when I began to research her and I had moments where I thought, oh, when am I going to feel, when am I going to be like, oh, what a charlatan? You like that kind of idea because I think that's the relationship that I have to a lot of stories about cult leaders or other religious leaders or even political leaders, like people who are driven by ego or personal gain or who are manipulating and leading from fear. And then through and through reading about Anne Lee, I just discovered that she was always just kind of leading from this place of love.

1:15:44And it was never about her and it was never about her ego. And it was always just about trying to create safe space where people could worship in a different way. And where they could worship through creating objects or art, drawings, paintings, music, architecture, like all these things. It just felt like this very, it was surprising how sort of pure and full of love and caring their beliefs were and how radical they were. And I just, I wanted to, I wanted the audience to make up their own mind as they went through the story. I couldn't, you know, go full, couldn't join the Shakers. But I couldn't become a preacher with her.

1:16:30But I certainly wanted to create the space where you could just make up your own mind and maybe change your mind throughout and have different thoughts and feelings about her like I did when I was researching her.

1:16:41Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I was thinking about this revisiting the movie last night. Is this movie a celebration or just a portrait? And you kind of hinted at that in that answer too. A little bit of both. Yeah. Hopefully. Hopefully. It can be both. I think you can celebrate someone without agreeing with them completely as well. Also, she's a portrait of her time. Arguing for celibacy and dissolving of marriages at that time, it was her only way to gain autonomy as a woman. It was the only way to say, okay, there is no husbands and wives because husbands and wives are not equal. As a wife, you're your husband's property.

1:17:21But brothers and sisters are equal, so that's what we're going to be. And that's how we are going to. And what is the female figure of authority? A mother. Everyone respects their mother. I will be a mother. I will be a leader as a mother. And so using these sort of different ideas to create autonomy and to sort of find a place where she could be a leader, I think, is at that time, I understand.

1:17:44Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's interesting because she's not messianic, right? She's like a community stirrer, you know? Yeah. There's a difference between the cult leaders that you're talking about, too. I think so too. And I think it's that lack of ego. And I think that is also something that's really connected to motherhood in a way, where you're like, I am just here. I'm living for my children. I'm like, I will move mountains to protect and love my children. And that power comes from that intense, overwhelming feeling of love. I'm curious about the conception and the actual kind of building out of the execution of the movie.

1:18:22So I know that the scripts are usually

1:18:24Sean Fennessey:pretty detailed in terms of what you're going to shoot and how you're going to shoot it. But I don't, in terms of choreography and song and this, that movement in the editing style that you described, are you writing through all of that? Are you saying like, we're going to see in these quick cutting moments, this kind of like euphoric experience of being inside of this religion or this sect yeah yeah for sure i mean for for example beautiful treasures is described you know as as a serious as a movement piece you're you're you're you're moving through this stance or movement sequence where she's with all the circular spinning movements that and then you have scenes and moments that intercut with that um with all of these births and and losses and the sexuality as well um so that's that's written out as so like this is here's nine years of her life that we see through this one piece of movement and song do the songs and choreography exist before you're writing the script no uh i wrote this brady and i wrote the script first and then i started working with daniel right away and celia shortly thereafter um daniel first because we would give celia music um and demos to work with as well um so um daniel Lumberg and I would we start started talking the first thing we dove into was um the very first song the woman clothed by the sun which was like our first true exploration of what this what the music and the score and the songs could be be like and that's that's an original piece that's based um on shaker um on shaker text um and and that was the first thing we were talking about was like We wanted to use bells as the only instrument to begin with, and then breathwork and percussion as part of the movement.

1:20:20So using all of the sounds that you hear when you're like the slaps and the hits, even down to like I'm the finger moving across the table, like all of those sounds just really being a big part of the music. And it's very important to me. I spoke to Daniel and Steve, our wonderful mixer as well, about this, that there's never going to be a separation between the worlds that we are in and the music. It's not going to be like a typical musical where the diegetic world dies out and the music overtakes. I want the world to be as present, if not even more, within the music. so we started diving into different kind of shaker hymns and and into the shaker music tradition and we knew that we wanted to use a lot of their traditional hymns and then and then writing something that was original a few pieces that were original as well but not until after we really had understood their musical tradition and then again the same as you do with research you try and understand their tradition and then you make it we make it your own.

