Best Picture Power Rankings and Brutal Honesty About ‘The Brutalist’

28:16He feels as unwanted, as hated, as misunderstood. And then that like sets up what's coming next with New York and nephew and niece are moving to Israel. And should they move to Israel as well or should they stick it out in New York? And so I do see him as basically like a restrained, a forcibly restrained artist who doesn't know how to talk. And so you don't get a lot of what you're, I think you're circling for. I think what I'm bumping on and it's not the performance and it's not the restraint, which all makes sense and which I think is like, frankly, magic. and like the pain and like the there's just almost like a a door to adrian brody's like heart that just like keeps open and closing without saying anything like it's really so phenomenal it's remarkable but you know on the one hand laszototh encounters like every single bad thing that like could ever happen i mean he does um and it is also true that like none of it is his fault, you know?

29:33Like it's all being done to him. But as a result, you don't see him make a mistake. You don't see, he's, well, he's like pretty inhuman in the sense of. He does feed his wife heroin to get her out of a spell and almost kills her. Yeah, but even that it's like, because she's in so much pain and that's, and that is also like where they get to have like an emotional connection. and he confesses like his deepest, darkest secret to her. And then like... This is like when I go shopping for Campari for you and my wife. There's so much Campari at your house. There's a lot right now. I was like, what's going on here?

30:13I mean, yeah, like he's not living like a perfect life, but even like, you know, his multiple hand jobs. The first one, he's got a thing he likes. Yeah, but that one, he like, The first one when he arrives in the U.S. And he's like, I don't really want this. You know, I just want the handjob because anything else would be too close. Because really, like, in the back of his mind, like, he still loves his wife, you know? He's getting bullied by his friend into getting a handjob. Yeah, and then, you know, he meets Gordon and he's like, well, I'm just going to stay in line overnight so that your kid can get some food, which is, like, a wonderful thing to do.

30:54But there is... there's like, there's, he has no flaws, you know? And I think even, even his terseness and his, his exacting idea of what this monument should be. I mean, again, he, you shouldn't throw like notebooks at other people, but otherwise that is presented. And I think we are meant to see it as like a, some, a commitment to something holy and bigger. Yes. And then what it is actually revealed to be, which is like we are trying he is he's so mad about the height of the ceilings because he's trying to recreate like the exact uh specifications of his cell at Buchenwald you're like okay so there is he's a little blameless and I find that I don't I found that limiting when I was watching it I was like when are you or it made me aware of of outside forces of the movie or something do You know what I mean?

31:55The associative quality that a filmmaker would imbue a character with that idea. And I was just like, okay, but I've been here for three and a half hours and like maybe you should make one mistake. I think it's extremely astute and you're not wrong. I think you can rationalize it as I have and will. I mean, heroin is bad. Don't do it. Yeah. I mean, he has a very bad temper. He's extremely emotionally closed off. He's downright awful to his wife when she comes to America. I would say he's not as quite as saintly as you're portraying it. But the idea that you have located is right, which is that this character is valorized in this world, which is mostly a broken, corrupt, grubby world.

32:34Yes. And if you look at the movies that this movie has been compared to, let's just use The Godfather because that's an easy way to explain it. Michael Corleone is not sympathetic. No, not at all. No. By the end of the first Godfather film, he's essentially the villain. And in the second Godfather film, he's sort of Satan. And obviously that is a choice that we make and we say, oh, well, then the filmmaker isn't associating himself specifically with that point of view. He's more elucidating the way that systems and families work and the way that the nation, you know, like imprints these ideas on us and makes us burn each other down.

33:12As opposed to an artist who is historically a more saintly figure, a figure that operates in solitude and creates something special that no one could understand but the artist. but that's what I believe too. I'm a person who talks about art for a living and likes it and wants to believe in the holiness of the act. So it doesn't really bother me. I guess I believe in the holiness of the art and not the act. Okay. And I... That's why I talk to the directors. Yeah. I mean, honestly it is because I do sometimes at some point get impatient with what is undeniably like a very hard thing to do. And there is a lot of work that goes into making anything.

33:57And, and that is just like the practical physical work, physical work before you deal with everyone else who's trying to make a buck off of you, which is the only way to get it out there, which like the, the impatience that Toth has for literally everyone else in his life is like inspiring to me. You know, I, I, I understand that. You are the brutalist. Yeah. So I, I understand all of that, but, And I get tired of listening to it because it doesn't affect, to me, the result is the result. You either get there or you don't. And maybe I'm prefiguring how I feel about things. I don't know. Maybe this is therapy.

34:35We're discovering it in real time. But I think— This is why this is such a special movie. This movie confronts you with all of these ideas and asks you to think about how you really feel about them. That does not happen at fucking The Fall Guide. I mean, I agree with you. I said all of that but I do also think I feel differently than what the movie is putting forth and it's like I again to me the I was thinking about this with like when you guys were talking about a complete unknown which is a very very different type of movie in a lot of ways but is at least you know it's about an artist and I've heard and interestingly doesn't take that saintly portrait yes and also I think to your frustration at least in the first conversation you had with Mal and Chris before you guys just like started like exchanging bootlegs.

35:24It doesn't explain anything about him and is maybe also like incurious and it really just does present him as like, well, this like intriguing and like undeniably like magically talented person just showed up. Yeah, a shadow swept into town. And I like that to me is exhilarating. Like that you just get presented with something and I do believe that like some people have genius and some people just don't and that is like part of what makes it genius and so I don't mean to diminish the struggle but this movie does also end by saying it's the destination not the journey so the holy thing at the end is more what matters to me than all of the whining.

36:09Do you want to talk about Erzhebet, Jofia and where the movie goes in the end? Is there anything in the first half that you want to talk about anymore? I mean, we haven't said the name Guy Pearce. Oh, yeah. Well, we said Harrison Van Buren. I want to talk about Guy Pearce again when we talk about whose movie is this. I guess we mentioned there were several other characters in this movie that, to me, are—they have less weight to carry, and so they are more vivid. And, I mean, Guy Pearce, like, steals this movie for a huge portion of it. and and and I do think there was something telling that like the the character the character and the portrait of the the evil venal businessman or like the interloper the person getting in your way is to me like instantly indelible and the the saintly artist guy is kind of like well we're like feeling out how where we feel about him but like the movie knows who that who the guy Pierce is 100 % I wrote this the first time that it was that this is a very real thing when an extremely powerful person comes into your life and they can immediately seduce and if they want to, destroy you because of what you're willing to give them because you start imagining what they could create for you.

37:25Right. He, Corbet, nailed something with that construction and found the right actor who had the right mix of charm and insidious underbelly but also so funny. Yeah. Like you can't, you're supposed to laugh. Yeah, of course. He's supposed to be such a ridiculous, hilarious character. And like, And I mean, just his booming American voice, which we know, you know, is not his natural register. Also, Joe Alwyn, like the way those guys are hitting their R's, you know, it's like it is almost like a parody of Americans that is perfect. Like that is that is how the Americans in this movie should be speaking, you know.

38:07So, I mean, I can't believe that Guy Pearce is not going to win an Oscar. Like he kind of walks away with the movie for me. I think a real pain not being nominated for Best Pictures throws a slight monkey wrench in there. However, I think that would mean Edward Norton would win, but that's a whole other conversation. Right. Yes. We've been doing a lot of Complete Unknown in my house. Oh, interesting. Yeah, but Knox just wants, he's just like, like a Rolling Stone, please. Like two minutes in. An hour and 20 minutes into the movie. I was like, that's sort of the whole point of the movie.

38:38Anyway, the other characters and the other performances. I mean, are you ready? Should we talk about it? Absolutely. I felt like you went in, though, looking for Kitty Oppenheimer. And did you find her in the performance by Felicity Jones? Not in the construction of the character. Okay. In the performance, I mean, yes. You didn't think it worked? Not at all. Yeah. People have been pretty split on this. And I know Adam had it right when she was just sort of for my money, like, disastrously miscast. And you mentioned that an earlier version of this movie had a whole cast of actors who I think would have been wrong except for Marion Cotillard as Erzabed, and that clicked the character, the second half of the movie, in just like...

39:29Yeah, but she was already the star of The Immigrant, which is, like, such a close call. Adrienne Brody was also already the star of The Pianist. Very true. Like, what are you doing? Very true. Good point. I Felicity Jones seems like a wonderful person and has just like never really been the actor for me yeah and like I think even when I heard the cast I was like really? are we you know before the re-speecher controversy came out you know about the fixing I had heard people had said to me I don't I have no idea if this is true or not that her ability to learn Hungarian was like unmatched that people were like I don't know how she did this because she's speaking in a language that is incredibly difficult to learn.

40:13Right. And, you know, Brody, I guess, had the advantage of having a Hungarian mother and, you know, his grandfather and he at least had heard the language a lot and she had not and she just learned how to speak it in the movie and people were like, what the fuck is this? This is crazy how she pulled this off. But I do think that she has a little bit of the black licorice thing for some fans where you're just like, I don't buy her in movies. Can I just say something? And this is related to Reese Feature and I know I'm a proponent of the, that you gotta sing to win the Oscar. And I think that's really true.

40:41Everyone talking about learning lines of a different language, even a language as difficult to pronounce as Hungarian, is the same as learning how to sing. I mean, they're memorized. Most of this is just written out in letters. Look at you, caping for Monica Barbaro, just so blatantly. Well, I am caping for Monica Barbaro, like so hard. But what are we talking about? She learned Hungarian. No, she memorized lines, you know? Are you sure she doesn't understand it? I'm not sure. Do we have any clips of her doing press in Hungary? Let's call her right now. Felicity, what do you think? I don't know.

41:15Say Amanda is so wrong in Hungarian. Am I out of line here? No, no, I don't think you're out of line. I think it's more people could probably learn the foreign language if you're reading it off of a letter than could just learn to sing out of nowhere. I think there's a more inherent talent that you're tapping into that is a little bit harder. but also like it's not just reading lines right? Like you have to understand the intent behind it to be able to put the right inflection and the right performance. Well I have to be honest Bobby some of the line readings in both Hungarian and English I didn't really feel brought the craft that I have come to expect from the brutalists.

41:49Many people agree with you. I'm with you. I never tripped on this at all. I don't I really didn't feel like I was watching a performer who was out of her depth or didn't fit in the movie and I don't know maybe I just like her as an actor. It's one of those things where this is just pure subjectivity. And maybe I don't like these characters either. Like, these characters, I mean this and Amy Adams in The Master, which, you know, I'm a little bit with Adam in the ones, like, two hand jobs, including one very angrily given by, like, a cross wife. We all need a supplicant. Yeah. I see the influence.

42:27And I guess... How wonderful. It's not... I mean, that's great. You're right. Like, seeing movies is good and liking movies. And jobs. We've all been there. It happens. You know, it's part of life. It does. It's a part of life. But, I mean. Don't look at me. Why are you looking at the camera at me? We're just talking here. Yeah. But I don't know. What was I really supposed to get from that character? And, like, I just, I'm, you know, she's got her own career. and she deals with losing her life, like, you know, like, not her actual life, but her job and her family and everything in a very different way.

