Ari Aster’s ‘Eddington’ Is a Mirror. Like What You See?

26:00I don't have any money to him, like right in front of their face, which, you know, is on the nose, but is also, and the large character shows up throughout the film in like, in those moments, he's kind of always there. He, and then, um, officer Jimenez, who are the one is, is one of the Pueblo investigators he shows up at the movie and then he keeps showing up throughout the the investigation and is just is kind of the only person who knows what's going on and and and is just often just standing there being like what are you talking about like but there there he is a character who still is grounded to reality in reality and his relationship to uh eddington as you know uh officer for the Pueblo.

26:51And then ultimately what happens to him is also, well, you know, it's of a piece with the movie, but it's not like, he doesn't save the day either. He doesn't solve things. No good deed on Unjustified. There's so much stuff about jurisdiction and territory and like political authority versus community authority versus, you know, whose, I mean, whose story is being told whose land it is. This really links it to a lot of Westerns, like a revisionist Western, like John Sayles' Lone Star, which isn't going to be the first thing that people mention with this movie, but I think it's a structural twin of Lone Star.

27:26Ari, if you're listening, I'm sure you watch Lone Star when you're big in this movie. And it's a high compliment, right? It's just Sayles comes at it from a kind of left liberal perspective. And I think Eddington's politics are considerably slipperier. And that's why I think, even though I don't think the movie is opportunistic, I think it uses bad faith kind of as a weapon. It's not just about the bad faith of that period. It's kind of weaponizing that bad faith because, again, we want to tread lightly with spoilers. And you're right. The Lodge character is extremely important as a symbol because I think the movie is instrumentalizing that character symbolically to show the way the community sees him or doesn't see him.

28:01But there's a structural trick hidden in this movie. I don't think it's that subtle. But if people miss it, the way that people might read this movie, I'm not saying maybe people who are going to write 2 ,000 words on it, but people who are going to tweet on it. there is a really bad faith way to misread this movie when it comes to the idea of protest and antifa and, you know, anti-police, anti-police violence. I thought it's quite daring what he did with that because that's the part of the film that is just begging for people to be mad instead of seeing what it's really actually saying. We do need to, at some point, discuss it in depth, maybe a little bit later in this conversation, because it was the thing that I think both Amanda and I, the second time we went to go see it kind of popped and we're like, Let's explore the intention, how much of this is a joke and not.

28:47I think you're right that it obviously has shades of a revisionist Western, but it's also very clearly a conspiracy thriller. It very quickly becomes a movie about paranoia and violence. He's a conspiracy filmmaker, and they are always hiding in plain sight. People's issues with Midsommar is like, oh, come on, we know they're bad. It's like, yes, we do know they're bad from the second you show up. I mean, in Hereditary, you see the cultists in the first scene at the funeral. And in Moe is Afraid, he kind of suspects his mother's messing with him. And it's like, that's all that's happening. I mean, in some ways, the joke is that there's no conspiracy behind the conspiracy.

29:23It's just very obviously what it is. So you mentioned Lodge, the homeless guy at the beginning. He's the first shot of the movie walking along a street, a highway demarcation, which is very significant in terms of a movie about slipping over boundaries and sides. the second shot of the movie is like this ai data center or a power plant that's going to be put down possibly where they want to build this ai center the whole movie is under the shadow of big tech so it is not a surprise when that is the conspiracy that's in plain sight throughout the movie and he's also not choosing his targets badly in terms of what the root of all of the these problems there's not just a social media movie it's an ai movie and if you pay attention to his interviews, that's what he seems to want to talk about.

30:08Because I think he knows how encoded that is into the world of Eddington, even if it's not the obvious subject. This incredible reliance on AI and technology that I think is really one of the main subjects here. It's amazing. You said this is the funniest movie of the year, and that's the other thing that is fascinating about it is that it is a true blue-black comedy. I mean, there are many laugh-out-loud moments. Some of that laughing is from absurdity at the absolute insanity on screen or the there's a lot of self-owning you know people are constantly saying things in this movie that are like what?

30:43you know and that includes people that you would perceive to be like good guys and there are really very few good guys in this movie but it is it does have that hint of like I felt a little bit of like Albert Brooks and even a little bit of like Larry David there's a kind of cringing quality to hearing you know the I think one of the reasons why this movie has pissed a lot of people off is because there's a lot of time spent on well-meaning young protesters right and kind of what they what happened to a certain class of young especially white kid during this time and the way that they're but the funniest moment in the movie to me by far is when the young white kid i believe his name is his name michael um or brian brian brian we'll come back to brian brian is sitting at his dinner table and it's like a it's a smash cut shot.

31:35It's like we haven't spent any time in this kid's home. We don't know anything about it. We smash cut to him lecturing his own parents about his whiteness and how his whiteness needs to be dimmed and stepped down and we need to eliminate it from our culture. And there's a long beat and his dad says, what the fuck are you talking about? Are you fucking R-word? You're white. And when he delivers this, it's in a dining room and behind him is an artillery rack full of guns. And it's like, it is a very broad comic move. Like, it's not subtle. It's, you know, ridiculous. But everything that is happening in this community at that time, and frankly in our world at that time, seemed kind of ridiculous.

32:15And its willingness to kind of poke fun at it while also, I think, trying to reveal like a genuine pain and anxiety is an amazing magic trick. Like, not a lot of filmmakers can kind of balance those tones. And I know for some people they'll disagree that the tone doesn't quite hit. But I laughed a lot, especially the first time I watched it. I was laughing a lot. Yeah. I think I was laughing more. I thought it was genuinely funny, but it was being funny in terms of what it reveals or locates about very recent history that we all lived through and were confused and addled like the people in this movie in our own ways at the time.

32:51I mean, I hope not fully like anyone in this movie. But so when you were talking about how there are some complaints about how it's too soon And do we really want to watch COVID or 2020 or any of this stuff? I honestly felt a little bit that way when I heard the logline of this movie announced. I was like, I don't really want to live through COVID again. I'm good. But I found this, if not cathartic, then at least revealing in terms of like the humor is and the bleakness of the humor and the humor basically is thesis statement of this movie is what got me along on the train ride and being like, okay, I accept.

33:34And the way you're looking through this, because it was, in addition to being tragic and horrific, completely absurd. It was just an absolute horror movie of a time that we lived in, not in the traditional, formal jump scare sense, but in the vibes. And in that sense to me, that's a funny movie, but to me a horror movie as well well talk about moving goalposts when we talk about filmmakers right there's a lot of discourse a couple of years ago prompted by paul schrader where he's like i don't like phones and movies and young filmmakers don't want to make movies about the present which is not wrong and we've talked even on this podcast about how sometimes the best brightest most lavishly subsidized american filmmakers have a thing for period pieces this is all under the shadow of tarantino and revisionist nostalgia and all that so here's a filmmaker who's doing two of these things.

34:25He is dealing with the present a couple of years removed. And again, the issue of AI, or I don't know, the issue of incredible paranoia about elite pedophilia rings. Good thing that's not important at the moment. You know, certainly that's old news in terms of Eddington. But so he's dealing with the present tense and he is finding a visually novel way to use social media and texting and personal technology in a way that serves rather than stymies the narrative. Is it inherently great that he's doing these things? No. And if it doesn't work for you, then that's fine. But I say, here's a youngish filmmaker dealing with the present.

35:00Here's a youngish filmmaker who's using social media kind of as texture and as subject. So then when I just see the reflexive kind of, yeah, you know, I remember four years ago too, I'm like, yeah, well, that's not a film review. You know, there can be a negative review to be written at this movie or an ambivalent one. In fact, I think that given the kind of filmmaker Aster is, if people aren't ambivalent he's kind of doing something wrong this is not a crowd pleasing filmmaker that's kind of to his benefit there's a lot of filmmakers who can make stuff that make people feel nice and that kindness is the new punk or whatever nonsense like you know what are you nothing nothing not referring to anything um certainly not punk adam certainly not that um completely non-cynical, non-opportunistic filmmaker and movie.

35:48But in terms of Eddington, of course it's going to get mixed responses. If it didn't, it wouldn't work. But I do think that when people get mad at this idea that filmmakers are fleeing from the present and then someone actually tries to deal with it, they're like, well, but not that way. It's a very good point. I mean, dealing with the present has created some of the best movies of all time. In fact, it's actually often fascinating, not always successful, but fascinating when a filmmaker tries to represent something in recent past. Like, All the President's Men was made less than five years after the events of Watergate.