1:21:28I wanted there to be Daniel's conversation with the Shaker tradition. And so I wanted there to be a lot of Daniel in there as well. And the same with Celia as well. It's like I was showing her all of the research. I had very specific images and ideas of things I wanted to do movement-wise that was based on Shaker drawings and paintings and some dance annotation as well that they had that have been found in their archives. But beyond that, I also wanted it to be Celia's, I wanted Celia's choreography as well and her language to be brought in and combine that with the research as well.

1:22:05Sean Fennessey:So I saw the film a second time yesterday with my wife and I said, what would you like to know about the making of this movie? Because she was kind of like, I've not seen a film like this before. And she said, I have to assume that the person who made it has a background in dance, but I actually didn't know if you did. And then you sat down and you said, Did you study as a ballerina? Did you study ballet? Yes, I danced from when I was four years old until I was 18. Then I had a back injury, so I stopped dancing. But yes, I danced for many, many years. But it's like a film that understands dance.

1:22:36But the movement is such a big part of how I work as a director. It's really, even though I haven't, I mean, I used to direct music videos when I started out. But for me, the camera movement and the performers movement, the relationship between those two is always choreography. It's always a dance for me. Finding that right rhythm, finding that correct rhythm. Like if you're finding the edit with movement and having movement always be guiding your edit as well is just such a big part of it. So for me, this is just like a continued exploration of that. just very, very exciting and fun to work with.

1:23:20And Celia, my choreographer, we've known each other for almost 20 years. We have such a long history, so we have a really lovely shorthand. And I would have my cinematographer and our camera operator as well would come in in the dance studio and work with us during rehearsals early on. Even we were doing early workshops with Amanda and with our 25 dancers. And so they come in so that I can start working not just with adjusting the choreography, but also adjusting the camera movement and really working then with them and saying, I want you guys to be here with your team and move in this way. And then work with Celia and say, now can you adjust 200 people or pull out 25?

1:24:12to make room for us because this is where I want the movement to be. So it's really about everyone understanding that language together and practicing. I love how they fit together.

1:24:22Sean Fennessey:It's gorgeous. And you can see the intentionality with the way that the camera's moving around this big world that you've made. It's really quite impressive. I know you guys have talked about this a lot over the years, but you make these what seem like extraordinary scaled movies at lower budgets. Yep. Independently. Yep. You know, I know people are asking you about the ship, but the ship is one of those things where I'm like, I just don't know where did that ship come from? How did you pull this off for a quote unquote smaller film? But even just the period costume and the sense of being out in the world and immigrating to a new country and kind of like transforming the environment that they're in from one segment of the film to another.

1:25:04Sean Fennessey:I don't really understand it. What little I understand about how you finance a film. So like, can you talk a little bit about doing it for this film? Yeah, I mean, so, you know, it's out of necessity that we want, like, we want to tell these kind of, we want to tell an epic grand story, and then we do make independent films, and the stories are quite radical. So it's just kind of this is what it is. It's hard to do it, obviously. It's challenging. But part of me also, I'm excited by the challenge because it just inspires creative solutions. so um one of the things that i did on this film it's new to this film is that i um we brought back a traditional matte painter um so we would i would shoot for example the ship when the ship is docked i shot we i found the ship in sweden the only tall ship that was available in the world that we luckily were allowed to shoot at so that's a real ship um and when that we and i shot that ship docked in that wide shot.

