Best Picture Power Rankings, ‘Bugonia,’ and the New Paranoid Thriller, With Yorgos Lanthimos!

27:26She doesn't give a fuck. And she is, she encapsulates the corporate greed systemic aspect of this situation. She is the CEO of a company that did something horrible to Jesse Plemons' family. But she's also just like seen in HR training being like, you know, everyone can go home but they can't go home. Like, there are a few things and including one exchange that like you noted and I guess Will Tracy, the screenwriter, like, I did where she's like, let's have a dialogue about this. Like, the corporate speak in this movie that she is asked to give is chilling and funny in that I, like, I want to jump off a cliff sort of way.

28:06Yeah. And I, you know, having worked in these environments in the past, like, a lot of this is very familiar to me. And if you have been subjected to it, it's pretty vomit inducing. I liked what Tracy said about it. He said there's that scene where Teddy and Michelle are arguing in the basement and Michelle asks to have a dialogue. And Teddy snaps at her. I think maybe I wrote that out of a feeling after reading countless pieces with titles like what we talk about when we talk about universal healthcare. There's a lot of talking, but nothing actually happens. The talking itself becomes the point, as does the inaction that's depressing and confusing for someone who comes from a less advantaged situation like Teddy.

28:40He's been abused by the system that keeps talking without doing anything. Right, which is, I think, really true and observant and leads to a great character in Teddy, but it's also kind of where I think this movie is like a bit broader and a bit more accessible than maybe we're giving credit for because like, yes, it's weird, but there's a lot of talking, but nothing actually happens. It's something that any person with a corporate email account, like has ever experienced, you know, any person who's ever had to like file for health insurance, you know, anybody. Can I put some time on your calendar to talk about this?

29:13That sort of thing. Or just like the random invitations from someone being like, hey, we're going to have a summit about like how to empower like women, you know, and candle making. I'm sorry for all those invitations. You know, none of that comes with a raise. So it's like everyone can understand this situation that he's been in, in like the broadest level. And then the further you get into it, the weirder it gets and the sadder it gets for him. But it's all recognizable. It is. The world itself is real And it's actually the most real grounded world I think he's probably ever made a movie in.

29:53Yeah. If I had to think, I guess Kinds of Kindness looks like our world. I guess so, but it never feels like it is. They're in a compound, like the cult, whatever, you know. Yes, yes. And in this movie, it's like Teddy works in a packaging facility for an Amazon-style corporation. That is a very recognizable space. Like his house is just a dilapidated home in a suburban neighborhood or in a rural neighborhood. And because of that, I think it makes the formal stuff that Lanthimos does seem more weird. And I think he's like, he's shooting this movie as though it is an intense anthropological animal documentary.

30:36like it opens with these images of the bees and this idea of you know uh the apiary that they manage at the home and that that's obviously a very broad metaphor about how we all exist on this planet and in these societies and we all have our roles and we all work for the queen and if we lose our purpose right and we don't know where to go that's just like me on this show i work for the queen and if she's not doing well then we're gonna have a tough episode you know you know i was honestly just thinking about how this is also how um the netflix series with love Megan opens, which explores many of those themes in a similar way.

31:09Yeah. And she bears some resemblance to Michelle in this film. And but, you know, so he's using this like interesting formal style or inside the house interiors is very much more normal than what we expect to see from him. Not as much of the fisheye lens that you see in The Favorite or in Poor Things, not the elaborate production design that you would have seen in Poor Things or the costuming. It's much more grounded in that way. But then when you go outside, like when Teddy goes to his job, there's this sense of like doom everywhere. The music gets very loud and you get these wide shots of Teddy on his bicycle or like characters moving through that natural world.

31:51And like a dinosaur is going to eat them or something. You're waiting for something terrible to happen to them. And so it's a very effective like. Which is true in pretty much all his movies. It is. The larger outside world. They're about people who are constrained in small spaces, either by choice or by someone else. But the danger is just outside. That's right. Like the mad scientist's father in poor things thinks he's protecting his creations, but in fact, he's not allowing them to be free. It's something that Lanthimos comes back to over and over again. This is an interesting example of it just because this one didn't originate with Lanthimos.

32:25He didn't write the screenplay. He didn't develop the material as he did with Tony McNamara on a couple of movies. and it still feels like it's right in his, you know, his wheelhouse. Like, he's very comfortable in it. It's also, like, it's very, it's unsurprising for him to make a movie about alien paranoia. You know, he's never made a movie about that, but he would be very comfortable doing that kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, and that's just, like, the literal expression of, like, a paranoia of that things are not right and that there are, like, people either people who you can't see and you can't really pin down what's going on that is against you but they're out there and it's if you can just find them you can solve all your problems.

33:13It's the only way to make sense of what's happening to people you know because even if you are living a blessed life awful things are going to happen and when they happen you're like how can this possibly be? How can it this is not fair. Yeah. This is not what was promised and whenever something like that happens you want to find a way to rationalize it. Like it's a very understandable approach to a sympathetic character. But Teddy is also not sympathetic. No. You know, he's incredibly violent and he's willing to do whatever it takes to get his truth. Right. Which is something that is also in the modern condition right now.

33:53It's true. The character itself is not sympathetic. I do think that Plemons plays him if not with with sympathy I mean he I think sincerity it's an incredible performance yes and he is not judging the person and so then watching someone who is both like within a mania and also incredibly practical about it because it's become real to him and Plemons like does keep it very grounded and keeps it as you know kind of like next steps and okay we're gonna need to to follow this and he creates someone who so believes the world that he has constructed that you kind of you believe it too or at least you don't judge him maybe you're like you're like this is bad and you're watching and even being like okay I'm supposed to think about like these incels and these people who are radicalized by YouTube and like you can think of the real illusions but I at least found myself having some sort of connection for the character.

34:54So one thing I felt when I was watching it related to that was he does things that feel like they are over the line. Like they're violent, they're intense. He doesn't really have control of his emotions. However, whenever he attempts, whenever Michelle attempts to pull him into a dialogue, he's prepared with all the buzzwords to counteract anything that she says to him. Like he cannot be drawn into her game in any way because he's like, I've read all that. It's very much like Will Hunting in the bar. You know, he's like, I know what tactics you're going to try to deploy to disarm me, to make me think about how I'm in an echo chamber.

35:29Right. And he's like, I know everything all the way on the far left. I know everything all the way on the far right. Right. He's like, I'm on my own mission. I got my own shit. Now, that is definitely what sociopaths say when they kill people. But it is also what politicians say when they try to convince people of things. And I think the movie is pretty clever about that, about keeping you in the middle in terms of where to land on Teddy. He'll torture Michelle. and you're like, this is awful. Yeah. But then you'll hear Michelle say something after she's been tortured and you're like, God, I wish you would kill her.

35:59And that's a very clever trick. I give Tracy a lot of credit for getting that in the screenplay and keeping that balance. It's the right villain. Very much. And both, I think the character is purposefully broad because that broadness is part of what, the enervating quality of just being like, why can't you just like be a person or do a thing? you know so there's nothing for me to respond to so I don't know that we've ever had a good conversation about the she-e-o girl boss era which does feel a little bit bygone obviously there are still people who represent that in the culture but it's not as prevalent as it was like 5-10 years ago that's true but she is very much inspired by it did they?

36:40I have a lot of them yeah oh how come what did they do? yeah they were very nice on Slack primarily and then they forgot that there was a record of it that's tough Yeah. Yeah. You don't want that. Yeah.

36:55It's funny that Stone is like, I'm in my mid-30s. It's time for me to be a little sharper and to be unafraid to be unlikable in movies. There's a funny charting of the favorite to Cruella, to poor things, kinds of kindness, Eddington, this movie, The Curse. Sure. where she's like maybe it's better if I'm terrible maybe that's my screen persona like a bad person maybe I just think like she's into some really weird shit you know it's so cool and she is just absolutely dedicated like she is just making it's the best so many movies with Yorgos Lentham and when she's not she's just like sure I'll move to New Mexico and do the curse like like we are a long way from EZA and that's really rad you know that's I admire it but the the endurance it's a durational performance at this point.

37:51It is. Also two movies that are totally in conversation with each other in Eddington and Begonia. 100 % obviously both in part from Ari Aster right? Ari produced Begonia we should say and that's not a mistake. It does make me think a little bit about how because of all these feelings that we're talking about like this is a new version of a paranoid thriller. You know this is we had the Alan Pakula films and Three Days of the Condor and all that stuff in the 70s, which was a manifestation of post-1968, Watergate, the Vietnam War, all these things happening in the country that manifested creatively in these kinds of movies that gave you this sensation.

38:31This now feels like an actual little boomlet. Yeah. You know, when you look at One Battle, you look at Eddington, you look at even 28 years later, where you've got these movies, your beloved Civil War, these movies that are kind of filtering the moment and trying to find something to say about them. And I don't know. I think sometimes I get a little bit stuck on what is this movie trying to say around all of these things. Right. I think just their existence together in a very short period of time, though, I think is saying, we're in a period of like controlled chaos where everyone's individual life is like going along okay.

39:13it doesn't you know not even okay like pretty badly i shouldn't say that i shouldn't i shouldn't pay with a broad brush like if you're being you know if you can't get a job or you're abducted by ice that's obviously an absolute nightmare yeah um but i would say in the sort of like middle class upper middle class especially there's a little bit of like not my problem going on in the country which is one of the reasons why a lot of things are getting worse is because there's not a lot of rage in the class that has something to lose. Right. Which is kind of what fascism is depending on. You know, it kind of banks on people comfortably sitting in their house watching their TV shows or their podcasts so that people can make hay of the power.

39:59And it's rare for art forms to actually meaningfully try to communicate something is wrong. This movie might be a little bit too oblique to make any kind of meaningful change. But it does feel like a product of this last five, 12 years where people are like, why the fuck does everything feel so much worse every day? Why do I feel so much less in control of my own fate than my parents did? And certainly Eddington and no other choice, I would say, which I know people really haven't had a chance to see, like isolate a particular, no offense, male character who has emerged in the last five to 10 years and feels cast out by certain parts of society and then also overcome by late-stage capitalism, basically, and everything that you're describing and is responding to their lack of place in the world in a specific way.

41:04But you mentioned three days of the Condor, and I was just then imagining Robert Redford and his peacoat compared with, you know, Jesse Plemons in this movie. Heartthrobs of their age as actors, but like, you know, that's the hottest that Redford has ever looked. And then poor Jesse Plemons just has to play a complete and utter, like, creepy loser. Yeah, an unwashed maniac. This doesn't reflect well on our times. You know, like, who our Avengers are, and they're not really our Avengers. That's another part of the problem. These are all people who have been really, really trodden down by the world.

41:44And the way they are responding is not like solving Watergate. No, I think there's absolutely something to that. I mean, a lot of these movies now are about how fragile men are making problems. I guess Nixon was kind of a fragile man in some way as well. But those movies were interested in locating at least ideas of heroism, you know, that a journalist could be a hero in this place or even just like a kind of bookkeeper librarian type, like in the Three Days of the Condor is an unlikely person to try to save the day. Parallax View also is a journalist. Clute is a cop. Like it's these kind of like regular guys who have heroic qualities.

42:28These movies, Eddington, Civil War, Begonia, you don't come out of the end of them and think like, oh, there was a hero. These movies are not about that at all. I mean, the sad part about all of them is that there is no hero. They're even more hopeless. Yeah. I mean, the three days of The Condor, the ending of that movie is very hopeless. I would argue these movies are more hopeless. And that's interesting. And it's interesting for them to be kind of coming through the mainstream movie studio system. Like this is a focus movie. Universal acquired the rights to distribute this movie. And I think it's pretty audacious in that way.

43:05And the idea that even a movie like this is commercial is quite fascinating. Like so many other things, there also is a way to read this movie as kind of like a very tense popcorn thriller. You know, like the metaphor is unmistakable. But if you're not thinking too hard about it, it could just be like, is this lady an alien or not movie? Listen, I watched it the first time. I really wanted to know. Should we put off the spoiler demarcations? Yes. Let's just say we're going to talk more significantly about the results. We are both like making a box around ourselves and also this part of the podcast.

43:44No, I spent a lot of time being like, oh, is she an alien? Oh, I don't think she is. And like there was a second level to it, which is I know I'm watching a Yorgos Lanthimos movie. so I know he's trying to wrong foot me. And I know this type of movie is trying to wrong foot me. And so I'm like, oh, that's cute. And then there, but she's not going to be. But then I'm like, wait, no, maybe she is, but I know she's not going to be. But then I am supposed to think that she's not going to be. And I really did go back and forth four or five times. I think that the movie is like very cleverly structured and performed and that credit to Emma Stone.

44:25so that I didn't really know. And honestly, when she goes back to the closet and then the big reveal, like, I laughed. I was like, that is genuinely funny. You guys got me. I totally agree. You straight up got me. I really enjoyed the reveal and I similarly went back and forth, back and forth thinking about it and using the psychology of our movie history with the filmmaker, which matters to it. And Yorgos, when we talked, he said just that Emma thought about this a lot. You know, that she put a lot of time and effort into thinking about what she was showing and not showing in her performance because a lot of her performance is about this very clipped manner of speaking, is about trying to maintain control in an environment in which she has no control and what she's supposed to be saying.

45:06And when we do, in fact, learn, spoiler alert, that she actually is an alien. When she runs back to the closet and jumps in, I was like, no, nuh-uh. Well, when they cut back to her in the ambulance, I was like, okay, confirmed. Like, you know, they reveal her to, you know, ready to make her return to her ship. Um, I, I laughed as well. And, and I felt a little bit sad again, like I said, because this is something that I alluded to when we talked earlier this week on an episode, but Teddy. Yeah. Was right. Yeah. His suspicion that there isn't just an alien species, but that she was, and not just a meaningful member of the species, but he learns because of these procedures that he's doing.

45:51Yeah. that she is a high-ranking official in the Andromedan Empire. Exactly. Right. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because he's just a dumb guy with no agency. Yeah. And he's just another bee in the hive. Right. And he can't make any change. And she pretty easily outsmarted him. Even though he had her dead to rights trapped in his house, she still outsmarted him. Yeah. And we're all just stuck. And also, he killed his mom with antifreeze. Right. He's an idiot. He's a fucking online idiot. Yeah, but it's sad. It's very sad. But it's like she convinced him to do something just like so many other people have been convinced to do terrible things.

46:30Also, we're in the era where Alicia Silverstone is just being like the drugged out mom. How do you feel about that? Well, life comes for us all, you know? Yeah. I'm glad she's getting work and I thought she looked great at Venice. Oh, great. Not, you know, in a bathtub or whatever or on an IV or whatever is going on. The most Lanthimos-ish moments in the movie are the black and white flashbacks. where we see, which I think you could make the case didn't need to be in the movie. I think they're in attempts to show the trauma and psychology of Teddy. Right. But I think inferring it actually would have been a little bit more interesting.

47:03That's something I didn't love about it. I think those sequences are beautiful, but they're not, they didn't change the way I felt about Teddy. Well, I think they soften both Teddy and the film a little bit. And again, that's where they like broaden it a little bit for me where even if you are, I mean, this guy like literally murders people who turn out to be aliens, but you know. So was the implication that they were all aliens? Yeah. All seven of them? Because remember when her voice changes and she's like, how many of them were our dominants? Right, right. And so I guess I don't know how many, I don't remember, but several of them.

47:40He definitely tortured people. Yes. But you are also given this backstory of, but it's because this agribusiness or whatever it is killed his mom and is trying to buy him off. And that's something that like, you know, I don't want to use, maybe like civilians, people who aren't here for just like true fucked up, you know, dog's youth land can latch onto. You can now watch the big picture on Spotify and The Ringer's first ever television channel available exclusively on Samsung TV Plus, the subscription-free streaming destination bringing you the best of TV. Rewatch some of our greatest hits like the 1999 Movie Draft, the best horror movies of the decade, and more on the new all-day Ringer Channel.

48:24You can also settle in and catch up with your other Ringer favorites, including the Rewatchables, the Ringerverse, and Higher Learning. To watch, open the Samsung TV Plus app on your Samsung TV or Galaxy mobile device, navigate to the Ringer Channel, and boom, you're in. Refresh your good vibes with Tic Tac. With the right vibes, it's... Oh, man! ...to...

49:08One of the things that this movie had me thinking about was that the sort of like the realm of conspiracy has shifted from left to right. over the last 30 years. So when I was coming of age and learning and reading about American history, a lot of the ideas when you are reading, you know, that the CIA killed Kennedy. And like, the Noam Chomsky will be like, the entire country is founded on rape and pillage and backroom deals. Well, I mean. Which we know. But we understand now in a way that even was not taught in the 1980s nearly as much. And there's this wave of generations that are reading like Lies My Teacher Told Me and all these books.

49:48People's history. Yeah, people's history in the United States. Like all these books which are so, and if you study media and journalism like I do, you're like start reading McChesney and all these people and they reveal like corporate power is the thing that tends to dominate the mind. And they're doing it on purpose. Advertising is doing it on purpose. This is a way to bilk you and to narcotize you to not take action. And then over time, especially in the aftermath of 9-11 and the Tea Party, that strategy of saying like you're being lied to. There's something wrong in the world and you need to take action.

50:24Right. Has shifted to become more of a strategy on the right. Now you can make the case and I'm sure people are listening and they'll say that both sides still do it and I'm not going to argue about that. But this movie has a really interesting relationship to that concept because Teddy is kind of neither left nor right and he literally says that in the movie. But this framework of like I'm going to do, I have to take action. I have to stop this madness. Right. And I'm going to kill people to do it. I'm going to imprison, torture, and kill people to get to my truth. Yeah. It's like, it's not outlandish to put this in a movie.

51:02Like, it feels pretty kind of close to the real world, even though it's an alien movie. And we just talked about a Catherine Bigelow movie, which was, you know, was very recently a portrayal of torture and an effort to ascertain information. and this is a more ridiculous genre-based premise, but not really very different. It feels very close to the bone. Yeah, it's like you recognize not just the illusions and you, you know, it is in some ways like obvious metaphor alert, you know? It is. It's not that. People are going to gripe about that too. They're going to make this movie as dumb as shit because it's so obvious, which I also understand people feel like it.

51:37I didn't feel that way at all. But it's not like, let's, you know, send Gretelie to a reenactment of Gettysburg. No, it's much cleverer than that. It's within the text and it's part of the structure. But no, it's not the reality of it, but the recognizability of it in a movie that is about, hey, did like aliens come to Earth to take us over? It's pretty remarkable. How do you feel about the actual like final conclusion of just eradicating the humanity and then the bees come back? So I remember the incredible filmmaking. I also just want to say, though, this movie was filmed, I believe, in Atlanta and in the UK.

52:17And incredible Atlanta representation in that last montage. Fernbank Center, I see you. I see the dinosaur bones remained, if not all of the people. But I was like, hey, field trip. So that was, I appreciated that. Also, she's like driving around Ansley Park at some point. If you know, you know. I don't know. But I remember sitting in the theaters being like, oh, fuck. this is really working on me. And I was like really freaked out and devastated. And I, I, I remember thinking, and this is, it's like the film's making a completely different point. And also like, I do understand that aliens aren't real, but I was like, I haven't felt like this since, um, that coda in the big short when they're like, Michael Berry is now shorting water.

53:02And I'm just like, well, the world is like, we all are just going to end, you know, we're going to die and this is how it's gonna that's gonna happen and it's just a little coda at the end of a movie and i'm unprepared oh i i think it's a i did just have this feeling very recently in a movie and it's when you're looking at the data center when the bobby gentry song plays where it was like oh god damn i am powerless you know like and and power is very centralized and you know enjoy your yogurt at home you moron because it now costs like$14 but whatever yeah that is true I think that this is an interesting one for Yorgos it sounds like he's going to take a little bit of a break after this because he's been on this breakneck pace yeah and I'm really really I really think both Stone and Plemons are exceptional in this movie I've read some criticism that people thought it would work better if Plemons was like a little more cartoonish.

54:03But I liked it. He was just kind of this tragic loser. I mean, that's the thing of people always want the bad characters to be punished. And I think that the lack of punishment except that like we're all punished because life is hell. That's the wavelength you and I are on. I know. I know. It's nice. It's something we share. What else? Any other thoughts about this movie? or where it even fits in with Lanthimos' filmography? Yeah, so I think it's more first half than second half, which I think is cool. Yep, I agree. I'm happy he kind of went back to that energy. Yeah, you know, we did Best Picture Power Rankings to start this, and I do kind of feel like Poor Things had a lot of success at the Oscars because it was weird and outlandish, but also ultimately sort of like good girl power.

54:58Kind of hopeful. Yeah, you know, it's like the CEO makes good. And she becomes her own CEO, you know? Indeed. So I guess now I do wonder how Begonia will go against... This isn't the most hopeful of even of the movies this year that are dealing with how men are cast out of the world that we live in. Yeah, I mean, if you put it up against one battle after another. That's a significantly more hopeful movie even though it's riven with tragedy. I, like my personal favorites are also Dogtooth and the Lobster. Those are probably my two favorite films. I don't know if they're his best made movies per se.

55:37He's really, at this point, his production design is pretty incredible. Like he just, he's kind of in master filmmaker territory for me. Doesn't mean every movie is my favorite. I really didn't dig kinds of kindness even though it felt very close to the Dogtooth energy. I didn't think that the script was as good. I don't know you don't, you don't love an anthology. I mean, that's true. You know, tell a story. Favorite and Poor Things are both excellent. They are. I really like both of them as well. But this is, this would be near the top for me. I don't, I don't, I've seen it twice now. I don't know if I'm going to race to see it again.

56:09I think it doesn't have as much, as much comic payoff as The Lobster does. The Lobster, to me, is also very tragic and has an insanely bleak ending. But it's very amusing. But Gonyo, if I spent any time thinking about it I feel very bad yeah that's the point right it is the point yeah okay I have a question yes do you think there is any chance Emma Stone gets a best actress nomination and this is a good question the reason I ask is you know I'm watching the movie and you guys already celebrated her it's an amazing performance but she's put in a position of vulnerability which her character has truly really never been in and she plays it very well and there's one moment where she is in a position of power which is when she's on top of Teddy and the mask just completely comes down and she just delivers that line where she says, I'm a winner and you're a loser.

57:01And she delivers it so sharply and her teeth are gritting and it just, it cuts right through. And I was stunned. And right after, I'm like, well, surely she's going to be nominated for Best Actress. But I wonder, is there a little bit of Emma Stone fatigue following the second win from Poor Things? I don't think there's fatigue for her as a performer. Yeah. I just think that the Oscars is usually kind of strategic about this and that, you know, she was obviously, you know, in a tight race when she won for poor things. And I wouldn't say that was a surprise win. I think you picked it and I didn't.

57:37Is that right? No, I think that... Or I picked it and you didn't? Maybe we both didn't pick it, but then it was real like, oh God, I knew this was coming. Like I knew it. Yes. It was one of those. Yes. Very similar to Mikey Madison beating Demi Moore too, where it was like, ooh, right. why didn't I use my brain on this one yeah yeah yeah three before 40 would be a lot that's just not well he's not asking if she's gonna win yeah I'm just saying a nomination I think she'll be nominated okay I mean she is a huge star clearly one of the actresses of her generation if not the actress of her generation Yorgos is academy certified like you were saying and I don't I don't know how successful the movie will be but I don't I think some I think people will see it I do as well and she's also So she's working the trail.

58:22And she's just super charming. Yeah. You know, she's just like great on the red carpet, great in interviews. She's a good star. And those people tend to walk away from their careers with like nine nominations. But so who do we have now? So we've got Emma Stone. We've got Jesse Buckley for sure. Yep. Chase Infinity is running in Best Actress. Yes. Which would be exciting. Yes. Okay. We have Renata Rensvee for Sentimental Value. Sure. We have Amanda Seyfried. for The Testament of Ann Lee. Okay. We have Kate Hudson for a film called Song Sung Blue. I heard about that. I like that she tried. Never mind.

58:59We can talk about that later. We have Rose Byrne for If I Had Legs I'd Kick You. Yeah, I'd love to see that. Sydney Sweeney for Christy. Sure. It's going to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said J-Law for Die My Love? I didn't say it yet, but that's another one. There's probably a couple more. A lot of angry moms there on the list. Cynthia Erivo. Sure. Cynthia Erivo for Wicked For Good. I haven't I haven't seen Hedda yet but maybe Tessa Thompson she's gotten very good reviews for that movie I don't think Julia Roberts for is this or for After the Hunt is gonna happen Laura Dern is this thing on could be a lot of contenders this year I think that's I think that's roughly the shape of it okay that's that's a lot that's a lot to me it still feels like Jesse Buckley's to lose agree I, what do you think about the Chase Infinity thing?

59:47her choosing to run in Best Actress or them choosing to run her in Best Actress. Which obviously makes room for Tiana Taylor and Regina Hall to run in Supporting. I like it. Again, I don't really feel category fraud or like in the way that you do or, you know, I know Wesley Morris. You and Wesley like feel very strongly about it. I'm just like, I don't know. Go win an Oscar. You rarely see the inverted fraud. Right. Where somebody who feels like a supporting character goes into lead. but she doesn't feel like a supporting character. I mean, she's, the movie, the two-thirds of the movie, Tiana Taylor's the prologue, and then she is the girl lead in the end.

1:00:29She is, but act two is Bob's movie. So she gets one section of the movie. And the movie obviously becomes hers by the end. So you get one, two, three. So, I mean, Leo's not running in supporting actor. No, but he's in every phase of the movie. He's the only character who's in every phase of the movie. All right. I mean, you don't need to mansplain to why Leo is the best actor and everyone is supporting actor. It's like, what do you care? It's more just a question of like... Who made you the Category Police? Well, I did actually by hosting this show. Category Police is a good idea for a segment.

1:01:04Let's do that. Okay. I think it'd be cool if she got nominated. She's Infinity's excellent in that movie. It's her third performance on screen ever. It's crazy. but I I think she's she's pulling a tough draw here with some yeah a bunch of people who've been nominated before a couple people like you know Cynthia Erivo Amanda Seyfried Jesse Buckley they've all been nominated before right Emma Stone and Jennifer Lawrence have won before have won in this category before Sydney Sweeney was in a jeans commercial so there's you gotta consider that have you watched those? no okay well we'll do it before Christy oh no we'll do it we'll do it Rose Byrne should be nominated 1000 % I I will I will endeavor I'll communicate about that on an ongoing basis for the next five months I think she really deserves it yeah okay Bagonia pretty good I liked it I really do go see it if you haven't if you're still listening and you didn't see it okay you're bad those are your choices your choice now is to either turn this episode off or more likely stick around for my conversation right now with Yorgos Lanthimos.

1:02:19For the very first time, joined by Yorgos Lanthimos, the great filmmaker, very excited to speak with you, sir. I want to start with this. Three of your last four films have been written by screenwriters other than yourself. And this one I read is the first one that you didn't even really develop the material. So I'm curious, like when a script hits your desk, What are you looking for? What is it that excites you in a story? Well, I'll start by saying like all of these scripts until recently, I'm either, you know, involved as a writer or kind of found the original material or they were all like really long process of, you know, development.

1:03:02So I was involved with the screenwriting for many years. So in that sense, this is even more exceptional. It's the first time that I receive a screenplay and I think that it's almost ready to go. Of course, I had to do a little bit of work with Will just to get it more to my sensibility and, you know, feel more comfortable and, you know, make it aligned with my vision of the film. But it was like a, you know, very short process. And I felt immediately from the beginning that it would, you know, work because already the screenplay was incredible. So, and what it was, like, it's difficult to say.

1:03:49I guess one thing, the less profound is like it was different to what I've done before. But then, you know, it was something that I read and I read it like in one go and I found it, you know, entertaining and suspenseful and complex and, you know, very funny. but also like dealing with a lot of darkness, a lot of issues around humanity and human nature, which always interests me, and done in a quite different way, in a contained way. So yeah, it just got me excited immediately. And I immediately sent it to Emma Stone the same night that I read it. It was so much of an immediate reaction, I guess.

1:04:39I'm curious why you were open to this kind of a process at this stage of your career, you know, as opposed to developing or identifying the material or even writing it yourself. Like, why were you open to just receiving someone else's script? I guess I'm always open. I just had never received a script that felt, you know, that it had the right, you know, material or the right tone or the right anything. But it was that different with this one. So I've been reading scripts. It's just that nothing really clicked up until now the same way that this one did. Were you familiar with Save the Green Planet before you got the script?

1:05:25No, not at all. I hadn't seen it. And I actually read the script first, got excited, shared it with Emma. And then basically when we kind of, you know, felt strongly about it, then I watched the original film just to make sure that it was different enough to warrant, you know, a remake. And, you know, I saw that that was the case. And so we decided to go ahead with it. You're on this breakneck pace right now with three films in three years, which is very unusual for filmmakers these days. I was curious if you see the last three films as thematically linked in any way beyond Emma appearing in them.

1:06:07Um, well, I mean, what we mentioned before, there's a lot of, uh, exploration of human, you know, condition and behavior and, um, um, yeah, something along those lines. Um, at the same time, like they're formally different and seemingly, you know, quite different stories. I don't know it's that thing it's hard to make a self analysis and understand what it is that draws you to this kind of thing I think that's better done by other people that are not so much involved in the process of making those Okay I'll do it for you then if you want me to Yeah I mean it's always interesting to hear those things and especially when you do recognize something that someone says, you go like, oh yeah, do that.

1:07:08That's true. I wanted to ask you about the formal aspect of it, because this new film does feel a bit like you took pieces of poor things and pieces of kinds of kindness in terms of the style of film that you were making and kind of blended them together. You know, that these are like a lot of interiors shot in small spaces, but these kind of big outsized ideas and a kind of high melodrama to a lot of the execution of the story? Like, is that something that you feel conscious of when you're like, all right, I've used these tools over here and these tools over here, and what if I smash them together?

1:07:39Yeah, I mean, a little bit. Basically, trying to do, you know, something slightly different with each film, but at the same time, having developed a certain kind of taste and a certain kind of preference about things, and then seeing what you can do to, you know, tweak things just to make it more interesting, But also I rely a lot on what the material is and what that gives me in order to make that shift, not just without any reasoning, just do something different for the sake of it. So, you know, for example, in this film, on Begonia, we decided that, well, first we decided that we're going to suit on Vista Vision, which was like a huge decision.

1:08:26We had shot some VistaVision on poor things, but at the time we couldn't really find a camera that was reliable enough and quiet enough to sing dialogue with. So we couldn't shoot much more, but those images stayed in our heads. So as we were making other stuff, we kept interrogating the possibility, and Robbie was looking around for what other cameras that there are cameras there could be. So we found this camera, the Willcam, which is quieter. I mean, you can still hear it. It's still a pretty big camera though, right? Yeah, it's quieter, but it's really huge. So we did some tests and we liked it.

1:09:15So, you know, then you get into the, okay, we have this restriction. It's going to be huge and it's slow. I mean, it takes a long time to, you know, change the magazine and all of those things. So that puts you in a certain kind of mode. And if you accept that and you commit to that, then you figure out, you know, the rest of it. So for me, it was like interesting to use such a larger format in what you described as well, like smaller spaces, kind of claustrophobic, a film very much focused on characters and dialogue. I think that kind of depth of the larger format kind of created this almost iconic portraiture of the characters.

1:10:04So we decided that we're going to stick with that and not use too many wide-angle lenses and see a lot of the space necessarily most of the times and then juxtapose that portraiture with when you're outside and you see something wider so the contrast is greater. So you just kind of build from the material, from one decision that you make, that it leads you to the others. We always love restrictions as well. Like with Robbie, we've done the last few films together And most of the times we kind of impose them ourselves because it just makes things clearer and easier. Like so you develop this language and you say like this is the alphabet.

1:10:50There's like these lenses and the camera doesn't move unless people move. And, you know, it's a huge camera. So we can't do like a thousand different angles, you know, those things. And that kind of helps, you know, free you in the process, especially, you know, during filming is very stressful. You don't have much time. So when you have less options, it kind of frees you to, you know, focus on other things or be creative of how you find a solution for something. So it either comes from, you know, circumstances or a choice that you made. But it's always helpful, I find, to like narrow things down.

1:11:31I love that juxtaposition in the film that you talked about, this idea that whenever Jesse's on his bike or Emma is just kind of walking briskly through a space that it feels like the camera is very wide and that there's like this sense of impending doom, like someone might come up behind them at any moment. But how do you avoid when you impose those rules, the film like feeling too schematic, you know, feeling too mannered? Do you think about that? Yeah, which I think I don't mind. I like the aspect of a certain construct to be obvious. And I like to mix that with other things. There can be a very, as you say, conscious construct around how the film is recorded.

1:12:22but then like there's these, you know, quite realistic, although I don't really love the term performances from the actors or the environment is like really dirty and real. And then you have this other layer of sound that or music that's over the top and super dramatic. And I think all of these things, by combining all these different layers, you create this tone, this tonality, which is different to its parts. So that's why I'm interested in. But then, of course, if you see it and analyze it, you can see the structure of that. And I don't know, like I find something interesting about like watching a film, getting lost in it, and then something reminding you that you're watching a film.

1:13:17I know what you mean by that. And there was something related to that I want to ask you too, which is that I feel like most of your films are not dependent on dramatic reveals. But especially having seen this movie twice now, it plays very differently the second time that you see it. and I'm curious what it was like to you know essentially be making what feels like a potboiler in some ways you know you're waiting for kind of like revelation and if that changed how you thought about making the film in any way yeah I mean it was more I think it was more important for Emma for example for her performance to think about that a lot like what it would be and she talks about that that it's the first time that she thought about it in those terms.

1:14:01Like, what would it be if someone watched the film for a second time? So she did have that in her mind. And, you know, of course, you know, I was there and I, you know, certain things that I could see, I could help with, I would. But for me in the end, like when I started thinking about that too much, I felt like in the end, that's not, you know, the strength of this film. That's not what it's about. And also like it's based on a, You know, in an older film, if you want to look it up, you know what it is. And I think the effort was like to make, you know, every scene, every second, every, you know, situation compelling and interesting.

1:14:45The same way that I read the script, because I understood that when I was reading the script, it was about like these characters and, you know, how you get drawn to each one. and then how one manages to convince you about something and then the other, and then you don't know where you are. And I felt like in the end, whatever the outcome is, it's not as important as this process of being engaged in those ideas and those characters in that way. So I kind of let that go a little bit. And also, I don't think you can control it. I think certain people would be able, even if they didn't know the original film, would be able to like decide for themselves, oh, I know what it's going to be.

1:15:32And they might be right. They might be wrong. Someone else thinks something different. There's the people that are going to be alternating the entire time. You know, you can't absolutely control that because there's so many different people. So yeah, I think I let go of that idea of like having to make, you know, a big reveal that impactful and to make sure that nobody understands that from the beginning. I I think it's interesting to allow everyone to have their own mind about it and then just, you know, make the journey there fulfilling and interesting and exciting. I did find it much more tragic the second time around, I will say.

1:16:14I felt much more sad. And, you know, the film, the script is laden with all these modern phrases and this social framework and this kind of exploration of a life spent online in some ways. And, you know, our inability to communicate with each other, essentially. And then the movie itself is this series of communications. I'm curious, like, how much does that, this aspect of the world and this state of the world, like, you know, actually concern you or scare you? And how much of it is a vessel to explore individual human relationships? Well, a lot. I mean, it's becoming more and more obvious that there's the divide between the different groups of people and all these bubbles that are created, especially with the aid of technology and how fast it progresses, is something scary.

1:17:08because I see that it's becoming really hard to burst through that bubble, to be able to, you know, to listen to someone else and, you know, actually properly consider a different opinion or a different truth or the nuance between what you believe and what someone else believes. And that's, you know, just being in those bubbles is just being reinforced. it just reinforces your ideas instead of opening you up to other ideas, which is something that technology would be able to do if it didn't operate in that kind of algorithm structuring thing where it just gives you what you want. And the same thing with AI is like giving you what you want, what you want to hear, the direction you want to go.

1:18:09And it just seems like it can become totally uncontrollable in a sense, if you don't check in with other people or other things. So yeah, it realistically seems scary, other than it being a vehicle for us to explore. Or what that could be if you actually had that conflict in person instead of, for example, doing something like that online. I think Will Tracy, who wrote the script, talks about that. A basic idea of his was when you started writing the script is that if you took all these people that anonymously make all these comments and are so absolute about all these things and you know, take those people and put them in a room, what happens, you know, like.

1:19:03Well, one of my favorite takeaways, or at least feelings from the movie is that being right is not a solution. You know, that even if you are the loudest and most obnoxious person, you might actually be right about what you think is happening in the world. And that doesn't mean that anything is fixable or that you're working towards a solution either, which is just such a fascinating confrontation with the way that we fight with each other every day. and I really clicked with that. Yeah, no, I agree. And it's funny because also both sides could be right about some of the things. So again, if you can't work together and figure out what part of what you believe is true and what part of what I believe is true, then you yeah it's it's kind of impossible to get to a solution um so yeah i totally agree with that i wanted to ask you about aiden delvis who you know is a complete unknown you've got basically he's right in between two performers you've worked with multiple times now where did he come from how did he get cast well i uh as soon as i read the script as i said i send it to Emma because it was very straightforward for me.

1:20:20And when she responded to it, again, we both thought of Jesse being perfect for this. We had just worked with him on kinds of kindness. So that was very quickly resolved in a way. And so right after having those two in mind, I immediately felt that I wanted someone who was not a professional actor who hasn't had any film experience. And I do that in all of my films to, you know, various levels. But this was obviously a very important part. It was like the third part in a three-part kind of film. So, yeah, we just started street casting, basically. We worked with Jennifer Venditti, who has a lot of experience with finding people that do not have any film experience.

1:21:23And the other thing is being inspired by how the character was written in the script. I just felt that it was an opportunity to cast someone who was neurodivergent. It felt that way in the script. And I think someone who would actually have that sense of the world and have that perspective would enrich the character. So we, yeah, we kind of focused towards that. And, you know, very quickly, actually, it was one of the first few batches where we saw Aiden, who's autistic and he prefers that term. and we saw his tape and we really, he really stood out. But we kept looking because it felt like it was too early to have found such a...

1:22:18It should be harder to find the perfect person for this part. Yeah, like we thought it would take forever. So we kept looking, but we just kept saying, Aiden is the best we've seen so far. So we met him and we met him for the first time, all three of us, like me, Emily and Jesse. We went in to do a test with the infamous Vista Vision camera, the big one, because you can still hear it. So I wanted to have Jesse and Emily experience it to make sure that it wouldn't throw off their performances when they would hear the camera. it actually made them feel better because there was like a white noise in the room it wasn't like dead silence in between their dialogue so they they found it like quite comforting the sound of the camera i did want to ask you about that i asked adrian brody about it around the brutalist too because it's a similar thing where it's got to be a little intense and aiden as well like having no film experience well you know what was that like for him too to have that camera in the room.

1:23:25Yeah, the brutalists, I think they shot only with a really loud camera, so they probably had them far away or something.

1:23:36But yeah, Aiden didn't, so we met him on that day, so it was an opportunity to meet him as well. And again, it was obvious that he was the right person for it and we were very nervous to meet him like we didn't know you know what he would think of us like you know testing this huge camera these actors he didn't really know who they were or what we've done before at some point he recognized jesse i think because he um he watched breaking bad he liked breaking bad and he likes horror films and stuff so he's so he realized who Jesse was and that started a great friendship and relationship. So yeah, he was totally unfazed by the camera or us or we were way more nervous meeting him.

1:24:30And yeah, again, that was a confirmation that he's the right man to bring in. And, yeah, I mean, I was nervous as well, like, you know, how it would be, you know, with someone like him. And we had an access coach on set who's, you know, experienced in these kind of situations, Elaine. And she was extremely helpful because she would walk Aiden through, you know, the process and explain to him what everything, how everything is going to be done. make sure that there weren't any things that, you know, would upset him in any way. But then in the end, it was like, you know, I put in the same trust to him that I put in Emma and Jesse, although they, you know, they come from a totally different place.

1:25:23For me, what is, you know, great about, you know, working with great actors or great people that have great presence, It's just like allowing them to come in with their idea about the characters or their instincts, you know, and then mold that instead of me, you know, trying to prescribe, you know, what it is that they have to do or what the role is. And it was the same thing with Aiden. Like he had instincts about the character. And, you know, I just allowed the same way that I allow, you know, Jesse and Emily to like bring that in and enrich, you know, the process and what's going on. It was a great experience.

1:26:04I really liked his performance. I have two quick ones for you before we go. The first one is I'm curious just to hear your thoughts on the state of movie going because, you know, Poor Things and The Favorite were pretty sizable hits at the box office. And you're one of the few auteur filmmakers who's making original material and getting audiences to come out and see the films. And we're constantly, at least on this show, debating like, what is the future of this medium and format and experience? So how do you see it right now? Well, that's a very long conversation. But what I think, I think that the divide has become greater.

1:26:50like there's a very absolute decision, I think, in which films might do well. So which films we're promoting and spending money on. And that's a decision that is made very early on. So smaller films have less of an opportunity to be seen unless there's like this, you know, like something that happens, like a certain circumstance and something catches on for some reason and doesn't need the support of a whole system, you know, like a huge cost around, you know, promoting a film. So, well, there's that, which is pretty tricky. And then there's, you know, the actual decision of people going into the cinema.

1:27:46And I hope that it's, you know, it will never change because it's such a different experience. It's just like a communal experience. You perceive films so differently, you know, watching something in the cinema. So, you know, though, of course, you know, streaming and all these things will always, you know, be popular because you can, you know, it's easier and more comfortable. I think if we're educated enough and try and preserve that aspect of films and going to the cinemas and save all the cinemas from closing down and pass that baton on to the younger generation, which is curious and is interested.

1:28:38I think that should never go and would never go it's like I don't know like saying that there won't be any live concerts of music anymore because it's easy to just listen to it you know at home it's a totally different experience and we should do whatever we can to you know retain it Yorgos we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they have seen have you seen anything that you've really enjoyed recently the last great thing yeah I mean Kelly Reinhardt's mastermind oh I love this movie tell me why you like it well I always try to tell her why I like her films and it's always embarrassing I'm sorry but I'm going to say the same things again I just find what she does so delicate but at the same time powerful like it's so subtle but then it leaves you like a very lasting strong impression and I think that's so difficult to do and it's so particular to her and how she constructs these films um yeah that every time you know watch one of her films I'm I'm terribly moved so yeah I think this is one of the great you know, filmmakers.

1:29:58And again, you know, as we talked about before, not enough people get to see her films because, you know, whatever the reason people decide to either, you know, support such a film, the level that they're going to support such a film or not. So definitely her. Yeah. It's a great recommendation. I saw your film and her film on the same day in Telluride. So a perfect match. Yorgos Antimos, thanks so much for the time and congrats. on the phone. Thank you. Thanks.

1:30:33Thanks to Yorgos Lanthimos. Thanks to Amanda. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this episode. Next week, we're drafting again Me, You, CR, 1989. You feel ready? I do. I have some personal anecdotes from the year, it's probably like 1991 to share. Because that's when some of the movies made it. You know? I see. Because I was, I couldn't stay up late. Okay. You were just a tadpole. Here I go. And then you became a real girl. Yeah, exactly. Roughly two years later. Okay. We'll check in then.