36:20You know, The Big Short, Margin Call, those films were within five or six years of the financial crisis. Apocalypse Now was made basically concurrent to Vietnam. One of these is not like the other with all respect to Margin Call, which I love. No, but I mean, these are all like relevant films in the last 50 years, you know? Obviously, Apocalypse Now and All the President's Men are forever movies, but Margin Call is a good movie. you know the big short is a good movie or at least an interesting film to look at so that alone for that to be disqualifying I find absurd whether or not it's successful is a completely different question you know the

36:56the other unusual and interesting choice in this movie is the way that Aster uses stardom which is not really like a tool that he has applied before to portraying some of these archetypes of angst in our culture I think a lot of people will walk away from this movie and say like there was not enough Emma Stone. You know like I wanted more of this because the movie is being sold on this kind of rogues gallery cast where Joaquin is back after his collaboration with Bo. But Pedro Pascal who is among the biggest names in Hollywood this summer. You know Stone and Austin Butler. Austin Butler especially like a rising young star whose stardom I think is like expertly deployed in this movie.

37:40He's not in very much of this movie, but his kind of like locked gaze, you know, slithery charm is weaponized so smartly. And Emma Stone, who often is playing these like deeply charismatic and empathetic people, is a really like a woman in crisis in this movie. A very like Bergman-esque female character. And that's going to like upset people. Yeah. You know, they're going to feel like they're being poked a little bit or they're purposefully being like shown a piece of steak and then throwing it in the garbage. And maybe that is like pure provocation, but I thought it was just a smart sort of strategic use of certain actors.

38:21Can we talk about Joaquin in that context for a minute? Because I, the second time I saw it, I was going back and forth between is this using Joaquin? And I mean, he's he's a great actor, but is it using his innate movie star appeal? Like smartly because you're supposed to be drawn to Joe Cross despite literally everything in this whole movie, or is it working against what's going on here? Because Joaquin is Joaquin. I am on record as finding Joaquin magnetic, even in the Joker. um but and i you know i i think it's smart i he joaquin makes more sense to me as beau and beau is afraid and i think that is maybe and that is more of like a character study of a movie and i think i guess i expect like you know loser mama's boys from ari aster at this point um so it's not that i think he's miscast in this i just i realized that i spent a lot of time thinking about like this is Joaquin Phoenix playing Joe Cross and how is he playing him and the choices that he's making and I don't know whether that is intentional or whether that is just you know the hazard of working with I thought you wrote very smartly about this what do you think Adam um I think Phoenix and I don't know if it's a byproduct of working with one or two or three filmmakers but it's like DiCaprio and and Phoenix they're generationally kind of equivalent Daniel Day-Lewis is older than those people.

39:52And I'm not just saying that, you know, it goes through the gateway of a Tarantino or an Anderson or Scorsese, but this is kind of how film culture works in America now. Phoenix can never just show up in a movie. He could never do To Die For Again. And I don't just mean because he's too big a name. There's all kinds of big stars who are able to do supporting parts. He is like an actor as event. He's the whole movie. Daniel Day-Lewis will never show up in a movie as a guy who's meeting the main character at Starbucks, right? Like he's He's too spectacular. All you can do with him now is play Abraham Lincoln and then he has to retire, you know?

40:25And DiCaprio's like that too. So Phoenix is a guy where the whole movie has to be an event. Her or the master or Joker. I like in this film how it uses that, which is he's kind of the whole movie and the movie is filtered through him and there's not a ton there. He's paralyzed by indecision and anxiety. He doesn't have a strong force of personality. There is never a point where the movie decides Joe Cross is a commanding or orator or where he really has like people in the palm of his hand. He tries and fails. It's hard. We don't want to keep like tiptoeing around spoilers. But let's just say there is a point in the movie that is designed with all of Aster's showmanship in mind to break faith with the character of Joe Cross.

41:07But you are still stuck with him as the protagonist. And Phoenix's performance to me really locks in once you realize that that is the deal. Well, we don't have to talk around. Let's spoil the movie because there's a lot of events in the movie that I don't think people who haven't seen it won't want to hear. We've given it a good 40 minutes here. I also want to talk about Stone, but we can talk about her later. But we'll talk about this twist. What is the event for you that unlocks Joe Cross? Well, it's two moments. And you kind of alluded to it earlier, too. So I think we're in deep spoiler territory now.

41:39So you talk about Lodge, the unhoused character, who at the beginning of the movie is already a prop, you know? He's already being filmed with cell phones at the beginning to sort of show that Phoenix is doing his job, and then that backfires. When you talk about self-owning, there's a lot of self-owning through, like, going on video, and then it's like, actually, that's not how people see this at all. Who can relate to that? Yes. Self-ownage by going to video? Sheesh. I mean, back to back, Joe basically kills the weakest person in this community, and then the strongest one. and he does so i think the first time it is more impulsive which has to do with the weapon he uses and the proximity and the distance and the second time deeply calculated you know at a distance with a sniper rifle he takes down the mayor or the incumbent ted garcia and then waits long enough to take to shoot the mayor's son which is the moment at which i'm like oh this is hugely what this movie is about this is completely impotent character and he's worried he's not gonna have a kid so might as well kill this teenage boy you know too which i think is really awful after joe does those two things you are with him and it's a cliche to say that that's hitchcockian like it's not just a guilty protagonist is inherently hitchcockian it's like oh there's no release valve now this character whatever we thought of his motives or whatever we thought of his reasons for doing this they have now manifested in like cold-blooded murder and the tension in the movie now is I guess he's going to cover it up.

43:04And yet still, and maybe you guys want to talk about it, we still have an extent to which Joe is, if not, sympathetic at the mercy of larger forces, which is where the second half of the movie is really fascinating to me. I think that's the right read of the movie, which is that the movie insists on putting you in the driver's seat with a deeply struggling person who has no idea how to communicate that. And his breaking point is tremendously violent, but it doesn't leave him. It does not escape to a more sympathetic space. It keeps you close to him. And even at the end of the movie, we watch him go through a tremendously violent trauma.

43:43And then the movie doesn't end. We see him in the aftermath of the tremendously violent trauma. And the movie is constantly provoking you to say, do you have any empathy for this experience or any sympathy for this experience through these characters? Because all of these things that this guy has done, which are all manifested of being unable to communicate and basically like live freely in the world in the way that he wants to lead him to the worst things in the world. And yet, even if he had expressed himself as clearly and as cleanly as he wanted to, even if he was able to have a kid with his wife, even if his wife had not experienced tremendous trauma, which then kind of ruined her life, if none of those things happened, you still might be at the whims of more powerful forces that are literally flying above you and enacting great violence and struggle.

44:30And that is where the movie gets into a very interesting question of, is this movie nihilistic? Is this movie a warning? Is it satire? Is it verite? It starts to kind of blur up these words that we lean on on the show to kind of define what we think something is. And part of the reason why I think it's such a special movie is it doesn't force you to, it doesn't demand that you understand exactly what it's saying. It's more saying that there is chaos in this life. We are subject to the forces of chaos all the time. We talked about Melancholia in 25 for 25. Kind of a similar vibe to me. Very different kinds of movies.

45:08Yeah. Well, also like a very, very funny movie just in the sense of everything is so fucked up that the only way to process it is to make jokes about it. Yes. Like really dark jokes. I think, well, so there are two plot points that I want to talk about here that we've alluded to. Number one is, of course, Antifa, Antifa Ex Machina. And then number two is actually like the final, well, the almost final, the second to last shot or series of shots in the movie, which are not of Joe. though he really he gets an incredible send off in bed with two other people. But then after after watching young Mr.

46:03Lincoln and and cry, I mean, it's this movie so sadistic, but like in the right way. And then the second the second to last shot is a TikTok video on its side of the third most important character in the film, who is Brian, the aforementioned guy who's going to defeat his whiteness until he winds up in Florida as like, you know, a MAGA kid with a new home. A re-radicalized young Republican. Celebrating the first anniversary of the Eddington terrorist attacks because once again, Antifa showed up. We got to start with Antifa though. Okay. Because this is what I said to you when I went to see the movie.