1:26:14And then I had this wonderful man, Lito, he hand painted the surroundings. And then we shoot that on film and we scan that back in. And then with our VFX company, we'd marry the two images. And then I add a little bit of movement, a tiny bit of VFX, like some birds and some humans and some animals to it. And some more movements to the sails. So this is a combination of old and a new technique, which I really enjoy. There's a slightly like slightly artificial um feel to it or very but it's very painterly i i couldn't afford to do massive cg builds like you know like you would do with a period piece now if you have all

1:26:54Sean Fennessey:the money in the world but it's what you've done is better i mean i for i for me but i just for this movie i just really prefer this look for it like this feel to it it feels organic it's handmade everything in the movie is handmade it there's so much craftsmanship and in the film that is you know like down to us finding shaker blueprints and and building in their style and learn amanda and lewis and everyone learning woodworking from the interpreters at the hancock shaker village like a wood joinery and making pegs and it's just we we all just became so obsessed with the craftsmanship and so even just bringing back lee so lee took would he would paint you know all of our little set extensions so we would you know and i would work with my cinematographer and my production designer all the way from pre-production into end of post-production with my cinematographer joining every conversation with Lee and saying, listen, I think we need to adjust the light slightly here so it matches what we shot.

1:27:56Or there's a bow to the lens that we need to recreate at the top corner here. Or my production designer would say, oh no, this windowsill right there is a little bit off in the period and we shouldn't you know just i mean we just we could go on forever we we just kept going until it was like pencils down we're just obsessing of these details and but it was really wonderful because we you know i wanted the film to feel like you like crawled into a painting and by bringing back you know lee and his his way of working i really felt like it was evoking the past but then adding in our collaboration with the vfx company it's you bringing in a little bit of the future.

1:28:38It's an exciting place to be at, I think.

1:28:40Sean Fennessey:That's so interesting. I was very randomly on the Universal Studios lot tour recently with my four-year-old and the tour is like just a series of rides now, except for one thing, there is this tank that has a giant blue wall. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but they've shot many films in front of this giant blue wall, kind of representing in a similar fashion using that style to create different environments. But now it's just like a stop on a tour. It's not something that studios use anymore. They don't use that wall. yeah because some of the best movies ever made use this incredible tool that you built that still stands yeah so it's very cool that you've done that it's exciting to do and it's exciting to bring back those techniques but my thought around doing it on a small budget is also that they you know they filmmakers used to do figure it out somehow before we even had these other extraordinary modern tools um so it's it's like there must be a way like how do they do it how do they move you know cameras around like that you know the boat we i couldn't afford um a big enough crane to shoot the overhead shots on the boat so we built an arm and we rigged it off the rain tower it was crazy but it worked and it was beautiful and um you know it's it's it's a lot of course it's a lot of like if you you know the boat there was only a few angles that i could shoot on it for the for the exteriors for it to work and i had to also have the sales low um up in order to for it to work as well so it's just like all of these things that really had to come together and you just you know you're up you know it's till four in the morning trying to figure out how to get a bunch of people from belgium to come and the only people in the world who can rig these sales you know things like that where you just like you just have like you know terrible heartburn and you want to, you know, just you're terrified that it's not going to all come together.

1:30:29So I would love to have a little bit more security in my life, but when it comes to these things, but also, you know, it's somehow we, you know, you figure out ways to make it work and yeah, that's.

1:30:41Sean Fennessey:You get called audacious on the flip side of it. So there's a phrase in the film that popped out to me the second time I saw it that appears a couple of times that I just wanted to hear you talk about where it came from, which was exteriorized rottenness. I was like, I've not heard those words together in that way before. And they recur in the film and felt like a very modern condition and not a 17th or 18th century condition. It's a quote from their testament. It's just something that they and from the Bible there again. So it is an old term. I just thought it was so such a wonderful description of like like you know just like opening it all up and just letting it all out and and it's just it's just such a yeah it's wonderful but I can't take credit for it it's from their testament this is very powerful very resonant yeah I do want to hear a little bit about the collaboration with Amanda I know you guys have known each other for a long time you've worked together previously this seems like a hard job being Anne Lee This seemed like a very hard, like a challenging performance for a variety of reasons.

1:31:55Sean Fennessey:Like there's a huge emotional swings in terms of what she has to portray. I read a bit about some of the prosthetics that you guys talked about during the birthing sequences, which seemed pretty extreme. Obviously, choreography, performance, singing, woodworking. So it's a full plate of work. Sounds like you were pretty direct about what would be expected of her when you guys were talking about doing it. But I'd like to hear you just kind of talk about the collaboration and what was challenging, what was easy about doing it together, what she was adept at, what she wasn't as adept at maybe that she had to learn.