43:07And she takes just, you know, she's writing like a women's column and because that's the only journalism job she can get in America and she wants to go back to Israel to be a grandmother. I guess there are different ways of dealing with trauma and that's what is being illustrated. I think that that's probably just a representation of the way that America viewed women and that it's not this, you know, evolved, sophisticated land of equality that a woman who would be as well-educated as she is at Oxford, who has a more sophisticated job in her native country, comes here like so many immigrants who come here and are asked to do less than what they are capable of in order to make a living.

43:47That's what that stands for. I think in the movie, they're meant to be a team. And you see the way that she charms Van Buren and almost navigates that relationship on his behalf because he doesn't have those tools. And you could see a world in Hungary where she did that for him. And that's something that you see a lot of great artists have a partner. The producer wife or the producer partner. Sure, yeah. Which is a very common thing including on this movie. Yes, and Brady Corbet's partner who is also a filmmaker. Who knows who is who in these relationships. But I don't know. I watched that and I was like this actually is how it is.

44:19Anytime I meet like a power couple one person has one job and the other person has the other job. And that was how I understood the character. Now, we get less time with her because she only comes in in the second half of the movie. Right. So if we're concerned about developing Laszlo, she's even less developed. I mean, we don't really know anything about her other than what she shares to Van Buren. So it's never going to be as deep a character. If you don't like the performance, I can't argue that. Yeah, I really, I don't like it. And I think it's just so uneven in terms of the presence. Like, if you buy him as much as I buy Brody as Toth and you don't buy her, than the entire concept of the characters and whatever equality or power couple, like we're a team that is meant to be communicated, just kind of...

45:05Didn't hit. It doesn't happen. Okay, so I wrote about this on Letterboxd. Oh, good. I'm going to tell you about it right now. I guess you have not seen it then. You haven't been keeping track. Jophia. Yeah. Who is the niece. Yes. Who is the daughter of, is it Laszlo's sister? Yes. Laszlo's sister. and sounds as though she has died. And so she is then paired in Dachau with Phyllis Jones's character. And she is mute for the entirety of the film until the end. No, until she's pregnant and is like, I'm going to Israel. Until she goes to Israel. She's the first character we see. She's portrayed by Rafi Cassidy, who is also in Vox Lux, who is also in White Noise.

45:48First and last. First and last person that we see in this film. I obviously noticed that the first time I saw the movie well not really honestly I probably didn't think hard enough about it but it occurred to me and I think this is the intention is that this is a movie that is told from her perspective and that the reason the movie ends the way that it does and she has the last word and she is the one who interprets the work of the artist is it's a literary device the way that you might have a connected family member telling the tale of a great member or a couple in a family. And I don't know why that didn't occur to me the first time, but it completely alters my perspective on the film because she is a person who moves to Israel and who is a Zionist and who sees opportunity to communicate her politics and her faith through these works of art and this life story.

46:46And that doesn't mean that that is what the movie is about. It means it's something that people do. And it's something that people use art to do, the same way that Harrison Van Buren uses art to make a gymnasium, and the city forces him to make a church. And so it's all of these influences that encroach upon what an artist wants to do. Now again, that only flatters the thing that you're saying is kind of annoying, which is that this is like a perfect portrait of an artist. but maybe it also complicates it because maybe Jophia is creating an act to honor her uncle, who she sees as such an important person in the story of art and her faith.

47:27So there's a reason he's not flawed. Also, the other thing too is that she has met every main character in this movie, which I find interesting. Like when she comes into the film, like everything she's communicating, it's like it can be rationalized it can be logicked. Yeah I don't think your interpretation is wrong and I think it is probably right I mean it is undeniable that the first shot is of her in a room somewhere in Hungary we assume. Seemingly as raids are happening. Right and not only does the epilogue close with her but they flash back to that exact room So you're meant to go back to it.

48:10I think that the way the character is handled in the intervening three hours just does not communicate that device and perspective effectively enough for me to, for it to land. And that may not be the intention. It's just my read. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you don't watch it the first time. And because, I mean, there's so much in between that you, and it happens so quickly. It's just so much movie. Yeah. And it doesn't land. And to go back the second time, if you're looking for it, you can kind of piece it together. But I don't know if that is fully developed, to be quite honest. which is sort of which is my larger issue with the ending which is like cool ideas that I don't that I think are kind of like tacked on almost in like a super well okay so I mean let's talk about the ending that is that's more about the epilogue you know like I wrote in here where does this movie turn for you and like maybe it doesn't turn for you I had a couple instances where I was like huh this is interesting the first is when felicity jones shows up and you know and there is like that delineation from part one and part two and i think part one is like pretty unassailable part two felicity jones shows up and i'm like well this is interesting and i you know i wonder if this is how this you really meant for this to go but i'm i'm gonna keep going on with it and then there's the the carrera trip which that was tough because as soon as they do that shot of the quarry.

49:59And I was just like, this is the best thing I've ever seen in my entire life. Mr. Marble Dude is my number one film character of 2024. Yeah, the Italian anarchist. Shout out to him. And gives like an incredible speech about the only time he's left the quarry is to like go beat Mussolini's body with his dead hands. And he's got like that immaculate sweater and the hair. Yeah. And you know, when he shows up late and he's like, I will go take a coffee and then we'll go. I mean, listen. Guy Pierce rolls his eyes. like incredible loved it would you give give up a few fingers to have that guy's swag yeah yeah because he earned it may I also like age as well as he does you know the blocks are beautiful yeah he's doing great and and then they're partying and you know this is all part of the plan though right like he draws you in he's like I'm gonna give you the beautiful imagery and then yeah okay now I'm gonna hit you okay and so and so then Van Buren rapes Laszlo Toth And here is my reaction sitting in the theater.

51:01As soon as I heard the pants on buckling, I was just like, oh no, like don't, but not in like a, I want to protect this character. Like this is, he's been through too much. You know, this is like a horrible thing to witness. Too bold and obvious a stroke. I was just like, what the fuck? Like, what are you guys doing?

51:18And I, watching it a second time, like I've obviously thought a lot about it. And the way that sex is used in the movie is notable and clearly trying to set that up or at least like the exploration of like sex is power did you know you know which then gets really really literalized like i we need another word beyond literalized for the i i guess met adam namen's meta five was it's very good um and i So I do understand, at least structurally, what they're trying to do in terms of the sexual dynamics between each character in the film is explored, including Zofia and Harry, a .k.a. Joe Allen, who just, I mean, hats off to that guy for just being the worst man in every movie that he takes on.

52:12He does it willingly, and then he's just like cinema. It's almost like filmmakers saw him in his real life and thought, is this the worst man in the world? Let's put it to the test. No, he got dumped for what's his name? What's that guy? Mattie Healy. Yeah, Mattie Healy. So that's not his fault. Okay. Listen, you know, now she's dating Travis Kelsey and we got to do that whole Super Bowl thing again. Whatever. Not his fault. but so everybody has a weird awkward um memorable sex scene that is meant to communicate something about where they are in life and how they or their bodies are are being used or violated you know like like i get it i i felt throughout that the sex scenes were like a little bit more shock value than character developed.

53:05Like, they were always just, like, way weirder than they needed to be, you know? Which, like, sure, you can go for it, but... That's my tempo. What can I say? You know, well, it's just kind of like... Sex can be a very weird thing. It's gilding. I mean, sex is weird, but it's like, at some point, I was like, okay, you guys are really trying to let me know that there's, like, some weird sex stuff going on here. Well, okay, so I definitely had the same thought in the first hand job. I was like, interesting. that is the base of this man's dick. Like, they're just like, they're just going to show, this is that kind of a movie.

53:36Like, very early on, it's like, this is a European film. This is not an American movie. Like, we're going to... The handjob's fine. The first handjob, I was like, okay, that's fine. It's not something you would see most American movie stars do. Totally. What happens in that sequence. Totally. And so, I think it's trying to say to you, like, strap in. This isn't, this is not a Robert Zemeckis movie. Right. You know what I mean? But I'm talking more about, like, his, you know the old timey porno that he goes to see in the middle and I was like okay cool yeah I think yeah to me I mean you could probably be like the second hand job where I was like alright alright I too like the films of PTA and the Zophia I guess that one that one's okay that's just like that's relatively subtle they don't show it they don't show anything yeah yeah yeah but it's communicated pretty clearly yeah there's something kind of forcible and awkward going on with Harry You know, I guess in the way that this movie is like doing it all, all of the time, it's really doing it all.

54:34But anyway, so tonally, or I guess in terms of we are going to make explicit the explicit, I guess the rape makes sense. It's just not a subtle movie. And it's not a subtle gesture to have the evil capitalist patron rape the artist. that is the most you could literalize it to your point, one of the core ideas of the movie, and he chooses to do so. The case that I would make is that many of the films that we consider great films and many of the reasons why we remember these great films tend to do these things. They tend to have very big, clearly communicated gestures. These are not subtle, ambiguous, quiet films.

55:19they're films about desperation and confusion and violence and so when you go down the list of movies that are clearly influences on this movie and when you go down the list of like the epic which is what this movie is in the tradition of they all have this shit i don't i don't disagree but i and and so like structurally it is in keeping with the rest of the film i don't know Well, like my reaction in the moment and my reaction walking out was like, well, OK, you know, and that's that's where it turned. And then it moves very quickly. And suddenly. Now, this is where I bumped. Yeah. And still bump.

55:58OK. Is heroin to the dinner scene. The dinner scene. The dinner scene sucks. This is the weakest part of. And I don't know. I think that like the resolution of the dinner scene and like Harrison Van Buren's ambiguous but like pretty clear death I think that's why that scene happens because you need to get to that yes and that does make sense but like why is she just like even her dialogue and again maybe it's the poor when she's like you are an evil rapist in that weird accent and I was like well let me tell you Felicity Jones is not built for this yeah and it's it is the weakest part of a movie that to that point has made bold moves that I've been like wow I can't believe they did that but the whole time I was there I was in it I was not distracted at all and then when that scene happened I was like gosh I hope this isn't the last scene in the movie because this would be a terrible way to end this movie that I'm loving I see it as like it's cement in the construction and there needed to be an event that would traumatize Harrison that would reveal him and traumatize him and this is the best that they could come up with.

57:09Yeah, but it's like the plot mechanics are like really showing and it's showing both narratively and in execution. I mean, at least the Felicity Jones of it. Once like Joe Owen is going upstairs and the camera's following him and they're searching for him and even Great wonder there by the way and they're following him up the stairs and the camera's like the technical stuff in this movie is crazy. And his performance and like the suggestion that it's not unfamiliar your behavior. He knows. Yeah, they know. Yeah, that they know. But again, that is just, it's a suggestion. The movie communicates without being like, beat the drum literal.

57:45You know, that sometimes subtlety actually does work for me, even in a movie like The Brutalist. So it doesn't work. And that kind of pretty quickly after the rape, you're kind of like, all right, these these plot points are like rolling up pretty quickly and things are getting dire and also obvious and you know and in the middle they shoot up and she almost dies and that's bad I'm glad she didn't die you know but it's also like okay now we've just added an overdose into this like okay alright shit's bad I mean people have pain and they're trying to they're trying to handle their pain you know me too I have a severe hip flexor strain.

