Best Picture Power Rankings and The Rock’s Oscar Bid in ‘The Smashing Machine,’ with Benny Safdie!

28:52And he's trying to obviously shrink it down in this movie, trying to be quieter, trying to clip his speech in a way, trying to be this like calm, deliberate person that you were describing in the beginning of our conversation. I think it's really, really successful. I think it is the reason to see the movie in my opinion. The challenge with the movie for me is Emily Blunt, obviously I think her being in this movie helps a movie like this get made. She's also close friends with The Rock. Yeah, they're cool. And because of that, you could see why they wanted this to be a partnership. To me, the entire approach that Benny takes as a filmmaker is a little bit undermined by the presence of Emily Blunt, who's a very famous actress who looks just like herself and is not really changing that much.

29:30She's not transforming in the movie. Well, she's wearing prosthetic breasts. Okay, I didn't pick up on that. I was just kind of along for the ride. You were appreciated. Yes. She looks gorgeous. And how dare you look for a negative in what was a couple of positives. You know what? We need to honor the artisans, including the hair and makeup people. They changed his face and they changed her breasts. Honor the artisans, honor the breasts. That's what they say at the campaign time. The breasts are also, she looks like herself, but she is playing against her type. And you told me that what she's playing is very close to the documentary.

30:03but she is playing um you know like we americans have associations with her as like a posh lady with a british accent um and a little trashier she's a little trashier person yeah yeah and and she's styled as such and then she's also just count cast again as like the shrewish wife the nagging wife and i just that is fucking depressing for someone who is so talented and like and smart and funny and doesn't ever get to do that anymore and to go back to the scene that you were talking about earlier with the gun like it actually doesn't pay off in dramatic terms if you were gonna take that part you'd say okay um you know there's something really wrote about this right we've seen this a bunch of times we've seen you do this a couple times already but if you become you met emily blunt because you did just like if you amanda will do this again Wow.

30:59No. What's going on? We've seen Emily Blunt do this before. She got criticized by some for Oppenheimer, her work. I just, that's, it's boring. She's great. Let her do great things. That sucks in that. You wanted her to cook like it. Bring in the towels or whatever the fuck. The sheets. Great. Who gives a shit? How dare you? I don't like my baby. Like, okay. Big mad. Big mad. She's really talented. Give her shit to do. Give her real shit to do. I saw two OneNote female performances this past weekend. Uh-huh. Uh-oh. Oh. We're going to get there. Okay. I'm saving space for that. Right. But this one was.

31:39You're referring to Kristen Wiig and Gabby's Dollhouse, of course. This one was particularly like, after a while, I was like, all right, man. She's going to be a drag in every single scene. Yeah. She's not going to remember how he likes his smoothies. She's not going. But in every single scene, she's going to make it about her. There's one really good scene with her, which is when he asks her to take a photo of him and Usyk together, where you see that she is outside of his perception of this stage of his life. But even... That scene, I thought, was really, really smart. And it is an invention.

32:14It's not in the documentary. But I was like, maybe this movie could have been even more invented because that was a scene with an idea. And there's even conflict in that scene, right? Because the conflict in that scene is whether or not she's being irrational for not wanting to take a picture of a bunch of guys that are boxing fighting buddies or whether or not he's being insensitive for not understanding that she feels alienated from being outside of a bubble that he is in all the time. Right. So when you step away from that scene, it's not clear who the asshole in that scene is. And that's kind of the thing that the movie does with them back and forth.

32:56It doesn't give you a real idea of who the asshole is until you get to a point to where she is clearly the asshole. And it doesn't seem like that character actually earned that. It seems like it comes out of nowhere over and over and over again with no good motivation, only to be an emotional cog in propelling his character forward. And that's kind of dehumanizing and one note and not very well thought out at all. And unresolved at the end, too. She comes back in the prologue text thing. Yes. So to me, the reason to see the movie is for Dwayne Johnson. and I think it's very successful in that respect.

33:40I think part of the challenge with the Blunt character is that you don't feel like you're slipping inside of Mark Kerr's life in this surveillance style because Emily Blunt is on screen and you're like, that's Emily Blunt and she's not disappearing but anytime that there's a major fight sequence, anytime when there are quiet moments with Mark Kerr, I thought specifically him having to negotiate for his fee from the Japanese promoters, the scene where he is trying to get painkillers. All of that stuff, that stuff is really good. They're just giving out the Advil like candy? Because remember now, he is a fucking, that's another thing from the direction.

34:12We haven't really talked about that. You keep waiting for him to be like, give me my fucking money or I'm going to rip your goddamn head off. And he never does it. And the movie is able, in a safdy type of way, the movie is able to continuously build your tension and your deal. But it never does it. And so there's this emotional manipulation that happens where you keep getting up and keep getting up and keep getting up. And then you settle into what you're watching. And it makes for a really interesting, emotional, film-going experience. But every single scene where there are a couple of scenes where he does rip a door off his hinges.

34:48Right, yeah. But you keep thinking it's going to a different place. But it's just a profile, almost in a documentary way, of this guy. And the guy is complex. where he's talking to his friend and he's in the hospital and he's trying to make it like things are okay and he breaks down and he cries. You guys, I know that The Rock crying is such a subversion of The Rock's character that it's almost like a cheap trick. It works so well. I agree. Because you're like, look at that little baby, 280 pound destroyer of a baby who's just a person that doesn't know what to do. It just, it worked. Yeah. It's a very good performance from Ryan Bader too, who's also not an actor and is a fighter.

35:33And he's very effective in this movie. I googled him afterwards. It seems very natural. I was like, who is that? Bass too. Yeah, yeah. Like this. His trainer, yeah. Yeah, like they are all like really good though. But it almost feels like, once again, that's another testament to the directing because the movie is giving them things that they know that they can do. That's right. And putting them in positions to, so many times you watch a film and you see a bad performance and you go, I know this actor is good that seems like that's on the tone, the direction and just the overall execution of the film itself this movie doesn't have this problem, everybody is where they're supposed to be.

36:08Okay, you go we're going to power rank some movies thank you, you are the man appreciate you guys

36:18Best Picture Power Rankings Okay, let's do it We have to dive into it because I'm getting real close to having seen everything There's a handful of outliers here, but this has got to be the earliest I have felt like I see the board in some time. Okay. Let's just do last month's rankings because it was one month ago that you were still in Venice and I was just... We did these rankings that night? Yes. When you were podcasting three drinks in and you were beaming. You couldn't have been happier. It was like one and a half. It was six drinks. And you did great. You were very cogent. Thank you. So number 10 was Jay Kelly.

36:58Yeah. Which just had its premiere at the New York Film Festival. Yes, it did. Number nine was Wicked for Good, a film we still have not seen. Yeah. Number eight was Sinners. Yes. Number seven was One Battle After Another, which we had not seen. I think we saw it a few days later. Number six was It Was Just an Accident. Number five was No Other Choice. Number four is Marty Supreme, which we still have not seen. Number three is House of Dynamite. But he's reportedly three hours long. Yes. Okay. Number two is Hamnet. Yeah. And number one was sentimental value. Right. Now, I would say this has changed pretty dramatically.

37:29I would agree. You've seen some things. I have now seen No Other Choice. Yes. I've now seen House of Dynamite. I've now seen... I have not seen Marty Supreme yet. I have not seen Avatar, Fire, and Ash yet. I have not seen Rental Family, which premiered to pretty soft news. Right. You're going down into our, you know... Our honorable mentions. Right. Yes. I have not seen Sentimental Value. That's next week after New York. I have not seen, it was just an accident. And I have not seen Wicked for Good because they have not shown it to us yet. I haven't seen Train Dreams. I haven't seen The Springsteen.

38:06Neither of us have seen, is this thing on? I think I will see it next week. Okay. And then the last thing that I just saw this week was The Testament to Van Lee. Yeah. Which was just picked up. Acquired by Searchlight. We did it. Searchlight, I just read, and someone can correct me if this is wrong, but I believe six of the last eight Best Actress winners have come from Searchlight films, which is crazy because Amanda Seyfried is going to run in Best Actress. Now, I don't think anybody's beaten Jesse Buckley for Hamnet, but Searchlight, after the relatively soft reception of Rental Family and the unknown of Is This Thing On?

38:41may not have an Oscar movie. So Testament of Anne Lee, which I thought was very cool and will be really exciting to talk about on the show because of the wildness of it. It's an interesting late entrant. Yassi Salek really wants to come on. Yes, she should do the episode of this. Yeah, that'll be great. I would love to have Yassi for that. It was her favorite movie, I think, that she saw. A very Yassi-coded movie, if ever there was one. So that's fun that that's there. I don't know that that's a Best Picture contender. I think it's a contender in other categories. Yeah, performances. Maybe music.

39:11You know, you could see the Daniel Blumberg score. There's some original songs that are composed there. So we will see about that. but I don't know if I feel totally comfortable with that. The one thing I'm going to say is I do think we can kind of pretty comfortably start with one battle after another at number one. That doesn't... You do? I do. Okay. I don't think that that means it's going to win. I just mean today. It's October 1st when we're recording. But whether we're taking the Oppenheimer Path reward season or the Saving Private Ryan Shakespeare in Love Path, it would be at one or two.

39:41Yes. And then I think Hamnet still is at two. I agree. Because it has since won the Toronto People's Choice since we, and I have now seen Hamnet. I had not seen it the last time I did this. And we will have a vigorous Hamnet conversation in November when the film is released. After that, I mean, I still have strong feelings for sentimental value. I will say it did not hit as hard over the fall season, festival season as I expected. Right. When I saw it, I was like, wow, this is a real wow. I think it's going to, it's not going to steamroll or anything, but it's going to have a really glide path to the Oscars.

40:17It just means that it didn't hit at Toronto. Right. Because it was not at Venice. Right. So, because Venice doesn't have any of the can festivals. And, you know, what's going on at Toronto is its own journey. It is its own journey. Is it, let me just throw this out there for you. Is it possible that Sinners is number three right now? That was some of the biggest feedback that we have gotten from this list and even from our one battle conversation, which is like Sinners is such a huge movie this year that it should be much higher on your lists. Sure. But I think it's not our personal lists of what movies we like and what we think have been valuable or important.

40:58It's how we think it's going to play out in an award season. Right. And it's just, it is a very incredibly smart, well-made, deep popcorn movie that was released in April. and Academy voters like prefer something dressed in Shakespeare clothing to that, like every single time, you know? And that's about the timing in the award season. Even though award season has moved on earlier in the year, it's about like the style of movie. There are voters who see zombies and are just like, okay, so good job, but that does not - Vampires, but yeah. Oh, that's right. Sorry, whatever. That does not mean Oscar to me, you know?

41:36And that is like rapidly changing and I think it is going to change this season. But we are just, we're reading the landscape. I think you could put it at three. Like, I'm trying to think of what I would put over it. In part because nothing else here is out. Nothing else here has been released. Yeah. No, I mean, and like we are still talking about it. That's, yeah, that's fine with me if you want to put it at three. I would say I don't really know where to go from here. So I want, maybe you can help me based on how you're feeling and what you've seen, what you think. I think Sentimental Value at four maybe and then after that.

42:12Probably Jay Kelly at five where we are right now. That is a little bit just because it just premiered at New York Film Festival which is like a home game. Yes. I feel like you got a real bounce up off of that. Yeah, and I think the more people who have seen it, I guess we were very cranky at Venice, but it is, people are really expecting it and finding layers to it. I feel like the momentum has been largely going up from Venice to Telluride up to New York. I think people are going to like it. I think it's a little different than previous No Bombac movies. I want to see it again. I do too. Yeah.

42:48It is maybe paradoxically for Bombac's brand, kind of a filmmaker movie. You know, like it's a very beautiful looking film. And it's a shot on location in Europe. And it's a very Fellini-esque, like an artist looking back at their life. So it's a little different than the intense dramedies that he historically is known for. But I think that's a good spot for 45. Netflix has a weird and interesting conundrum here because, you know, they've got J. Kelly, House of Dynamite, Train Dreams, Frankenstein, and they have a fifth film too that I'm forgetting? If they do, I can't. I know they picked up Cover Up, which is not going to compete for Best Picture, but it's definitely going to compete for Best Documentary, Laura Poitras' movie about Seymour Hersh.

43:35If they do, they're not emailing me about it right now. Okay. I mean, that's four big movies. Frankenstein was not on our last list. It has since finished second at Toronto. I think it probably belongs on this list right now. You want to put it at like nine? Nine or ten. Yeah. Nine. Because, I mean, you're right that the Academy loves Del Toro. Yes. The Nightmare Alley surprise always suggests. And it does have Netflix behind it, and they're good at getting nominations. Fine. so we can put Frankenstein at nine. I think that it was just an accident still needs to be on the list even though I haven't seen it yet because it is the Palme d 'Or winner and that's sort of unautomatic.

44:13You have since seen No Other Choice and what you texted me was I really liked this and I don't think it's an Oscar movie. I don't. I agree about it. It was just an accident. It was also officially selected by France as their entrant in the Best International Feature Race. So I do think there will be at least it's usually about two films And so if we're looking at sentimental value, which is almost entirely in a foreign language, and it was just an accident. Let's put it was just an accident at six. Okay. And you want to... No Other Choice is great, but it's like a comedy satire with really violent moments.

44:56There are not a lot of movies that are like this that have ever been nominated for Best Picture. Well, I mean, it's... Will Begonia take its spot? Could see it. Because they are thematically... I mean, there is, for all of its weirdness, it is about late capitalism screwing over a middle-aged man. And there is something that is very open and on trend, forgive me, about its basic themes. It will inevitably be compared to Parasite because it has some very superficial similarities, not just South Korean filmmakers and not just being these kind of like satirical genre exercises. But Parasite is very crowd-pleasing.

45:41No Other Choice is a little bit more of a like, wow, we are circling the drain of life. Even though there's like some warmth to it, like the decisions that are made. I mean, it's great. I really, really liked this movie. It's very good. Another movie that reminded me a lot of Eddington too, which we'll talk about when that movie comes out. and I think No Other Choice is not coming out until Christmas. So I would take No Other Choice off for now. Okay. So we added Frankenstein in. What do you think about Wicked for Good right now? Not knowing anything. Because we have been writing it in ink Yeah.

46:13for 12 months. And I don't feel like a lot of heat for the movie. Obviously the movie has a really strong fan base and is going to do well at the box office. But they haven't started yet. You know? Yeah. It's about to begin. Right. And I mean, just remember Adam McKay being like, this is like an anti-fascist movie. Like, wild shit is about to happen. And you and I are like very much on the outside of whatever is going on there. And we try to be upfront about that. Like, we're just bewildered. But like, you never know. So you could, I think we should still put it on there. I think it would be silly not to.

46:49We could forget a 10. Okay. This episode is brought to you by Hulu. Glenn Powell is Chad Powers. Hi, Glenn. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. Eight years after flushing his college football career down the toilet, hotshot quarterback Russ Holiday makes a comeback disguised as Chad Powers, an oddball athletic talent who walks onto the struggling South Georgia catfish, determined to once again take college football by storm. Watch the hilarious new Hulu original series, Chad Powers. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. How are you feeling about Marty Supreme?

47:24I feel like we're about to have a little boomlet of Marty Supreme interest you think a little? I think there will be like I just mean heading into the fall oh yeah I think there's gonna be people are gonna start to see it I'm excited about it it's not out for another three months I know and the late Christmas release and the late the almost through hour runtime and it's not gonna be done no festivals it's like I you know I know we all wanna be Marty but like you don't want to like cast yourself in that mold if you can't deliver the goods. It's a risk. Yeah. It's a risk. So, but I mean, the Timothee Chalamet of it all does seem to me like.

48:02On the Sting Rewatchables, we had this conversation about the first call. Yeah. And I was curious for your opinion about this because Bill was suggesting, we were talking about who was the first call in the 70s when Redford was rising in the early 70s and he became sort of, you know, him and probably Clint Eastwood were the two single biggest stars at that time. McQueen was there. Paul Newman was there. Burt Reynolds was there. There were a lot of big... Nicholson, there were big stars. But this idea that maybe Redford was the first guy you would call if you were going to make a movie that needed a white guy.

48:32Yeah. And now, who's the first call? Well, it was Leo or Chalamet. And I can't remember who was on whose side. I was on Leo's side. Yeah. Bill was suggesting Chalamet. Now, they're not really comparable. But you did, I noticed, in the conversation, you were like, Leo is the only person who could open movies. And I was just like, Dune, Dune 2, Wonka. Those are all franchise movies. Well, listen. When Marty Supreme makes$100 million, I will change my tune. I'm not, Bill. So don't make that face at me. We are just having a conversation. You are my podcast partner. And we quibble as a point of the show.

49:13But sometimes your nostrils start flaring and you get really mad because I'm challenging you. and I'm pointing out a flaw in your argument. I was so composed with Van. Was I not? Yeah, you were. But I'm just saying, we're just having a discussion. We are. I think... I mean, Leo just doesn't make movies that much anymore. So I think Timmy is maybe just like more practically available. They are also, I think, like I have, you know, my thing for a while now has been that Timmy is the new Leo. So it's just a generational divide. Like, do you need Leo age or do you need Timmy age? You can't really compare them because they're two different generations.

49:47I think the Chalamet test is about to happen. It's going to be Marty Supreme and then it's going to be this crime. It's going to be then Dune 3, which is going to do well. And then it's going to be this crime drama that he's making with James Mangold for Paramount. I think those are his next three movies. And Marty Supreme and the crime drama, that's a Leo test. Leo, in his prime, opened to those movies. Those movies always made$100 to$300 million. But in his prime, was a very, very different movie going landscape. But if a movie makes$42 million, then he can't open a movie. Well, no, but then nobody can open a movie.

50:20Like, by that metric, Leo can't open a movie because he didn't open one battle after another. No, but one battle is going to make over$100 million. Well, it's... I'm saying, like, I think Marty's Supreme is really interesting in this respect. It is a genuine test. No one is taking Leo from you, okay? I'm not saying that they are. But, like, we are aging and we need to embrace that. But, like, Matt Damon can open a movie. Like, there's so many people who can open movies. No, he can't really. I think Matt Damon can open a movie. Okay. Okay. We'll see. I mean, but like, he's in the Odyssey, you know?

50:49Yeah, he's going to open that movie. That's Chris Nolan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're obviously right. It's completely different now, but I'm kind of waiting for, someone's going to come along where you're going to be like, I have to see what they're doing in this movie. That's going to happen again. It's not going to happen in the same way. Yeah. It's when we were kids or when we were in our 20s, but that conversation is very big picture coded that we were having on the rewatchables. Okay, we have two more spots. We've got Wicked For Good at 10. we've got Frankenstein at nine we're looking at eight and seven all right well you want to do it now you want to do it later when do you you have now seen House of Dynamite I was mixed on it yeah I was mixed on it and I don't think it's to me it's not a slam dunk and I saw it I think the same day that it played at the New York Film Festival and I think a lot of people there were really mixed on it okay there's some parts of it that are incredible and it is extremely captivating in the first half and then for me like lost its way a little bit.

51:43Yeah. So, and we'll talk about it when we get into the episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, you know, that movie's going to be on the service in less than a month. But I do also think it's Bigelow. It is, and I liked this movie, but it's like speaking to a moment without having to take any sort of political stance. Part of what I didn't like about it. Sure, but you are not an Academy voter and there are many Academy voters who are going to be like, oh, this, this, you know, is propulsive filmmaking that recognizes that I feel bad about the world. And again, I liked this movie, but I think the lightweightness that you are responding to is possibly in its Oscar favor.

52:25You might very well be right because it absolutely ratchets tension in the way that Bigelow knows how to better than any filmmaker. And she's a proven commodity, right? She's been recognized for these kinds of films before. To me, it's in a tier below the movies that she's really been celebrated for, but we'll get into that in a month or so. I could definitely see it being nominated. I do not feel as sure about it as I did. And especially if we're putting Frankenstein and J. Kelly on, three Netflix movies would be a lot. You're right. And then that's even before if they can figure something out with Train Dreams, which I still think is in play but I'm not going to put it on the list here right now.

52:59So let's just say A House of Dynamite for the sake of conversation slots in at number eight. What is number seven? Is it Begonia?

53:09I've the Jesse Plemons performance will be touted and so that'll get more eyes and they they really really like Emma Stone and Yorgos Lanthimos you know I think that's the answer okay I think for now that's the answer that leaves on the outside looking in no other choice Avatar Fire and Ash rental family train dreams Springsteen deliver me from nowhere is this thing on the testament of Anne Lee weapons. Yeah. And then I feel like there's probably a couple of things that we're not thinking of right now. But. There's always one surprise. There's always one surprise. I hope there is a surprise off of this 10.

53:46Because this feels like I guess I I mean I I like the top six movies on this list. So. I know you're you can quibble with a couple of those. I like I like some of them a lot. You know that's how it goes. That is how it goes. Well thank you Amanda. this has been an epic discussion uh let's go now to my conversation with benny safty

54:13benny safty is back on the show what's up benny welcome how are you i'm nice to see you again nice to see you too congratulations you're having an amazing moment right now i'm talking to you just days after you've won the silver lion for best directing at the venice international film festival how does that feel it feels crazy you know because like a it's the kind of thing that like it's like right behind me too because i literally have it right they give you this bag but it was just like it's not it's it's something i never in a million years thought whatever possibly happened you know just because like you see pictures like that's like the picture that you see of like these big directors like holding it up and you're like oh my god that's cool but it seems so far and impossible like it was just that's how it just existed in my brain it was like oh that's like a history book thing you know like it's such an old festival and then this year there's so many directors there that i'm just thinking this is just a wild to be part of you know to be a part of this like year it's like everybody's coming out with something it was just cool and so when that happened i was just like really it was like oh my god that's crazy you know i was very happy from alexander pain and everybody there i was just like this is this is wild man it's a it's a pretty pretty sick honor um let's let's go back to the beginning of this project in particular?

55:42Cause I don't know a whole lot about how you became aware of Mark Kerr and even what your relationship is to MMA. I don't know if we've ever talked about any of that stuff. So how did this story first get on your radar? So I've been a boxing fan for ever, you know, I love boxing. Um, and then I just, and then like early MMA, like I remember going to a UFC fight in 2002 and you'd see those VHS tapes in like the video store where you were just like what's this like these like hidden violent no whole like no holds bar fighting and so like it was always like this thing that I was intrigued by just the competition of it and just it was it was it was and I had always been I love fight movies I love fight movies there's so many like requiem for heavyweight fat city the harder they fall rocky three rocky you know like there are these amazing they just do something to me and i love how they how i feel when i watch them raging bull you know like they just they tell the stories about lives through these fighters and that's exciting.

56:51And so Dwayne came to us in like 2019 saying like, Hey, here's this documentary. I really want to make this into a movie. And I feel, and I just like, I just instantly was like, okay. And I watched this thing and I'm like, this is insane that this is what he wants to do. that this guy, I had never heard of Mark Kerr at that point. And I'm watching this and I'm like, this guy is the most soft-spoken, eloquent, smashing monster I've ever seen in my life. He can go in there and beat the crap out of somebody and then be like, you know, it was just like, just what happened? You know, he's so calm about it.

57:36And just, I would then watching interviews about him, like he would say like, you know, I can't, I can't really tell you why I do it. And he was just so honest. And there was something so vulnerable about him that I thought, this is a really cinematic character. You know, here you have this guy who is so big and so strong and yet so vulnerable and so willing to talk about his feelings and his emotions and why he's complicated, you know, and why he may not understand things. And I just, I got why Dwayne wanted to do it. And I fell in love with Mark and I just kind of felt really connected to him in a way where like I've been in situations where I've had to, you know, like in my, like, just like life where, you know, like you have to put on a different face for the world.

58:27You know, you have to like, you have to go to a premiere and whatever happened before doesn't matter. You have to present. And I'm like, I know that feeling. Dwayne knows that feeling. And I clearly Mark knows that feeling. And it's just also this idea that like, not everybody knows what the hell is going on in your head at any moment. And if you are aware of that fact, then maybe you'll be a little bit nicer. You know, I've had to remind myself of that, you know, just walking around the world, you know, especially in the city, you know, I would be on the phone dealing with something and some guy would give me a dirty look.

59:01And I just looked and I said, you don't know what I'm dealing with, man. And it was just like, it just kind of shuts down the conversation. But so that's so he gets in touch and it was just kind of like this is wild, you know, and it was just there were conversations happening and then COVID hits and then it just kind of faded away. And I just I never stopped thinking about it. I had screen grabs from the documentary on my phone from 2020 just and I would always look at it and I would watch the thing over and over again. And I just really felt a deep connection to Mark in a way that I can't really verbalize.

59:37I just really wanted to explore what it felt like to be him. Because at times I felt like I was him in certain ways, you know, I it's so I don't know. I just and I so I wrote Dwayne a letter and I found this the Nautica sweater, the yellow Nautica sweater. I found I happened to find a version. It wasn't perfect. It had a blue line. There was a crew neck Nautica and I wrote him a letter basically saying, look, I don't know if what I don't know what's going to happen with this thing. And I said, but I said, whenever you do this, I know it's going to be great. And I said, here's this sweater so that when it happens, you can put it on and hopefully that'll help you embody Mark in a way.

1:00:20Because I know that that's something that I've done that helps me. and I wrote it in my handwriting, which if you like look at it, it like looks like a psychopath. And so like, I tried my best to like write it and, um, they probably got it and thought, oh, we're going to push this aside. Cause he doesn't need to know about this stalker, you know? So he never got it, but it was just then like, you know, you fast forward to like, I'm working with Emily and I see her. I'm like, you're friends with Dwayne. And I'm like, what's going on with that? Is that still a thing? Like, I want to be involved in any way that I can because I didn't know what he was doing, you know?

1:01:01So it was just kind of like. Yeah, so that kind of jumpstarted it again. But it really was this, it was this thing that was just kind of like burrowing itself inside of my soul. And I really just had to do it. That's really it. I definitely want to ask you about the curse and how that's related to this. But what did Dwayne say to you in 2019 that indicated why he thought you would be right to work on this? because this is tonally and, and even structurally like very different from what you've worked on in the past. Yeah. And I think that like, at that time, I don't think I knew how to tell the story.

1:01:43You know, I didn't, I probably wouldn't have made the same movie then, you know? So I think probably like, it's like a cheesy thing to say, but like the universe righted itself in a way that like we were both in the places where we needed to be to finally tell the story how it should be told, you know, or that was truthful to it. So it wasn't necessarily something he said. It was just the fact that he wanted to explore it. And I just saw it in his eyes. I'm like, oh, I've never seen this person. I saw Dwayne, like the performer and like the big personality, charismatic, everybody loves him. But now I'm hearing a guy talk about something with such eloquent, soft-spoken internal ideas.

1:02:35And I'm just like, this is a different guy. You know, I'm like, and I don't think people have seen that side of him. And so the other thing is, is like, there's things that he does in this movie that like, you can't act those things if you haven't felt it at some point in your life. Like, that's what I was, I'm like, I was, That's all I wanted it to do was be realistic in its feeling. You know, that like, oh, that really, he really felt that stuff, you know? So he obviously was a professional wrestler, but not a participant in combat sports. And it like, it is very, very different. And as you said, like there are tons of boxing movies, but there are not a lot of combat sports movies.

1:03:17And so like, what is the, like, how do you guys figure out the cinematic language, the way to figure out how to shoot those fights? Because it's fairly new. yes well that's the thing is is like i think that like with boxing because it's so choreographable you know you can do that in like okay there's punch there's feints there's all this stuff that you can do that really lends itself to the medium but in especially early mma they were on the ground and they were pounding each other. And like, you kind of can't fake it. There's a lot of like, it's really hard. I'm watching this stuff and I'm like, what did I kind of like, how am I going to figure this out?

1:04:04Because this is hard. You know, somebody said to me, if I could see it on my phone, I better see it in your movie, you know, which is true. You know, like that's going to be a thing. So I'm like, how do I do this? And I remember just like, Like I would have the fights playing in the background while I was writing and doing stuff with the sound off. And I thought, that's it. I was all of a sudden it was like I had the glasses from They Live and I saw it. I was like, oh, my God, that's how to do it. Never go in the ring. Shoot it like a like not like a slightly like a pay-per-view, but like you.

1:04:43I said to Maceo Bishop, the SimDiver, we have third tier passes. They don't want us to be there. We've got to fight our way to get the best place for our viewers. So we're telling all the background, don't move out of our way. If anything, move in front of us and he'll push you away. So Maceo's running, pushing people aside and trying to get the best shot. And so it really was like, it was, that was a very important part of it. And I think that that element of like trying to get around people, you know, was something that I wanted you to feel watching it. Because the other thing is that I thought like, okay, if I want, I wanted it to kind of be like a time travel.

1:05:29I really wanted the essence and feeling of that time to come across. So a lot of the pacing, that's part of that, you know? And so specifically with the fights too, um, I realized if there was a camera in the ring, you would see the camera just like if it was really happening. So the moment you cut to a shot in the ring, it knocks you out of the believability of the whole thing, because that's just physically not possible, you know? So there was a lot of times where I wanted to get a certain shot and I stopped myself because I was like, I can't, but what I can do is I can use all of the ropes.

1:06:06I can use the people. I can use the photographers to hide stuff so that like, I could do all this stuff in camera. So like when you're going to get a better shot, the camera comes down and comes back around to see the fighter, throw the punch, but it's really stacking it. So they don't have to punch the guy in the face, but you're, but it looks so it looks like he's getting hit, you know, because how that emotion kind of tricks your brain into that you know and so that part of it was like really helpful because i realized there was i remember there was a day i would shoot the fights beforehand greg romantz was the stunt coordinator so we watched all these fights religiously and we wanted them to be as real to what actually happened as possible but they were really long some of them were like 35 minutes so we had to condense them into these like punk rock songs almost like like because that's kind of how it feels you know some of these fights last they're fast they're over neck crank done boom um and so when we were shooting them i would go downstairs and we had like in our office downstairs we had a boxing ring with the four ropes and he would show me the fights with the stunt performers and then maceo and i would film it from and i had like a whole side i had like sections where there was we broke it up into sections and we shot the fights chronologically because like that made sense.

1:07:27Cause then I also realized like when somebody gets cut in a fight, it just happens. So you'll see fight, fight, fight, punch blood. And then, so shooting it chronologically meant, okay, at section five, we add the blood cut on the eye because that's after the punch. So there were all these things that we were like kind of using to our advantage and we would shoot the fights. I would then go and edit them to see how they played out, how long they were. And then that also allowed me to be more efficient because these guys are going to be in there throwing each other on the ground and really physically exhausting themselves.

1:08:04You know, Dwayne did get punched at one point in the movie, like, and it's very clear that he's getting hit. And that one was important, you know? And he said to the guy like, you gotta just hit me. And this is a professional fighter, like double, triple back black belt. And he's like, I'm not going to do it because you have to, you have to. And then Boz was like, just hit him in the, these, the rock hit him in the head. He's like, wait, wait, wait, let's go 70, 80%, you know? But so that idea of like, okay, I love that challenge of trying to figure out how to do this in a way that maybe hadn't been done before, because like, I know the tradition of these movies and I wanted to just see if I could like give a little fraction of a new thing you know yeah it was also important because i wanted it to feel different you know i wanted it to feel like oh wow we have the best seat in the house to this really crazy period of this sport because they were doing things that was wild you know like capoeira versus like giant wrestlers like what's gonna happen there you know it's funny though because like for me watching it i intellectualized it immediately and was like oh well this is different from a boxing movie because it's a testament to how we can't actually get close to these guys you know that yes like in a boxing movie you're in a fighter's hip pocket and you're feeling their experience and you know raging bull is so pov the whole time you're experiencing the film but this is like we're kind of at a distance from mark you know like he's vulnerable but he's living a very strange life that's kind of hard to penetrate like i don't know if you are you thinking about it in that way too 100 and you mentioned the curse and something about that that i learned was that you can be far away from people, but if you're connected to them through performance, you can be close to them.

1:09:52Like that was something that I was like, Oh, that's something that I can kind of just learn and use so that like, when you're with him at home, it kind of feels like you shouldn't be there. You're seeing stuff that you shouldn't see. They're really strange moments in their lives. and yet they give you deep insight into where they're both at and then you take that and you superimpose it onto the person in the ring and now you're apart from them because as you would be in reality you wouldn't be able to be in there with them but you've just been so close with them for so long that when you get to that shot it's like the first shot one's wide and it's him and who's sick and the drums going you start feeling butterflies for the guy you're like that's what I I wanted to put you in his head, even though you're far away.

1:10:42You know, I wanted to hear a little bit more about the curse because they really feel like, you know, sister projects like spiritual. I've been saying to people like the Smashing Machine is like a spiritual sequel to the curse, even though the curse plays it for laughs. And the Smashing Machine is very sincere. Yeah. Tonally pacing the score, all of the choices. They just feel very, very closely matched. And I was wondering if you could just talk about the decision to, you know, it feels like an evolution or transition stylistically for you. Yeah, you know, because there were things that like, that I learned that you could do.

1:11:15You can have a feeling of pressure in a very different way. You know, you can feel pressure from a moment lasting just a little too long. You know, like there were instincts that maybe I would have cut too early or too fast, you know, that now if you let it settle and you live in that, it can resonate in a way, you know. And then the other thing was, is like specifically on the curse, working with John Modesky, he's an artist, you know, he's not a film composer. He's an artist and he's a, he is a, like a master of his craft. And there was a level of like, okay, I'm going to treat this. Like I'm talking to an actor, you know, they have to interpret what I'm saying.

1:12:00They're not going to, I don't want them to do exactly what I want. I want to hear what they're thinking and how they're going to come up with it. And then what you get is a completely different thing than you expected. And then you got to make it work because that's their performance, you know? And that was something that was really interesting to me was that like, oh, wow. Now you actually have like, it's almost like a psychoanalytical emotional subtitling where it's not directly connected to how the person's feeling, but it is, you know, it's on a very deep, weird level. And so there I learned like, OK, you have to learn to let go a little bit in that moment.

1:12:39And then Nala is just like, she's such an incredible artist. And just like seeing her work, like, cause I went to London and I watched her do all this stuff. It was just like, Oh my God, this is like, this is how jazz musicians work. There's a whole bunch of people in the room and they're just, we, I had the movie playing and I would tell them, this is what he's feeling right now. He's gone through this and it would be what I would do for an actor. I would just tell everybody in the room the emotional state of mind that they would be in. And then they would just play for 45 minutes. And I would just sit there and watch and just they would all be looking at each other and riffing on each other.

1:13:21And I'm like, this is incredible. You know, and then there was one time where I was like, oh, I want electric guitar. And she calls her friend and he comes in with just an electric guitar. We had a laptop on the ground and he's just shredding to the fight. And you hear some of that in it. You know, it's mixed in amongst all the other stuff. And I just remember like, I had to film it. I filmed the laptop to him, to her, just like, it's just like also she, what was awesome is she allows the other musicians, the space to be themselves, you know? and that's like that's what you do as a director is like you want people to perform from themselves you know that's the that's when you get the best performances and so she i see her doing that with these all these like these these uh musicians and it's just awesome and then i she sends me all the raw stems and so now i have all the raw stems and i'm in there editing this movie working all this stuff in together.

1:14:20And then I send them to her and she hears it. And then she really sends me back. And like, I can maybe hear like one of the things that I did kind of playing through. And she's like, I hope it's okay. And I'm like, this is so much better than I could have imagined. You know, like at one point I had, I had this like intense guitar playing when he left the ring, you know, after the first loss and she got rid of it completely and had that droning sound. and I was just like, oh my God. And then there was that, that hits when the door opens and it just like shocks you. Just like, this is insane. And I just love the fact, like she's the person who plays the national anthem.

1:14:59That's Nala. Oh, okay. So yes, so she actually performs it in the movie because I was like, I wanted people to see her doing it, you know? And she plays the harp and she just in some way, she's like this like little, and yet she completely understood Mark. And I thought there's something really special about that level of empathy that like somebody could feel so connected to somebody so different, you know? It's funny, you're talking about the movie like the previous films where it's like this small collection of people who are making wild creative choices. But this is a very big movie. Like it is a big, you know, you've worked with big stars before, but big budget, it's across a huge timeline.

1:15:41you're traveling the world three countries yeah it's crazy did you feel pressure did you get were there times where you felt like you couldn't do something that you wanted to do never there wasn't you know that's what was kind of crazy is like i really did feel like i was allowed to do the things that i wanted to do there was an amazing moment where um there was it was a really intense fight that Dwayne was doing. And we were in this giant stadium, you know, in, in Vancouver, the 20 ,000 people. And we had our 400 extras. And it was amazing because they're all, they never are allowed to talk or do anything.

1:16:22And I'm allowed, I'm having them cheer their heads off and scream. So they're having the best time. So it's got an amazing invite. It has a real fight vibe to it. And it was just us, just the crew, you know? And I remember Dwayne looked around he's like oh my god it's just us i go yeah isn't that awesome and it's funny because like i've had that experience on like on oppenheimer where i'm like what the hell how is this possible where you can you could have a movie this large and yet you're all just in a room figuring it out that's cool you know like i want to like that's like something where so you you you and it's the same thing like i'm like licorice pizza where you're looking around and it's just a bunch of people having a good time figuring this out and that's inspiring you know and it made me feel good as an actor so I'm like okay well that's something you know so um so there really was like also like I didn't want it if it was like I wanted to create a world where there wasn't even though this movie is all about pressure I didn't want any of the performers in it to feel any pressure whatsoever.

1:17:34You know, I wanted it to feel like you could do anything, you know, because if you make a mistake, it's not a mistake. Now we know we're not going to do that because it didn't work. So that's a positive thing that we've just learned. That's not where we're taking the performance. Let's go here now. Let's try this. So it really becomes a kind of just an exciting thing that you're doing with everybody. And then also like, yeah, when you're getting crunched for time, I kind of get like a little bit excited because then it's like, you really have to work your brain to condense things and move things together.

1:18:09And like, okay, let's really figure out the essence of what this is. You know? One thing I wanted to ask you about with that stuff though, is like, how, how much do you worry about accuracy and sort of like fact versus truth in this? Because you've got like a real person's life. You've also got a world where people are very particular about how it's portrayed right like fans of MMA are very specific so if you fuck that up right people get mad exactly and then you've also got the source text of the documentary too so like how do you blend all that stuff together so there's a level of accuracy that I knew we needed to achieve with the fighting and I wanted that to be there's it's funny there's a UFC shirt that my wife got me that says on the back it's one of the first ones which says as real as it gets.

1:18:56And I'm like, that's it. That's the statement for this movie. Everything has to feel that way. And so for the fights, we were religiously accurate to how they played out. And I wanted to show them in a way that felt like if a fighter watched that, they would go, that's it. And it fucking hurts. Like that's exactly what it's like, because I'm not changing how these fights happen for the benefit of a movie. I'm not slowing it down. I'm trying to just keep up with how they're doing it. And I approached it with like a respect and a care and a love that I hope comes across to them. You know, that like I wanted to do respect to the sport because like, it's a huge thing, you know, and from where it came, it's like these guys built this foundation and now look at it.

1:19:48It's crazy, you know? And so I really did put a lot of care into that. But then like, there's a certain level of like, there's certain things that didn't actually happen. You know, Dawn wasn't in the room for that moment with Igor, you know, but I thought I should put her in the room because wouldn't, that's what she's feeling. You know, Herzog calls it the ecstatic truth. And I agree with that, you know, that you have to do things that change the, what actually happened, but they're truthful to what it felt like, you know? So here, she wasn't in there. She didn't take the picture, but I thought it's a full representation of how she felt that here's a guy who I just tried to relate to on a really deep emotional level.

1:20:32And he brushed me off. And now he's turning to the guy who just destroyed him and made him feel like the lowest possible person in the world. And he's loving him and giving him a hug and laughing. And then he asks me to take the picture. How sad is that? And I, and I was just like, that is probably what Dawn felt like, you know, on the outside. And so I, that's one, an example, you know? And then I was like, I only got like glimpses into like what happened in their lives, But like, I pulled Wayne and Emily into a room and I was like, let's all just talk about the times where we've had fights with our significant others.

1:21:14And we felt really embarrassed about the things we said to each other. And it made us feel gross and disgusting. And we all just, myself, we just said it. And I was like, okay, now we can go and do some of this stuff without being self-conscious, you know. Because some of the stuff they say is mean, you know. And I think a lot of it is like to portray a relationship like that. It only works if you feel the people care about each other, you know, because then otherwise it's just yelling. But if you feel hurt behind it, you know, do you read that in one of your little fucking books? You're like, oh, she was just trying to relate to you.

1:21:54You know, like, I can't believe you just said that. That's insane. You know, so it's like and I felt bad writing some of the things. like when just cause you got your shit together for 21 days, doesn't make you any better than me. I felt that before. I feel bad that I felt that before, but I'm like, you know what? I'm sure other people have thought that too. So I'm going to put that in there. You know, maybe it's not the right thing to say, but it's truthful, you know? So that's where it's like, and I said to Mark, and I had lots of conversations with him and we spoke, Emily spoke to Don endlessly, basically saying, look, we want to be truthful to because they're alive and they are they're doing OK.

1:22:40And I didn't. The last thing I wanted was this movie to just kind of up and destroy themselves. They're like where they are and how hard they've worked to get there. But I didn't want to pull any punches, for lack of a better analogy. I wanted to show it as being true. So to do that, I just basically said, you just have to trust me. You know, that's, and I, my first conversation with Mark was, I'm going to tell you everything that happened in my life from the day I was born to where I am now. And the crazy shit that I've been through that nobody knows, I'm going to tell you, and I'm going to trust you with that information.

1:23:20So you can trust me with this movie, you know, where'd you learn that trick? That's a small one. I have no idea. I don't know. I just decided that it was in the moment. I'm like, you know what? I'm going for it. It's just like, so it was just, it was just, I'm probably from like a lots of therapy, you know, I've been in like, just doing that. And then at the same time, it's just like, I just, it just felt right, you know, and fair. That's where it came down. It felt fair. You know? I think I said to him, I said, I'm going to be doing this. So it's only fair that you know, this stuff, you know?

1:23:55And I, and I think at that point, like I said, I'm going to do things that are going to make people feel the things that happened to you. So yeah, it wasn't Coleman in there, but Coleman coming to the hospital and being the one shows that like the brotherhood and love amongst you guys is so strong and so beautiful. Like that's what I want to show there. And also the fact that like Dawn and Coleman could have that like interaction with each other, that's really uncomfortable, but then they give each other a really like warm embrace when they're dealing with somebody they love in pain, you know?

1:24:31And so I was, I really wanted to just explore those feelings. And in a lot of ways I was like, oh, maybe feelings can be plot too, you know, like that can kind of push you through that. Like if you really are connected to somebody emotionally, everything goes out the window, you know? I've always been fascinated by Dwayne. I was a huge fan of his in the 90s. Obviously, I've spent the last 15 years talking about movies, and I always wanted more from him. I've said it many times on this show. And I know he's been talking about this, and I know we talked about this at the festival publicly at the press conference, but I could not for the life of me, having watched him be so creative, and on his feet so creative, the choices that he was making.

1:25:17And so I'm fascinated from your perspective what you think was really going on with him, why he was trying to make some of these changes. I just think that like, at some point he, it's hard to hold back your feelings all the time. It is, you know? And so I could just sense that like, he was ready to burst, you know, in that way. And I think he realized, I got to release this pressure valve and express some of this stuff that I'm feeling, you know? And again, it comes down to like, just trust that like, we trusted each other to do this. Like there's things that I'm exploring through this, you know, and I'm like the things that like I've said, you know, I feel bad that I've said like, that like, yes, I've said before.

1:26:13Yes, it is nice, but it's not nice because you're making me say no all the time. I'm like, I feel bad that I've said that, you know, it's just like, but I'm like, I'm going to put that in there. And so it's just like, and Dwayne's delivering that line with the perfect, he would, he would say to me, like, what am I looking at when I cut the cactus? Why am I stepping back and looking at it? And I said to him, he said, you're looking to see if you can live with the scar that now exists on the bottom of this, this thing that you love. And instantly he got it and he gets back and he looks at it. And then I was like, oh wouldn't it be amazing if she misinterprets that as that he really cares about the cactus and thinks he would be a good father and then there's that weird miscommunication that happens you know so that's my favorite scene by the way yeah it was it was so hard to like get that balance you know but wanted to look like the roadrunner it's just so funny because like all I had was just a knife and him cutting a plant.

1:27:18It was like, all right, where did that come from? But I, the thing that was really special for me was I felt like I could honestly ask him to do anything and he would somehow figure out a way to internalize what I said to him and have it come out as one of the most emotionally real performances, you know? And it was like the fight scene that happens between him and Emily at the end that I structured that like the fights in the ring with different sections chronologically. This was the first section, first round, second round, third round. And I said to him, you don't yell ever in this section ever.

1:28:00You never raise your voice. She wants you to raise your voice, but you don't raise your voice. Second round. It's she's coming in a little bit harder. You still are trying your hardest to maintain. You do not want to have a fight. You don't want to have a fight. And then at some point when she mentions this, that's when you lose it. And when you lose it, you start saying things you regret. And that was like, this, it was like, how would we, we'd talk about this stuff. But again, we're all just like interpreting it and it's coming out in a way that like feels truthful to them too, you know? And just like, again, like Dwayne, he like there's a moment when he leaves the other room and he just kind of sits back and takes a swig of beer and rolls his eyes and i was just like oh my god like he is in this on a whole other level that like it was just rule to watch you know like i was just like i cannot and there's a moment when like in the my way montage which i knew i was going to do when he was like, we were like, he was caught up on the technical aspects of it.

1:29:10And I said, let's just have it be like a dance. And I blasted the song in the jam. And for the entirety of the song, he did it. And the light and the say, I had the light blasting. And I remember just like forgetting to call cut because I was like, oh my God, I'm watching the movie right now. Like I saw it happening. And he was just doing this thing. And he just went to, he just allowed himself and i remember like saying like when he had to like really let it go and feel the emotions i was like how many times have you not done this like how many times have you had to hold back these feelings and i was like it would just be so it's so great to just not do that you know like just not do that and then just starts bursting into tears and then he did it again because the light went out and I'm like I felt so bad having to ask him to do that you know and he did it again and it was just like and then I was crying and he was crying and it was like this and I was so happy because like the we had the second camera hidden in like we had I would find like places where we could kind of just be out of the way and I he was shooting into the mirror the whole time I called that our like that was our truth shot because he could get where the other camera couldn't he could see and he could get close on the face and he just kept rolling while i came in the room and we just both burst into tears amongst each other and everybody just kind of left us alone for a little bit like we had time on the movie to just kind of like do these things and then like you take a break for an hour and a half to just like get over it you know like the thing they did on the in the bathroom we did that one time because i'm like that's not fun to go and do that you know to feel that that's not fun so let's we did it i saw it let's go let's move on you know i mean you you got a great performance out of him um like a truly great performance out of him so congrats it's it's funny you've mentioned now you know we talked about the curse you mentioned Oppenheimer and licorice pizza and I think maybe since I last saw you like your sideline as an actor has become a big thing and and Happy Gilmore 2 like oh like 500 million people have now seen you in a movie so yes like is the tell me about the balance like what is your how are you defining yourself how are you going to spend the next 10 years of your life like it seems like if you just want to act you probably could yeah no that is true you know But I think that what I'm realizing is whatever excites me to do is what I'm going to do.

1:32:02If I'm going to learn something from it, I'm going to do it. And if it works, great. If it doesn't, I learn something. That's how I'm going to approach it. You know, and it's like, I think that that, and I learned something whenever I act in somebody else's movie, you know, I, I, I think there's something important that like, I'm not the boss. I've got to listen to other people. You know, it's, it's like, that's important, you know, to go through that and to act with other people who you may not act with or choose to cast. And you can learn something from like, I was talking to Shooter McGavin and, or Christopher McDonald.

1:32:40and i said he's a shooter to us shooter he's shooter he's shooter but i remember saying to him i was like look i said i don't think i'm the bad guy he goes me neither me neither i'm like that's how you did it you know and so like it blows my mind in that way so and it's like i get to work with kathy bates you know it's just like those and like jim brooks you learn all that you get to like have experiences like that and Claire Denis, you know, like, Oh, I love that. That's that scene in that movie is fucking amazing. Benny. I, it's not, not enough people have seen that. I love that scene so much in that movie.

1:33:17And, and the thing about that scene is like, I have so much dialogue. I am like, it is a hard scene to do. And I'm just thinking like, I've got to do this for her. And I'm working with her to like, put it in my voice and all that stuff. And she's so down for the collaboration. But I remember in the middle of it, I do, I'm doing all this stuff. And she goes, Oh, I'm bored. Everybody just stand up. I was just like, I just did the whole scene sitting down. I said, as an editor, please just get me standing up on this line. She's like, fine. And so he stood up and then continued the scene from there.

1:33:54And it was just like, but then the whole time she's joking about like, the fact that there's this pipe head that somebody thought I dropped soap. and they said oh benny you dropped your soap and then she goes what are you talking about and they pointed to it she goes why would he have soap in his pocket and so then she's talking about the soap the whole time and it was just such a nice vibe and we're in the middle of the jungle you know it's like it was just yeah it's like i that i don't know what it is i'm learning something while I'm doing that. And I think that it's, that's important to not lose sight of that.

1:34:33So like, I want to have both experiences because I think they make me better on each side. You know, when I'm acting after doing this, I'm like, okay, now I know like I've learned things like working with all these other people, like, and how to get inside. Like now I can change my performance a little bit here, you know, and then working with other directors, I can take things and fold it into the way that I'm working, you know? It makes sense. So I do really see them as connected in a lot of ways. Two quick ones before I let you go. One, Nick's, how are you feeling? I'm feeling good. Yeah. You know, I feel like we got a good amount of bench, like a little bit more of the bench.

1:35:16And I will say it was something so magical about last year, even though they didn't go as far as they should have. there was something really magical about it. And I, and I did, I hated to love Tibbs like everything about him. He's just, he was so stuck in a different time period. He was there when the Knicks were like the Knicks and he just imbued such a, that I did feel bad. It was sad. You know, like I knew it was a necessary thing to do, but I really felt like emotionally attached to him. And it's, it's a little hard for me to get over that, you know, like to connect with the new coach and like, I'm glad we still have the main team, you know, but it was that steel, like beating Boston.

1:36:04I know those are like, those are the best. And like, he, he gave us that, you know, I know like these guys, they rode, they rode with him and I, it was just, it's, it's hard. So like, I think when the C it's, it's, it's a weird moment to be in because like you got to get used to it again. And I had felt like I had gotten to know everybody. So, but it's going to happen. I'm excited. I'm excited too. I mean, their best season in 25 years and they fired their head coaches is like hard to accept. But every game I was absolutely miserable thinking about what Tibbs was doing. What are you doing? We're up by 40 points.

1:36:38Yeah, exactly. Please get him out of the game. You can't. He drove me insane. Yeah. So it's like, but then it was like, is that part of it? Yeah, it is. it's like psychological warfare. He's like, I will never let up. And every opponent knows that, which is, it's a power. That's powerful. Anyway. Exactly. I'm excited for the season too. I think, I think it's going to go well. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing that they have seen? I know you've been at Venice. Like, have you seen anything, anything on the plane? I didn't get to see anything in Venice, which sucks, you know, because like, it was just like the last time I was there, I got to see everything, you know?

1:37:19But, I didn't get to see anything this year. You know, it was, it was a shame. Um, what's the last thing I've seen? Oh, Crimson Tide. I've never seen it. Really? And yeah, I'd never seen it. And I'm like, this is unbelievable. It's so good. Gene Hackman. And I've tried to see every Gene Hackman performance. Like I've gone through everything and somehow that one missed me. And Hackman and Denzel, that thing is awesome. It's so good. I just remember why I just I was like oh my god I felt so lucky that I'm like I can't believe I have never seen this movie and I'm just watching it and then what's the other one that I just watched with uh Kevin Costner um it's like a spy no way out no way out yeah awesome movie got another it was again I was like all right I'm back in the Gene Hackman you know those are two those are two gems yeah those are two of his best like big studio movies in that time that's awesome oh man I love it.

1:38:15All right, Benny. Congrats. Yeah, man. Thanks so much. Thanks for doing the show. And, uh, I wish you well with the movie, you know, like make, make more movies is my only other thing. Like I know acting is cool, but please direct more movies. Okay. Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm going on my next one. I'm really excited for lizard music. Oh yeah. I was reading about this. Yes. That's I'm just so excited. Are you holding that title? Oh, I love that title. I love it. What do mean like holding it in what way like keeping it like you're using it oh 100 you know um i love the author daniel pinkwater is the greatest you know he's just like and i read i read that book to my kids and it just it's oh i'm excited good to see you benny congrats man thank you yeah you too

1:39:05thanks to benny thanks to van for spirited appearance here on the show So, Amanda, thank you for your work. Next time I see you, it will be in New York City. That's right. We are going to New York City. Can I just say right now to all of the people following up on our mailbag episode, like we're at capacity for Sharon's submissions and I'm recording this on Wednesday. So I'm going to try to get back to his men. This has been like a very lovely experiment. If I don't get back to you, we see you. We love you. Yes. I don't love you. refresh your good vibes with tic tac with the right vibes with oh man to

1:39:56now try the different tic tac from minty fresh to fruitish tic tac refresh your good vibes You know, good luck out there. But, you know, this is going up on a Friday. It's too late. You know, the deadline is closed. OK, well, we will see you in New York City. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. See you in New York.

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