1:32:28I mean, she had to learn everything. I mean, she's a great singer and she's a great mover and she's a great actress. But, you know, this is a difficult accent. So she started immediately. She started a year in advance working on it. She's such a hard worker, Amanda. she's really throws, she gives everything when she's doing something. She doesn't do something halfway. Like that's just not who she is. And I knew that about her and I knew that she was going to give me everything because we had, we had great conversations about this character very early on about this project. And, and we had a really wonderful experience working together and directing her was easy for me.

1:33:13Sometimes you have to take, spend a lot of time trying to find the key into a performer i like that i like trying and finding it and then all of a sudden you're like okay something if it doesn't click right away and you it's my job to really try and find what is it how can i help you best as your first the first viewer the first moviegoer here watching you perform how can i how can i help you and guide you um and then but with amanda for you know it It was just very easy immediately. We spoke the same language. So when we saw, yeah, she had to. So I didn't know that she was going to give me this much time.

1:33:53It was very generous. But she cared so much. She cared as much as me. She connected with this role. And she wanted to do, she knew how hard it was going to be. And she was ready to just go full force and start the work. So she started doing accent work a year in advance with Tanner and Marshall, our wonderful accent designer, really, because she built this accent because no one knew how they really spoke back then. So this is based on a lot of research that she did. And then she started working with Celia and myself on the movement. And with Daniel and I, we started singing immediately. So it was just a lot of prep work because everything had to come from this place of of just honest truthful um movement honest truthful singing it couldn't be performative it couldn't be musical theater in the traditional sense um even though she's amazing at that that's not what this story this story or this character required so it had to come from she had to sort of really relearn how like retrain detrain herself from oh you know she She's such a great singer and she's so skilled.

1:35:05So she had to kind of unlearn that and just start trying to find a place where she's just not listening to herself. And so we started going into the studio and singing through imagining giving birth or whispering or screaming or laughing or just try and just find ways of really just connecting in a different way to her voice. And the same with the movement as well. celia really her thought was okay i'm going to create this choreography i'm going to give you this piece of movement but now it's yours i don't care about it being perfect i always would say to celia like i don't want to see dancing i just want to see move we just wanted to see movement and uh so now you own this movement and it doesn't have to it just has to be with a lot of intent the intent needs to be like in your fingertips in every like needs to be go all the way out here and all the way down to your toes, but it can be your intent and it can be your story.

1:36:01And it doesn't have to be all about, oh, I'm doing this perfect, beautiful piece of movement. But she gave us everything and was willing to do all that work. And so then when we came on set, the hard things are, of course, that you're dancing covered in snow and rain and mud. or in every single day there's like, I have 10 goats and a cow and a baby in a scene. You know, it's just all of those things. It just makes it harder. But I think that both Amanda and I thrive in those environments and kind of maximalists. She gives herself to the moment. And when you've done all your homework, you can. Then you can rest in that moment and just let the surroundings affect you.

1:36:44Sean Fennessey:I agree that this is not musical theater-y, but would you ever consider making this a stage musical? Definitely. Because it definitely could play. Yeah, yes. If there's interest in that, we would love to do that. I think the music and the movement is so exciting. And I just, I could look at, I would love to, I would love, I would love for people to see the movement on a stage because I exclude some like pretty fantastic things. Right. Just because it's not right for the story and it's not right for the character to be, for the camera to be an observer. Most of the time, the camera has to be a believer.

1:37:25It has to be intimate. It has to be with Anne and her story and her journey. And there's like some glorious like parts of this choreography, like Hunger and Thirst. That's a beautiful movement piece. And it's, I should just like post it on YouTube or something, the rehearsal videos, because I really love the movement piece. But in the end, And I just needed that. That sequence needed to be one continuous handheld take that's just with her. But I still feel the movement so much. I feel the intent of the movement in that scene. And it's just so delicious. But I would love for someone to see it on the stage.