58:33I'm taking a lot of Advil. You know, I'm doing my best. This is life. I threw my neck out the other night. This is 40. It was like, I was like, oh God, I'm never gonna be able to walk again. I know exactly how you feel. Yeah. It's okay. I got a new pillow and a heating pad and we're back in business. I'm very happy for you. So that all happens. And I'm, so I'm just trying to like my mind state. You teed up the epilogue here. Yeah. So, but so I would say that the last 30 minutes and when I rewatched it, I was kind of like watching the clock. And it's the last 30, or, you know, except for the epilogue, last 30 minutes.

59:08And it's just, it's making really big strokes really fast. Yes. And then the epilogue. Okay. So, first of all, the epilogue is at the Venice Bienniale. So, A+. I was like, oh, I know where in Venice you are. I love Venice. I thought, as I was watching the movie, there's no way Amanda can hate this. And also, I was joking about you performing the disco, but that shit rules. That's really funny and good. I have a real spot for Italian disco. All the variations on the score throughout the film are really smart. The score is magnificent. The score is incredible. So Venice, that's cool. It's great.

59:56And then out comes Zophia, who you don't totally understand as Zophia right away because Raffi Cassidy is recast as her daughter. It's played by Arianne Labed. Right. And so it's she is giving the speech and you're trying to figure out in like real time what is going on, which is very cool. but and I like I like that aspect of it and in many ways is the opposite of just like the last 30 minutes of yelling at you of like okay and now there's a rape and now there's an overdose and now there's a suicide and now everyone's yelling but it is revealed that the well that Toth is being honored at the Israeli pavilion which seems to indicate that he did eventually follow Erzabet to Israel, even though she's not there.

1:00:49It's 1980, so some time has passed. She was not in good health. He has been designing buildings, which we see via some sketches, now infamous. You also see their locations, so they're almost all built in the United States in the 70s. Yes. A lot in Connecticut. it yes and the which is where the attila's wife is from who we didn't talk about at all i liked them um i mean i didn't like them as people but that those were some great scenes another first half of the movie yeah and another and and and well not a lot of sexual stuff going on there but but a huge theme of the movie yes but the insane desire of artistic people and the way that when we get close to artistic people we get more turned on because they can access something We can't.

1:01:39She just lied and danced around as opposed to, you know, fully hit over your head. True, but the same way that like there's something that makes us hate ourselves for how attracted we are to certain things. And like that's what that whole scene is about, you know, where she's like hot for him, but she can't help make fun of his nose and she can't help, you know, lie about him making a pass. And the same is true for Harrison and his relationship with Laszlo. Like this is good stuff in the movie. I like that stuff. Yeah, of course. But like, you understand my point. I do. These people want to fuck.

1:02:12What's the problem here? That's great. Everybody wants to fuck. That's cool. Listen, all I want are movies where it's like two people want to fuck. But even in that, I tend to prefer the ones where they fuck immediately after the movie ends. As opposed to, I like the foreplay, is I guess what you could say. Okay. And they finished the community center. We know that in the epilogue. Because it's shown in a drawing that may or may not have been drawn by AI. The only things that were completed or were sketched by AI are in the video. Oh, okay. It is behind him or behind her while she's giving the speech.

1:02:48Apparently everything that we see while they're walking through the hallway was drawn by artists. Okay, that's good. That's good. Okay. And then she starts into her speech, her tribute to her uncle, adopted father, more or less. And you are right that it is very pointed and political. And whether or not she is infusing her own interpretations or whether it is just the intent of the thing. is unclear. It is deeply ambiguous what the intention is. But she reveals in her telling of it, which when you're watching it for the first time, you're just kind of like, OK, so I guess this is what happened, especially after 30 minutes of just rapid plot being thrown at you.

1:03:34That's like, OK, well, this was actually all designed as a tribute and a recreation of his time at the concentration camp. And then she's like, he did it. Ta-da. It's the destination, not the journey. And then one of the greatest song cues of all time. One for. One for you, one for me. By La Bionda, the Italian disco. Yes. Speaking of Italian disco. So I walked out of the movie. It was very late. I think I made what can only be described as an Amanda emoji as I walked out just to myself. I was just like, okay. Like, gotta go find my car. It's not a good movie to have no one to talk about afterwards.

1:04:16No, and I was like, all right. I think in the moment I found the treatment of... the Holocaust tribute as like a reveal to be in poor taste. The first time I saw it, I thought it was genius, but I was like, oh, they treated this like a reveal. Yeah. I've come to understand it totally differently. And, but, you know, most people will see this movie once, so. A hundred percent. So it's important. When I talked to Adam about it, he was like, the artist is a smuggler. We love that idea. He smuggled in all these ideas. Right. Which he may have, but Laszlo does not talk during the epilogue. In fact, he's in a wheelchair and it appears as though he's infirmed in some way and maybe unable to communicate, which would allow Joffia to speak on his behalf with her own intent.

1:05:03And that's all fine, but it's in the span of about five minutes at the end of a three and a half hour movie. And then it hits to one for them, one for you, one for me, which like maybe that's from the perspective of Zofia but I like don't think so no I think it's from the perspective of Brady Corbet flipping his fingers off at the people who pay for movies right but I and that old canard about what directors do and what actors do sure but it you also just have to connect it to the discussion of the art that came immediately before it and the and the artist as smuggler and this this project that he was you know laboring for so long and also you know had to build a church in the middle of was actually like a reconstruction of his pain and also his love for his wife which like okay um certainly some gilding of the lily there right so my my instant reaction was like i i think that's in poor taste like much in the way that like you know 9-11 shows up in box lux along with everything else and I'm like okay sure if you want like that just that grab bag of let's let's use the greatest horrors in history for my own narrative like this guy starred in the American remake of Funny Games you know what I mean like this the cinema of confrontation of like of transgression is obviously something he loves he's doing it over and over again he's trying to upset you he's trying to make you go like ugh they just raped him?

1:06:41You know, like he's, that's the intent. Yeah, but I don't go ugh. Like, I'm not like, wow, how transgressive. Or like, gross choice. And like, how dare you. Or the world is gross. Whatever your takeaway is. Like, I think. No, my takeaway is like, come on. Like, Mr. Highfalutin, you're like trying to do like one of these great things and like, no, you didn't nail that. Sorry. I like respectfully, your britches are too big for whatever's going on with you. And that's, you know, maybe that can lead us to like the final thing of, does it, does the movie have to stick the lid? Well, I don't know. Let's talk about the ending a little bit more.

1:07:18Do you see it in any particular way? Yeah. The. The epilogue in particular. I mean, that is the thing that for people who have seen the movie more than once for Oscar voters, I guess, you know, like the movie is, it's not been widely seen yet. You know, it's, I think it's only in like 800 theaters or something. It's done actually really good business, but this is never going to be a movie that, as you say, people, like millions of people will see five times. Right. For a variety of reasons. But it's incumbent on us when you get a big juicy piece of steak to like dig in. So I think I understand it a little bit more the second time around.

1:07:58and now that you've had the warning of, because once you see it the second time and you're reminded, oh, right, it starts with Zophia. It starts with, and I think the last sentence of that scene is we want to make sure we get you to your proper home or something that is about like your home in like a very sinister way. And so this idea of what is home and can there be a home for anyone and all of these things becomes resonant and is resonant in the epilogue. Her character is more or less abandoned until two hours in, she gives one speech about Jerusalem. And I just, I still, I still think like my first viewing of it and just being like, okay, is going to be how a lot of people feel.

1:08:49And like it has to be because you only get one shot with someone with a three and a half hour movie. And I also, So even if it is about her and she's the narrator, but like, okay, so what does that mean? Like, what, how does that, what does that change for you? It means that no matter what an artist does, people always use what they do to their own ends. Like that, I think is a huge part of the intention of that entire experience. And that there is all as much pomp and circumstance as necessary before a project begins, as much as as necessary after it ends. that like to be in the world of arts, especially at this high level, you are constantly being evaluated and reevaluated and used.

1:09:32And that might be - I can't give a fucking break. I mean, honestly, you know, I have no patience for like, as a long project of art, I'm like, I'm sure that that's true. Like that's tough, you know? You also got to make the movies. Sure, yeah. I don't know. I mean, he has been - Is the movie good enough that - He has been very circumspect about whatever happened on Vox Lux. It's obvious. They wrote this in the immediate aftermath of that movie being released. I don't know if he didn't get final cut. I don't know if they made him change a lot of things. It clearly pissed both of them off, him and his partner Mona.

1:10:07And so this being the thing that they threw themselves into, the only reason that you're being like, come on and being frustrated by it is because this movie might win Best Picture. If this was just an independent movie and A24 didn't buy it. No, I don't think that's true. It's because I, first of all, because I saw Vox Lux. And second of all. Well, maybe it wasn't the movie he wanted you to see. And second of all, because it asks for three and a half hours of my time. And it does want me to think about it. And so there we go. So that's the thing. It gets me asking all of these questions. I'm engaged in it.

1:10:38It's obviously an achievement on so many levels. Performance, craft, like ideas. The, just the, the conversation around it, which, and I, and I don't mean the brutal boys. I mean like people who have seen the movie wanting to talk about it and me wanting have been like waiting for two weeks to talk to you about it. I is it still is is something that is so ambitious. Still great if it can't land its own plane. And you think it lands its plane. I'll give you the dumbest answer I can give you. Yeah. I gave this movie four and a half stars. OK. That's the dumbest way to answer it. At some point, I just am mad at all of you for being on your wavelength of conversation.

1:11:24And I understand that. But the truth is that I think that this is a movie that has flaws. But relative to the movie year that we just had, it's a movie that exceeds others in my view. Yeah. Despite those flaws. Yes. And that's how I've always thought about things. Totally. It might be sports brained and stupid. but I grew up reading Roger Ebert and I was trained to think in certain systems. And the same way that the Oscar race is foolish and all art is subjective, a movie like this, very few movies allow for the possibility of conversations like this on the show. Totally. To me, that's like a massive achievement.

1:12:01Am I grading movies against my very own particular personal experiences? Yes, so is every person alive. So is everyone all of the time and we should all be more explicit about that, honestly. So to answer your question, can this movie be great even if it's not fully great, not 100 % great? Yes, because no movie is. Yes. I mean, so I agree with that. I have been thinking a lot about, like, if I had seen it and if I had done a proper top five list. Where would it sit? Yeah, where would it sit? I think Chris put it at four. And, well, and would it sit? Because I agree with everything you're saying.

1:12:35And in the context of this show and, like, being able to talk about things, like, God bless them. Like, amazing stuff. And also, like, it's very good. And it's definitely one of the better movies that I saw for the calendar year 2024. I do think that there is something embedded in it that is about greatness and certainty to bring in another Best Picture contender. And, you know, it's like, if you're going to go for it, like, then you set the standard high. Like you have to go for it. Think about it like this. This is helpful, I think. Was Challengers number one for you? No, Anora was. Anora was, sorry.

1:13:18Was Challengers two? Yes. Okay. So Challengers was three for me. And Challengers for both of us was a joy machine. That does not mean it's a flawless movie, but you would put Challengers over the Brutalist in part because you think about what the movie's trying to do. Is this fair to say? Right. And versus what it accomplishes. And so the Brutalist is reaching for something that maybe it cannot achieve, but it is reaching. Whereas Challengers, which is great, its ambitions are lower. They're still way above most of what we do here, but it is lower. And so how we grade these things, how we canonize them or not, is so complicated because that intention that I keep circling back to, people are like, don't talk about the intention.