46:49And we have been very positive about this movie. I really like this movie. It is two and a half hours long. And it does about two hours in find itself to like a very long like raid and violent standoff between Joe Cross and several Antifa terrorists. who have just flown in on their private jet. And just structurally, I did find my mind wandering both times, which is just a little bit about pacing and how much you're trying to crowd in. But so then maybe to Adam's earlier point, maybe I missed the key that unlocks Antifa as the piece that solves this puzzle. So I was hoping that you could go back for me on that one.

47:44Well, you said it yourself, which is the private plane. Sure. Okay. Yeah, they're crisis actors. Yeah, of course. They're crisis actors. And it's funny because, you know, we had last year in Alex Garland's Civil War, you know, we had a reference to the Antifa massacre. And I just like to think Eddington is the sequel to that, but it puts it in quotes while poking you through the screen to be like, not a thing. Right. Right. Where as Eddington becomes the center of this culture war, because the joke is that first the first half of the movie, they're seeing America on their screens. And then the second half of the movie, everyone's screens are going to turn to tune to Eddington.

48:22Right. But this becomes a place where these people are converging in a way. I mean, critics jobs aren't to reedit movies ever. but I'm like I would love the private jet bit taken out because I still think you could read what is going on just the level of like militarization and why they would be trying to take Joe out of the picture at that point and the spectacle of what they're doing and really force people to think through what's actually going on here we first see it when we see Joe is looking at his phone and he sees the footage of the Antifa attack in Portland and that because of even just the angle from which we see that video, instantaneously I was like, this is a crisis actor situation.

49:08I felt like I understood exactly what he was trying to do and the private plane is a little bit gilding the lily, particularly the hand over the globe on the private plane, you know, that symbol that is on the tail of the plane, which is very funny, but it takes a movie that at times is playing things very straight. It's absurd feeling, but doesn't feel fantastical and it's a majorly fantastical or seemingly fantastical element. That's Aster's cultists showing up. Yes. You know, in Hereditary, it's naked old people. In Midsommar, it's, you know, an ABBA cover band. And here it's, you know, these heavily militarized whatever, which is where you do get that incredible, because, I mean, the end of the film becomes, and this is going to be interesting when we talk about Cloud in a couple of minutes, it becomes like first-person shooter aesthetics, almost, with Phoenix's kind of back to the wall and the way that it's filmed is interesting.

50:00He just keeps looking around him. It's sort of that idea of just being surrounded. There's that moment right before the final moment of violence when the camera is spinning around and we're seeing his perspective and then they get this kind of quasar light effect, you know, Steven Spielberg style that is just like, to me, I was like, this is a magical experience of formal filmmaking. Like very rarely do movies look and feel this good. The movie I cited to you, I know you'll appreciate this, is I was like, this is kind of in RoboCop territory where you're just like so immersed in an absurd world that you get so, it's hard for me as an older man to get excited by a sequence like that, but that was very, very special and unusual, but also meaningful to the story.

50:37I'm sorry to interrupt you. No, no, not at all. Because what he's doing is it's a mix of first person shooter and this deeply militarized, like, you know, call of duty mentality you kind of have in American life, which is kind of aspirational and kind of, but it's also a Western. I mean, it's a shootout on Main Street. And just in case you don't get it, he has just crashed through the ceiling and run through the sort of Native American history museum, which is hugely mobilized in the movie in terms of symbols of the American West. And again, whose whose territory or town or legacy is kind of being fought over.

51:09I mean, he's staging the end of a Western and the end of an action movie and the end of a video game. And then, yeah, in that final coda, you have the thing that he is most terrified of, which is paralysis. Hereditary is all about waking up into a body that's not yours. At the end of Midsommar, you get a his and hers version of that, both with Florence Pugh and what's his name? Jack Rayner kind of stuck as a witness to what's happened to them. Bo is afraid takes that and makes it horrible at the end because there's a whole audience kind of watching you. So that idea that all Joe can do is like watch TV and look at screens at the end of the movie.

51:47He's kind of where he started. It's just the physical paralysis has been literally. And Amanda, I'm so glad you mentioned Young Mr. Lincoln, because that's the thing that's going to bother some cinephiles so much, is they're going to feel that this is a bastardization of John Ford and that he's like stealing valor from John Ford to do this. I don't think that he's a 40 and filmmaker, but I mean, that bit really hits. And I'm glad it was Young Mr. Lincoln, not Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, because other movies have done balance. The Young Mr. Lincoln thing is good. Well, it's perfect because that's a movie about decency and honesty in the face of the violent hordes.

52:23And Deirdre O 'Connell's character, she's also wonderful in this movie, Emma Stone's mother's character. The idea that they are representing the same ideals is the kind of delusion that powers people through these stages of life, through these experiences. That's a very neatly communicated idea. if you've seen Young Mr. Lincoln and if you haven't then maybe you should go watch it. It's really funny that Ari Aster keeps making these movies that demand this level of interrogation and that ultimately so many of them are about how like it's so terrifying to be seen and to be understood and then he like makes the movie and then millions of people see them and he keeps doing interviews and people keep asking him about all those feelings.

53:07He's in this kind of deathless cycle of self-examination that just feels very dangerous. I applaud him for putting himself out there, but it just seems kind of crazy to me. Yeah, I mean, the horror of being perceived, I think that's true. And I think that what we haven't really touched on, and you know, you guys are an industry podcast as well, so I wonder what you guys think about this. I wonder how this will do, not in the echo chamber of social media, or you kind of know what critics are going to give it good or bad reviews without putting too fine a point on it. Like battle lines are drawn about this filmmaker, which I think is interesting.

53:39but I mean Bo is Afraid was was a talking point in some ways because it's like oh that's what a blank check movie looks like you know I feel like the check in this one is blanker I mean this has got to at least be comparable in terms of you know in in terms of cause I haven't seen this movie promoted much like I'm not trying to open a can of worms when I say this but like it's a hard movie to market and a hard movie to open wide and I wonder how you guys think or how it's tracking and sort of how it's going to do because this is the kind of movie people say no one makes anymore. And then when people make them, the talkie points, well, they don't make them anymore.

54:14Well, someone just did. So, you know, how's it going to do? I don't think it's going to make a lot of money if that's the question. I think it's obviously tracking for somewhere in the neighborhood of like$5 million this weekend, which is not great. His movies are fairly modest. They're bigger on the higher end for a mini studio like A24. But... I think it's a hard movie to market and also an easy movie to market. The hard part is COVID because there are a lot of people who just do not want to go back to that and think about that time. But you might have said the same thing about Vietnam, but then you see the images from Apocalypse Now and you think like this is thrilling filmmaking.

54:54And there is a lot of thrilling filmmaking and frankly violent filmmaking in this movie that is excitable for audiences. But a lot of it happens in ways that you cannot show or market before you see the movie. and would give away, I think, significant aspects of the story. So it's a typical conundrum in like how do you sell a movie that's really ultimately a thriller with huge Western inflection, but then also try to appeal to the A24, like this is a movie about right now kind of energy that they want to have to. What's the highest grossing A24 movie of all time? I think this is very significant to talking about Eddington.

55:31Civil War, right? Civil War, right? It came out a year ago, which is sort of a thriller and sort of a genre movie it's an idea movie it's about America's contested territory it also has an Antifa massacre in it and not a movie that I would have thought would be a blockbuster and it didn't make like you know avatar money but that's their biggest hit and I really wonder what the real difference is between those movies and I'm not going to use this as an excuse to say I know what the difference between these movies is because as a critic I definitely have my opinions but I wouldn't have thought a civil war was a was a slam dunk either but in a way the war movie part of it and the promise of some kind of heavy artillery and violence on the trailers even for the a24 audience which i don't think considers themselves to be you know hard right it's still got people into the theater and with this one i think the the idea that it's somehow polarizing or both sidesing or god forbid you know a left liberal satire.

56:27This is not boding hugely well in the marketplace for it. I think that comparison's interesting because it's the same studio. And they're kind of similar movies. Well, some of it I do also think that to a certain audience, and it's a smaller audience, but Ari Aster is a brand name. And so I think on the one hand there are a lot of people who will also defend Bo is Afraid, who will go seek this out because it's Ari. And then there are people who saw Hereditary and have been mad ever since at every single Ari Aster movie because you're not chopping someone's head off halfway. Even though sort of you are in this.

57:08There's head trauma in all four of his movies and it is unmistakable. But it is not their understanding of a classic horror movie. He's using genre as a mode, as a tool. He's not sitting deep in the Screen Gem style Sony programmer horror movie style. I think... I think Bo is a lot more impenetrable than this movie. Agree. Bo is three hours. It was stylistically really audacious, animated sequence, this sort of like unreality of Bo's experience. This movie is way more grounded, way more approachable, and it does have this kind of bravura, third act, violent sequence. It does not have battle sequences.