1:38:03Sean Fennessey:Even just as a one-time only, it could be a very special sort of thing. Maybe we'll do a special movement night in New York. That would be cool. We're doing a concert in the UK. Of all the music. All the music. Yeah, with Amanda and Daniel. Incredible. Wow. So she'll sing the hymns. She'll sing all of it, yes. Wow. Amazing. Will you continue working in the independent mode? Like this film's got distribution from a major studio. Yes. Disney Searchlight is distributing this movie. How cool is that? Crazy, right? How crazy is that? It's very exciting. Thank you. I am, yes. It's so, we always said that Amanda was like a little bit of a, like a little bit of like a fucked up Disney princess in this film.

1:38:48Well, that was Brady's joke as we were making.

1:38:51Sean Fennessey:That's kind of her persona, I think, at large, too, you know? It is, it is. And I love that for her. I love that for this character. And then it's, you know, it's with Searchlight, which is so wonderful. But does that, now that you've been kind of escorted into like a slightly more Hollywood experience here in the aftermath of making the movie, does that give you any ideas? Could you guys work in the world of Hollywood in this way, in this time? Or do you think you'll stick to, we make our movies the way that we want to make them. We get financing the best way that we know how. I'm just curious.

1:39:26Yeah, I will always make the movies the way I want to make them. And if the studio want to make them with me the way that I want to make them, then sure. I mean, I don't have any, there's no like a, I have a philosophy about filmmaking, not just about the stories I tell, but a bit about how we build the projects as well. And that is important to me, down to even the economy of it.

1:39:48Sean Fennessey:This is your hand, Leah's coming out here, your philosophy of filmmaking. There is, because you're creating a small community and how that community functions is important to me, that everyone is taken care of. And that there is not too much of a, not a hierarchy that is negative hierarchy, that there is that that doesn't exist that of course everyone has roles that they fill and because dangerous things can happen on film sets because you're rigging electricity big lights you're doing stunts all these things everyone needs to do the job that they're assigned to do of course it's like you know like you're on a ship or in the army or something that you have there it has to be precise but the creative sort of to create a creative environment whenever Anyone can come to my monitor and we can all talk and we're all part of creating something together.

1:40:41And that sense of unity is incredibly important to me. So I hope that, and I don't know how to fully preserve that. And I don't know how to have all the autonomy that I need, which is, you know, final cuts and all these things that are to preserve that within the Hollywood universe. I don't know. I don't know if that, how, you know, some people do. There's some great filmmakers who've done that for their whole career. And maybe I get to not have to, you know, work so hard on the financing part in the future. But I do want to preserve them. I do want it to make sense though. So there's a sustainability element too that's important to me a little bit.

1:41:29Sean Fennessey:What do you mean by that? I mean that I want, I feel a great responsibility when I'm making, when I'm telling a story for it also. I feel a responsibility for people who put the money in as well. I want it to make sense, you know, in every way when the film comes out as well. So you tell a really radical story and I don't, I don't, I would love for it to reach as many people as possible. We can't always guarantee that. And maybe sometimes it takes time. And I guess I feel anxious about not making everyone whole and making sure that everyone, every single person is, you know, that it made sense for them as well.

1:42:10So I think there's like that, all of that autonomy that I get from keeping the bud shit at quite a reasonable place feels good to me. That being said, one of my favorite movies of all time is Lovers on the Bridge. Correct, yeah. one of the most expensive films in you know the history of french filmmaking and it was did not make its money back and it was not it was a you know it was really but i would and i would be heartbroken if that film didn't exist so it's not really it's not about like you know that it that it's a bad thing that you make a beautiful piece of art and then over time you know it maybe it I'm just glad they exist.

1:42:53But I think also maybe being a woman as well, there's like a really, in this really heavily male-dominated profession, I feel the need and the want for every aspect of it to work and to make sense. And I don't know, maybe that's something I have to get over. No, no. But I do feel that need for it. I want to understand the whole process from beginning to end, from, you know, writing to the film is on, you know, your streamer or whatnot. And that whole process, I want to somehow be in, somehow in part of it and really understand it to fully like make sense for the project.