1:14:04What is the movie? Look at the text. I don't live in that world. I'm never going to live in that world. Well, I'm also using the intention, but I think this, this self-reflection in, in the movie and the self-referential nature of it and the intention and these, and maybe it's a little bit like, you know, I read the character of Lazlo La, like slightly differently. I tried to, you didn't hear this, but I tried to get Corbet and he did kind of associate himself with Van Buren too. Yeah. To say like how much of you, I think I asked him specifically how much of you is in Van Buren because Van Buren is incredibly charming.

1:14:37Yes. And an autodidact and a bit of a weird guy. I think Brady is incredibly charming and a bit of an autodidact and a little weird. Right, right, right. And I say that with affection, but, you know, to write a character like that, you got to be able to channel it. So if you think of the movie in this more multifarious way where it's like, sure, he's Laszlo. Absolutely. But is he also not Erzhebet? Is he when he is being the supplicant to his wife when she's directing her movie? I'm not even talking about, like, who he is in the movie. like the movie as like its belief in like an artist you know and like the artist is the holy person you don't love that you don't love that you've never loved that since I've known you and as I said when we're talking about it like for me it's not the artist it is the art it is the final product it is like did you nail it and then a fascinating thing about this movie is that like Laszlo did but because of the budget of the film like you know like they can't build it we can't see it you know yeah a 20 million dollar building yeah right Right.

1:15:36So I think it's that strain and that argument of the movie that keeps me from, that I disagree with in the text of the movie and that also kind of holds me back and being like, well, but you know, it really, it turned. Like it just, it did. Let me ask you a question that I've thought about a few times. Do you think a lot of the details of this kind of discussion will fall away and this film will go into the canon? That's a great question. And does it matter if it wins Best Picture or not? If it loses Best Picture, is it more likely to go into the canon? Whatever that is, however loosely you define that.

1:16:18Well, who's canon? Yeah, I mean, I can't totally answer that. It's like our canon or like AFI's top 100, you know? Cut the intersection of both. You know, the way that we remember Chinatown, you know? Right. I'm not saying it's as good as Chinatown, but just the way we remember. Another movie that I would say has flaws. Perfect script, great performances, has flaws in my opinion. Okay. Listen, I know that you're just preemptively yelling at people on the internet. I know. I got to stop doing that. I know. But that's fine. You're always allowed to find flaws in things on my watch. It's been so easy for us to say the social network, Masterpiece, because it lost Best Picture to the King speech.

1:16:59And so not only is it the synthesis of all these things we love, it's also weirdly an underdog now relative to the way that movie history is codified by awards. I guess so, though I think the thing that has made the social network great is that, I mean, it's less that it lost Best Picture and more that Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook continue to be Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook. That has helped. That has helped. I think it's both. But anyway, ultimately, what do you think? It is a long movie that's hard to see in the intended format. and I think that it might just not I don't even if it wins Best Picture I don't think it will be seen as widely as many of the other movies that you just mentioned so I don't know like in a film nerd canon I think it's probably like in you know in the new film nerd canon it's probably already there I I think that's the thing is yeah we think canons are made by the old but they're really made by the young yes and young people by and large that I've heard from love this movie.

1:18:02In part, because it's the first movie of its kind that they've gotten since they've been alive, since they've been interested in movies. Because movies like this don't come around very often. They can also acknowledge that it has flaws. They're not saying it's perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I just hear from a lot of listeners of the show who are under 25, under 30, and they're like, brutal boys, let's go. Assemble. Let's do this, you know? And God bless them. They care about movies and they want to see something. Yeah. They want to see somebody try to make something great. And so because of that, I think, I mean, we watched this this year specifically with Interstellar.

1:18:32Interstellar having a 10-year anniversary, getting re-released, doing great business at the movie theater with the re-release. You know, that's a movie that you and I, we were like a little older when it came out and a little more skeptical of. But if you were 18 when it came out, or 10, or even 25, you'd have a totally different relationship to it. And so my gut is that it will be. I think so too. Especially if it loses to Amelia Perez. Yeah, we have to talk about Nosferatu, but then we'll come back to whether it's going to lose to Amelia Perez. Yes. Can I quickly add something about what I think the movie is doing?

1:19:10And we're focusing a lot on the artist-patron dynamic because of the format of it being cinema. And we know, and Brady's talking about that a lot, so that is unavoidable to characterize the discussion. But I also think part of it, him and Mona, the script itself, just textually speaking, like they're interested in that being the lens with which this just unravels what america is like you guys didn't even talk about a lot of like the b-roll that they were using about pennsylvania like pennsylvania is america it's like urban it's suburban it's agricultural it is the state that i think the lore around it most accurately represents what like the american dream would to be sold to an immigrant coming particularly who was in the like escaping the Holocaust in Buchenwald, like one of the camps that America did liberate eventually.

1:19:57And so like, I do think that a lot of the stuff that we're talking about, like Laszlo has to kind of be a cipher. And I agree with you, Amanda, that I actually was hoping to like occupy his mind a little more by the end of the movie. But I also think that that's kind of the point, like what he says early on in the movie, like the materials are supposed to show themselves. Like that is the philosophy behind brutalism. Like cement is great. I don't care if you can see it. It is great for building buildings. And Laszlo actually says that. And so I think he ends up being a little bit kind of like a mirror for America.

1:20:30Like Van Buren is just America rolled into one character. He's all of the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything in between. The repression, especially, because the relationship with his mom, it's sort of implied that there's something sexually repressive going on in that. And I think that like, we get caught up in this dynamic because it's like, okay, this is a movie. And we can kind of think about the fact that there's an artist being represented in the movie as like a metatextual version of the movie itself. But also like, I think that they were swinging at something so huge and that's what I really loved about it.

1:20:57And that's what Sean, what you're alluding to is like, we don't get a lot of movies that are actually trying to like take down the totality of what America is. And that first lasting image of the Statue of Liberty, I do think that that is sort of setting the expectation. Like I'm going to flip America on its head by the end of this movie. I think you're, I think you're, it's a totally accurate and insightful reading. I think if you're ungenerous to the movie and you think that the artist is self-interested primarily in the creation of the movie, that the idea of America and American capitalism as this like all-consuming and destroying force is used in the same way that the Holocaust and Jewish identity is used, which is as a vector for a personal feeling.

1:21:40And if you are ungenerous, that's what you would say. Form follows function. It certainly does. and you know Anora a much smaller movie in scale in some ways is about the same thing that you're describing it's about the relationship between labor and wealth it's about the relationship between sex and power they're the same movie in so many ways and there is like these transgressions against this character that we love who isn't innocent and perfect but also flawed and how flawed and are they flawed enough I don't know we can debate that but that mode of a story I will slightly disagree with you that that idea comes across a lot in independent cinema.

1:22:18The idea that we are being crushed by the system that we are forced to live under is quite common. The way that it's communicated in this movie is not common. It's hard to do and complicated, and it's also being suffused with all these other ideas that we're talking about, about integrating into the American idea. I totally agree with you about all the archival and the using Pennsylvania, and I think I rattled off the list of famous Pennsylvanians to Adam when we did the podcast. And it's just like the perfect snapshot of how great and terrible America is simultaneously. Again though, like the movie stands up to all this.

1:22:56Like it is a useful magnifying glass for everything that we've said. What a joy. What a great thing to happen for movies that we can have movies like this. And it's not easy to pull it off. You know, I think there's also some like legitimate conversation to be had about the$10 million budget and that only being accomplished because nobody got paid on the movie which is like sounds like a really noble thing until you start thinking about everybody who is not Adrian Brody and Guy Pearce who didn't get paid on the movie and I have some questions about that and also given the text of the movie exactly who makes money off of of art yes and you could say what was the long range idea that if you make this movie great enough that it will draw attention to how valuable these movies are and then people will get paid more on the next movie but that's an insidious thing that is in the world the arc of art too.

1:23:42Like, it's all there. Is there any ethical way to build anything in America at all or to do anything under capitalism or under the dream that we're being sold? And I think the answer is probably no. Yeah, the answer is no. I think I'm a little bit less intoxicated with that specific idea because I'm like, I made up my mind on that idea. Same. You know? Like, I'm just like, it's bad. It's not going to get better. It certainly wasn't any good in 1947. And so it's, maybe it's a little less chewy to me personally, even though I think you're 100 % right in seeing it that way. And I mean, I think that there's some like self-examination going on with that too because Brady is American.

1:24:19You know what I mean? Like there is some sort of like inner repression of what it means to also have come up in this and lived in this that is being explored too, I think. Your point about him being parts of both characters or split between all the different characters I think is a valid one and I think sometimes can explain why maybe parts of Laszlo feel a little flat because like, you know, the part of yourself that you think of as the artist, it might be that one. That's just one dimension of you. How much of Laszlo is Mona? I don't know. European. Absolutely true. They got that in common. Very good movie.

1:24:56I'm glad that you did not come in here and just like piss on it and say, what a stupid asshole made this. I'm not. Jesus Christ. I mean, listen, I know good content And I also, I'm a smart person with a brain. I never accused you of being otherwise. Nosferatu. Yeah. I'm very proud of you for going to see this film in the cinema. So I... Kind of the inverse of the conversation we just had. I tried to get you to take this off the episode. Like that was my... And then... I just want to hear you talk about it. I mean, well, here we go. So I did listen to your conversation with Chris and Rob. Rob, my immortal enemy, who's also a wonderful big picture guest.

1:25:42Great, every single time. I love you and hate you, Rob. And I think I netted out where all of you, and you, Bobby, all netted out, which is like, you know, incredible to look at. It is very hard to make a movie that specific and detailed and beautiful. And there, but it is craft. It's almost, it's an exercise rather than like an emotional connection. You guys like vampires. So not even you like, I mean, you do like them, but they hold your attention. Whereas I was listening to another episode you did recently. I was listening to the you and Chris half of Dump You Wary. Okay. And Chris tried to engage you, Sean, in a conversation about Chris Abbott's, like, car hurts and his wardrobe evolution in the film Wolfman.

1:26:40And you just, like, you just, like, straight up liked him. You were like, I don't care about that. That's, like, not interesting to me in a movie. That is interesting to me. But, like, vampires and rats, like, at some point you just, like, straight can't hold my attention. Yeah. And at some point that is what happened to me with Nosferatu. I wasn't even scared. Sometimes I was like, wow, look at that camera going up that staircase. That's very beautiful. And look at, you know, Lily Rose Depp with her tongue and her cheekbones. I thought a lot about her cheekbones. And they are Johnny Depp's cheekbones, which is a little unfortunate.

1:27:13But she wears them well. So, but that is like where my mind was going because there was, I did not really feel an emotional core. You're thinking the technical exercise aspect of it. At the center of the film. Well, Bob, in the notes you shared, I think a word that is useful in talking about it. How did you describe it? Airtight. It is so considered. And I think that this is Robert Eggers' style of filmmaking. And I think clearly a lot of people respond to it. And it's undeniable how amazing the craft is and how amazing it looked and how there's like maybe three people that can pull it off in this way.

1:27:51But I think it loses what I think the three of us love about a lot of movies, which is like that little piece of magic that you're not really sure what's going to come next. I mean, the other word you used, Bobby, is sterile, which I thought was also very accurate. And I think kind of speaks to why I just I couldn't stay focused. I got pretty involved in the second half in the Lily Rose Depp performance, which I don't know if I did enough of a good job talking about. That's the one thing that kind of moved beyond, I guess, the sort of schematic aspect of the movie, because it is a remake. we do know the story even if you've not seen the Murnau film like you get the idea you know and so it's not that surprising I think getting interested in her not just the convulsions but feeling like a little bit more connected to that character and understanding how she was feeling and the way that she sacrifices herself and then that final sequence which is so amazing and so painterly but for like long stretches of the movie I felt similarly I felt like it's elegant and certainly considered, and I have had people explain it to me this way.

1:28:58I don't know what you dreamt of when you were nine. That was like your ambition, but this is what this filmmaker dreamt of. He dreamt of being able to make his Nosferatu. This was the thing that drew him to art and theater and film. And sometimes the thing that is like your first thing, you don't, maybe you shouldn't realize it. You know, maybe, maybe it's not, it's hard to break form from where you were when you were that young and you were thinking about it. I don't know if that's true for him or not. And the truth is, is that the public doesn't care because this movie is huge. Like, I'm personally stunned as a long, long time Eggers fan who is in fully since The Witch.

1:29:34In my wildest dreams, would I have guessed that this is like a$200 million movie or$250 million movie? I mean, you know, I do think people like vampires. And if you just want to go see some weird shit beautifully rendered on a screen, which a lot of people do. And also, like, I'm not knocking that. That's great. And it is really well done. It just does not hold my personal attention. I think that's legit. I think that's totally fair. I actually think that, like, I'm really glad that I did go see it, though, because of what you're talking about. The Lily Rose Depp performance is, like, that's genuinely electrifying stuff.

1:30:11And I think that that kind of is, like, the exception that proves the rest of the movie for me. I think a 10-minute reel could have communicated it to me, but that's okay. Well, you saw the Zoom audition that was going around? No. You didn't see this? No. This was going around on the internet for the last couple weeks of her Zoom audition for the part because I guess they were maybe casting it during COVID potentially, but it was pretty authentic to the original audition. Interesting. What actually made it into the movie. Should we power rank some movies? Let's do it. Okay. Let's bring Joanna Robinson in.

1:30:57Okay, Joanna Robinson is here. We're going to power rank some of these best picture contenders, but Joe, we haven't spoken since the Academy Award nominations come out. Give us your gloss. What did you think? Any surprises? Give us your gladiator too. Yeah. You know? Thumbs up, thumbs down. In general, pretty thumbs up, I think. Pretty good. Yeah, pretty good. I would say the big headline stories for me are Nosferatu overperforming. Made me really, really happy. Personally, love Nosferatu. And I don't know, Sebastian Stan being in the mix is really exciting for me. I think the director lineup is really, really interesting.

1:31:41All first-time director nominations, which is really, really fun. and then my guy like my guys Coleman Domingo and Yuroborosov being in here which like was not a sure sure thing was a probably thing but not 100 % that thrilled me to my core so you got a lot of what you wanted I did anything you didn't get that you wanted anything I didn't get that I wanted you know I usually when the snubs happen I usually sort of feel the sting and then put it in a box away because we have other work to do which is that's very healthy I don't do that. Figure out how to go forward from there. I don't know. There's nothing I'm dwelling on.

1:32:23You wanted Sing Sing in Best Picture? I did want Sing Sing. I did want Sing Sing in Best Picture. I guess I ramped down my expectations to the point where I was like, Coleman getting in is my win at this point. So I took that win. I guess, yeah, Marion Jean-Baptiste in Best Actress. Amen. I think, yeah. I tried to move that conversation up to this episode because that's how much I want to talk about it. We just finished a long disquisition on the brutalist and the brutal movement. So there was not enough room for hard truths. Amanda weighs in. Gabble bang. Can't wait. Why don't I have a gavel?

1:32:59I don't know. Do you have enough noisemakers for the show? Can you bang the massive water bottle on the table? Does that work? Okay. Okay. This is going to end up with coffee in my lap every time we do this. I saw a friend of ours recently, Tim Simons, and I brought the water bottle and he was like, oh, the water bottle. Jesus Christ. It has a life of its own. The famed water bottle. Somehow Chris was ejected from third chair in favor of the water bottle. What about you? Anything like two weeks later that jumps out at you that you've had some time to think on that feels right or wrong or that you're interested in in terms of the races?

1:33:35Mostly just that I don't know what's going to happen. And so we're going to do power rankings and I feel pretty sure about like I can block them, you know, like I know what's in the 10 to 8. I know what's in the middle. I know what my front runners are. The tiers. But I don't, I really don't know. And like you, I find that like deeply frustrating and scary. I'd like to know things. I'd like to be right. Yeah. You guys aren't excited by the mystery of it? I am. What if we knew every single category was locked down at this point? It would be so boring. I agree. I think throughout this season, I have pretended to be intrigued by that while also having some anxiety about not being right.

1:34:19But now that I know that no one is going to be right, really, because this is so hard to predict, and there's still a handful of very important precursors that will probably reveal a lot more to us and we can talk about that, I feel comfortable and excited to not know because I'm not putting any money on this and I never do. My predictions are my predictions. My track record over the years speaks for itself. I'm pretty good at this. If I suck this year, great. Who cares? What's the difference? You know, maybe this is just about accepting middle life, you know, middle age. That's beautiful. You know, I got to be content with the limitations.

1:34:52That sounds deeply untrue. Given your reaction to being on House of R and like crushing us in our hype draft on our podcast. That sounds deeply untrue to me, Sean. But I like the fiction you've created for yourself. Well, I also don't feel in competition with Amanda anymore, you know? I have more empathy for Amanda than I've ever had. And so some of this was rooted in, you know, but it's like, honestly, Amanda has two kids. And I'm like, good luck to you, my friend. Like, I don't know what you're doing. That sounds tough. Meanwhile, I did think about what your punishment should be if I do somehow win the Oscar bet.

1:35:28Okay. Okay. This happened because I ordered some new three-pound weights. And so I think that you should have to do a video podcast holding them out for as long as you possibly can. Deal. I also ordered some one-pound weights. We can, you know, Patreon can be like my new 2025 workout routine that I was doing with Bobby earlier. But you could also do the one-pound if you want to try. I mean, I don't want to do any of them. Okay. But I'll do it if I lose. Do you ever, Amanda, do you ever in a pinch just hold the water bottle out if you can't access your hand weights? Yes, I've done that before or like a can of like beans or something.

1:36:04Sure, sure, sure. But, you know, I am not the most coordinated person and I'm trying my best every day to be healthier and, you know, do my weight training like all the doctors told me the instant I turn 40. Do you want to talk about what you just had for lunch? Oh, yeah. Well, that's not my fault. That's just, that's the location. I had a fun-sized peanut M &M and a cheese stick. So, you know. You know, protein. I'm hearing protein. Yeah, in both. Yeah, caloric content, certainly. Anyway, I get nervous that I'll, like, drop the water bottle. Do you know? That's fair. Or the can. Joanna, do you feel comfortable knowing the tiers?

1:36:42Because I'm not even totally sure I feel that comfortable. I know the bottom two, the top three, and then there's a messy middle. Oh, the top three. So let me just throw one wrinkle, which has been pointed out by a few of the pundits out there that I think is kind of interesting, which is that there's a case to be made that this year is starting to look a little bit like 2002. 2002 was the year in which Chicago won Best Picture, but The Pianist, starring Adrian Brody, won Screenplay, Director, and Actor. Is it possible that we have a year that looks just like this in one of two directions? Could it be brutalist for director, actor, maybe even original screenplay?

1:37:25I don't think so, but maybe. And then either Emilia Perez or Wicked emerges as the winner. No. Yeah. Respectfully. Sorry, yes and no, no, let me do the rules and improv. When that happens, we will be running this back, Joanna, and playing it on the show. Okay. Well, I was with you until and Wicked. How about that? Certainly not Wicked. That's what I was going to say. Certainly not Wicked. Not Wicked. Certainly not Wicked. Yeah. Anne Thompson, Anne Thompson is the only pundit who coming out of the nominations who has been doing this a long time and knows a lot about the Academy was like, this was a great nominations day for Wicked.

1:38:03Even though they didn't get screenplay. Tons of craft. Tons of craft. Yes. I didn't totally see that. We didn't talk about it. We haven't texted about it. I don't know if Katie saw it that way, for example. But Anne on a couple of different pods pointed it out. And I was like, okay, I'm just going to put it in the back of my mind. I mean, that is true, but I think every nomination in craft that Wicked got, Emilia Perez also got. Very true. I mean, also Dune is showing up all over the crafts as well, and we all probably have Dune at the bottom of our list, right? I know that was hard for you to say out loud, Jo.

1:38:38It was, but I said it. And, you know, I believe in truth-telling on this podcast. No, I just think that the wicked conversation doesn't make any sense to me at this point, just at this point. But and also it's tough to compare this year to 2002 because there's so many things are different. It's a different voting body. Ranked choice. We didn't have that back then. We're going to talk about, you know, some of the controversies surrounding this particular year in campaigning. But Harvey Weinstein's shadow looms so large over that Chicago win that it's really hard to replicate what happened there.

1:39:17But that is a great segue to what's happening right now, which is that we are in the midst of one of the most fervent smear campaign seasons we've had in a long time. Speaking of smear campaigns, we've all been educated in the past weeks and months about how they work in 2024. I'm speaking, of course, of Baldoni and Blake Lively. Yes. So I agree with you. I mean, like people like people are like out there working and posting. And, you know, we have the Fernanda Torres blackface scandal. We have Carlos Sofia Gascon's old tweets, you know, which, again, I just like Netflix is sponsoring that film, like delete the tweets.

1:40:02But I have never understood that. And then at the start of the campaign is what I'm saying. It's clear that some people who were not previously very famous get famous and don't remember things that they did five years ago. That clearly is what happened here. But I just don't understand if anyone in PR is repping you, why step one on the introduction to being in the spotlight isn't go delete all of your old tweets. Why is that not step one? It's a fair point. The brutalist, of course, with the AI controversy, which keeps going. What else am I? Nora, the lack of an intimacy coordinator. That was an early one in this stretch.

1:40:38And then Amelia Perez was also under the AI umbrella. Right. And then also the Amelia Perez. I don't know whether you can count. This is not smear campaign, but there has been like a pretty organized just detraction of its portrayal of both trans characters and Mexico. Which I think are legitimate complaints. but there's like a short film that's being passed around. So that is like people doing the work. Guys, I watched it. Do you watch it? I haven't seen it yet. Give us the review of what is it called? Remind me what it's called. I don't even remember. I'm so sorry. I don't remember what it's called, but maybe you can look it up while I vamp and say that it was put together by a French creator and it is a musical.

1:41:28Sorry, it's put together by a Mexican creator. It's a musical about the French experience through the eyes of this Mexican creator spoofing the fact that Amelia Perez purports to represent Mexico when it was created by a French person. And the opening dance routine where the music is, I mean, Amelia Perez has things going for it. I do not think this is the best, like, catchiest musical musical, shall we say? The songs are bad. The songs are bad. The opening musical number where the song is basically on par with, I think, the quality of the songs in Amelia Perez has people in striped shirts, berets.

1:42:11They have like little ratatouille rats. It's like all the stereotypes that you can think of of France. And it's, you know, the quality is janky, but the intention is kind of funny. The name of the short film is Johan Sacrebleu. Right. But so that is an important part of the campaign. And everything that we just mentioned has been getting its airtime. People are out here. But who is seeding these campaigns? Qui bono? Who benefits? Well, it's not just that. Well, that's what I would say. Is it because obviously Harvey Weinstein, in addition to many sexual crimes and assaults, was the key of just like, I will take out all my competitors.

1:42:57Can we trace all of these to direct competitors? I mean, we can't officially. I think that would be a little bit difficult to do publicly. I think there's a mix. I think it's a mix. Right. Or is it overzealous? Not overzealous. I mean, this is the way the internet works. But is it people on the internet? It's stand culture colliding with strategies. Exactly. I think it's both things happening at the same time. Now there are literally online armies seeking out some of these materials, while also there are, honestly, people in the business who do this. They design and execute campaigns. You know, the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni version of it is very unseemly and very ugly and very public.

1:43:39This stuff is relatively more harmless because of the frivolous nature of awards. But some of the things that are unearthed are pretty gnarly. Yeah. It's ugly stuff. Very ugly stuff. I'll tell you one movie that is completely unaffected and I'm not saying that it's responsible for anything but it's fascinating how unaffected it is because it feels like the most old school nominee and that's a complete unknown sure which got eight nominations which was a little bit of an over performance including in many key categories we just saw Timothee Chalamet honestly just smoked the fuck out of Saturday Night Live yeah he's a star we all know that that was just fabulous as a Bob Dylan super fan I salute you like the song choices the oddity obviously he's a multi-time SNL guest and is always very funny on the show, has a real knack for it, LaGuardia High School kid that he is.

1:44:27And that's the other lingering thing is like we were doing the could the second, the movie at number two win and we were talking about a Nora. And now I'm like, what about a complete unknown is that movie? Thank you for bringing this up because we did that podcast at 7.30 in the morning after the Oscar nominees were announced. And so I played the game wrong. And there was one listener who reached out to me. I would say it was like, it wasn't mean, the correction. It was like neutral. I could have used a little more friendliness in, you know, our year 2025. You know, like it's still January somehow.

1:45:00Like help us out. Yeah. But. For six more hours. No, there's another day. Isn't there? Is there? Oh, there's 31 days. Yeah, 30 days have September, April, June, and November. Yeah. That's, I mean, it just like, it keeps fucking going. so what is number two on the Dune ballot is the question what is number two on the that's a perfect question for you yeah oh for for me yeah if you're Dune 1 if I'm Dune 1 I might be substance 2 honestly ooh oh interesting okay I could see that you're a complete unknown 2 perhaps but I think that uh the the problem with this mudslinging that we've just sort of recapped is like yes is it rising to the level of being reported in the trades?

1:45:45Yes. It's not just Brazilian stan armies on Twitter spamming things. This is being reported in deadline and variety, et cetera, et cetera. But is it really, really rising to the level of impacting Academy voters? That level of controversy. I don't think the AI controversy made an impact, and I'm not even sure this particular mudslinging. Perhaps, I mean, Carla's direct involvement in the Amelia Perez, I'm Still Here back and forth, is certainly not doing her campaign any favors. But Netflix and Zoe are staying completely silent on this, I think, just to sort of keep their noses clean. So the question is, yes, it's nasty and it's brutal, but it all feels a little bit more surface than some of the sort of deep state Harvey moves that we used to see.

1:46:41Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And those campaigns were more coordinated and seeded. And they often had this, not just a veil of controversy around an individual associated with a movie, but about an ahistorical quality of the film. Exactly. That was often the way that he would lean into these. And this has not quite pursued that same thing. Generally speaking, I don't know if any of the single shots have felled any campaign that had a chance to win at this point. The Carla Sofia Gascon story, which is extremely fresh in our minds, it just happened today as we're talking about it. Because she's so central and is the titular character in that movie, feels like the most, it has pierced the armor of that movie.

1:47:20When it won Best Musical or Comedy, she gave the emotional speech at the Golden Globe. I also, yeah. I also think that that movie was the most vulnerable to being impacted by something like this. Yeah. I agree. For a couple like Netflix-based reasons, but also just like the run-up has felt so ephemeral and confusing to people. It is a little virtue signaling as a vote, I think. I think there is a camp of it who are like, we espouse what we think this movie is about. Right. And of the like Green Book variety of like, we think we're really doing something here. Right. And perhaps we are not doing what we think we're doing here.

1:48:03Correct. Does Conclave benefit from any of all this? I think so. I met a Conclave, like, Stan in the wild. And I was like, oh, actually I met too because my friend Molly's dad really into Conclave. Oh, exciting. So. He's not a voter. Okay. Yeah. Not a man of the cloth either. No, I don't think so. But he's just a guy? A guy who likes Conclave? Yeah. Just a Conclave guy. You know, so. A Conclave dad. But I feel like, and maybe we can go through, but like as our 10, 9, and 8, if you think about where their second and third vote would go, it might be to Conclave. It has a little bit, I mean, it is a crowd pleaser.

1:48:46As a matter of course, let's recap where we left this off. So before you return, Joanne and I did this on December 20th. And this is where we netted out well before the nominations were announced. At number 10, we had Nickel Boys. At number 9, we had A Real Pain. At 8, A Complete Unknown. At 7, Dune Part 2. At 6, Sing Sing. At 5, Emilia Perez. At 4, The Brutalist. At 3, Wicked. 2, Conclave. And 1, Anora. It's been 40 days since then. And we have been in the desert.

1:49:21We obviously missed on two titles here. Yeah. Sing Sing did not make the cut and A Real Pain did not make the cut. I'm Still Here did and what else am I forgetting that made the cut? The Substance. The Substance, which Katie lobbied for back in November and then we took off. I hope she feels, I know she feels quite smug about it. She was like, well before the Golden Globes, well before. Yeah, you were resistant to this for a long time. You finally did, you did predict it like the week before the nomination. I did, but for all the reasons I talked about when we talked about it in August, which is just, there's literally no history of a movie like this getting into best picture.

1:49:58It's never happened in Oscar history. So it is a, it is in that respect of watershed moment. I think very exciting. It's, it's not my favorite movie of the year, but it was in my top 10. Yeah. So, um, I think we, we aired there by not sticking to these Katie's guns in that conversation, Joe, but that was a pleasant surprise. I'm still here. I, did we even talk about it on December 20th? No, we talked, I think we talked about, we might've in a larger context, talked about Fernanda. Like we definitely talked about her, but I don't think we talked about the film at all. And both the substance and I'm still here, you know, feeds into something that Amanda is always reminding us of is just like bear in mind the international vote.

1:50:36Bear in mind the international vote. And bearing in mind the international vote, does that mean we need to take the Golden Globes more seriously than we've been taking it? Because it used to be Golden Globes is something of a precursor for one reason. But now is it a precursor for a different reason, which is this like block of international voters? I think we can all agree that the Demi narrative coming out of the Golden Globes helped push the substance into this category and the Fernando win also. So, you know, it might be a little bit of a chicken and egg scenario, but I think it's important to always listen to Amanda, I guess, and Katie.

1:51:14Maybe not always. It's a big world, you know? It is a big world. Well, I wanted to ask you both about this too, because that point that you're making, Joanna, is interesting. And I'm not sure if this is just a coincidence or maybe a signal of how things are evolving within the Academy. But all five Best Actress nominees appearing in Best Picture nominated films almost never happens. In fact, it's usually a standout performance in a film that does not get the same level of plaudits, at least from the Academy. So Fernand... Isn't it the 1970s the last time they had all? Is that the last time that was the case?

1:51:45Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I mean, 55 years is a long stretch. So anyway, I'm not sure what that says, but one thing that is notable about that Golden Globe split is that Fernanda was the only person who's nominated now in this category competing in drama, and all four of the other nominees were all competing in comedy or musical. So it's a little hard to even know how strong Fernanda Torres is, except the movie got into Best Picture. Right, yeah. Which is still very surprising to me. But it got into Best Picture, and I think we should celebrate it being here. But I think because it was not nominated for screenplay editing or directing, it belongs at the bottom of our list.

1:52:23You think it's 10? You think it's 10? Yeah. It's either that or Dune. I'm happy. I think it's Dune because I do not underestimate the Brazilians. Dune also did not get directing, screenplay, or editing. Are you sure Nickel Boys isn't in 10th, guys? But I think the fact that Nickel Boys made it in and did get screenplay. It got screenplay. It's like there is awareness and movement of it. Like, its inclusion, to me, signifies something. I don't know how it gets in. I guess it got in screenplay because that category isn't that strong this year. It should have been in cinematography. That's the thing.

1:52:56I don't understand that. So, Rommel getting sort of snubbed in directing was, you know, a big, a lot of people were really bummed and surprised by that. Yeah, they wanted that. And I feel less so the case with my love, Denis. you know like I feel like I was disappointed that Denis wasn't in there but I think more people really wanted Ramel Ross in there than they wanted Denis in there respectfully the writing was on the wall for Denis pretty early it's a damn shame okay so I'd like to just roll with you guys you guys can help me guide this so you think I'm still here at 10 and Dune at 9 or not Dune at 9 either way I think Dune at 10 they're 9 and 10 and I'm still here at 9 do you like Dune part 2?

1:53:36you do yeah I had a very nice time we all saw it together Van Meld like oh damn That was a great time. The guys, they float. If you were in Paul Atreides' shoes, would you choose Zendaya or Florence Pugh? Oh, wow. Well, I kind of forgot what his shoes are. So there are like a lot of prophecies that he's going to, like what? Florence Pugh, hot princess political marriage. Right. Zendaya, marry for love, marry for, you know, the people. well but doesn't he also know he's gonna like don't spoil anything okay I stopped okay what did I tell you I haven't read Dune Messiah unlike you I will block you block me from what sitting beside you on a bi-weekly basis for the next 25 years I just thought he kind of knows that he like has to pick Florence Pugh so it's more about like survival that doesn't answer the question of what you would do Um, well, I would be Rebecca Ferguson.

1:54:42So I've been planning this all along. It's that, listen, it's a mother of a son. Both of those movies have come out when I was pregnant and I have really, really, uh, connected. Okay. But my follow up question is this. Do you feel like you're going to be able to sit there and podcast on a biweekly basis wearing like 20 tablecloths at any given moment? I mean, at this point in my quote unquote YouTube career, I would welcome having a uniform. You know? Okay. All right. We love a YouTube career here at The Ringer, don't we? Yeah. I'm 40 years old. We love to swath ourselves in tablecloths in order to podcast.

1:55:19Chris was onto something with all that layering. He's just hiding, you know? At a certain point, he's just going to be all blanket. Okay. Joanna, if we go Dune Part 2 at 10, I'm still here at 9. What do you say is the last in the 8, 9, 10 coordination? Nickel Boys. Nickel Boys. And you agree? Yeah, I think that's right. Okay, Nickel Boys. okay seven films left many people say there are six films that could win how many films do you think can win one two three four five you agree with that Joanna four you think four okay so then what's at seven six and five or rather seven and six for the just for the sake of this conversation I guess seven is I would say wicked what would you say sure yeah it's only got editing yeah it doesn't have directors I think also okay so the people who are voting for Wicked first well I don't think that there are enough of them so that's really all that matters.

1:56:20I was trying to play it out with number two but I guess like no one who's voting for Dune is going to put Wicked at number two. I could be wrong about this but I think I read that the last time a film did not have nominations for directing or writing and went on to win Best Picture was Grand Hotel in 1930. Okay. So that puts Wicked in a very difficult position. That's why it's at the bottom. Okay. So Wicked is seven. number six Substance I agree do you think the substance is that strong I guess it does have a lot of nominations when I said I think that five movies could win then in the back of my head I was like actually then watch the substance win and me be totally wrong I do think that the substance could be six I don't think it's gonna win either that would be fucking crazy I don't think it's gonna win either but listen like nothing is rational anymore it's too divisive I don't think it's as wide of a field as we're worried it is.

1:57:18I think it's a much more narrow field. But yeah, I would put this up since. I also think it's a six. Okay, so what are your five that you think can win are what's here now? So Joanna, if you think it's only four, then what goes into the five spot? Complete unknown. Oh man, I'm not convinced. Yeah. I'm not convinced. I don't think Conclave, I don't think Conclave is. I think the director snub for Conclave and the fact that Stanley Tucci didn't get nominated. Like there's a lot of things that just sort of make it look like like Conclave is likely is like a favorite to win in screenplay, right? Like I think it's going to get a screenplay win.

1:57:55But it's just nominated for screenplay and editing. It's not like the burger snub feels really pointed. Right, so you're saying that Conclave is five. Yes, sorry. I thought you were saying A Complete Unknown is five. Oh no, I think you asked me that and I misspoke. Conclave is five for me and then A Complete Unknown. I think I agree with that. You don't agree with that? I think I do too. But I'm just thinking through it. Because the director missed for Conclave and Mangold getting in. In addition to Mangold getting screenplay. And Barbaro and Norton. I don't know. That movie. You could talk me into being top three right now.

1:58:35You really could. Over. Not over Nora. I kind of think it might be. You don't think so? I don't think so. Just because, okay. It is very old Academy. It doesn't really look like a movie that would win Best Picture right now. Based on what we've seen with, you know, Nomadland and Moonlight and movies that like, you know, everything everywhere all at once. Like A Complete Unknown is something very traditional. It's a good version of traditional, but it is. I mean, what's true about Enora, and I think it's worth noting, is that it has very little below the line support. so you know that's a tough beat for Anora but I think it's silly to ignore directing screenplay and editing as these bellwether categories and since Anora, Brutalist and Amelia Perez all have all three I think it's silly to keep any of those out of the top three but I'm happy to put complete unknown like that's a persuasive argument it is and I think a lot of people think that Sean Baker has a strong chance to win editing okay and he cuts all of his own movies yeah so that you know editing has historically been a bellwether I'm not as obsessed with that that correlation as I was maybe three or four years ago I think Ranked Choice has kind of fucked with that a little bit but that's that's true it's just the only exception is something like Birdman where they mistakenly thought there wasn't any editing in that it's true heavily edited movie but other than that editing is like one of the strongest precursors for a Best Picture win so The thing I'm having trouble with with A Complete Unknown is like I can't group it in terms of the ranked ballot.

2:00:18Like I don't know what the other movies that A Complete Unknown stand is going for and vice versa. You know, like is it number two on a Dune person's ballot? Is it number two on a Nickel Boys ballot? Like I don't think so. But I think Conclave, Wicked, Dune Part 2, these are Hollywood movies. They're big productions. They're all about like a certain kind of classical craft. And so in my mind, I see those movies as all sort of grouped together. And so you've got a producer who's been working in Hollywood for 40 years who's a member of the Academy. He was a 62-year-old man. He probably likes a complete unknown.

2:00:51It could be number two on a lot of Wicked ballots. I think I was grouping Wicked and Amelia Perez in my mind, but maybe. I think they're different. I do think they're very different. And I think then there's also the Netflix factor too. And that, you know, that's a streamer movie and none of these other movies really are. Nickel Boys is Amazon, but I don't think it's seen that way because it had a theatrical release and yada yada.

2:01:14I'm willing to ride your editing point and say A Complete Unknown is four and a Nora is three. What do you think? I'm good with that too. I feel like, you know, the history teaches us. Look how high A Complete Unknown has come. Like that is amazing. I don't think we had it on our list in November. it's a part of it i think is like you know the the strength of the traditional oscar movie the bob dylan fandom that's out there timmy doing a masterful job in the campaign and uh and and all the rest mangled getting into directing uh is a bit surprising and unsettling for me but i am i liked complete unknown it just doesn't feel like a very splashily directed movie do you know what but someone was pointing out to me and I love this that like I think it's how many of the directors all of them are screenplay and directing are wrote and directed their films yes that's right which I don't think is great and frankly a lot of writers seem frustrated by because I think it's fascinating who was it I think it was Michael Weber the screenwriter who pointed out on Blue Sky that the job of writing a movie for a director is so complicated and that reaching a director's vision while also maintaining your own point of view and artistry is very different than a writer-director coming in.

2:02:32Like, for example, Mangold was very open about talking about how he rewrote Jay Cox's script. Yes. That was adapting the Elijah Wald book. He just said it. He just said it at a Q &A in front of press. He was like, I just took this. I read this script. I liked it, but I was like, I wouldn't do it this way. I'm going to do it a different way. Just his right, obviously, as an artist. But then now he and Jay Cox share this nomination because Jay Cox built the house and then James Mangold redesigned it. as opposed to Spike Jones, not Spike Jones, Charlie Kaufman writes a movie and then some filmmaker goes off and makes that movie.

2:03:03They're just different jobs. And so I thought that delineation, I hadn't totally thought about that delineation in that way and it made me wonder if we, if we're an increasingly a tourist academy. Yes. Well, it's similar to similar things are happening with the Emmys. There was like a run, you know, where like you would get wins for like Phoebe Weller-Bridge or Donald Glover's I'm sorry, like these like star slash creators of their own show. And that's sort of a trend you see over on that side. And so I think it is an interesting, you know, do we award someone for being the most, the most nominated, you know, sort of thing.

2:03:41And I mean, obviously, Amelia Perez hopes those. But, you know, I just think that's a really interesting stat this year. So we'll say A Complete Unknown is at four. Anora is at three. An aura which got six nominations, all six that it needed to maintain some presence at the top of the heap. And then Emilia Perez and The Brutalist. Now, they've both taken on controversies in the last couple weeks. Sure have. We've just had a long conversation about The Brutalist. I mean, the thing about The Brutalist is that I still don't know how widely seen it is. Mm-hmm. And yes, it's on the Academy portal and everyone's job to watch it.

2:04:28But will they? You know? Yeah. I mean, that's a real big if. I think it has the votes of most of the people who make a point of seeing it. Certainly over Amelia Perez. It's like a pure, it's a numbers thing. I think there's a couple of what ifs or confirmations when the precursors come around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For example, if The Brutalist wins the PGAs, I think it's over. Yeah. I think The Brutalist will win. If it doesn't, I don't think it means that it's over for The Brutalist. Agree. I think any other movie could win. If a Nora wins PGA, which I don't think is going to happen, but if it does happen, then I'm really going to be thrown for a loop.

2:05:12Okay. And I'm going to think every race would go in a lot of different directions. Are you able to share who you voted for? Yeah, it's just my, if you look at my countdown list, it's the order of my, I always do the order of my list. So the Brutals would be one, Nickel Boys would be two, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think BAFTA Best Picture figures in as much in this race because I think Conclave is going to win. Yeah. But if it doesn't win, that could also signal something. Okay. I think I don't totally know what's going to happen with SAG, but it could be wicked for SAG. And that could just end up being like the Hidden Figures win where it's just like people like this movie and it's a great ensemble, but it doesn't indicate best picture or it does.

2:05:53Or that feels like another place where it could be Amelia Perez. And if that happens, you'll see a lot of people start predicting Amelia Perez. So this is a kind of a, it is a fun set of precursors here that may or may not. What do you think, Joanne? I've been overcomplicating this and I'm trying to like simplify it in my own head. As is often the case at this time in the campaign, we get spun out trying to, I think it's neck and neck between the brutalists and Amelia Perez right now. for a number of reasons. And earlier in the campaign, I was like, there's no way Amelia Perez is going to make it as far to be a front runner in the Oscars.

2:06:29And I was wrong. And so I don't want to count it out when it has just won again and again and again. But we also have the history of the over-nominated but never winning Netflix movie. And so if this goes down the power of the dog Mank Roma route should we be surprised by that we shouldn't be surprised by that you know what I mean because we've seen it time again I'll have you know Mank won cinematography Joanna so how dare you Eric Messerschmidt his Oscar lives on but not to say no wins but not to say just because it gets all the nominations means it's a done deal the Irishman did not win an Oscar 0 for 10 yeah so for right now I'm putting the slight edge on the brutalist What do you think?

2:07:17But it's a slight edge. I mean, I'm where both of you are, where it seems pretty neck and neck. I do think, I think actually both movies appeal to an international voter because, as we discussed, it is a very European view on America. By it, I mean the brutalist, even though it is made by an American. I do think there is just something to the undeniability of Amelia Perez. Like, you know, we should also point out that since you guys did the last list, we have a new president. And he's not exactly been friendly to anything. Who'd you vote for? Yes. On the one hand, yes. If we want to talk about the resistance Oscars, obviously, like, we can talk about that.

2:08:07But I also think the Brutalist, with its critique of what American industry does to artistry, you know, the, you know. Yeah. I won't talk about specifics, but I'll just say that, like, you know. It's also a great story. Yeah. You can just say Carrera, and I think, like, we know. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that like, I think Emilio Perez is the more obvious sort of, you know, we're trying to stand for something vote. But I think the Brutalist is also there. And then the Brutalist also has the advantage of being in that Oppenheimer bucket. And we talked about this before on the big pick of like recognizing a great, the great genius of a man and how that is like an important narrative that the Oscars really like over.

2:08:54I think it's the reason why you don't often see best actresses nominated for best picture nominees because stories about interesting women aren't necessarily what the Academy thinks is the best picture. And so I think when it comes down to it, if you're asking me, what do I think the Academy, even this new International Body Academy is going to vote for? I think it might be the story of the misunderstood maligned male genius. I buy that. I think you're right. I do also think looking at like our 10 through 7 or 10 through 5, I think the brutalist will be higher on the ballots of most of those people than Emilia Perez will.

2:09:38And I think that's sort of the, that's ultimately the decider, right? Because it's what's, it's collecting votes in later rounds. The other thing to consider on the Netflix front, to contradict myself, is that as opposed to previous years when Netflix had such a spread of nominations, they would often do well in the documentary or they would have a second or third nomination floating around. Maria and the piano lesson are sort of out of the game. So they're not having to focus their attention on running in an Angelina Jolie best actors campaign or focus on the documentary category, which they usually focus on, or anything like that.

2:10:17They have all of their resources to pour into this concerted Amelia Perez effort. It's not as though they were light on resources in the past. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying if you're slightly split-focused and then you're not split-focused at all, then that's somewhat different. Do you think this is the closest they got or was Roma closer? Or was Power of the Dog closer? Roma felt so close. Really, really close. Yeah, and Roma also felt like people really, that was like the anti-Netflix vote. Sentiment. Yeah. Not the anti-Quarron sentiment. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's, I still, there's a part of me that won't let myself believe that The Brutalist will win because I, and while I respect what you're saying and I think Oppenheimer obviously does look like an old version of the Academy celebrating a great man, Oppenheimer just had the Christopher Nolan it's time thing going in such a heavy way and it was a$980 million movie.

2:11:18Like, there's really never been anything like Oppenheimer. It had a lot of, it's not the only reason it won. Yeah. But I think it's like, It was a factor. A factor. But if you look at the three previous Best Picture winners before that, which really constitutes kind of the new Academy, I think most clearly it's everything everywhere all at once, Coda and Nomadland, which is like such a strange trio. All three female centered stories, smaller movies. I refuse to use the Nomadland COVID year as an indicator of anything. That was such an outlier year. Yeah, I do agree that that's an asterisk, but then the year before that is Parasite.

2:11:54So that was also very unusual, but at least like, you know, we can hold our heads high on that one. Right. So I don't know. I mean, it's good because I feel like it's helpful to use historical context as a prism to look through the future, but it's not. Like, it's not. Everything is different. Ten nominees now. Ten thousand Academy members. Ranked choice voting. More international body. Yada, yada, yada, yada. Everything is different. So, I wonder what this will tell us about it, if anything. Or if it'll just be a randomized sequence of events, just like everything else in life. Do you want to out of superstition and in order to protect your own heart, put The Brutalist second so that it gets to be like an underdog story?

2:12:34No, because I'm not like rooting for it like a fan or something. I think... You don't have the Brazilian flag in your blue sky bio? No, because I mean, I think it's a pretty good collection of nominees. I think I would be extremely annoyed if Wicked won. Emilia Perez I don't think should win and I don't love that movie at all and I think um Netflix winning at this exact time in entertainment history is complicated yeah um I wouldn't feel good about it everything else on the list is a movie I either like or love and I can't say that in a lot of Oscar years so it's not like you know if Anora wins Anora is great big fan so number one movie if a complete unknown wins I would be happy like I would be happy it wouldn't have been my choice but I couldn't be like furious about that it would be a little bit like Billy Crystal coming back to the Oscars you know I would just I would feel warm and cozy I would feel great about that I just I I I don't want it to seem like I'm out here just banging the drum against Amelia Perez I just think that's okay I think it would be a bad win and I think the brutalists or which isn't a movie I even like loved entirely but I admire so much more than I admire Amelia Perez or Complete Unknown or Anora or even Conclave um you know I just think there's a substance they would yeah keep going we gotta get to number seven for me um yeah um so yeah there's can I tell you that I finally I I met a real Amelia Perez fan in the wild no tell me tell us uh my father loved it.

2:14:21Wow. My dad, like in the middle of like my two children, like trying to eat the phone was like, Hey, I loved Amelia Perez. It's like a new opera. And my dad is like a loves opera. And so I said, okay, you know, I can see that. I think that that is probably like the best, the structural, you know, idea defense that you can make of the movie. But then I said to him, Okay, but the songs are really bad. And then his response to me, he was like, go back and listen to some Verdi and then give me a call. And I was like, sir, it is eight in the morning. Like, we're not going to be throwing shots at Verdi.

2:14:57But yeah, I guess that's one opera guy who does have a penchant for hot takes. What was his take on its portrayal of trans identity in 2024? No, we didn't get to that because my son was like, here's a truck.

2:15:13I guess... The question I have about all of this, a big pick host, is what's the best for movies? What's the best for the movies in terms of a win? We talked about this a little bit with The Brutalist that I think a movie like The Brutalist inspires something, hopefully in the future of movie fandom and movie making that I think is very valuable. But I think Sean Baker does the same thing. Sean Baker is an independent filmmaker who does not waver from his point of view. He works with a very small team. He never spends too much money. He's gone up, up, up, up, up quietly in his career. His movies are always interesting, even if you don't like them.

2:15:48And a win for someone like him is a good story and good for movies. A Complete Unknown is a little bit more of just a straight-up industry story, where it's like a biopic of a famous person with the biggest young movie star in America and the steadiest hand in Hollywood. But it's not bad. I mean, but I think what Joe is asking is like, what's good in terms of the Oscars? What's the best in terms of Oscars as like an ambassador, you know, ship for things that we love, which is like, the answer is none of these. Nothing. Yeah. Do you disagree? What would be the movie? That would be the answer. Nothing.

2:16:23There's no good option. It wasn't that kind of a year. It wasn't, it really was not that kind of a year. I don't think. It doesn't feel like a year where when Titanic wins, you're like, this is it. Or, you know, it wasn't a Barbenheimer year. We had it the year before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, there are a variety of reasons why that happened. I'm not trying to criticize any particular movie by saying that, but I don't know if there's a movie that represents what this all could or should be. Right, I mean, almost all of these movies, if they win, I will get a text from the non-movie friends in my life being like, what is that?

2:16:58Should I watch it? You know, which is just, and then the answer will probably be, I don't want your angry texts after you do, so no. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it depends. Yeah. You know, it's a Nora, maybe. you know that's not true one of my friends Katie who is normally text me being like what is this did watch Anora loved it and also wanted me to know that she recognized the strip club and thinks it's a very good strip club that's sick yeah and then was mad when I like didn't give her enough credit for it so Katie here you go if we're if we're if we're thinking about movies that would anger our non-movie friends if they watched it just because it won Best Picture yeah Amelia Perez The Brutalist and The Sub I think Nickel Boys is there too, which is a movie I would love to see seriously in it, but it's a movie that many common moviegoers are like, what the hell?

2:17:48Like, I don't know how to do this. But it's definitely number one and two. Like, these are the movies that would irk people the most if they're just like sweeping in. And I think to the resistance Oscars question, if Amelia Perez wins, the Oscars are immediately, I don't think they want that because I think it's immediately going to be clarified as like woke Hollywood rewards movie that even woke people can't agree on, which that could very well be the outcome. Right. I also, as we always should, like to look for, and this is something I should have brought up with Substance earlier, always look for a movie that can make Hollywood feel good about their own jobs, their own industry.

2:18:29And I think something like The Substance, which is about celebrity, which is about existing in Hollywood, is like something that's a movie about being in movies to a certain degree. The brutalist, I think you could say, is in that it's a movie about artistry and artistry struggling, like bumping up against cynical industry, I think could appeal to a lot of artists. Yeah, but how many of the people voting, because it's not just directors and actors voting, it is producers and, you know, every single below the line category. How many of those people are watching and thinking, yes, I am Laszlo Toth?

2:19:09And how many of those people are watching and thinking, yeah, okay, you think you're Laszlo Toth, but I'm like dealing, I have to deal with your shit every day. I think the below the line people, I mean, I think that's a really, I always like to look at the movies that were nominated heavily below the line because in the below the line people who could say like, yeah, this represents our craft, what we do. And so I think the Brutalist does appeal, both Amelia Perez and the Brutalist appeal in that regard, whereas Anora doesn't. So, yeah. Okay, I'm going to recap this list that we've put together.

2:19:41This mess? This is our second to last power rankings before the Academy Awards. Oh, wow. Okay. We only have one more in February. Number 10, Dune Part 2. Number 9, I'm Still Here. Number 8, Nickel Boys. Number 7, Wicked. Number 6, The Substance. Number 5, Conclave. Number 4, A Complete Unknown. Number 3, Inora. Number 2, Emilia Perez. And number 1, The Brutalist. is this the first time the brutalist topped the charts i think so yeah we had we had anora up there for so long we did and i believe brutalist was four last time it's since been released one other last point that i thought about is both the brutalist and a complete unknown undermine this story that had been happening over the last five years of the december release don't release your movie in december it's too late right and in these two cases and they were different one was a festival movie that came out in the fall one was held all the way until late november before critics and Academy members saw it.

2:20:36Again, it's a strange year. That happened because there was sort of the vacuum. And he finished it in June. Exactly. Yes. Right. But also, Anora won the Palm. And everyone was just like, okay, Anora, do-do-do-do-do. I'm waiting for some sort of challenge. And it just didn't really happen. But if you wait until December, you take the risk that someone swoops in in October and is like, I got this. Very unusual year. So maybe not a new lesson to be taken from that. No, the lesson, sure, we can maybe take that, you can release it late in the year lesson, but I'm just going to do one last love letter to Dune and say, don't drop your movie at the beginning of the year.

2:21:16People's memories are too short. Except for everything everywhere all at once. That's the counterweight to that. That was a March movie. It was March. It was. It was maybe early April. It premiered at South by and came out very shortly after that. I know it came out at South by. Yeah, maybe it was early April, but it was very early in the year. so I don't know the thing is there's no playbook everything that we used to think is evolving every day well how do we do our jobs well we don't know any this is why I said I have to have empathy for Amanda and not worry about winning anything because I don't fucking know I'm just some guy holding weights you know well I think I'll win the Oscar bet so I'm not as worried about that yeah the director thing I just got I got one thing in my favor yeah but you know I won't lord it over you I'll just make you take a beautiful photograph in front of my collection Okay, great.

2:22:03Maybe you can be there that day, Joanna. You can join us in the media library. I would love to. I'll be in town for this award season. I'm excited. I'll be in LA. Oh, good. Are you going to parties? Probably not. That doesn't sound like something I would enjoy. You make it sound like you go to parties, which you do not. No, I was like, maybe I want to go to some parties after we record with Joe. But then I thought about how tired I would be. We could go to the bar. The three of us could go to the bar. I mean, that does sound fun. That would be fine. But it's like, you know, sometimes parties are fun.

2:22:29They have past apps. And I like that. All right, let's wrap this up. Do you want to go get in and out of the Vanity Fair party with me? Yeah, I would do that. Joanna, you have 900 pods. I'd like to encourage everyone who listens to podcasts to listen to all your pods. It's really true. Like getting on Joanna's calendar is tough work and we appreciate you making the time for us. Thank you, Joanna. Always a joy.

2:22:58Thanks to Joanna Robinson. Thanks, Amanda. Thanks to our video producer, Jack Sanders. Thanks to our show producer, Bobby Wagner, for his work on today's episode. Next week on the show, we're talking about Sundance. You went to Sundance. One night only. Yes, you saw how many films? One. You saw one film. I'm watching dozens of movies virtually over the next four days. We'll come back and talk about them. An equal partnership, just like The Brutalist. You are Erzsibet in this equation? I guess so. Anyhow, and then maybe Nickel Boys as well. Yes. We'll get into it. which we hope more people are seeing every day.

2:23:32Go see it. Go see that great film. We'll see you then.