57:48Civil War could put in its trailer a dozen army men shooting at a building, you know, and that appeals in a different way. Once again, we live in hell, but in a different way. I mean, it's just something that people want at the movies, and it is something that they've always wanted. at the movies going all the way back to All Quiet on the Western Front. It's just something that people are, is appealing to people. So to me, they are a little bit different. Civil War is a more expensive movie to make. I think they marketed that movie very well. There was also something inherently experiential about going to see Civil War loud in IMAX.

58:19I believe that was the first time they secured the kind of like wide IMAX experience for A24. So there were some other things that were working in its favor. I think it's also a movie that played a little bit better overseas because it was about America and how stupid America could be. And that was appealing in some ways. And also, I don't think Civil War both sides things per se, but there was an interpretable aspect of both sidesing. This movie, kind of no one's good. Yeah. You know, if you're far right and you go see this movie and you see what Joe Cross does, you're not going to be like, yeah, great.

58:52You're going to be like, why am I being indicted? And if you're far left and you see these young white protesters basically being lampooned. And you're going to be annoyed. You're going to be mad. And then you're also far left of critics of this movie and don't like it. Right. And then you're also asked for the first half to Adam's point to sort of to empathize with Joe Cross and for the second half to sit with him after he's done all of these things that. Well, he's done like in the first half, he's asking questions and saying things that are not appropriate according to like a leftist mindset.

59:25And but you're like, oh, maybe like maybe maybe he's not so wrong. And then he kills several people psychotically and covers it up. And you're like, oh, now I'm in a boat with this guy for a very, very long time. And then crisis actors named as Antifa show up. We forgot to mention the Ted Garcia campaign advertisement and virtue signaling, which is another incredible aspect of this movie that, again, And I think it reveals a narcissism and an insincerity in a lot of the characters. And sometimes the most sincere characters in the movie are those with bad values. So we don't want to hear their values.

1:00:06But those who tend to suggest good values communicate them in such a cringy and dishonest way that there's really no safe landing place for anybody's political, social feeling in the movie. Speaking of insincerity, the Katy Perry firework needle drop. Once again, Ari Aster is the king of music pop songs to, you know, unlock everything that's wrong with us. There's like a hundred things in this movie like that where I was like, that's funny. Like, that's a good idea. What I was going to say about Pascal is, I think that in some ways, I'm going to try and frame this nicely. He's so overexposed at the moment.

1:00:42He's just so stretched. He's in so many things. And there's also so much like parasocial interest in him. and internet interest, which by the way, I like, I tend to enjoy his interviews more than like literally any performances. But here, that overexposed quality works because it does suggest a guy who is kind of stretching himself thin. And I think Sean, what you guys were both saying about the use of movie stars in this movie, it's very smart because using them in these small little blips, they retain a sense of mystery or ambiguity. So I just want to say about Emma Stone, you know, because she's also a producer on a lot of stuff recently too.

1:01:20And she seemed to have cultivated this little corner of the sandbox with some weird kids. You know, she's worked with Ari Aster, Nathan Fielder on The Curse. That performance in The Curse, which is also set in New Mexico and which is hugely thematically side by side with Eddington. In fact, if I'm going to double bill it with anything made in the last couple of years at Eddington and The Curse, that performance in The Curse is one of the best things I've seen in years. That is a tour de force of like misplaced charisma and narcissism and this character who needs to be seen. And to see her completely invert that in this movie, not just the lack of screen time, but someone who does not want to be looked at, someone who does not want to be heard, someone who does not want to be listened to for fear of what she might say if someone pays attention to her and the way that the movie uses her.

1:02:04She's one of the first things we see in the movie. I mean, her picture is on his dash cam for the entire film. And again, a bit of a spoiler formally. She's the last thing Joe sees. and she's off in her own version of Midsommar. You know, it's like he's turned the TV on. It's like, oh, cool, a cult where everyone's getting pregnant, you know. She's used really well and it's a high compliment. She reminded me of Sissy Spacek in Carrie, except she doesn't get to go crazy. But it's like she was playing Carrie and her mother at the same time or between her and Deirdre O 'Connell, there was a lot of Carrie in what the two of them were doing.

1:02:37Yeah, she's Piper Laurie in this equation for sure. Piper Laurie in this equation. So again, Astor's showing his influences, but like they're good influences. And I think the fact that Stone can sublimate that incredible charisma she has because she's one of the most electric movie stars on the planet to play a character who like you barely recognize when she's there. There's actually an important plot point in this movie that hinges on her being misrecognized briefly for someone else when he's in his house and he thinks he sees his wife and it's the mother-in-law. A classic horror movie sequence.

1:03:07Yeah. Classic. But for a movie star like her to make herself that indistinct is impressive. I think that when she's in the right role, she's amazing. As you know, she is my goat. Yeah. She's truly great. She's great. And she has cool taste and she's just doing cool stuff all of the time. Using her power for good. Yeah. A very rare, creative, hugely successful person just making really interesting art on a consistent basis. Awards? I don't think this movie's going to win any awards. I think in a greater world, it would at least be explored as a potentiality because there's very good performances in this movie.

1:03:43It looks beautiful. As I said, Kanji is amazing. And Ari is what, in theory, we're asking for, right? Writer, director with strong vision, making original movies. That's the whole ballgame. Refresh your good vibes with Tic Tac. Mit den richtigen vibes wird Oh man! Zu

1:04:17Jetzt probieren die verschiedenen Tic Tac Sorten von minzig frisch bis fruchtig süß Tic Tac Refresh your good vibes Speaking of writer-directors making original movies with strong visions let's talk about Kiyoshi Kurosawa so we did talk a bit about Chime last year at our mid period which was a short film that Kurosawa kinda sorta released I think I watched it sort of legally never got proper wide distribution here he's been making movies for over 30 years at this point if Sight and Sand does a list of the greatest NFTs ever made I vote I vote I vote for Chime I'm sure that list will grow longer and longer as time goes by longer and longer This new movie is called Cloud.

1:05:03It is his 27th movie. I will not claim I have seen more than five. I think I've seen five or six, maybe six of his movies. We talked about this a little bit off mic last time I saw you, Adam. And why don't you tell us why Kiyoshi Kurosawa matters to you and to the listeners of this show? Well, you know, I think we try and keep a lid on hyperbole over here at The Ringer. You know, we never say that things are the greatest ever. No, I mean, for me, this is one of the 10 greatest living filmmakers, you know, and he's older than I think people think he is, you know, because he really came to international prominence almost in the second half of his career.

1:05:42I mean, in the late nineties, because of cure and pulse, which are movies that I'm pretty sure through criterion channel are somewhat familiar to the listenership of this show. There's a guy who made a lot of films, at least eight, nine, 10, a dozen films, just pumping them out within the studio system. And you called, you used this phrase earlier for a different movie, like kind of programmers, You know, like comedies, he made a couple of pink films, you know, genre pieces, a director working on assignment. And the short version is he just learned how to make movies very efficiently. Like, I think he just imbibed and just ingested the process of working on a set and coming in under budget.

1:06:18And then you have this second half of his career where it just turns out also, whether he writes his own scripts or not, but when he writes his own script, he's this visionary poet of light and shadow. and he is on par with anybody you want to put in that category of genre masters. I've spoken to him a couple of times, which have been among the great pleasures of my professional life because I think he's a genius. He's the world's biggest John Carpenter fan. He was moved during the shooting of Cloud, he told me, when there was a shot of two people walking and he's like, that was a bit like a shot in a John Carpenter movie and I was very overwhelmed.

1:06:53I'm like, this is awesome. I mean, he loves John Carpenter. He loves David Cronenberg. he's spoken about Jacques Tourneur. That's the level we're talking about here because of what he does with his frames. He does not have to make a horror movie to make his frames scary. I know Ari is a Kurosawa fan. When he makes a horror movie and he wants to scare you, he's as good at it as anybody I have ever seen. But even when he shoots a domestic drama like Tokyo Sonata or a period piece like Daguerreotype, he has a way of putting space on screen where you are looking at the wall, You are looking at the window.

1:07:28You are having layers peeled away. People are opening doors. They're opening closets. They're peeling back curtains. And you feel like the frame could kind of reveal anything to you. That's the thing about Chime when I watched it last year is you're looking at nothing and you're terrified, you know? So I think he's a brilliant filmmaker. And Cloud, which is being hailed as a return to form, which is silly because it's not like his form has ever abandoned him. this is the biggest release he's gotten for in the states i think ever for a film with sideshow putting it out i mean i can talk more about it but what did what did you guys think i wanted to talk about cloud i wanted you guys to watch it or you're gonna watch it anyway so you haven't seen no i haven't gotten to see i'm gonna i'm gonna see it this weekend but um my joke to you was that this is heat for dumb fucks which i stand by um i think it's a it's a perfect match in discussion with this movie because it is also a movie about life through screens and the consequences thereof.

1:08:24Like that is the whole idea of the movie. It's a movie about a young kind of internet reseller, counterfeiter type who is constantly building a business by identifying rare goods and reselling them at exorbitant rates. And this leads to him quitting his day job and moving out into the country with his girlfriend and building his business up and not quite realizing the way that his business will come back on him. And the movie starts out as this very, to me, what felt like a very Kurosawa-esque, unnerving thriller that even maybe I thought could have had some sort of supernatural turn at some point.

1:09:08Oh, totally. It feels like Pulse 2 where when you're watching Pulse, you're like, is this actually a horror movie through the first 10 minutes or is it just a movie about paranoid people? And then it becomes like a very violent and pretty funny movie of like, it's like three stooges with guns at times. And I really liked it quite a bit. What did you think? Yeah, I wrote about this film for, not for you guys, but for The New Republic. So my editor there, Lorraine Catamartori, was working through my piece. She pointed out that Rattel, which is his screen name for this reselling business, I was writing about it like a kind of rodent name.

1:09:44She's like, that's also another word for honey badger, which is pretty funny, given the way he conducts himself online. Like, this is a guy who's just proud of the fact that he has no ethics. He doesn't care what he's selling. he's happy to sort of raise and lower and screw with prices he's like a middleman who's who's cutting out the other middlemen you know like he's ruthless and he really deserves everything that's coming to him but then the movie is also about like well what would it look like if all the rage of the internet kind of became literalized and be the kind of like group chats you have or you're like angry at someone together you want to dock someone like what if that just climbed out of the computer and the result is it kind of looks like a Park Chan-wook movie that's even funnier it's like those Park Chan-wook Lady Vengeance Mr.

1:10:26Vengeance movies but like torqued like 20 % more towards being funny when there's people just keep coming out of the woodwork to try and hunt this guy down and it's hilarious the guy in the mask is incredible the guy in the mask is incredible when you say it's like heat for dumb fucks I mean it's also kind of like Fargo in Japan at one point where it's just you know like wandering around wandering around this kind of frozen forest and then you know he keeps shifting the genre. He told me that he wanted this movie to have it. Again, he's such a modest filmmaker. The ratio of mastery to modesty is like, often you talk to filmmakers, they know how good they are.

1:11:02And you talk to Kyoshi Kurosawa and he's like, that's interesting. I didn't know that about my own films. And whether that's sincere or not, it's very charming. He said he wanted this to have movie logic. He said something interesting. He said Americans are good at movie logic. Eddington's an example of that too, where it's not just movie logic, but like a character succumbs to movie logic. He said, I want this to feel like it could happen because you're watching a movie. Like realism is out the window, which is why even though things that happen in cloud are ridiculous, I didn't doubt any of it.

1:11:32And that really takes on a pretty apocalyptic cast. Here I want to be careful because I don't want to spoil the movie for Amanda, but like if people have seen some of the more apocalyptic Curacao movies like Charisma and Pulse or even a movie like Bright Future, which is just about releasing jellyfish into the sewers, but you kind of watch it at the end and you're like, is the world going to end now? Like what, what is going on? He finds a way to lower this veil of suggestion over what's happening where it's kind of not funny anymore by the end, or it's funny in a deeply bleak way. The last scenes of Eddington and Cloud talk to each other, I think.

1:12:08And huge shout out to the secondary character in Cloud. He's my favorite character in any movie this year. His like henchman who comes to work for him when he moves his business out to the country just this like local high school dropout who just like will happily kick the shit out of people for him and just do whatever he's told and you're sort of like yeah you need those people don't you you know if the worst people in the world have the loyalty of those kinds of people um there is no telling the level of damage that can sort of be done which is i think where cloud goes at the end i'm trying to not spoil it because of you know Amanda's in the room, but like, I mean, that is that, that, that late conversation is the funniest, scariest, most politicized bit.

1:12:49It's so great. I, we did not really talk about Michael Ward's character in Eddington, but they have, he has something in common. He's a little bit less of a trickster, you know, Loki type figure than the one in cloud, but this like unfailing loyalty to a bad person, you know, to a person who's breaking the rules and even breaking the law and doesn't totally realize the consequences of his actions and the way that those people can be pawns or can control situations. You know, you mentioned that final moment in Eddington of, you know, seeing Emma Stone's character. And we also didn't mention, like, one of the last things you see is Michael still with his sniper rifle practicing, staying ready, traumatized by the experience that he's had falling into everyone else's web.

1:13:36and there are other characters in Cloud who experience similar fates, who become kind of ensnared in Rattel's schemes and suffer grisly fates. It's crazy that they're coming out on the same day because they have a lot in common and two very uncompromising directors. So for people who are listening at home, you know, Cure is in the Criterion Collection. Pulse is probably the most well-known of his movies aside from the like Cure boom that happened in the last 10 years where everyone kind of discovered that movie because Pulse was remade in America in a horror movie starring Kristen Bell. The original Pulse is extraordinary to me.

1:14:14It is one of the horror movies of the century. It's an excellent film. But as I said, I've only seen a couple of other of his movies. So what would you recommend for people at home, for Amanda, for any of us? I'll recommend and then I'll look forward to some photo of this standard DVD showing up on your social media feed, Sean. You should watch Tokyo Sonata from 2008, which is not a horror film it's actually a movie that is so in conversation with like i don't know the lorraine loren conté film time out or you know these films kind of about economic collapse it's about a family let's just say that the dad loses his job but he keeps going to work and where he's actually going is unknown and no one in the family is talking to or listening to each other no one knows who is where during the day and it all sort of builds towards this younger son wanting to play piano.

1:15:04And a lot of people have written about the ending of Tokyo Sonata as one of Kurosawa's great films. And this isn't a plot spoiler. I mean, the plot of the film is strange and unpredictable. And the arcs of the characters are things you sort of can't intuit when you start watching it. But there's a piano recital at the end of that movie. I just looked at it again the other night because I wanted to watch that scene. It's one of the most uncanny things I've ever seen in a movie. And it's just simply the camera observing this kid playing Claire de Lune while these people watch and how we are supposed to feel about it is never told.

1:15:34And I think that's something that Curacao is incredibly good at, which is we are so used to, I mean, Eddington in a way is very nudgy movie in a good way. That's very American. Curacao has an ability to show you things. You are not given any idea how you're supposed to feel about it, but you feel something and that ambivalence and that ambiguity is a rare thing. So if people are interested in him as a horror filmmaker and they want to see how he can conjure that same scariness without having a single horror element. I think Tokyo Sonata is like, if not his best movie, it's right up there. I just hope people go see Cloud because again, it's cool that it got an American release.

1:16:09It was hard to see his movies theatrically for the last 15 or 20 years. They don't come out, even though he's very respected. So I hope if people are listening to this, they'll go see it wherever it's opening. A hearty recommendation. Thank you, Adam. So good to see you. Good to see you guys too. Let's go to my conversation now with Ari Aster.

1:16:32Ari Aster back on the show. Very excited to talk with you. I've just seen your movie. And I really liked it. I have a million questions. Here's the first question. Do you remember the day you started writing the movie? I don't remember the day, but I remember the month. It was early June 2020. What had you most recently consumed when you started writing? Do you remember? Were you watching the news? Were you looking at your phone? uh i was i was like i was really on twitter i wasn't posting much on twitter um although i might have been like retweeting uh but yeah the twitter was the the space that i was living in and and this is sort of the movie that twitter built true um twitter is not it's the same as it was specifically in 2020.

1:17:25No, it's gotten a little gnarlier. I didn't think it could get worse, but it's a lot worse. It's very different. The chaos that I'm sure you were feeling at that time, but stuck in your house, presumably in June of 2020, spurred you to make something about what was actually happening in the world, which feels very different from your three previous films. So maybe you can talk me a little bit through the desire to show us our world, literally, in some ways. Yeah, I mean, in some ways it's different. It's always, I mean, it's all world building in one way or another. And they're all personal. But yes, this is, after something like Bo is Afraid, This is a big pivot in that it is very much grounded in this world.

1:18:24And I wanted to make a movie about what it feels like to live in a world where nobody agrees on what is happening. And so that was the impetus. and it really just came out of wanting to make something that was kind of inflected by like a modern realism which I've I've seen some of but there's something I've been wanting to see and I think this was my attempt at doing that and I'm a genre filmmaker

1:19:14And I'm somebody who, I grew up in New Mexico. I've always wanted to make a film about the Southwest, but New Mexico in particular. And so it kind of naturally became a Western. so I wanted to ask you about New Mexico specifically like why not just why you said it there but kind of what is the character of the state what are the aspects of growing up there that stuck with you that you wanted to try to recreate and made it the right setting for this kind of a story well you know I I grew up in Santa Fe and my my family lives in Albuquerque now and they have for about about 20 years um

1:20:06But it's a place that I didn't love when I was there, when I was growing up. I was born in New York and I didn't like living in the desert in isolation.

1:20:23And it is a very specific place with a very specific history. And it's a fraught place politically. So I wrote a draft of this very quickly in June just to kind of get everything down on paper. And then I made Bo Was Afraid. And then while I was editing Bo Was Afraid, I went back to the script, polished it. And then I came back to New Mexico and I drove all across the state. And I went to different small towns to talk to sheriffs, police chiefs, mayors, public officials. I went to Pueblos. And I was just trying to get as broad a picture of the state and its political climate as possible. And it's a very interesting place.

1:21:19It's a blue state, but the small towns are mostly red. And there was, at the time, a lot of animosity. The contentiousness that we see in the film at that time. Yeah, and the governor was like a figure of controversy. And it was really, really useful to meet all those people. And there are a lot of characters in the film that are modeled on different people that I met, especially Joaquin Phoenix's character. There was a sheriff that I met in a small town. I won't say his name just to protect his anonymity, but who knows, maybe he'd like me to say his name. And he was sort of in this ideological war with the mayor of a town in the county that he was sheriff of.

1:22:21And I introduced him to Joaquin. Joaquin loved him. And his wardrobe is identical, basically. um can i let me ask you this what might seem like a pedantic question but you'll hear filmmakers say like i went and i interviewed people who were in this world how do you how are you meeting local mayors in new mexico and sheriffs like who is the go-between do you have a vast network of contacts that can show you the inside of this world no you know it's pretty simple i mean i i had an assistant who was helping me um but you know i i'm making a hollywood movie and you're living in a small town and you're available.

1:23:05You were welcomed into those worlds. People were comfortable telling you about their lives and the work that they do. And they were not only willing, but they were eager to talk about what was bothering them. And it was really, really useful. And at the time, Biden was president. It was a democratic governor. And it was very interesting to go to talk to these people who were on the right, who were very, very upset about what was happening. And I found a lot of them really, really sympathetic. and that was interesting and that found its way into the film you know where I didn't I don't know I didn't want to make an ideological screed like that's too narrow I didn't want to be just like making another film where I'm it's only going to reach the choir that it's preaching to that's just not I wanted to make a film about the environment and I wanted to do it without judging anybody and that was the project, really.

1:24:20That's one of my big takeaways from it is at times when you're watching it, you feel like everyone is guilty. And at times when you're watching it, you feel like everyone is innocent and stuck in this kind of quagmire that we find ourselves in. But that's hard to sell to the world. I mean, even to your actors, when you're showing them the script, do they have questions? Where do you stand on these things? Or do they just feel like this recognizes a moment in our history and we need to represent it somehow? Well, no, I mean, they knew where I stood because we all kind of stood in the same place.

1:24:52But no, there wasn't a lot of, there wasn't that much talk like that. It was mostly just about how do we, in some ways it was about how do we keep from falling into the same trap as, you know, so many of, so much, not just so many films, but just so much media.

1:25:16Again, it was about the environment. I wanted to make a film about the landscape and about what it feels like to live in a world where nobody agrees on what's happening and everybody distrusts everybody else. And, you know, I mean, first, I think you just have to kind of agree that everybody in this world cares about the world, you know, and that's where kind of we started with everybody, with every character in the film. And the idea was I wanted to pull back as far as I could to include as many instruments in the cacophony as possible without sacrificing coherence and without neglecting to tell a story.

1:26:07I would have had more characters if I could have that in one way or another represented, I mean, honestly, like a different corner of the internet because that's really where we're all living. We're all living in the internet right now. We have been for a while. And COVID, you know, feels to me like it wasn't the beginning of anything, but it was an inflection point. And it feels to me like the moment at which that last link to whatever that old world was, you know, was permanently severed. uh and and and and i don't think any of us have really metabolized what happened in you know in 2020 because i think we're still living through it we're still it's we're still in the process of of what is happening yeah yeah it was the accelerant for sure um i you called yourself a genre filmmaker which I think is an interesting way to define yourself the genres in this movie that I recognized were obviously a western which you mentioned I guess conspiracy thriller for lack of a better term and political drama which is an interesting flavor through your lens too were you overt in thinking about the ways to use the tropes of those kinds of stories to apply them to what we were living through at that time?

1:27:41Uh, you know, I think it's just, I just know, I don't know. Genre is like a language that I think we're all kind of fluent in, you know? And so it's, I wasn't thinking about any specific films. There's no like, you know, I'm not like nodding to anything, but I am aware of the tropes. And I think in particular, this is a film about people who are also all fluent and all that stuff. Like Joaquin Phoenix's character, Joe Cross, the sheriff of Sevilla County, he has watched all those old Westerns. And he's a very sentimental guy, which in some ways means that he's not actually looking at his own life.

1:28:19He's very romantic. But I think he's informed by those, you know, by movies like High Noon or, you know, My Darling Clementine. Or, you know, he has this very romantic notion of what he's doing, of the West, you know, he's - Like the moral protector in his mind. Moral protector, man of action, like, you know, a man of integrity. He loves his wife, cares about his community. and, you know, that gives him a lot of armor and it also, it allows him to kind of not see himself. And, you know, he's like a 50-year-old man. He would have grown up with the action movies of the 80s and the 90s and at the end of the movie, he gets to live through one, right?

1:29:11I mean, he's shooting at Phantoms, but he's in an action movie. And then you have a kid who's younger than him and he gets to live through it And there's that video game language kind of comes in. It should be inflected by almost this call of duty. I wanted the film to incorporate a lot of that language, those different languages. And all of these characters are kind of living in different movies in their heads. Is that because the media that they're consuming is informing the way that they see the world, but we don't all consume the same things anymore? And so, like, were you thinking that schematically?

1:30:00yeah yeah i mean they're all they're all uh uh being pumped full of different things um and they totally distrust anybody who's receiving anything uh different and and so i wanted the film to be kind of you know i wanted to make a very empathic film but i wanted to be empathic in multiple different directions including directions that are directly oppositional right and so it's um uh and and yeah i i i definitely do see the film as like a conspiracy thriller but it's also it's it's it's about people who are kind of like living in their own little conspiracy thriller like you know i i thought a lot about like that movie jfk which i love um and it feels like we're living in a world of like you know everybody's a jim garrison yes our own little assassination plot that we're trying to unpack.

1:30:57Yeah. And I love that film too, for just, I think it taps into the fever of conspiracy thinking and like the mania of it in a very special way. You know, it's a, it's a controversial film because it's kind of a hodgepodge of different conspiracies and it's been discredited far and wide. But, but for me, that's not what makes it a valuable film. It like really, really taps into this like spirit of distrust in a really infectious, possessed way. There's kind of like a counterfeeling in the movie too, though, that is about the sense of being left out of something, being left out of a movement, not understanding the rhetoric of a certain way of thinking about the world too, that I thought was really smart and acute.

1:31:41And like the young male character who sort of joins the Black Lives Matter movement, the protest movement in the film that I have not seen that rendered really at all in a smart way in media, but it was so felt very bang on and memorable in recent history. And that is actually kind of the opposite of what you're describing with these kind of individual conspiracies. There's this sense that like something is happening and you are not a part of it. And so you are almost like outcast from your community because you aren't joining. And those two things being in conflict, I thought was really interesting.

1:32:14Or because you're not doing it the right way. And so there is this moral coercion there. And they're right. And some of them really, they're right, but some of them are, but they're also inadvertently alienating people that they could be reaching. And so a lot of those kids really do feel the things. Well, it's sincere. It's more sincere for some than for others. and you know with the kid you're talking about you know he's looking for a community you know that's really what he's doing and in the end he's you know he doesn't have the fortitude that some of these other kids do the hardest I've laughed in a movie this year is him explaining the movement to his father sitting behind a rack of guns is like that's the best image that was really good the other thing that I noticed is it felt like, and tell me if I'm wrong about this, that the actual filmmaking style, the technique, was just a little bit different than what you'd done before.

1:33:20I know you're working with Darius Kanji, but it felt like a lot of handheld, a lot of perspectival movement with the camera, where as opposed to like, I think of your movies, and I think of like big wide shot, body falling off the mountain. You know what I mean? Like the violent action is in full view. And this felt like it was like really in your face. And every time we're moving through the store with Joe, right on top of his shoulder. You know, he's right in Pedro Pascal's face. Like, did you feel like you were shifting the style of filmmaking you were doing at all, trying new things? Not really.

1:33:51I mean, it's funny you say a lot of handheld because I'm racking my brain to think of where there's handheld. I know that there's, where is there handheld? It's, I kick into handheld on almost all the films, but I try to be very strategic about it. Like in Midsommar, it's when they're all kind of crying together and kind of the film is kind of, it's been kind of tilted off its axis, right? Yeah. And then Bo is Afraid, I think we only did handheld for the scene where the girl drinks the paint. And then I know we did handheld at some point here, but I'm forgetting where. No handheld in the kind of final dramatic sequence.

1:34:35That's really, really, but it's great that it feels that way because we want it to feel alive, you know? But no, that's all like crane stuff or camera on - Interesting. It just feels a little bit more chaotic, I would say. Good. Well, you know, it should. I mean, it's - Or even during the protest sequence when everyone's sort of in each other's face at that moment where you feel like you've been thrust inside of a storm. Yeah. um that also just felt different oh good felt more well that's upsetting in a way yeah well you know i think i think if anything um i didn't i mean this was my first time working with darius and i i love him so much and obviously i you know i i get a kick out of the fact that i was that i just made a film with darius kanji he's you know a legend yeah he's one of the greatest to ever do it.

1:35:28And he's, and I was really surprised by what a, uh, what a sweet, like lovely open man he was. We, we became really close and, um, he was, I found him, especially for somebody who's, you know, older, he's really just, uh, just he's, he, he, he's, he, he wants to be taken somewhere. He's not, he's, he's not like in any way stuck in his ways. He's somebody who was excited to work with me on my terms. And I was really eager to learn whatever I could from him. But I just found that it was a really easy, fun collaboration. And it didn't feel much different from what I was doing before with Pavel. it was a very very similar dynamic um and uh yeah i would say you know i think the the way i the way we shot the film is not that different from how i tend to shoot uh if anything it was just the uh the limitations on uh you know world creation where like you know we we were just we wanted this thing to feel very real and be rooted in new mexico you know um and and that that that was its own fun challenge because I'm from New Mexico and I, and I, I, I know the States so well and, and, and there was so much I wanted to pack into the film.

1:37:04Um, but, but yeah, it was a textural thing. I just wanted it to have, uh, uh, wanted it to be just, just get rid of the artifice as much as I could, even, even though the film does kind of get gripped by its own paranoia and like kind of, uh, it go off the rails. Touches the absurd. Yeah, for sure. So I described it to a friend as Chayefsky with a machine gun. And I don't know. I'm curious how you actually see the world. Like, I really like Chayefsky's writing. And I find that you get to the conclusion of a lot of his best work. And it's usually that there is something very sour and broken in people because of the circumstances of society and like kind of what we've all built together.

1:37:53Yeah. and 2020 felt like that felt very chayefsky and i got to the end of this movie and i still i'm still kind of turning over in my head like does ari think that we are all fucked or that like maybe there is a little tinge of hope like do you consider yourself a hopeful person well you know so chayefsky i love and uh and i would say you know the one thing about chayefsky you know he's the greatest monologue writer of like the last whatever century. But I do find his work to be sometimes a little like sermonizing. Very much. Like to a fault. I think network falls into that. I think the hospital falls into that where like finally the point of the movie.

1:38:40Yes. He puts a thesis in the movie. And that's where he loses me. You know, and sometimes it's not political. Sometimes it's in Marty, you know, and I, which I love as well. Um, uh, and so that's something I did not want to do here, but I, I, but I mean, uh, I, I love those films, but you know, there's a, there's an element of Howard Beale in Patty Chayefsky. I wrote this film in like a state of anxiety and worry and fear. And I feel like that's a place that most of us are living in now. I feel totally powerless and everything feels like impossibly corrupt and just compromised. And it feels like we're living out this experiment that has obviously failed and nobody at the levers has any interest in slowing it down.

1:39:44In fact, it just keeps accelerating. so for me it's like i but i i i do wonder like what would an olive branch look like right and it like is there can there be some solidarity in just pulling back and collectively seeing the insanity of this moment and i don't know like i i we're all kind of unreachable to each other. And I, I, I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that, that we, we need to re-engage with each other somehow. Um, and, uh, you know, I, I, I don't know. I, I, I, I don't, I, I have a lot of hope, but I have very little confidence. Do you, I don't think that's what this movie is going to do.

1:40:41I don't think it's going to be an olive branch, but it's interesting to have that desire and for you to express that by making a movie like this, because there's part of me that at the end of this movie, I was like, there is no hope, you know, that this is all an absurd game that we're stuck inside of and we're probably going to lose. On the other hand, people do escape the pain in the movie in interesting and unique ways. I was trying to as we were three quarters of the way through the movie I was like is everyone going to die in this film is this that kind of movie and that's not quite what happens in the storytelling but I'm not sure what do you think that a movie like this can do should it alert people to this system that we're stuck in this moment in time this irretrievable feeling should it just be an exercise for you like an exorcism for you to get the feeling across like how do you think about what it what it means to put it in the world?

1:41:41I was trying to make a film that felt like that time to me and that feels like this country. And what I know is that when I see something reflected back to me that kind of in any way just confirms what I'm feeling, or it just makes me feel less alone. Right. And I, I feel like there's this like big retreat happening. Like we're retreating into the past, retreating into nostalgia or even into our trauma. Right. And I, I, here we are, like we're at this unprecedented moment. We're at the cusp of something. We're in the collapse of something, but we're on the cusp of something. Something new is coming as well.

1:42:36And I am afraid and I don't know where we're going and I want to see work that is reflecting that. So that's what I'm trying to do is I'm just trying to make a film about this moment in whatever way, like with the limited vantage point that I have, you know, I'm just trying to, you know. talk about it. And I think, you know, the film also is like sort of just like a narrative experiment of just like, okay, I'm going to create all these, I'm going to have all these different characters who are living in different corners, different realities. And when they start bumping up against each other, what comes out of that?

1:43:24You know, like what is the logic that comes out of that that grips all of them? And, you know, I'm doing it as a dark comedy western uh because that also gives me a sort of freedom to like uh to to to spin out of where we are and and you know use my imagination but i uh but you know in the end i also you know the movie is not like it's not like vegetables like i want i i want the film to be fun and uh exciting and surprising and you know it's a movie you know um so i i i hope i'm not uh sounding too lofty in any of this because i'm not you know no i don't think so at all i mean i think it is it's i thought it was very funny um but it is you will be asking people to put themselves back into a time that many people don't want to spend time with too yeah did you did you find yourself thinking about that do you worry about that with making a commercial art form like you do well you know in some ways I'm going back to that time and I'm it's not like really it's not a kitchen sink drama you know in some ways I'm going back to that time and I'm sticking like dynamite in it blowing it up you know so there's almost an aspect of like revenge in it I know what you mean tell me about how you're feeling about your career I think I've talked to you about after every movie yeah every film and I noticed something interesting the first two films are about grieving women and then the next two films are about these like wounded avatars of masculinity yeah interesting i don't know what's that what is what how did you get there i don't know yeah uh yeah there's no there's no strategy so it's hard to talk about it just sort of you know it's like um it they they felt like the right surrogates for those for those films.

1:45:28Yeah, this one obviously couldn't have been part of some grand plan because it is such a reflection of the times. But I'm sure I've asked you this before when we've talked about is there a certain kind of genre that you've ever wanted to make? I don't remember if you'd ever said, yeah, I'd like to make a Western one day and then a Western found you. But are you thinking at this point, okay, I've done a film like this. I've done a film like this. I'd like to try to do something that takes place in this world or in this kind of tone. You know, I've got sort of like a sequel I've been cooking up for Eddington.

1:45:58Wow. I've got a horror movie that I'm interested in doing. There's a sci-fi film. It's sort of an adaptation that I'm thinking about. So yes, you have a sort of a roadmap. Well, not a roadmap. I've got ideas. If anything, I'm trying to determine what the right thing is next. What about Square Peg? I've been closely following what you're choosing to produce, which I think is all really interesting, especially the next couple things that you... And I don't know how much you are an active participant in those projects, but I love the last Christopher Borgley movie. I'm very excited about the new one.

1:46:47He's great. I know you guys are on Yorgos' new movie in some way. Yeah, Begonia. Yeah. um how what part is that taking it up in your creative life now like what are you hoping to do with square peg uh i mean i'm i'm like i'm i you know that that's lars knutzen and i and and and we've got uh a couple other producers we work with um um emily hildner is is is it um is a producer that's at Square Peg, who we love. And I don't know. I see it as sort of just like a little, I don't know, like a clubhouse. It's great to be able to not get totally swallowed up by your own films and be able to work with other people and help them if you can help them.

1:47:43And a lot of these filmmakers are people that I grew up loving, you know, like we're working with Don Hertzfeld and we're working with Guy Madden and Evan Johnson and Galen Johnson and they're... Are you making a Don Hertzfeld movie? Well, we're... Yeah, it seems to be moving. I really... I'm excited about it. It's a brilliant script. It's one of the best scripts I've ever read, period. Okay. Done in the Don Hertzfeld, the like, I'm doing it all myself way?

1:48:14I don't want to say too much. Okay. Okay. Um, but it's such a big fan of this, but I will say I, it, it's, it's, uh, it's going to be amazing. Um, yeah, I, uh, and yeah, I mean, there, there's so many other filmmakers and I, uh, and we're just lucky we're working with Lance Oppenheim or working with, um, uh yeah i i'll i'll i it it's it's it's been great and uh can you give me an example of something that you do as a producer on a project like that because i think people hear that and they're like oh yeah that's a name attached to something but don't maybe don't understand the nuts and bolts of how you might participate well on some i'm more passive than on others you know Um, and I, I think, you know, sometimes it's just as simple as me, you know, sending the script around and, and, and writing letters to actors or, uh, to studios, um, or urging them to pay attention to it.

1:49:15Um, you know, I'm, I, I haven't been on the ground for any of these films. Um, so I've, I've been, if anything, just like, uh, uh, uh, a supporter and, um, and, and, uh, a champion and uh yeah i i i if any you know i i i would say that on my first film without getting into it i had a very bad experience with a with uh somebody um and it was horrible and uh it made the process of finishing the film like utterly joyless. I mean, that's, that's to say that that's an understatement. It was torture. Um, and I really, uh, I really liked the idea when Lars, my producer came to me with the idea of starting a production company.

1:50:17I really liked the idea of being a place where, uh, We would just kind of protect filmmakers. And if we get behind them, it's because we want them to have autonomy and make their film. I'm not going into the cut and imposing my will. If anything, I'm trying to protect them from that. If I can. But, you know, it's just, it's hard. It's hard out there. I've always been amazed by how you've been able to retain that for yourself. because you don't make movies that have traditional narrative expectation, I'll say. You're always kind of upending where we think we're going. But you have pretty consistently, it seems like, been able to make the movies that you want to make.

1:51:07Yeah, I've been really lucky. I've been lucky that I haven't had to really compromise the films. The argument in post is always about length. That's it. and just because I make you know big long unwieldy you know movies I like a novel you know yeah this one's shorter than the last one this one's this one's a lot shorter than the last one it's a and and I and I think this one's pretty tight yeah it was a it was a long process getting it to its final shape is there a lot that was conceived or even written that didn't make it into the movie? Oh, yeah. Other strands and ideas that just didn't fit?

1:51:56Characters, stories, I mean, and there are just a lot of scenes on the cutting room floor. But it's all shaping. That's all normal. Actually, there aren't that many scenes on the cutting room floor on this one, to be honest. It's mostly just, it's just been,

1:52:15it's just, you know, been made more efficient. So just... Saving it for the sequel. Trims. I get it. Yeah, well, the sequel, we'll see. It's not really a sequel. But there are returning characters. Okay. Do you see your movies as all happening in the same universe? A Tarantino-esque imagination? No, but they're all... I have my sense of humor and I like you know like I I notice things like oh I like I like to take a head off you know that's not going anywhere you do like to take a head off which also feels like the more I think about it the more that really does actually feel like a relevant image right now is an exploding head yeah I feel like and that's definitely I think as there's more than one headshot in this new movie oh yeah multiple headshots And really every character's head is exploding in this movie.

1:53:19Yeah. Yeah. Ari, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen? You're a cinephile. Last great thing I've seen. I just watched Adam Curtis's Shifty. Yeah. It's fucking amazing. I saw it too. So can you explain it a little bit for the audience? You don't have to explain what Adam does, but just this one in particular. Well, it's comprised of archival footage from basically the end of 1970s to the very end of the 20th century in England. And it functions kind of as like a mirror from the past where you just see where we are in what was happening then.

1:54:11um there's a lot of thatcher um and and and and a lot of it's it's it's it's really about how nobody knew what was happening uh especially the people in power who are kind of scrambling to hold on to their power but uh it had left them and in some ways they had forfeited it right like that the politicians had forfeited their power and it and it's really you know tech and finance that was taking everything over, which of course is where we are now.

1:54:46And, you know, Adam Curtis is just, he's a very sardonic commentator. Usually you have his voice. I was just going to ask you about this. How do you feel not having his narration in the movie? Well, the last one, Trauma Zone didn't have anything. Same thing, it's sort of like a five-hour expansive, nationally located, analysis of the end of the century. Yeah. And also just, just, just, you know, strictly comprised of archival footage. Yeah. And, you know, he's just an amazing editor and a really great storyteller and the connections he makes just by putting one video up against another, uh, the connections are just kind of brilliant and, uh, uh, provocative and exciting.

1:55:35And he's very funny. Um, and he's Trauma Zone didn't have any of the things that he likes to do. It had no music. It had none of that commentary. I watched it in a festival setting and it was kind of punishing in a good way because it was not what I was expecting. But Shifty, I think, if you've seen Trauma Zone, Shifty, you're ready for Shifty. Yeah, and Shifty feels to me very much like... I wouldn't say... For me, probably my favorite is Can't Get You Out of My Head. But this is a close second. And you still have his voice. It just shows up in text, but that also feels perfect because that's a language that the internet has kind of, especially Instagram, where everything has captions now, even when there's sound.

1:56:22And I don't know, he's using the language of the moment to tell these stories. And there's something very haunting and eerie and ghostly about what he's doing here. I loved Shifty. Everybody should watch it. It would be an interesting kind of, I don't know if it would be an appetizer because it's five hours long, but something to start with before going to your movie because they're in conversation with each other in some ways. Absolutely. Yeah, he's one of the great, one of the great filmmakers, thinkers, working right now. Just like you are. Thanks for doing the show. So, nice to see you. Good to see you.

1:57:04Thank you.

1:57:09Thank you to Ari Aster. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. We will see some of you live in Chicago. We are screening our number 14 entry in the 25 for 25 series, followed immediately by our conversation on the show. For non-Chicago listeners, we'll see you next week with a draft recorded live in Chicago. Are you excited? How are you feeling? I'm really excited. I got to pack. So I got a pack. Yeah. What are we doing in Chicago? What else are we doing? We are going to go to a Cubs game. Go to a Cubs game. I want to go to the Art Institute. I've never been to Chicago.

1:57:40This is my first time. Oh, that's right. And I'm getting some tips about where to get, you know, deep dish and stuff. But if there's anything else, like send us some recs. I could go use a restaurant recommendation. Okay. When are we going? That's a different combo. Yeah. Because we kind of have events. But that's okay. We'll work it out. Should we cancel the events? Yeah, probably. Just go to dinner? Okay. Thanks for listening. We'll see you soon. Thank you.