1:43:38Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I always say it's an art form, but it is a commercial art form, right? It is a release art form. You're meant to share with as many people as possible, right? You are, you are. And it's exciting if you can do something that's radical and that pushes boundaries and ideas within that format. I grew up in Norway and I've spent my adult life in America. My films have always been an American-European co-production of some sort. That space between the two is a place I really love. There's elements. I don't want my films to be... um my films aren't are there i find them to be to speak to the hollywood tradition as much as it speaks to the european um for both the for everything i write and the things i direct i really love american movies and you know we're here in the city of david lynch spielberg and you know there's i and i love i love those i love the grand you know american movies as well.

1:44:41Sean Fennessey:This is like a John Ford movie, but with music in it. I mean, this is a story about a hero conquering America in some ways and in other ways not. Yes, and I wanted to nod to that with the story because I felt her being this you know, this audacious feminist, you know, religious leader, but then to try and give her a little bit of that Hollywood treatment is exciting to me. So if Hollywood wants to come along on some of these things. Sure, that would be great. But if not, then I know how to do it. I know how to build these movies and execute them and make them happen. And if I can't find a distributor who wants to put it out, then we'll figure that out too.

1:45:29I think you can always learn about this process and there's lots of good people that you can hire who will work with you. But now, being with a luxurious distributor for this strange lady, Anne Lee, is fabulous. It is wonderful. I'll be watching regardless.

1:45:50Sean Fennessey:Mona, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen. I don't know if you've been watching movies on your journeys. Yes, I have been watching movies on my journeys. the last great thing that I saw well I mean I presented a print of lovers on the bridge in sack harbor at the cinema out there oh amazing when we were there um so uh I mean that was so beautiful to see that print it was stunning it was so when did you first see it did you see it upon release uh no I I mean I was young uh with what year did it come out in mid 90s right yeah I guess I saw it upon release then, I would imagine.

1:46:35And back in Norway.

1:46:36Sean Fennessey:What is it about that movie that touches you? I think it's the ambition and I think it's the physicality. There's a lot of movement in it as well, which is incredible. It's one of the most incredible physical performance artists and performances that exists. And then Juliette, I don't know. Seeing it now, it was bringing tears to my eyes because it really made me think so much about how many, like in New York now, that there's a crisis with people who are unhoused people and here as well, obviously. And just seeing this beautiful, romantic, wonderful love story from their perspective, I was like, I'm happy to, I think more people should revisit that film.

1:47:22It's a great recommendation. Right now, yeah.

1:47:24Sean Fennessey:Thanks, Mona. No, thanks. Thanks for having me.

1:47:31Sean Fennessey:Okay, thanks to Mona Fastfold. Thanks to Chris Ryan, CR, third chair in our hearts. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on today's episode. We'll be back next week with a draft. Oh, yeah. It's a Matt Damon and Ben Affleck draft. I'm so excited. The cause for such draft is the film The Rip. I already, I made my long list already. It's like harder choices have never been made for me personally. We tried this once before. Yeah. With George Clooney and Brad Pitt. And it didn't... Complicated episode. Yeah. I guess we'd seen... Wolves. Wolves. Wolves. Wolves. Wolves. It's I'm-a-fix wolves and then wolves.

1:48:11Yeah. For all illustrious moments in our cultural history. We had seen wolves, but we still wanted to do the draft. I was also really pregnant at that point. What happened?

1:48:24Sean Fennessey:Did you have the baby? I think so, yeah. worked out. I think this will be good. I'm excited. I think so, too. There's a lot of good stuff to choose from. We'll see you then.

1:48:52Sean Fennessey:Dear McDonald's, your breakfast menu, fire. Tens across the board. I could be happy with anything. even though I order the same thing every time. Thanks for not judging me. I'll try something new next time. Maybe. Right now for$6, get a big breakfast with hotcakes complete with a biscuit, sausage, scrambled eggs, and hash browns. Order McDelivery or in the app to save time. Pricing participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer.